(Kinda) first BW game - Page 4

On August 21 2011 01:10 BigFan wrote:

hmm, see that was my thought. I mean I knew storms/reavers rip through marines since I've had a similar issue in SCII with storms but I was thinking that maybe I can micro out of it, since, micro is one of the things I love about BW/SCII in general. I would think in terms of hts I can emp them using a science vessel or something but I dunno about reavers. Given, I can focus fire them with tanks but I guess this is all APM that I don't have as of yet. I think the main reason I lost that engagement wasn't the speedlots but due to the supply difference. He just had a much bigger army than I did and I had bad positioning

On August 21 2011 15:45 Spazer wrote:

The thing about storm dodging is that it has very little to do with reaction speed. If you begin to move your units the moment you see the storm appear over your units, you're probably already screwed, especially with a bio force. The trick is to figure out what the most likely location is that they'll storm, and to move out of there pronto. Proper unit spread is also quite effective.

Pre-reaver and storm, a mnm/tank force can be a scary thing for a protoss to deal with. mnm have pretty good dps, so they take out shields very fast. This leaves the tanks free to dish out the hurt on the dragoons and zealots. mnm also rape slowlots like nobody's business. But yeah, as people have already mentioned, its probably better to stick to a mech composition when playing TvP, especially if you're just starting out.

On August 21 2011 14:09 BigFan wrote:
Isn't that where all the fun lies? ;P

On August 21 2011 17:49 SarR wrote:

So true...I swear to God, there is nothing sexier than raping a lurker field with stim marines or raping fifteen zealots charging at you in a straight line.

On August 21 2011 12:12 wherebugsgo wrote:
One of the biggest reasons to go mech in TvP (and I'm surprised no one mentioned this) is because it forces the P to get observers, and to constantly be careful. Basically, if the Protoss doesn't have observers with his army, any spider mines you put around the map can be potentially deadly.

Let's gloss over the basics about P and T units, and then look at why mech is the optimal solution:

P:
1. Protoss units have a TON of HP.
2. Protoss units deal a LOT of burst damage. (zealot kills marine in 3 hits, for example)
3. Dragoons are naturally fairly fast, while speedlots are even faster
4. Storms and reavers do crazy amounts of area damage

T: first why bio is NOT the answer

1. Marines have too little HP
2. firebats are more or less useless
3. Medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the massive damage Protoss units deal
4. Marines don't do enough single shot damage; they have to live in order to do a lot of damage (or stim, taking precious HP away) and the way Protoss units function just doesn't let this happen
5. Storm and reavers easily one-shot bio, and usually the entire force at once
6. Bio is too damn slow
7. Little harass potential
8. Can be beaten solely with the use of BASIC protoss units. As you have experienced, pure speedlot is killer against bio, even with tank backup.

T: why mech works

1. Mech units, tanks especially, do a LOT more damage than bio.
2. Mech units, tanks especially, have a LOT more HP than bio.
3. Vultures provide spider mines, which are very effective in defense and in containing the Protoss until the P has observers. In addition, you can use spider mines aggressively as you engage the Protoss's army to buy your tanks time or outright kill dragoons. When done correctly, the Protoss must micro like a beast in order to prevent total destruction (watch Bisu vs Flash during WCG finals)
4. Vultures, after the speed upgrade, are FAST. They provide you with arguably the best harass option against a Protoss player. They two shot probes, are 75 minerals each, can kite melee units (zealots), snipe HTs, and hold their own against dragoons when microed correctly.
5. The size and HP of mech units mitigates the effects of storm and reavers.
6. Mech units have the superior range necessary to engage Protoss armies. In fact, using reavers against sieged tanks is very difficult precisely because of this.
7.Tanks and mines deal splash damage, which is VERY useful in thinning out protoss armies.
8. Upgraded goliaths are pretty much the best AA that Terran has; natural transition against the oft-used carrier-switch
9. Mech usage, especially with good defense/turtling/expanding often forces the Protoss to do things like: double expand, add tech or switch tech (HTs, carriers, arbiters), harass with reavers or storm drops, etc etc. Funnily enough, mech deals fine with all of these things, often with just the simple addition of science vessels.

Of course, now that you know that, the hard part is getting a build order, learning it, and then perfecting your macro/micro. For the most part the ratio of tank to vulture is stylistic, but you'll figure it out as you go along.

For example, the progamer Fantasy often makes more vultures than other players, because he's fond of using vultures to harass and sometimes even just straight up win the game.

On August 22 2011 03:27 Fontong wrote:

Actually, a bunch of this info isn't accurate.

