So, I was finally able to join a game after having issues with latency. Something must be wrong with iCCup server or something but meh. It was a TvP on Fighting Spirit v1.3. The game wasn't the most interesting since it was more of a sit back and try to learn hotkeys, defend, etc.... then get rolled over but gotta start somewhere before I can have epic games.
We both end up spawning top corner positions. I spawn on the right, him on the top left. I start the game just blocking off the entrance and work on my macro.
Went for the factory as fast as possible to have siege tank support incase of a strong push and to expand behind it.
My opponent techs to dragoons and expands as he tries to harass me with 4 of them. Of course, I was prepared for him "Good luck entering my base"
A little powering on my side and more work on saturating my exp.
My exp gets denied as he exps to the bottom corner of the map. Should've reinforced the position because it'll cost me the game.
He finally pushes but from both directions and I'm effectively squeezed between 2 decent sized forces.
I try to make a last stand but who can stand to an army of chargelots?
So, not the best game obviously and I think my macro slipped badly right before I took my 3rd because the supply difference was big when we engaged but overall was nice to know that I didn't struggle with the interface much. My game will only get better once I grind out more games and with more practice.
Lesson learned: Should've pushed out much earlier, preferably once I took my exp or soon after because he had mostly dragoons at that point and MMT would've done some major damage(maybe even take out exp) but didn't wanna risk my army early on in the game
he he, i guess you come from sc2?, MnM doesnt work on TvP Broodwar, you need Tanks and vultures, lot of vultures. But its ok man, if it your first game i hope you did had fun.
I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
you can't really go bio because storm and reavers are gonna make them MELT.
not bad at all for a first game though, I suggest you watch a few progames and give liquipedia look. Goodluck!
MM is absolutely terrible against any tech protoss chooses, (storm or reavers etc...) (1 storm or reaver shot will instantly kill up to 10 marines, they just cant stand their ground) I suggest learning strong FD (fake double factory into expand) vs. protoss. Also bio is only viable against zerg.
MnM + tank is a viable build, but it's a build that is meant to push and kill protoss before he gets reaver or high templar out. Once Protoss reach that tech, it's much better off for Terran to go Vulture/Tank composition(Mech)
On August 20 2011 15:10 Kipsate wrote: Don't give up btw, wins are much more satisfying in BW then in SC2!.(and mentally draining as fuck)
1rax FE is hard to pull of on some maps and on D alot of toss like to go early 2gate or so, so I suggest you go with a siege expand or mine expand.
Nah, I don't give up that easily, otherwise I would've thrown my comp out the window once I started playing Zerg in S1 in SCII hmm, I think against P, I'll be going with siege expand. That was the plan there and I think it worked well
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
you can't really go bio because storm and reavers are gonna make them MELT.
not bad at all for a first game though, I suggest you watch a few progames and give liquipedia look. Goodluck!
Fair enough, ya, storm is scary stuff even in SCII, getting stormed is not fun XD Any link to some progamer videos, maybe MSL or OSL finals, etc...? I guess youtube is the best place?
On August 20 2011 15:10 Kipsate wrote: Don't give up btw, wins are much more satisfying in BW then in SC2!.(and mentally draining as fuck)
1rax FE is hard to pull of on some maps and on D alot of toss like to go early 2gate or so, so I suggest you go with a siege expand or mine expand.
Nah, I don't give up that easily, otherwise I would've thrown my comp out the window once I started playing Zerg in S1 in SCII hmm, I think against P, I'll be going with siege expand. That was the plan there and I think it worked well
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
you can't really go bio because storm and reavers are gonna make them MELT.
not bad at all for a first game though, I suggest you watch a few progames and give liquipedia look. Goodluck!
Fair enough, ya, storm is scary stuff even in SCII, getting stormed is not fun XD Any link to some progamer videos, maybe MSL or OSL finals, etc...? I guess youtube is the best place?
I don't recommend OSL/MSL finals for learning general play, there's usually a lot of mindgames going on there. Nevake channel on youtube has thousands of progames on it, here are a few off the top of my head.
Thanks for the comments. I plan to work on spending my money more and I'll keep doing more battle reports but hopefully they'll be more interesting XD As for OSL final games, etc... I mostly wanted to see how pros play the MUs and their compositions. That and I find BW games interesting to watch so why not watch them? I'll try to find that type-b vs FlaSh don_kyuhote .
On August 20 2011 15:51 BigFan wrote: ^^hehe, maybe
Thanks for the comments. I plan to work on spending my money more and I'll keep doing more battle reports but hopefully they'll be more interesting XD As for OSL final games, etc... I mostly wanted to see how pros play the MUs and their compositions. That and I find BW games interesting to watch so why not watch them? I'll try to find that type-b vs FlaSh don_kyuhote .
I'll be reading.
And you dont have to find the game, Gann1 embedded the VOD in his post. ^^
your latency problems are probably port forwarding issues hmm, im on the run right now so i can't link you, but if you search you should be able to find some fixes~
;O That was you I played?! No, I kid, I kid I played someone that had that playstyle though Maybe we can play a match sometime ^^ And what everyone else says is true, every single win is satisfying, and worth it all I had to play atleast a hundred or so to get my first.
