EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86770
(Kinda) first BW game - Page 3
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9505 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86770 | ||
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On August 20 2011 23:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: If you plan on learning Terran, here's a nice thread for that: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86770 Yea, don't know how I forgot about that one! | ||
Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
On August 20 2011 16:37 GGzerG wrote: Now that you have transitioned from the 2nd best game in the world, to the best game in the world ( SC2 - SC1 ) You must know that in BW, they are not called chargelots! The most common used terms with Zealots with leg speed are ....well....Zealots, Maybe speed zeals, Maybe zealots with legs, Zealots with speed, but never chargelots!!! lol  gl , nice blog regardless! keep fighting~The most common term for zealots with leg speed is speedlots lol but I agree NEVER chargelots, not in BW anyway When I was reading the BR and I saw those 4 barracks I was like "wow ballsy" hahaha Keep posting them when you think you've got a great game, looking forward to them :D Always love BR | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 20 2011 19:28 Klaca wrote: A tank + marine medic army actually completely rips through anything protoss has(aside from templar and reaver), its the strongest army in the game. so it definitely was a macro slip, with proper macro he wouldnt have been able to do much at all to your position But dont go for the double armory/flash build in liquipedia. That one is badly aged and has a much weaker push timing than the 4 base 200/200 timing terrans currently use. hmm, see that was my thought. I mean I knew storms/reavers rip through marines since I've had a similar issue in SCII with storms but I was thinking that maybe I can micro out of it, since, micro is one of the things I love about BW/SCII in general. I would think in terms of hts I can emp them using a science vessel or something but I dunno about reavers. Given, I can focus fire them with tanks but I guess this is all APM that I don't have as of yet. I think the main reason I lost that engagement wasn't the speedlots but due to the supply difference. He just had a much bigger army than I did and I had bad positioning  On August 20 2011 19:16 Bebop07 wrote: Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.' Agree. On August 21 2011 00:27 Hyde wrote: The most common term for zealots with leg speed is speedlots lol but I agree NEVER chargelots, not in BW anyway When I was reading the BR and I saw those 4 barracks I was like "wow ballsy" hahaha Keep posting them when you think you've got a great game, looking forward to them :D Always love BR haha, I think I would've actually stood that attack had I not messed up the macro at that point and left them idle for a while. Even though the BR doesn't show it, he had a much bigger army but the MMT I had ripped at least half of it down to size before losing to more speedlots+dragoons so really we kinda traded armies but with the supply difference, he came out on top Thanks everyone for the comments so far and for those links to the builds, vods, etc... Edit: Forgot to ask, anyone know how to set the function keys? I tried but I couldn't get them to work. I know how to do control groups due to SCII but couldn't get function keys to work | ||
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Bibbit
Canada5377 Posts
Also the screen hotkeys are shift (not ctrl) + f2-f4. | ||
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SarR
476 Posts
On August 20 2011 19:16 Bebop07 wrote: Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.' There is an ancient replay buried somewhere in the nether regions of the internet. One where oldschool bw pro-player Gundam does MM vs a Toss and wins. This long lost replay showcases the most skillful storm dodging ive ever seen, even to this day. Id recommend watching it but this was so long ago, I dont even know if I can ever find that replay again. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 21 2011 04:22 Bibbit wrote: As much as MM+tanks might be theoretically a strong army, I promise you it will not work TvP unless you're seriously leaps and bounds better than your opponent (except for all-ins trying to catch him before reaver/HT). Please dont do it, for your own sake. :O Also the screen hotkeys are shift (not ctrl) + f2-f4. Thanks for the screen hotkeys, I wasn't having much luck with them. As for MMT, well, I find now is the best time to try any strat before I start playing mech T against P, so, I dunno. I might try it a couple more times then switched fully to mech so that I can start winning some games XD On August 21 2011 04:42 SarR wrote: There is an ancient replay buried somewhere in the nether regions of the internet. One where oldschool bw pro-player Gundam does MM vs a Toss and wins. This long lost replay showcases the most skillful storm dodging ive ever seen, even to this day. Id recommend watching it but this was so long ago, I dont even know if I can ever find that replay again. hmm, an old replay you say? I'm very intrigued, must find it!!!!! I think MM can be viable but you probably need very high APM and have the ability to emp hts and pull back MM whenever the protoss storms. That and spreading out your units is pretty key as well, but, it sounds suicidal XD | ||
