|
On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder".
...
You will NEVER learn Starcraft if you only count your wins and never compare them to your losses.
Obviously, if you ignore your losses you will not improve because you must learn from your losses, but to suggest that the Blizzard ladder system is preventing that is quite absurd.
Let me surprise you here. Blizzard doesn't need to show you your losses because chances are they are roughly equal to your number of wins. Ladder winrate is not a meaningful statistic in determining your skill in Sc2 (especially in low leagues). By removing winrate from your profile they are actually doing you a service by preventing you from getting caught up on meaningless statistics. What actually matters is the skill of the opponents you were winning against, so special attention should be paid towards ladder rank.
All a high winrate is indicative of is that you are on average not playing good enough opponents. That will impair your improvement.
Aside from that, I agree that games are becoming much easier. I remember when a game-over meant you had to start the game from the VERY BEGINNING. In a modern game like Halo, dying only sets you back to a place one minute earlier.
|
I don't agree that showing your losses to others is important. It's useful information to have for yourself, certainly. As long as the option is still available, it's all good.
Regarding modern games and challenges, I completely agree the majority of games out there simply are not challenging and rewarding. There are a few exceptions - most noteably, Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2 on Xbox/PS. Many people gave up on the first boss of NG 1 because it was "impossible" lol. You cannot Gods of War button spam your way through these games! To me, bosses should nearly always kill you on your first attempt at least, or force you to use rare/expensive items (healing stuff) when you make mistakes. If they don't, then why the hell are they a boss?
I think many gamers out there do not value the rewards from overcoming difficult challenges. They would rather farm 500 kills with X weapon for an achievement reward (whoopie). I love the satisfying and rewarding feeling I get from downing a tough boss after a lot of struggle. I may be swearing and tempted to chuck my controller through the TV during the challenges, but man am I fist-pumping when I overcome it! I just don't get that feeling from most games out there these days.
|
Have you even played God of War above normal difficulty?
|
Have you ever played Ninja Gaiden even on normal difficulty?
Gods of War is a joke at hard difficulty compared to NG on normal difficulty. I do not own a PS3, but have played Gods of War 3 on hard mode at a friends house. I don't know how far we got as I don't hang out with him anymore. but I remember I liked the Hades fight and it was a decent challenge to learn the patterns. Otherwise, I often thought "How is this hard mode?" as I mindlessly defeated mobs and bosses. Oh my god... especially those easy mobs. NG mobs were put in the game to kill you, Gods of War mobs were put in the game for you to kill.
|
If you want hard games, they're definitely still out there. As a bonus, you're more likely to run into games that are hard in a good way (see: Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Devil May Cry 3, God Hand for examples) as opposed to games that are hard because of bad controls or making you play the entire five minute stage again when you die at the end or something (Ninja Gaiden 1 on the NES, for the latter. Stage 7 is super fun, right? Oh and putting birds that did more damage than anything else over pits was pretty cool too, especially when you didn't even know they were there till you jumped. Or Karnov not letting you alter your momentum in mid air, that was pretty awesome too).
Many more games also have selectable difficulty levels, which means if you don't want your face smashed in you can still enjoy the game ... or if you do feel a bit masochistic you can go ahead and make the game kill you a lot. They're not always done well, but they certainly can be (Devil May Cry 3 did pretty well with its difficulty levels, for instance).
|
Doom 2 on Nightmare....nothing else can ever measure up.
|
On August 13 2011 07:43 crate wrote:
If you want hard games, they're definitely still out there. As a bonus, you're more likely to run into games that are hard in a good way (see: Super Meat Boy, VVVVVV, Devil May Cry 3, God Hand for examples) as opposed to games that are hard because of bad controls or making you play the entire five minute stage again when you die at the end or something (Ninja Gaiden 1 on the NES, for the latter. Stage 7 is super fun, right? Oh and putting birds that did more damage than anything else over pits was pretty cool too, especially when you didn't even know they were there till you jumped. Or Karnov not letting you alter your momentum in mid air, that was pretty awesome too).
(...snip...)
Ninja Gaiden 1 (NES) certainly was for the masochists in that last stage. The stage itself required such precise execution to avoid the many insta-death areas, such as the birds knocking you into the pit that you allude to. Memorizing the stage, locations of enemies, mechanics of enemy spawning/despawning, and enemy movements were all necessary to complete that last stage. (Oh, and you need a good deal of patience and perseverance too.) After making it through that nightmare, you were faced with a challenging 3-phase boss where whenever you die, you have to start over the whole friggin stage! That was one part of the game I really had issues with - of course it's simpler now on emulators where you can save state at the start of the boss. I could deal with the insta-death traps, but that last stage followed by a difficult boss (especially when you don't even know his patterns yet) with SEVERE punishment for dying on him was just too much.
|
On August 13 2011 00:16 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
Newer games does NOT punish the player for loosing, ever. The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder". I'm sorry, but if you want me to take you seriously, you need to have subject/verb agreement (Newer games *do* NOT punish) and spell *losing* correctly.