Now that you have transitioned from the 2nd best game in the world, to the best game in the world ( SC2 - SC1 ) You must know that in BW, they are not called chargelots! The most common used terms with Zealots with leg speed are ....well....Zealots, Maybe speed zeals, Maybe zealots with legs, Zealots with speed, but never chargelots!!! lol gl , nice blog regardless! keep fighting~
^^ ah, come on, can't I call them chargelots, pretty please? jk jk, I just wasn't sure what there name was so I called them whatever they were called in SCII
@X10A hehe, doubt I played you otherwise I would've remembered the name. We should play sometime though @aeoliant I wouldn't be surprised XD I thought if I went for MM with stim and good positioning/micro, I'll be able to do well enough but not in that case. I'll be aiming for mech in the near future.
Maybe it is, I dunno but the consensus seems to be that Terran is hardest at the lowest levels and that Protoss is easiest Thanks for the link and thanks to everyone for the comments so far.
Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.'
A tank + marine medic army actually completely rips through anything protoss has(aside from templar and reaver), its the strongest army in the game. so it definitely was a macro slip, with proper macro he wouldnt have been able to do much at all to your position
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
But dont go for the double armory/flash build in liquipedia. That one is badly aged and has a much weaker push timing than the 4 base 200/200 timing terrans currently use.
On August 20 2011 16:37 GGzerG wrote: Now that you have transitioned from the 2nd best game in the world, to the best game in the world ( SC2 - SC1 ) You must know that in BW, they are not called chargelots! The most common used terms with Zealots with leg speed are ....well....Zealots, Maybe speed zeals, Maybe zealots with legs, Zealots with speed, but never chargelots!!! lol gl , nice blog regardless! keep fighting~
... SPEEDLOTS is what they are called. Coz' they be on speed.
Also, you might want to watch some older Day[9] videos on BW, the builds are somewhat out of date, but they're still good, and he explains the essentials: http://day9.tv/archives/page/8/
On August 20 2011 16:37 GGzerG wrote: Now that you have transitioned from the 2nd best game in the world, to the best game in the world ( SC2 - SC1 ) You must know that in BW, they are not called chargelots! The most common used terms with Zealots with leg speed are ....well....Zealots, Maybe speed zeals, Maybe zealots with legs, Zealots with speed, but never chargelots!!! lol gl , nice blog regardless! keep fighting~
The most common term for zealots with leg speed is speedlots lol but I agree NEVER chargelots, not in BW anyway
When I was reading the BR and I saw those 4 barracks I was like "wow ballsy" hahaha Keep posting them when you think you've got a great game, looking forward to them :D Always love BR
On August 20 2011 19:28 Klaca wrote: A tank + marine medic army actually completely rips through anything protoss has(aside from templar and reaver), its the strongest army in the game. so it definitely was a macro slip, with proper macro he wouldnt have been able to do much at all to your position
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
But dont go for the double armory/flash build in liquipedia. That one is badly aged and has a much weaker push timing than the 4 base 200/200 timing terrans currently use.
hmm, see that was my thought. I mean I knew storms/reavers rip through marines since I've had a similar issue in SCII with storms but I was thinking that maybe I can micro out of it, since, micro is one of the things I love about BW/SCII in general. I would think in terms of hts I can emp them using a science vessel or something but I dunno about reavers. Given, I can focus fire them with tanks but I guess this is all APM that I don't have as of yet. I think the main reason I lost that engagement wasn't the speedlots but due to the supply difference. He just had a much bigger army than I did and I had bad positioning
On August 20 2011 19:16 Bebop07 wrote: Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.'
On August 20 2011 16:37 GGzerG wrote: Now that you have transitioned from the 2nd best game in the world, to the best game in the world ( SC2 - SC1 ) You must know that in BW, they are not called chargelots! The most common used terms with Zealots with leg speed are ....well....Zealots, Maybe speed zeals, Maybe zealots with legs, Zealots with speed, but never chargelots!!! lol gl , nice blog regardless! keep fighting~
The most common term for zealots with leg speed is speedlots lol but I agree NEVER chargelots, not in BW anyway
When I was reading the BR and I saw those 4 barracks I was like "wow ballsy" hahaha Keep posting them when you think you've got a great game, looking forward to them :D Always love BR
haha, I think I would've actually stood that attack had I not messed up the macro at that point and left them idle for a while. Even though the BR doesn't show it, he had a much bigger army but the MMT I had ripped at least half of it down to size before losing to more speedlots+dragoons so really we kinda traded armies but with the supply difference, he came out on top
Thanks everyone for the comments so far and for those links to the builds, vods, etc...
Edit: Forgot to ask, anyone know how to set the function keys? I tried but I couldn't get them to work. I know how to do control groups due to SCII but couldn't get function keys to work
As much as MM+tanks might be theoretically a strong army, I promise you it will not work TvP unless you're seriously leaps and bounds better than your opponent (except for all-ins trying to catch him before reaver/HT). Please dont do it, for your own sake. :O
Also the screen hotkeys are shift (not ctrl) + f2-f4.
On August 20 2011 19:16 Bebop07 wrote: Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.'
