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On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
Newer games does NOT punish the player for loosing, ever. The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder".
I'll second that.
This isn't even that new, but unfortunately it's unlikely to change, the mainstream at least will not change for awhile.
Try getting someone who has grown up playing modern games, in particular console games like call of duty and tell them to play quake, first there's the large amount of people that care about graphics for some reason, they won't even play, the rest won't be willing to put in the effort when they're used to playing a game and "owning it up e z p z".
That's just the sad truth, for now it's hard for any difficult game to make it into the market because that's how it is for the supposed mainstream "gamer" these days. Even when you look at BW-SC2 its obvious that without the changes like multiple building selection, rally to minerals, unlimited unit selection etc, it would be much less popular.
I'm not gonna lie, it makes me worry about the future of the games industry.
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there's plenty of things in life besides games that "build character", so why can't i just play a game to have fun? for some people games are a good way to relieve stress, just as sports are. i used to be uber competitive, and i ended up tearing my ACL in a silly pick up game. the result was a year of painful therapy, and recovery. when i start playing again, i won't care as much about winning or losing. i want to stay healthy. competition to a certain level is healthy. after that threshold, its not a good thing. also, you can make things as competitive as you want, but doesn't mean you have to do the same for others.
these things could be competitive or not, just depends if you want them controlling your life or not:
-sports (at your park, at your gym, at your school). you play to win or lose in a pick up game of any sport, and when you lose, you wait to play again cuz you get kicked off the court. furthermore, you don't have to WIN during practice. do you have to win when you practice your shot, or dribbling, or free kicks, or whatever? nope. you can shoot hoops by yourself, are you supposed to beat yourself? winning is just as rewarding as losing, and you actually don't need either for it to be rewarding. the enjoyment is sometimes the reward itself. if i watch my favorite team fight valiantly and they lose, i can still enjoy the loss.
-school. get better grades, get into better schools, get a better job, get more money, get more bitches, more sex, more cars, more toys... lots of competition, but honestly, you don't need the money, or beter job, or better school for the reward. money can't buy happiness.
if you want to keep track of your losses, why don't you do it yourself? competition is good to a certain level, but don't be too obsessed with it.
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Won't we see tiered play and games then? The games for the casual, for the normal gamer and for the competitive gamer? Hard games are still popular and do sell decently, if not at the top.
Games like Demon's Souls, Catherine and similar games are still pretty hard, if not mind numbingly hard as some games used to be. The games that almost always are hard are the turn based strategy games. There the challenge is in finding a solution, there is nothing else really. These usually allow you to set up handicaps in order to get the optimal experience as well. Some action RPGs I would like to increase the difficulty up to the level of one hit = dead, yet the hardest difficulty is nowhere near there.
I play for fun, only when I go online do I care about difficulty. When I play single player I consider it a story. If the game is boring I cheat to get the story and cutscenes since the other elements of single player games usually aren't that interesting (with some exceptions that are worth it for the experience).
Online I agree with you, there it should be hard. If you face a better player you should die with a 95%+ probability. If there is only a 60-40 edge for a player that is approximately twice as good at the game, then it isn't a good online game. Team games it is harder to allow one player to shine since 5v1 is rare to win (but oh so fun), even in games that reward skill.
Something I look forward to is the next generation of player created content. Already in NWN you saw some pretty epic player created modules. These can cater to any demographic if it is easy enough to create new things in the game.
edit, something that annoys me more than this issue in single player games, http://8.asset.soup.io/asset/2265/4920_5aa5_500.jpeg boss fights you can't win. VtM werewolf for example, spent 30 minutes trying to kill it (one try)...
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You can see your losses in Masters league and when you're below that I think you can just count your total games - wins. Not that it really matters how many wins or losses you have in bronze or silver. You don't need punishment to learn anything. A reward is just as effective.
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Agreed. How long is it since a good RTS (besides sc2) came out? How long is it since a good shooter came out? Those new Battlefield and Call of Duty games are so bad and not-competitive. They make it easier with perks and other "cool" stuff, but this removes the possible competition from the game. Sad days 
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On August 12 2011 18:28 Sotamursu wrote:
You can see your losses in Masters league and when you're below that I think you can just count your total games - wins. Not that it really matters how many wins or losses you have in bronze or silver. You don't need punishment to learn anything. A reward is just as effective.
Yeah we know it. It's the "idea" behind helping players, instead of punishing bad play - which should lead to people trying harder. Critical thinking... what did I do wrong? How can I avoid losses? etc.
Some youtube kids gave my blog 1 star.. I guess I hurt some feelings.
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People don't want to get punished when they are playing a game. That's what real life is for.
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I've been keeping a tally of my games, both wins and losses. It's on a piece of scrap paper.