"P:"
1: Yes.
2: No, tanks deal a lot of burst damage. Dragoon damage is actually very low against marines.
3. Not too relevant to the situation, as it's not like protoss units go faster against MMT than they do against tank/vult
4. You would have been far more accurate leaving it simply to this point, that reaver and HT slay bio ridiculously well

"T: first why bio is NOT the answer"
1. Nope, bio has much higher dps than mech does. Stimmed marine DPS is outrageously high.
2. Firebats are effective against zealots, and thus have seen use in games in which pros use the deep six build
3. To be more accurate: medics can't heal fast enough to compensate for the high damage reavers and HTs deal. Basic units don't deal that high dps
4, 5 are basically the same reason, and good too.
6. What? Bio is slow? What... Mech is slow. Bio is very mobile, especially with stim.
7. Kinda true? But not in the sense you are think of, I bet. There is only little harass potential because games with MM try to end it before dropships come out.
8. This point is just wtf. If you were to go pure basic units against a bio composition you would die. The reason he lost was that his macro is inferior. Marines are ranged and have much higher damage output than zealots, and thus with medics and tanks simply decimate speedlots, even without firebats to add it. Dragoons also just suck against bio, since it takes 4 hits for a dragoon to kill even 1 marine. The basic units are just used for delay action against properly executed bio so that your area damage units can come out to save the day.

"T: why mech works" - this section is probably your most accurate one
1.: already said this is false. It's accurate, however, that the burst damage of tanks is the highest of all, but thats obvious. A couple stimmed marines have higher DPS than a tank.
2. Kinda. He was talking MMT anyway.
3/4/5/6/7 your best points
8. This one isn't very accurate either. Carriers suck against bio, since the interceptors die instantly against very high DPS (which, I might add, is dealt instantly. Goliath missiles are slow and can miss their targets). Goliaths deal explosive damage, and thus aren't great against interceptors, which are small units (explosive damage deals 100% against large, 75% against medium, and 50% against small).
9. Eh, this point is kinda weird. Against bio, protoss would expand and add tech anyway. That's just the way protoss works. You'll want storm and arbiters eventually no matter what terran build you are going up against.

I suppose my post is just a sort of 'the more you know' thing, because in the end this guy makes a well known point. Everyone familiar with BW knows that mech is the way to go, but I just want you to know why.

On August 22 2011 04:00 wherebugsgo wrote:


1. I never once mentioned anything about DPS. I mentioned damage, and my points about mech damage still hold. DPS counts for shit when marines only live for 2-3 seconds anyway.

2. Sure, dragoons don't deal as much damage vs marines as other units. Dragoons are good against marines because of their speed/range. Zealots definitely do a lot of damage, though.

3. The speed of units has to do with their harass potential and micro potential. Bio has almost none of both whereas vultures can kite speedzeals and harass probes very effectively. Obviously speed will always be a bonus.

4. Yes, firebats are good against zealots, but they are, for all intents and purposes, useless: they're only seen in cheese.

5. Try healing marines with medics when speedzealots are attacking them.

6. Bio IS slow. Much slower than vultures. Siege tanks are slow, yes, but really the speed of vultures is mostly all that matters. Of course the dilemma comes from stimming. If you stim vs Protoss it often just means you die faster.

7. Basic units WILL kill bio, even with minimal micro. Just look at the number of all-ins with biomech by Terrans recently that Protoss players just crush with nothing but dragoons. Even with vultures thrown in for spidermines the Terran will still lose.

Bisu has shown some pretty good examples of this in his recent games vs T.

On August 22 2011 04:08 Klaca wrote:

This is flat out wrong. You cant kite upgraded bio with goons, their attack animation is much too slow compared to that of rines, together with low damage makes it very ineffective. And zeals vs marine medics? Also terrible unit in the army sizes that are present in mid game. Its like trying to kill mnm with speedlings, except zealots are slower and deal less damage

The confusion regarding this is what you usually see in a game: what you see is unupgraded rines against slowlots and goons&rangegoons. In this situation rines arent so good. But the situation we are talking about is with u238 and stim, and the larger number of units which benefits mnm more than either goons or zealots.

On August 22 2011 04:08 Klaca wrote:

This is flat out wrong. You cant kite upgraded bio with goons, their attack animation is much too slow compared to that of rines, together with low damage makes it very ineffective. And zeals vs marine medics? Also terrible unit in the army sizes that are present in mid game. Its like trying to kill mnm with speedlings, except zealots are slower and deal less damage

The confusion regarding this is what you usually see in a game: what you see is unupgraded rines against slowlots and goons&rangegoons. In this situation rines arent so good. But the situation we are talking about is with u238 and stim, and the larger number of units which benefits mnm more than either goons or zealots.

On August 22 2011 04:31 BigFan wrote:

You're right. I didn't have much MnM in that game and my macro was the main reason

On August 22 2011 04:38 Fontong wrote:

Yup. You should try playing some big game hunters, if you never have before. If you do, you won't have to take our word for anything. Yes, you can improve efficiently playing 1v1 on iccup, but itll be very difficult for a long time. On the other hand, BGH players are not that good and are mostly casual players as well. You'll have a low pressure environment to practice unit combinations and macro. I also recommend playing blood bath games, because it'll help you a lot with your micro. Since you don't need a specific strategy to be successful against normal players, it'll really help you to think on your feet. Man, I would totally be down to play some games with you too. I always loved playing blood bath and BGH in addition to regular ICUP games.

On August 22 2011 06:17 kNyTTyM wrote:
ha just noticed your wall isn't zealot proof on either side