There is an ancient replay buried somewhere in the nether regions of the internet. One where oldschool bw pro-player Gundam does MM vs a Toss and wins. This long lost replay showcases the most skillful storm dodging ive ever seen, even to this day. Id recommend watching it but this was so long ago, I dont even know if I can ever find that replay again.
On August 21 2011 04:22 Bibbit wrote: As much as MM+tanks might be theoretically a strong army, I promise you it will not work TvP unless you're seriously leaps and bounds better than your opponent (except for all-ins trying to catch him before reaver/HT). Please dont do it, for your own sake. :O
Also the screen hotkeys are shift (not ctrl) + f2-f4.
Thanks for the screen hotkeys, I wasn't having much luck with them. As for MMT, well, I find now is the best time to try any strat before I start playing mech T against P, so, I dunno. I might try it a couple more times then switched fully to mech so that I can start winning some games XD
On August 20 2011 19:16 Bebop07 wrote: Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.'
There is an ancient replay buried somewhere in the nether regions of the internet. One where oldschool bw pro-player Gundam does MM vs a Toss and wins. This long lost replay showcases the most skillful storm dodging ive ever seen, even to this day. Id recommend watching it but this was so long ago, I dont even know if I can ever find that replay again.
hmm, an old replay you say? I'm very intrigued, must find it!!!!! I think MM can be viable but you probably need very high APM and have the ability to emp hts and pull back MM whenever the protoss storms. That and spreading out your units is pretty key as well, but, it sounds suicidal XD
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
yes!
TvP: go mech
TvZ: go bio and then have some mech in the lategame. vulture or mnm drops are also useful in the mid-game.
No reason really, same reason I decided to play Terran in SCII for S3. I like the harder race(late game TvsZ in SCII as an example) rather than rolling an easier race. I find it pushes me to play better to win than to sit back and relax. That and as I recall, Terran has the most micro in both BW and SCII and I enjoy more micro than macro, so, why not? Agree to everything else, thanks for commenting. BTW, congrats on your 666th post! XD
Make more battle reports :3. I want to subscribe lol. Any chance you can pm me on TL each time you make a new battle report? XD. Also, being a protoss I would've done the same thing your opponent did. I don't know if you know this but, sieged tanks can't shoot back at units attacking it on melee range so zealots counter that ez pz and marines well... try 2 marines vs 1 zealot. I'm sure you'll see that zealots are vastly superior to them both when controlled well and in high numbers(you actually already did xD).
You didn't go MnM. You went MnT. Also, it is speedlots fool . Speedlots = faster than charge lots. It was tested already. Liquipedia is the best place. Learn how to read build orders and then study them there and do them. Also, great info on strategies at the recommended threads(Even though they are outdated they are still good for your current level of play). + Show Spoiler +
Note: this appears first on google when searching "recommended threads" which is so awesome :D
Also, now can you upload the replay here? We can give more in depth info. Also, BW strat thread is also a good place to post this.(However it seems you get more responses at blogs? o.o this is sad)
@3FFA haha, will do. I've just been watching BW videos of Flash vs. Jaedong. Flash is such a beast with Terran! XD Yep, well aware that tanks can't attack at close range. Thanks for the link but I dunno if I wanna upload the replay, so embarrassing XD @shindigs thanks
On August 21 2011 04:22 Bibbit wrote: As much as MM+tanks might be theoretically a strong army, I promise you it will not work TvP unless you're seriously leaps and bounds better than your opponent (except for all-ins trying to catch him before reaver/HT). Please dont do it, for your own sake. :O
Also the screen hotkeys are shift (not ctrl) + f2-f4.
Thanks for the screen hotkeys, I wasn't having much luck with them. As for MMT, well, I find now is the best time to try any strat before I start playing mech T against P, so, I dunno. I might try it a couple more times then switched fully to mech so that I can start winning some games XD
On August 20 2011 19:16 Bebop07 wrote: Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.'
There is an ancient replay buried somewhere in the nether regions of the internet. One where oldschool bw pro-player Gundam does MM vs a Toss and wins. This long lost replay showcases the most skillful storm dodging ive ever seen, even to this day. Id recommend watching it but this was so long ago, I dont even know if I can ever find that replay again.
hmm, an old replay you say? I'm very intrigued, must find it!!!!! I think MM can be viable but you probably need very high APM and have the ability to emp hts and pull back MM whenever the protoss storms. That and spreading out your units is pretty key as well, but, it sounds suicidal XD
There are newer reps of MM versus toss, but it's a pretty gimmicky style in general.
Vultures are just so versatile and fearsome. They shit mini nuke mines which burrow up and run towards your enemies. They kill workers in two hits, and move faster than lightning. Oh, and did I mention that they only cost 75 minerals? It's really frightening how little a vulture has to do to be cost effective. You already get to lay the mines for free, and that's practically worth the 75 mins already. Then, if you can even get it to kill 1 enemy worker you already more than broke even. In fact, all it needs to do is tank a few dragoon hits after you have laid the mines and you are good.