120 games and still going strong. @_@
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I want a platformer revival, and I want to go through $100 worth of controllers as I go through that.
Makes no sense as a business model though, because companies know that the hardcore nerdz who want that kind of stuff will still buy whatever is being pitched. Casuals are more hard to sell, and aren't gonna buy something that may potentially drive you insane
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On August 13 2011 00:07 Hawk wrote:I want a platformer revival, and I want to go through $100 worth of controllers as I go through that. Makes no sense as a business model though, because companies know that the hardcore nerdz who want that kind of stuff will still buy whatever is being pitched. Casuals are more hard to sell, and aren't gonna buy something that may potentially drive you insane
Why would the hardcore nerds buy all this junk? I might be considered hardcore since I played most of the great games back in the 90s and fell in love with them, but I just can't waste such money on something I can't get my heart set on.
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On August 12 2011 19:56 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 18:28 Sotamursu wrote:
You can see your losses in Masters league and when you're below that I think you can just count your total games - wins. Not that it really matters how many wins or losses you have in bronze or silver. You don't need punishment to learn anything. A reward is just as effective. Yeah we know it. It's the "idea" behind helping players, instead of punishing bad play - which should lead to people trying harder. Critical thinking... what did I do wrong? How can I avoid losses? etc. Some youtube kids gave my blog 1 star.. I guess I hurt some feelings.
What? I don't get it...if it doesn't show your losses then you haven't lost? How do people make that connection when they just watched themselves lose the game? Your pushing of some kind of social engineering through video games is odd.
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On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
Newer games does NOT punish the player for loosing, ever. The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder".
I'm sorry, but if you want me to take you seriously, you need to have subject/verb agreement (Newer games *do* NOT punish) and spell *losing* correctly.
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Needing to restart the 11th NOD mission in C&C1 five times because I misplaced my obelisk, or forgot a bait unit for airstrike, or some other dumb mistake was plenty frustrating.
Stuff isn't like you remember it when you were a kid.
Trust me, we were plenty coddled compared to the generation before us. I think we turned out alright? Your kids are gonna complain about the world their children are going to be razed in as well btw.
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I agree but this is just the tip of the iceberg.
If you think about it, games are only about pleasing the players immediately and completely. WoW is a good example.
What is happening is that they are turning a beautiful media and way of expression into nothing but a drug.
On August 13 2011 00:16 mbr2321 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
Newer games does NOT punish the player for loosing, ever. The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder". I'm sorry, but if you want me to take you seriously, you need to have subject/verb agreement (Newer games *do* NOT punish) and spell *losing* correctly.
Oh?
And do you speak danish, maybe?
Or do you speak french, spanish or german? Because I do. Now, be quiet please and leave your ethnocentrist bullshit for the national communities.
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Australia628 Posts
I tend to find games like that boring, there is no challenge and therefor no incentive to improve/devise new strategies. There is a fine balance though. If you've ever played spongebob boat-o-cross you would know that you can definitely err too far on the punishment side.
But then again, games like farmville are 100x time more popular than anything I play, so my opinion is probably not that of the majority, and that is who most developers will cater for. In the end, blame humanity not the games companies, they are simply making what sells best. I think in the future I will be relying on niche games that cater to the more competitive market, the blockbusters will likely stay punishment free.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Whats wrong with people playing games for fun instead of a challenge?
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On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
Newer games does NOT punish the player for loosing, ever. The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder".
i'm still punished for losing, because i lost, i feel terrible, i was outplayed, and i want to win. just because other people don't see it doesn't mean i didn't lose or that it means nothing.
challenge and reward is more often an internal validation than an external one.
there are also plenty of games out there that maintain the principles of older games. you just haven't heard of them because they're not mainstream. mainstream moved in another direction, what was one mainstream is now a niche. but they're still available.
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On August 13 2011 01:42 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 16:47 Qzy wrote:
Newer games does NOT punish the player for loosing, ever. The gaming scene has taken a change from being challenging and rewarding to "You can't see your losses on ladder". i'm still punished for losing, because i lost, i feel terrible, i was outplayed, and i want to win. just because other people don't see it doesn't mean i didn't lose or that it means nothing. challenge and reward is more often an internal validation than an external one. there are also plenty of games out there that maintain the principles of older games. you just haven't heard of them because they're not mainstream. mainstream moved in another direction, what was one mainstream is now a niche. but they're still available.
This, exactly. It's merely insult to injury if you take a look at your win/loss rate later and decide you're obviously not good enough to compete when every douchebag with a keyboard points and laughs at you.
It's the same exact reason hardcore players were TERRIFIED of the idea of switching races, even just a month after the game's release; your win rate would plummet and you'd be a laughing stock of the community.
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Its pretty sad.
Perma death gets me off.
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EPT
