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On August 11 2011 21:00 Mikilatov wrote:
I'm not going to lie. I tried really hard to read through this but couldn't manage to keep going when I got to the point about Tasteless partying. This nitpicks so badly, and I feel like you're just way too critical overall. I so badly wish to counterpoint everything you've said, but it's entirely fruitless, and I dont even know where to begin.
I may not have pulled punches about my criticism, but I felt like a harsh stance was fair to further highlight the contrast to the blind devotion that Tastosis get from a large section of the viewing public.
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I hear you and see what you want to say, but I can't really talk about your analysis compared to Artosis as
a) I didn't watch the specific game
b) think your analysis(or at least what you wrote down) lacks some important stuff that could change the whole thing.
So I won't comment on that.
However, about tastosis in general (and your other points)
While I agree that Tastosis are not the best players in the world and do some mistakes, I still think they are still way, way ahead of all the other casters out there.
When other Casters(won't say names here) clearly don't even know the basics of the game, Artosis comes out with clear analysis of playstyles and strategies. He might do mistakes sooner or later because he is not perfect, but most of the time he is correct.
He also says what the player, in his opinion, SHOULD HAVE done and why. This is really what gets you exciting as you then can say
"Oh shit, Artosis said he f*** up. Let's see how it goes on."
This is excitement. I don't even get slightly excited when I listen to other casrers.
About the bias... Well, that IS a problem. A good caster is not biased.
However, a good caster also points out mistakes and bad play.
What I think is that Artosis is sometimes TOO honest about that.
"This player is so bad, he just lost the game."(arr)
This kills excitement.. It doesn't happen too often, but when it happens, it's really annoying. Because oh so often he is right about it.
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Everyone keeps wanting someone that knows everything about the game... I watched home story cup 3 and even though they could tell you the exact build coming up they were (mostly) boring.
You need passion rather than knowledge to be a great caster. Look at the people that are considered as good casters by the community they all have super passion for the game above all else, that is what matters.
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EDIT: SHit, wanted to edit. Quoted instead -_-'
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On August 11 2011 21:00 Moralez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 20:55 RPR_Tempest wrote:
You've got to be kidding me. None of this is good constructive criticism. It's all just nitpicking.
EDIT: Especially that line about how Tasteless has no right to criticise players because he isn't as good as them. That's the most fucking retarded thing I've ever heard. I agree with this post. i wish i didnt read all the OP. 
It's true it's a really foolish thing to say, it IS true Tastless often misplaces his criticism though, you'd be fine to say he needs to think a little more before he does it sometimes.
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Hah well I don't know what to say really. I think they are great becauseI love their personality. Both of them have done so much for the SC-scene with the team house interviews from artosis, the gomTV Classic casting from tasteless (Hi lilsusie! ^_^), that I always take what they say with a laugh. And I don't what you expect really? Some people love them, some do not. Some mistakes happen, sometimes they are gods. That's just how it is. Sometimes they a bias towards some of the older players (i.e NaDa) but... it's NaDa god dammit. He's been owning up noobs for more than 10 years and have been (and still are) a rolemodel for both Tasteless and Artosis.
It's still funny for me to hear artosis and tasteless joke around on gomTV and do ladder jokes and what not because imo they have the real personality of gamers. They don't take everything so serious. Don't ever change tastosis <3
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On August 11 2011 21:02 Pengu wrote:
Everyone keeps wanting someone that knows everything about the game... I watched home story cup 3 and even though they could tell you the exact build coming up they were (mostly) boring.
You need passion rather than knowledge to be a great caster. Look at the people that are considered as good casters by the community they all have super passion for the game above all else, that is what matters.
But Tasteless doesn't even have that anymore.
WHERE IS HIS PASSION????