On August 21 2011 04:22 Bibbit wrote: As much as MM+tanks might be theoretically a strong army, I promise you it will not work TvP unless you're seriously leaps and bounds better than your opponent (except for all-ins trying to catch him before reaver/HT). Please dont do it, for your own sake. :O
Also the screen hotkeys are shift (not ctrl) + f2-f4.
Thanks for the screen hotkeys, I wasn't having much luck with them. As for MMT, well, I find now is the best time to try any strat before I start playing mech T against P, so, I dunno. I might try it a couple more times then switched fully to mech so that I can start winning some games XD
On August 21 2011 04:42 SarR wrote:
On August 20 2011 19:16 Bebop07 wrote: Sort of an obvious note but..one glaring difference between bio in sc2 and bw is storm literally kills that shit. Like, they die from it one storm. And in SC2 its really easy to kite and run out of it. Doesn't work so well in bw, although somewhat possible. Not long term though. Just a way to think of it instead of just 'it doesn't work.'
There is an ancient replay buried somewhere in the nether regions of the internet. One where oldschool bw pro-player Gundam does MM vs a Toss and wins. This long lost replay showcases the most skillful storm dodging ive ever seen, even to this day. Id recommend watching it but this was so long ago, I dont even know if I can ever find that replay again.
hmm, an old replay you say? I'm very intrigued, must find it!!!!! I think MM can be viable but you probably need very high APM and have the ability to emp hts and pull back MM whenever the protoss storms. That and spreading out your units is pretty key as well, but, it sounds suicidal XD
There are newer reps of MM versus toss, but it's a pretty gimmicky style in general.
Vultures are just so versatile and fearsome. They shit mini nuke mines which burrow up and run towards your enemies. They kill workers in two hits, and move faster than lightning. Oh, and did I mention that they only cost 75 minerals? It's really frightening how little a vulture has to do to be cost effective. You already get to lay the mines for free, and that's practically worth the 75 mins already. Then, if you can even get it to kill 1 enemy worker you already more than broke even. In fact, all it needs to do is tank a few dragoon hits after you have laid the mines and you are good.
Definitely. Didn't actually realize that you needed 2 hits until my TvP that I just played. I'll write a battle report on that and I'm sure someone will make a mention of what I should've done
If you want to do this mnm tank push, I think it's essential to put some turrets around your base to make sure an observer can't get in since you don't attack before obs are out. If you are scouted the toss will probably get a lot of zealots with speed (or reavers/storm) to counter your push. This (somewhat all-in) push aims to roll a protoss that is getting a quick 3rd base and still mainly has dragoons with no speed zealots.
Also you can afford a 2nd factory when you do this, but I don't think you need 2 ebays. Anyway, do try this build again, it's quite fun but you should try the more standard style as well. gl
On August 21 2011 11:16 NinjoOb wrote: If you want to do this mnm tank push, I think it's essential to put some turrets around your base to make sure an observer can't get in since you don't attack before obs are out. If you are scouted the toss will probably get a lot of zealots with speed (or reavers/storm) to counter your push. This (somewhat all-in) push aims to roll a protoss that is getting a quick 3rd base and still mainly has dragoons with no speed zealots.
Also you can afford a 2nd factory when you do this, but I don't think you need 2 ebays. Anyway, do try this build again, it's quite fun but you should try the more standard style as well. gl
Thanks, well I was kinda playing the MU similar to SCII where I go for MMMTR with quick upgrades. If I find my money going up, I usually get more structures and it so happened that spending on an e-bay seemed like the best idea. Too bad zealots only have one damage unless in SCII
One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
--MM in sc2 have 5-15 more hp (upgrade dependent) --Marauders tank hits super well, can eat storms like a champion, and slow down zealots and archons
I'm guessing you already realize that your macro was bad (money went through the roooooof) but your opening build was surprisingly not THAT bad (look up the Fake Double on liquipedia) and it seems like you had fun
Thanks, ya, I had fun. I just played a couple more games. TvsT and ZvsT, got rolled in both. Was dropped several times in TvsT and in ZvsT, he just made a large marine+tank army, stimmed and took me out. I did get some lurkers but after losing my exp and he had too many science vessels, should've gotten scourge much sooner -__-;
On August 20 2011 19:28 Klaca wrote: A tank + marine medic army actually completely rips through anything protoss has(aside from templar and reaver), its the strongest army in the game. so it definitely was a macro slip, with proper macro he wouldnt have been able to do much at all to your position
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
But dont go for the double armory/flash build in liquipedia. That one is badly aged and has a much weaker push timing than the 4 base 200/200 timing terrans currently use.
hmm, see that was my thought. I mean I knew storms/reavers rip through marines since I've had a similar issue in SCII with storms but I was thinking that maybe I can micro out of it, since, micro is one of the things I love about BW/SCII in general. I would think in terms of hts I can emp them using a science vessel or something but I dunno about reavers. Given, I can focus fire them with tanks but I guess this is all APM that I don't have as of yet. I think the main reason I lost that engagement wasn't the speedlots but due to the supply difference. He just had a much bigger army than I did and I had bad positioning
The thing about storm dodging is that it has very little to do with reaction speed. If you begin to move your units the moment you see the storm appear over your units, you're probably already screwed, especially with a bio force. The trick is to figure out what the most likely location is that they'll storm, and to move out of there pronto. Proper unit spread is also quite effective.