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rkffhk
474 Posts
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info yes! TvP: go mech TvZ: go bio and then have some mech in the lategame. vulture or mnm drops are also useful in the mid-game. simple as that! | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
If you want to play standard, you have to go vultures+mines+tanks, and goliaths when/if they get carriers and vessels when they get arbiters Is there any reason you chose to be Terran in BW? It's considered a difficult race. And yeah, they're just called speedlots in BW. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
Agree to everything else, thanks for commenting. BTW, congrats on your 666th post! XD | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
You didn't go MnM. You went MnT. Also, it is speedlots fool . Speedlots = faster than charge lots. It was tested already. Liquipedia is the best place. Learn how to read build orders and then study them there and do them. Also, great info on strategies at the recommended threads(Even though they are outdated they are still good for your current level of play). + Show Spoiler +Note: this appears first on google when searching "recommended threads" which is so awesome :D Reccomended threads link Also, now can you upload the replay here? We can give more in depth info. Also, BW strat thread is also a good place to post this.(However it seems you get more responses at blogs? o.o this is sad) | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
@shindigs thanks | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On August 21 2011 05:03 BigFan wrote: Thanks for the screen hotkeys, I wasn't having much luck with them. As for MMT, well, I find now is the best time to try any strat before I start playing mech T against P, so, I dunno. I might try it a couple more times then switched fully to mech so that I can start winning some games XD hmm, an old replay you say? I'm very intrigued, must find it!!!!! I think MM can be viable but you probably need very high APM and have the ability to emp hts and pull back MM whenever the protoss storms. That and spreading out your units is pretty key as well, but, it sounds suicidal XD There are newer reps of MM versus toss, but it's a pretty gimmicky style in general. Vultures are just so versatile and fearsome. They shit mini nuke mines which burrow up and run towards your enemies. They kill workers in two hits, and move faster than lightning. Oh, and did I mention that they only cost 75 minerals? It's really frightening how little a vulture has to do to be cost effective. You already get to lay the mines for free, and that's practically worth the 75 mins already. Then, if you can even get it to kill 1 enemy worker you already more than broke even. In fact, all it needs to do is tank a few dragoon hits after you have laid the mines and you are good. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 21 2011 08:45 Fontong wrote: There are newer reps of MM versus toss, but it's a pretty gimmicky style in general. Vultures are just so versatile and fearsome. They shit mini nuke mines which burrow up and run towards your enemies. They kill workers in two hits, and move faster than lightning. Oh, and did I mention that they only cost 75 minerals? It's really frightening how little a vulture has to do to be cost effective. You already get to lay the mines for free, and that's practically worth the 75 mins already. Then, if you can even get it to kill 1 enemy worker you already more than broke even. In fact, all it needs to do is tank a few dragoon hits after you have laid the mines and you are good. Definitely. Didn't actually realize that you needed 2 hits until my TvP that I just played. I'll write a battle report on that and I'm sure someone will make a mention of what I should've done | ||
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NinjoOb
Canada128 Posts
Also you can afford a 2nd factory when you do this, but I don't think you need 2 ebays. Anyway, do try this build again, it's quite fun but you should try the more standard style as well. gl | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 21 2011 11:16 NinjoOb wrote: If you want to do this mnm tank push, I think it's essential to put some turrets around your base to make sure an observer can't get in since you don't attack before obs are out. If you are scouted the toss will probably get a lot of zealots with speed (or reavers/storm) to counter your push. This (somewhat all-in) push aims to roll a protoss that is getting a quick 3rd base and still mainly has dragoons with no speed zealots. Also you can afford a 2nd factory when you do this, but I don't think you need 2 ebays. Anyway, do try this build again, it's quite fun but you should try the more standard style as well. gl Thanks, well I was kinda playing the MU similar to SCII where I go for MMMTR with quick upgrades. If I find my money going up, I usually get more structures and it so happened that spending on an e-bay seemed like the best idea. Too bad zealots only have one damage unless in SCII | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution: P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage T: first why bio is NOT the answer 1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup. T: why mech works 1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels. Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along. For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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