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effective strategy-casting on-the-fly is sometimes impossible in an RTS.
its not a ball-and-stick sport. 10,000 things are happening at once. relative to other casters the Tastosis team do a better combo job of analysis/humour/entertainment than any other broadcasters.
the job is impossible. an effective analysis can only reliably be made after the game is over and replays can be examined slowly.
if your rebuttal is that its possible with some "hard work" then start your own live stream. get added to the list here on TL.Net. your improved analysis and added entertainment value will get quickly noticed.
and if it is possible to consistently get on-the-fly analysis correct every time you'll soon rocket to the top of list of casters to watch.
then you'll get paid to broadcast the highest profile games...
and because u r the only one who can provide this reliable instant on-the-fly analysis you can start your own "SC2 caster training institute". lost SC2 casters will pay 10s of thousands of dollars for your training.
my analysis of Tastosis being the best "combo of analysis and entertainment" comes from a casual perspective...
i'm not spending 10,000 hours of my free time analysing the 5,000 casting options on here.
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On August 11 2011 21:02 Pengu wrote:
Everyone keeps wanting someone that knows everything about the game... I watched home story cup 3 and even though they could tell you the exact build coming up they were (mostly) boring.
You need passion rather than knowledge to be a great caster. Look at the people that are considered as good casters by the community they all have super passion for the game above all else, that is what matters.
I actually loved HSC3 casting, and I would not mind at all a completely analytic caster who was an incredibly high level player paired with a entirely hype play by play caster who does not attempt to do any analysis at all (and therefore does not misinform the public), like Totalbiscuit.
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First of all: Take the sand out of your vagina. Its not worth writing a essay about.
Who cares if they make mistakes? I would absolutely love to see your casting. There was a pole somewhere on TL where tastosis where the favorite casters by far, I don't see why they can't disagree with what the player(s) are doing. in my opinion that's a fundamental role of casting.
But seriously, 99% of the community loves Tastosis. The other 0.9% of the community dislikes them but dosent complain because they are mature. You are the 0.1% of the commnuity who really are killing eSports (all jokes aside.)
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Everyone makes mistakes, you just get upset over trivial things that don't really matter. Everyone makes mistakes and ppl plat+ can recognize those mistakes.
I don't think I have seen a perfect caster (like you want) there is always some sort of flaw whether it be blandness, mis-communication or misanalysis etc etc.
They cast every day for hours on end and you want them to be perfect every day. No sports casters or e-sports casters are perfect and often ramble on biases towards player just to fill air time. It happens and the world has accept it.
Day9 could talk about sand and tell me false information on it... and I'd eat that shit up. Why? Because he is entertaining and he knows how to make an hour go by quick..
Entertainment is their product not sc2 games.
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I dont see an issue with casters having bias. We all have a certain amount of bias anyways and to try and pretend like we dont is an insult to those of us who understand human nature.
Basically it sounds to me like you are jealous of them and their success so you project that jealousy into a post where you pick apart every tiny little thing they have ever done wrong, then you throw in a whole bunch of total crap because your argument is highly flawed as it comes from your own bias and voila you have a whiny, college thesis sized, inaccurate post.
Heres an idea, if you dont like them maybe just dont watch?
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On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote:
Tasteless’s casting is most annoying to me when he attempts to unfairly criticize what he perceives as poor play, despite the fact that his lacking skill at SC2 play and analysis put him in no position to do so. The most salient example of this, which keeps happening over and over again throughout their casts ever since MMA’s dropship style became popularized at MLG Columbus, is his constant criticism of Terran usage of medivac octodrops against Zerg after Mutalisks have popped (“I’m not sure he should be doing this, this doesn’t look like it will work…”). He has a very simplistic view with regards to the goal of the drop: to cause materiel damage to the Zerg, whether in form tech buildings, drones, hatcheries, etc. However, this is not the only way medivac drops can improve a Terran’s position in a game against Zerg. For example, if a medivac was at the other side of a map and was picked off by Zerg’s mutas attempting to harass a far flung expansion, BUT the Terran managed to move his main marine-tank army to a forward position against the Zerg and siege up, the Terran has in fact used his medivacs to great effect.