Pre-reaver and storm, a mnm/tank force can be a scary thing for a protoss to deal with. mnm have pretty good dps, so they take out shields very fast. This leaves the tanks free to dish out the hurt on the dragoons and zealots. mnm also rape slowlots like nobody's business. But yeah, as people have already mentioned, its probably better to stick to a mech composition when playing TvP, especially if you're just starting out.
On August 20 2011 19:28 Klaca wrote: A tank + marine medic army actually completely rips through anything protoss has(aside from templar and reaver), its the strongest army in the game. so it definitely was a macro slip, with proper macro he wouldnt have been able to do much at all to your position
On August 20 2011 15:09 BigFan wrote: I saw mass vultures+tank in TvsP on another stream but is it really that bad with MM? thought I'll give it a try to see how it goes but with my macro slipping, it wasn't the best idea XD Thanks for the comments, I'll look at that armory build and check liquipedia to see if there are any more usual info
But dont go for the double armory/flash build in liquipedia. That one is badly aged and has a much weaker push timing than the 4 base 200/200 timing terrans currently use.
hmm, see that was my thought. I mean I knew storms/reavers rip through marines since I've had a similar issue in SCII with storms but I was thinking that maybe I can micro out of it, since, micro is one of the things I love about BW/SCII in general. I would think in terms of hts I can emp them using a science vessel or something but I dunno about reavers. Given, I can focus fire them with tanks but I guess this is all APM that I don't have as of yet. I think the main reason I lost that engagement wasn't the speedlots but due to the supply difference. He just had a much bigger army than I did and I had bad positioning
The thing about storm dodging is that it has very little to do with reaction speed. If you begin to move your units the moment you see the storm appear over your units, you're probably already screwed, especially with a bio force. The trick is to figure out what the most likely location is that they'll storm, and to move out of there pronto. Proper unit spread is also quite effective.
Pre-reaver and storm, a mnm/tank force can be a scary thing for a protoss to deal with. mnm have pretty good dps, so they take out shields very fast. This leaves the tanks free to dish out the hurt on the dragoons and zealots. mnm also rape slowlots like nobody's business. But yeah, as people have already mentioned, its probably better to stick to a mech composition when playing TvP, especially if you're just starting out.
Definitely agree with everything you said. I'm sticking to mech atm and will try bio in the near future
On August 21 2011 14:09 BigFan wrote: Isn't that where all the fun lies? ;P
So true...I swear to God, there is nothing sexier than raping a lurker field with stim marines or raping fifteen zealots charging at you in a straight line.
On August 21 2011 14:09 BigFan wrote: Isn't that where all the fun lies? ;P
So true...I swear to God, there is nothing sexier than raping a lurker field with stim marines or raping fifteen zealots charging at you in a straight line.
haha, ya, I agree. Watching the zealots all disappear with MnM is wonderful to the eye
On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote: One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.
"P:" 1: Yes. 2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines. 3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult 4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well
"T: first why bio is NOT the answer" 1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high. 2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build 3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps 4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too. 6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim. 7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out. 8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.
"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one 1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank. 2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway. 3/4/5/6/7 your best points 8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small). 9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.
I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.
On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote: One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.
"P:" 1: Yes. 2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines. 3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult 4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well
"T: first why bio is NOT the answer" 1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high. 2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build 3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps 4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too. 6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim. 7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out. 8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.
"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one 1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank. 2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway. 3/4/5/6/7 your best points 8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small). 9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.
I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.
1. I never once mentioned anything about DPS. I mentioned damage, and my points about mech damage still hold. DPS counts for shit when marines only live for 2-3 seconds anyway.
2. Sure, dragoons don't deal as much damage vs marines as other units. Dragoons are good against marines because of their speed/range. Zealots definitely do a lot of damage, though.
3. The speed of units has to do with their harass potential and micro potential. Bio has almost none of both whereas vultures can kite speedzeals and harass probes very effectively. Obviously speed will always be a bonus.
4. Yes, firebats are good against zealots, but they are, for all intents and purposes, useless: they're only seen in cheese.
5. Try healing marines with medics when speedzealots are attacking them.
6. Bio IS slow. Much slower than vultures. Siege tanks are slow, yes, but really the speed of vultures is mostly all that matters. Of course the dilemma comes from stimming. If you stim vs Protoss it often just means you die faster.
7. Basic units WILL kill bio, even with minimal micro. Just look at the number of all-ins with biomech by Terrans recently that Protoss players just crush with nothing but dragoons. Even with vultures thrown in for spidermines the Terran will still lose.
Bisu has shown some pretty good examples of this in his recent games vs T.
On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote: One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.
"P:" 1: Yes. 2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines. 3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult 4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well
"T: first why bio is NOT the answer" 1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high. 2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build 3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps 4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too. 6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim. 7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out. 8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.
"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one 1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank. 2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway. 3/4/5/6/7 your best points 8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small). 9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.
I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.
1. I never once mentioned anything about DPS. I mentioned damage, and my points about mech damage still hold. DPS counts for shit when marines only live for 2-3 seconds anyway.