Hi, even though I might misspell a few words, I speak 3 languages - do you?
|
I don't think this is an issue at all, as yes, it hides your losses if you're below master's, but if you're striving to be the best you can and can't see your losses, its because you aren't good enough to be in masters, and that should push you enough without having to see a number representation of your losses.
A complete non issue in SCII in my opinion.
|
On August 13 2011 09:42 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:16 mbr2321 wrote:On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
Newer games does NOT punish the player for loosing, ever. The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder". I'm sorry, but if you want me to take you seriously, you need to have subject/verb agreement (Newer games *do* NOT punish) and spell *losing* correctly. Hi, even though I might misspell a few words, I speak 3 languages - do you?
Not to mention how shallow it is to not take someone seriously because of grammar/spelling on a public internet forum in the blog section...
|
At least some developers still know that "hardcore" gamers still exist and cater to them. What pisses me off however is how developers like Blizzard are screwing over their old and loyal fanbase by catering to the wider and richer crowd with ezmode gameplay and RMT and other money-grubbing methods. It's business, however, and there's nothing we can do about it when we're outnumbered by the new gamers by 3-to-1 or something like that.
|
On August 13 2011 09:40 EscPlan9 wrote:
Ninja Gaiden 1 (NES) certainly was for the masochists in that last stage. The stage itself required such precise execution to avoid the many insta-death areas, such as the birds knocking you into the pit that you allude to. Memorizing the stage, locations of enemies, mechanics of enemy spawning/despawning, and enemy movements were all necessary to complete that last stage. (Oh, and you need a good deal of patience and perseverance too.) After making it through that nightmare, you were faced with a challenging 3-phase boss where whenever you die, you have to start over the whole friggin stage! That was one part of the game I really had issues with - of course it's simpler now on emulators where you can save state at the start of the boss. I could deal with the insta-death traps, but that last stage followed by a difficult boss (especially when you don't even know his patterns yet) with SEVERE punishment for dying on him was just too much.
The thing is, once you do it a few times, it's easy.
I used to be able to beat the game on one life, and I'm not a great platformer player by any means.
I think one of my friends filmed another friend beating the game while looking through a mirror.
And then when you think about it, it's not a particularly deep game...
|
I was pretty angry when they removed the win/loss from lower leagues, so I played harder to get into masters league to see my record. Got masters in 2v2 last season, and this season masters 3v3, and today masters 1v1. I might not have been as competitive and played as hard to get promoted if the win/loss was around when I was plat and diamond, so I actually contribute some of my success to Blizzard implementing no losses shown in lower leagues.
|
On August 13 2011 07:26 EscPlan9 wrote:
Have you ever played Ninja Gaiden even on normal difficulty?
Gods of War is a joke at hard difficulty compared to NG on normal difficulty. I do not own a PS3, but have played Gods of War 3 on hard mode at a friends house. I don't know how far we got as I don't hang out with him anymore. but I remember I liked the Hades fight and it was a decent challenge to learn the patterns. Otherwise, I often thought "How is this hard mode?" as I mindlessly defeated mobs and bosses. Oh my god... especially those easy mobs. NG mobs were put in the game to kill you, Gods of War mobs were put in the game for you to kill.
I've finished all DMC on DMD. I've finished God Hand on hard. I havent played Ninja Gaiden but it's pretty common consensus that they are similar
By no means is God of War as difficult as those games, but to call it a button masher is just ignorant.
|
On August 13 2011 13:16 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 09:40 EscPlan9 wrote:
Ninja Gaiden 1 (NES) certainly was for the masochists in that last stage. The stage itself required such precise execution to avoid the many insta-death areas, such as the birds knocking you into the pit that you allude to. Memorizing the stage, locations of enemies, mechanics of enemy spawning/despawning, and enemy movements were all necessary to complete that last stage. (Oh, and you need a good deal of patience and perseverance too.) After making it through that nightmare, you were faced with a challenging 3-phase boss where whenever you die, you have to start over the whole friggin stage! That was one part of the game I really had issues with - of course it's simpler now on emulators where you can save state at the start of the boss. I could deal with the insta-death traps, but that last stage followed by a difficult boss (especially when you don't even know his patterns yet) with SEVERE punishment for dying on him was just too much. The thing is, once you do it a few times, it's easy. I used to be able to beat the game on one life, and I'm not a great platformer player by any means. I think one of my friends filmed another friend beating the game while looking through a mirror. And then when you think about it, it's not a particularly deep game...