Mutalisks do not slow down a terran push, banelings do. It's the constant threat of losing all your marines to a large ling/baneling army that makes it hard to push through the map, the mutalisks can easily clear up a drop on their own and then return to the middle to clear up the remaining forces in most cases.
Now, Artosis’s criticisms may have had some validity if they were playing on a Terran favored map, but they were playing on Bel Shir Beach, home of the 30% TvZ winrate, the bane of Jinro, and a map where it is nearly impossible for Terran to secure a third against Zerg, not to mention a fourth.
I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/483_Bel'shir_Beach_1.1
9-7 in Zerg's favour is hardly a big deal. Since they updated the map it's looked just fine in my eyes.
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On August 11 2011 20:48 xza wrote:Hes ruining esports!  jokes aside i think every caster are bound to make mistakes when they're casting 4-5 hours at a time. they are improving from season 1 so its good for me so far 
Not really. Hindsight is 100% better than foresight, Tasteless is a play-by-play caster. OP addresses that Tasteless unfairly criticises the players' mistakes, which I think is absolutely unfair of the OP.
Justification @ OP:
As a caster, you are going on the fly, there is no preparation whatsoever. Whatever happens, you don't know what is going to happen during an engagement, and you don't exactly have the full picture even after the engagement finishes, unless a player just crushes his opponent with a far larger supply lead.
And casters cannot stop talking to analyse the game, they would not be doing their job otherwise. If you were a caster, there's a billion things going through your mind at once, you want to say something as well as comprehend what goes on during the game.
So Tasteless spends his focus entirely on commentating, and because of his inbuilt knowledge, he more often than not spews out correct or half correct information automatically. He doesn't have time to think.
Artosis covers that blind spot of Tasteless' very well. More often than not, Artosis makes correct predictions during the downtime of games, while players are macroing or transitioning.
And I don't really think being biased towards one player ruins eSPORTs. It creates balance/better player discussions, it introduces divides, it perpetuates small amounts of drama and memes.
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On August 11 2011 21:04 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 21:02 Pengu wrote:
Everyone keeps wanting someone that knows everything about the game... I watched home story cup 3 and even though they could tell you the exact build coming up they were (mostly) boring.
You need passion rather than knowledge to be a great caster. Look at the people that are considered as good casters by the community they all have super passion for the game above all else, that is what matters. would not mind at all a completely analytic caster who was an incredibly high level player
This doesn't even exist. If they're splitting their time between casting and playing they won't be good at both.
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It's because Tasteless lost his passion :3.
No but seriously, if you watch the GSL you should have some general idea of whats going on regardless of what the casters are doing. The production tab is open for you most the time and the minimap shows you movements regardless of where casters are looking at. Tastosis do a great job considering the scene they're following which tends to innovate so much. Maybe their knowledge is slightly lacking but that's just how it is sometimes, no one's perfect and you if you simply don't like the style of casting you should just mute. Besides there are no casters in Korea that match Tastosis in terms of sheer charisma (maybe QXC) and I think that means more to the community than analytical expertise.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 11 2011 21:02 Pengu wrote:
Everyone keeps wanting someone that knows everything about the game... I watched home story cup 3 and even though they could tell you the exact build coming up they were (mostly) boring.
You need passion rather than knowledge to be a great caster. Look at the people that are considered as good casters by the community they all have super passion for the game above all else, that is what matters.
It depends on the audience. I thought HSC3 was the pinnacle of casting.
In the past, being popular wasn't enough to save casters like Klazart from heavy criticism on TL. The tides have turned, however.