2. Sure, dragoons don't deal as much damage vs marines as other units. Dragoons are good against marines because of their speed/range. Zealots definitely do a lot of damage, though.
3. The speed of units has to do with their harass potential and micro potential. Bio has almost none of both whereas vultures can kite speedzeals and harass probes very effectively. Obviously speed will always be a bonus.
4. Yes, firebats are good against zealots, but they are, for all intents and purposes, useless: they're only seen in cheese.
5. Try healing marines with medics when speedzealots are attacking them.
6. Bio IS slow. Much slower than vultures. Siege tanks are slow, yes, but really the speed of vultures is mostly all that matters. Of course the dilemma comes from stimming. If you stim vs Protoss it often just means you die faster.
7. Basic units WILL kill bio, even with minimal micro. Just look at the number of all-ins with biomech by Terrans recently that Protoss players just crush with nothing but dragoons. Even with vultures thrown in for spidermines the Terran will still lose.
Bisu has shown some pretty good examples of this in his recent games vs T.
This is flat out wrong. You cant kite upgraded bio with goons, their attack animation is much too slow compared to that of rines, together with low damage makes it very ineffective. And zeals vs marine medics? Also terrible unit in the army sizes that are present in mid game. Its like trying to kill mnm with speedlings, except zealots are slower and deal less damage
The confusion regarding this is what you usually see in a game: what you see is unupgraded rines against slowlots and goons&rangegoons. In this situation rines arent so good. But the situation we are talking about is with u238 and stim, and the larger number of units which benefits mnm more than either goons or zealots.
On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote: One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.
"P:" 1: Yes. 2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines. 3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult 4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well
"T: first why bio is NOT the answer" 1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high. 2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build 3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps 4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too. 6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim. 7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out. 8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.
"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one 1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank. 2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway. 3/4/5/6/7 your best points 8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small). 9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.
I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.
1. I never once mentioned anything about DPS. I mentioned damage, and my points about mech damage still hold. DPS counts for shit when marines only live for 2-3 seconds anyway.
2. Sure, dragoons don't deal as much damage vs marines as other units. Dragoons are good against marines because of their speed/range. Zealots definitely do a lot of damage, though.
3. The speed of units has to do with their harass potential and micro potential. Bio has almost none of both whereas vultures can kite speedzeals and harass probes very effectively. Obviously speed will always be a bonus.
4. Yes, firebats are good against zealots, but they are, for all intents and purposes, useless: they're only seen in cheese.
5. Try healing marines with medics when speedzealots are attacking them.
6. Bio IS slow. Much slower than vultures. Siege tanks are slow, yes, but really the speed of vultures is mostly all that matters. Of course the dilemma comes from stimming. If you stim vs Protoss it often just means you die faster.
7. Basic units WILL kill bio, even with minimal micro. Just look at the number of all-ins with biomech by Terrans recently that Protoss players just crush with nothing but dragoons. Even with vultures thrown in for spidermines the Terran will still lose.
Bisu has shown some pretty good examples of this in his recent games vs T.
This is flat out wrong. You cant kite upgraded bio with goons, their attack animation is much too slow compared to that of rines, together with low damage makes it very ineffective. And zeals vs marine medics? Also terrible unit in the army sizes that are present in mid game. Its like trying to kill mnm with speedlings, except zealots are slower and deal less damage
The confusion regarding this is what you usually see in a game: what you see is unupgraded rines against slowlots and goons&rangegoons. In this situation rines arent so good. But the situation we are talking about is with u238 and stim, and the larger number of units which benefits mnm more than either goons or zealots.
You're right. I didn't have much MnM in that game and my macro was the main reason
On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote: One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.
"P:" 1: Yes. 2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines. 3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult 4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well
"T: first why bio is NOT the answer" 1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high. 2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build 3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps 4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too. 6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim. 7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out. 8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.
"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one 1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank. 2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway. 3/4/5/6/7 your best points 8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small). 9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.
I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.
1. I never once mentioned anything about DPS. I mentioned damage, and my points about mech damage still hold. DPS counts for shit when marines only live for 2-3 seconds anyway.
2. Sure, dragoons don't deal as much damage vs marines as other units. Dragoons are good against marines because of their speed/range. Zealots definitely do a lot of damage, though.
3. The speed of units has to do with their harass potential and micro potential. Bio has almost none of both whereas vultures can kite speedzeals and harass probes very effectively. Obviously speed will always be a bonus.
4. Yes, firebats are good against zealots, but they are, for all intents and purposes, useless: they're only seen in cheese.
5. Try healing marines with medics when speedzealots are attacking them.
6. Bio IS slow. Much slower than vultures. Siege tanks are slow, yes, but really the speed of vultures is mostly all that matters. Of course the dilemma comes from stimming. If you stim vs Protoss it often just means you die faster.
7. Basic units WILL kill bio, even with minimal micro. Just look at the number of all-ins with biomech by Terrans recently that Protoss players just crush with nothing but dragoons. Even with vultures thrown in for spidermines the Terran will still lose.
Bisu has shown some pretty good examples of this in his recent games vs T.