I mean, I still beat the game. Just that I don't think that last stage was a good example of something being "challenging". It more was just a major pain in the ass. At least letting you start from the last portion of the stage or phase 1 of the boss would have been much more reasonable.
aha I knew I recognized you  I blogged about my experiences with NG NES and you responded in there too
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=203480
|
On August 13 2011 14:09 almond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 07:26 EscPlan9 wrote:
Have you ever played Ninja Gaiden even on normal difficulty?
Gods of War is a joke at hard difficulty compared to NG on normal difficulty. I do not own a PS3, but have played Gods of War 3 on hard mode at a friends house. I don't know how far we got as I don't hang out with him anymore. but I remember I liked the Hades fight and it was a decent challenge to learn the patterns. Otherwise, I often thought "How is this hard mode?" as I mindlessly defeated mobs and bosses. Oh my god... especially those easy mobs. NG mobs were put in the game to kill you, Gods of War mobs were put in the game for you to kill. I've finished all DMC on DMD. I've finished God Hand on hard. I havent played Ninja Gaiden but it's pretty common consensus that they are similar By no means is God of War as difficult as those games, but to call it a button masher is just ignorant.
I really want to try DMC, but I only have XBox 360 and I hear DMC4 kinda sucks?
The combat in God of War isn't random button mashing so to speak. But there certainly is very little depth and most of the fights in the game can be beaten by tapping square a bunch.
And if you haven't played NG, you just cannot compare it frankly. I do not see the common consensus saying GoW's difficulty is even similar to NG difficulty. I cannot speak to DMC as I never played it.
|
DMC3 is on the PC too. I haven't played it on the PC and I think if you can get the PS2 version you should, but I hear it's not a terrible port. It does have the plus that you can actually turn off the music without nuking the rest of your sound (and then getting Lustercutted because you can't hear anything).
DMC1 is also very good and well worth playing. DMC1 has almost certainly better enemy design--especially the bosses--but gives you less freedom over Dante's actions; DMC3 is fabulously fluid but the enemy design is seriously lacking.
And re: Ninja Gaiden NES being easy once you've done it: Well, so are a lot of other things I'd consider "hard". The fact that it's so distressingly frustrating to even beat the stage once is a major turn-off and a great example of the bad kind of difficulty imo.
|
On August 13 2011 14:43 EscPlan9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 14:09 almond wrote:On August 13 2011 07:26 EscPlan9 wrote:
Have you ever played Ninja Gaiden even on normal difficulty?
Gods of War is a joke at hard difficulty compared to NG on normal difficulty. I do not own a PS3, but have played Gods of War 3 on hard mode at a friends house. I don't know how far we got as I don't hang out with him anymore. but I remember I liked the Hades fight and it was a decent challenge to learn the patterns. Otherwise, I often thought "How is this hard mode?" as I mindlessly defeated mobs and bosses. Oh my god... especially those easy mobs. NG mobs were put in the game to kill you, Gods of War mobs were put in the game for you to kill. I've finished all DMC on DMD. I've finished God Hand on hard. I havent played Ninja Gaiden but it's pretty common consensus that they are similar By no means is God of War as difficult as those games, but to call it a button masher is just ignorant. I really want to try DMC, but I only have XBox 360 and I hear DMC4 kinda sucks? The combat in God of War isn't random button mashing so to speak. But there certainly is very little depth and most of the fights in the game can be beaten by tapping square a bunch. And if you haven't played NG, you just cannot compare it frankly. I do not see the common consensus saying GoW's difficulty is even similar to NG difficulty. I cannot speak to DMC as I never played it.
DMC 4..lots of room for improvement..but definitely doesn't suck.
Not everyone likes to continue 10+ times just to beat a level. If you do though, God of War 3 still lets you challenge yourself in chaos mode.
When did I ever compare Ninja Gaiden's difficulty to God of War's? lol. My whole point was that it's not a button masher. Obviously you admire difficult games, but stop bashing a great game just to show your fascination with Ninja Gaiden.
|
My bad, I read "God Hand" and thought you meant God of War.
God of War is a fun game to play through. The story, graphics, and cinematics are much better than NG for sure. The challenge and depth is what I was critiquing since OP blog is mostly about the lack of difficult challenges and punishment for mistakes/losing in modern games.
Oh and I know not everyone likes to continue 10+ times just to even get to a boss, and then continue 20+ times to beat the boss (obv as you get better at the game you won't die even close to as much). I was not disagreeing with that. Gamers today expect to be handheld a bit more through the games so the difficulty isn't as frustrating (also alluded to in OP).
|
Reminds me of this article, "The Power and Peril of Praising Your Kids":
http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/
Love the George Carlin video too. I agree that the whole "self esteem" fetish and "everybody is a winner" philosophy is actually more damaging than good. Knowing how to deal with failure is a learned skill, and if kids are never allowed to fail then they can't get this skill and they suffer for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