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On August 11 2011 21:05 Andreas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 20:46 Kraznaya wrote:
Tasteless’s casting is most annoying to me when he attempts to unfairly criticize what he perceives as poor play, despite the fact that his lacking skill at SC2 play and analysis put him in no position to do so. The most salient example of this, which keeps happening over and over again throughout their casts ever since MMA’s dropship style became popularized at MLG Columbus, is his constant criticism of Terran usage of medivac octodrops against Zerg after Mutalisks have popped (“I’m not sure he should be doing this, this doesn’t look like it will work…”). He has a very simplistic view with regards to the goal of the drop: to cause materiel damage to the Zerg, whether in form tech buildings, drones, hatcheries, etc. However, this is not the only way medivac drops can improve a Terran’s position in a game against Zerg. For example, if a medivac was at the other side of a map and was picked off by Zerg’s mutas attempting to harass a far flung expansion, BUT the Terran managed to move his main marine-tank army to a forward position against the Zerg and siege up, the Terran has in fact used his medivacs to great effect. Mutalisks do not slow down a terran push, banelings do. It's the constant threat of losing all your marines to a large ling/baneling army that makes it hard to push through the map, the mutalisks can easily clear up a drop on their own and then return to the middle to clear up the remaining forces in most cases. Show nested quote +Now, Artosis’s criticisms may have had some validity if they were playing on a Terran favored map, but they were playing on Bel Shir Beach, home of the 30% TvZ winrate, the bane of Jinro, and a map where it is nearly impossible for Terran to secure a third against Zerg, not to mention a fourth. I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/483_Bel'shir_Beach_1.19-7 in Zerg's favour is hardly a big deal. Since they updated the map it's looked just fine in my eyes.
Mutas do help stop a Terran push, because Terran cannot split his marines without taking massive amounts of damage from above when mutas are present. It is much harder to push when there are mutas overhead compared to when there is just ling/baneling present.
As for Bel'Shir, I'm pretty sure nearly every professional player agrees that it is Zerg favored. The winrate is still relatively even on Korea due to the higher representation of good Terrans in Korea, and the fact that it is often used as a Zerg snipe map in team league (where the zerg sniper would be a less skilled player than the Terran carrying the streak).
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On August 11 2011 21:05 saritenite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 20:48 xza wrote:Hes ruining esports! jokes aside i think every caster are bound to make mistakes when they're casting 4-5 hours at a time. they are improving from season 1 so its good for me so far Not really. Hindsight is 100% better than foresight, Tasteless is a play-by-play caster. OP addresses that Tasteless unfairly criticises the players' mistakes, which I think is absolutely unfair of the OP. Justification @ OP: As a caster, you are going on the fly, there is no preparation whatsoever. Whatever happens, you don't know what is going to happen during an engagement, and you don't exactly have the full picture even after the engagement finishes, unless a player just crushes his opponent with a far larger supply lead. And casters cannot stop talking to analyse the game, they would not be doing their job otherwise. If you were a caster, there's a billion things going through your mind at once, you want to say something as well as comprehend what goes on during the game. So Tasteless spends his focus entirely on commentating, and because of his inbuilt knowledge, he more often than not spews out correct or half correct information automatically. He doesn't have time to think. Artosis covers that blind spot of Tasteless' very well. More often than not, Artosis makes correct predictions during the downtime of games, while players are macroing or transitioning. And I don't really think being biased towards one player ruins eSPORTs. It creates balance/better player discussions, it introduces divides, it perpetuates small amounts of drama and memes.
It's pretty easy to just do pure play by play casting and refrain from making bad calls though :/
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On August 11 2011 21:02 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 21:00 Mikilatov wrote:
I'm not going to lie. I tried really hard to read through this but couldn't manage to keep going when I got to the point about Tasteless partying. This nitpicks so badly, and I feel like you're just way too critical overall. I so badly wish to counterpoint everything you've said, but it's entirely fruitless, and I dont even know where to begin.
I may not have pulled punches about my criticism, but I felt like a harsh stance was fair to further highlight the contrast to the blind devotion that Tastosis get from a large section of the viewing public.
You should know that a lot of the people who like Tastosis isn't doing it with blind devotion. So far they are the ones who have been around for ages. They are the ones whom people have gone to for a great time (Streams, youtube videos + alot more). They actually do something for the community.
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EPT