This is flat out wrong. You cant kite upgraded bio with goons, their attack animation is much too slow compared to that of rines, together with low damage makes it very ineffective. And zeals vs marine medics? Also terrible unit in the army sizes that are present in mid game. Its like trying to kill mnm with speedlings, except zealots are slower and deal less damage
The confusion regarding this is what you usually see in a game: what you see is unupgraded rines against slowlots and goons&rangegoons. In this situation rines arent so good. But the situation we are talking about is with u238 and stim, and the larger number of units which benefits mnm more than either goons or zealots.
Actually Bisu did exactly that against stimmed marines, in his game against Baby (or it might have been bogus) a couple of months ago.
Both players attempted a biomech all in and they were crushed by pure dragoon. One of them, I can't remember which, used stim.
On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote: One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.
"P:" 1: Yes. 2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines. 3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult 4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well
"T: first why bio is NOT the answer" 1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high. 2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build 3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps 4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too. 6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim. 7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out. 8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.
"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one 1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank. 2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway. 3/4/5/6/7 your best points 8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small). 9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.
I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.
1. I never once mentioned anything about DPS. I mentioned damage, and my points about mech damage still hold. DPS counts for shit when marines only live for 2-3 seconds anyway.
2. Sure, dragoons don't deal as much damage vs marines as other units. Dragoons are good against marines because of their speed/range. Zealots definitely do a lot of damage, though.
3. The speed of units has to do with their harass potential and micro potential. Bio has almost none of both whereas vultures can kite speedzeals and harass probes very effectively. Obviously speed will always be a bonus.
4. Yes, firebats are good against zealots, but they are, for all intents and purposes, useless: they're only seen in cheese.
5. Try healing marines with medics when speedzealots are attacking them.
6. Bio IS slow. Much slower than vultures. Siege tanks are slow, yes, but really the speed of vultures is mostly all that matters. Of course the dilemma comes from stimming. If you stim vs Protoss it often just means you die faster.
7. Basic units WILL kill bio, even with minimal micro. Just look at the number of all-ins with biomech by Terrans recently that Protoss players just crush with nothing but dragoons. Even with vultures thrown in for spidermines the Terran will still lose.
Bisu has shown some pretty good examples of this in his recent games vs T.
This is flat out wrong. You cant kite upgraded bio with goons, their attack animation is much too slow compared to that of rines, together with low damage makes it very ineffective. And zeals vs marine medics? Also terrible unit in the army sizes that are present in mid game. Its like trying to kill mnm with speedlings, except zealots are slower and deal less damage
The confusion regarding this is what you usually see in a game: what you see is unupgraded rines against slowlots and goons&rangegoons. In this situation rines arent so good. But the situation we are talking about is with u238 and stim, and the larger number of units which benefits mnm more than either goons or zealots.
You're right. I didn't have much MnM in that game and my macro was the main reason
Yup. You should try playing some big game hunters, if you never have before. If you do, you won't have to take our word for anything. Yes, you can improve efficiently playing 1v1 on iccup, but itll be very difficult for a long time. On the other hand, BGH players are not that good and are mostly casual players as well. You'll have a low pressure environment to practice unit combinations and macro. I also recommend playing blood bath games, because it'll help you a lot with your micro. Since you don't need a specific strategy to be successful against normal players, it'll really help you to think on your feet. Man, I would totally be down to play some games with you too. I always loved playing blood bath and BGH in addition to regular ICUP games.
On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote: One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.
Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:
P: 1. Protoss units have a TON of HP. 2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example) 3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster 4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage
T: first why bio is NOT the answer
1. Marines have too little HP 2. firebats are more or less useless 3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal 4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen 5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once 6. Bio is too damn slow 7. Little harass potential 8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.
T: why mech works
1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio. 2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio. 3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals) 4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly. 5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers. 6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this. 7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies. 8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch 9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.
Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.
For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.
Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.
"P:" 1: Yes. 2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines. 3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult 4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well
"T: first why bio is NOT the answer" 1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high. 2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build 3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps 4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too. 6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim. 7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out. 8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.
"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one 1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank. 2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway. 3/4/5/6/7 your best points 8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small). 9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.
I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.
1. I never once mentioned anything about DPS. I mentioned damage, and my points about mech damage still hold. DPS counts for shit when marines only live for 2-3 seconds anyway.
2. Sure, dragoons don't deal as much damage vs marines as other units. Dragoons are good against marines because of their speed/range. Zealots definitely do a lot of damage, though.
3. The speed of units has to do with their harass potential and micro potential. Bio has almost none of both whereas vultures can kite speedzeals and harass probes very effectively. Obviously speed will always be a bonus.
4. Yes, firebats are good against zealots, but they are, for all intents and purposes, useless: they're only seen in cheese.
5. Try healing marines with medics when speedzealots are attacking them.
6. Bio IS slow. Much slower than vultures. Siege tanks are slow, yes, but really the speed of vultures is mostly all that matters. Of course the dilemma comes from stimming. If you stim vs Protoss it often just means you die faster.
7. Basic units WILL kill bio, even with minimal micro. Just look at the number of all-ins with biomech by Terrans recently that Protoss players just crush with nothing but dragoons. Even with vultures thrown in for spidermines the Terran will still lose.
Bisu has shown some pretty good examples of this in his recent games vs T.
This is flat out wrong. You cant kite upgraded bio with goons, their attack animation is much too slow compared to that of rines, together with low damage makes it very ineffective. And zeals vs marine medics? Also terrible unit in the army sizes that are present in mid game. Its like trying to kill mnm with speedlings, except zealots are slower and deal less damage
The confusion regarding this is what you usually see in a game: what you see is unupgraded rines against slowlots and goons&rangegoons. In this situation rines arent so good. But the situation we are talking about is with u238 and stim, and the larger number of units which benefits mnm more than either goons or zealots.
You're right. I didn't have much MnM in that game and my macro was the main reason
Yup. You should try playing some big game hunters, if you never have before. If you do, you won't have to take our word for anything. Yes, you can improve efficiently playing 1v1 on iccup, but itll be very difficult for a long time. On the other hand, BGH players are not that good and are mostly casual players as well. You'll have a low pressure environment to practice unit combinations and macro. I also recommend playing blood bath games, because it'll help you a lot with your micro. Since you don't need a specific strategy to be successful against normal players, it'll really help you to think on your feet. Man, I would totally be down to play some games with you too. I always loved playing blood bath and BGH in addition to regular ICUP games.
This. PM me for Blood Bath games if you ever itch for one and don't care about me not having the AH.(I have a mac which I have stated from my first post here and no, macs can't open/use .exes unless they are a special "intel" mac which I don't have)
Man, I want to start playing Brood War as well. When I'm in Master league I'll probably get bored with SC2 and almost quit. Then I'll start the challenge of BW. Can't wait!
On August 22 2011 15:00 Nible wrote: Man, I want to start playing Brood War as well. When I'm in Master league I'll probably get bored with SC2 and almost quit. Then I'll start the challenge of BW. Can't wait!
I'm only in gold in SCII, almost plat since I've been winning >50% of my matches against Plat but was finding some matches were becoming stale so I took a break. Anyways, you can still play BW even if you are still playing SCII
On August 22 2011 15:00 Nible wrote: Man, I want to start playing Brood War as well. When I'm in Master league I'll probably get bored with SC2 and almost quit. Then I'll start the challenge of BW. Can't wait!
I'm only in gold in SCII, almost plat since I've been winning >50% of my matches against Plat but was finding some matches were becoming stale so I took a break. Anyways, you can still play BW even if you are still playing SCII
Exactly what I want to hear, man! Haha, I'll probably be unable to resist the temptation any longer in a near future! If only school didn't exist...
in which timezone do you live? I'd love to play some games. I'm P but can play some decent D- level ZvT as well if needed. I played like 10 games for the first time last iccup season and managed to get from D- back to D so... I'm in no way better (I can even host! :D)
+as it has been mentioned before, OSL/MSL Finals are probably not good to learn standard play, that goes tenfold for Jaedong v. Flash games afaik. They mindgame each other so hard most of the time that most people don't even get what exactly is happening.
On August 22 2011 15:00 Nible wrote: Man, I want to start playing Brood War as well. When I'm in Master league I'll probably get bored with SC2 and almost quit. Then I'll start the challenge of BW. Can't wait!
I'm only in gold in SCII, almost plat since I've been winning >50% of my matches against Plat but was finding some matches were becoming stale so I took a break. Anyways, you can still play BW even if you are still playing SCII
Exactly what I want to hear, man! Haha, I'll probably be unable to resist the temptation any longer in a near future! If only school didn't exist...
Education is important! Main reason that I'm gonna cut down my play time once Sept hit, but, wanted to get some BW in before then
On August 22 2011 19:46 onlinerobbe wrote: in which timezone do you live? I'd love to play some games. I'm P but can play some decent D- level ZvT as well if needed. I played like 10 games for the first time last iccup season and managed to get from D- back to D so... I'm in no way better (I can even host! :D)
+as it has been mentioned before, OSL/MSL Finals are probably not good to learn standard play, that goes tenfold for Jaedong v. Flash games afaik. They mindgame each other so hard most of the time that most people don't even get what exactly is happening.
Nah, FLASH fighting!!!!! I'm in EST but usually log in around 6pm EST or so. I stick around the op teamliquid channel either trying to find a game to join or play with someone there. If you are on, I don't mind if we get some games going. My id is Golden_Phoenix(hehe)
well, weekdays I can be online up until 1 am usually, not much more ^^ just got roflstomped by some terran, was not funny (kidding, it was fun but I had no chance he didn't catch my 3rd base tho!)
edit: that'd be 7pm for you ^^ so 1-2 games not more :/
On August 23 2011 07:42 onlinerobbe wrote: well, weekdays I can be online up until 1 am usually, not much more ^^ just got roflstomped by some terran, was not funny (kidding, it was fun but I had no chance he didn't catch my 3rd base tho!)
edit: that'd be 7pm for you ^^ so 1-2 games not more :/
nice, nice. I'll try to be on at around 6ish on weekdays but can't guarantee it. My life is soo busy right now XD
EPT
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