Recently, Teamliquid's stance on promoting cheaters has come to into the light. More specifically, the Teamliquid staff have been locking streams which try to broadcast an event promoting a player who stream-watches, was kicked out of the Collegiate Starcraft League for excessive bad manner after being put on probation for the same, and who was disqualified for trying to play two accounts in the same bracket of a tournament. This blog is a very brief attempt to explain why some people wholeheartedly agree with it, while others think it's silly.
For some people, Starcraft is a hobby. For these people, locking down streams trying to broadcast an interesting event is an annoyance. While they might be outraged if a player tried to cheat during a Global Starcraft League game, they frankly don't lose much sleep worrying about the integrity of the ladder, a collegiate league, or even a Major League Gaming preliminary event. The bottom line is these people simply want to watch a match commentated by charismatic players with a dramatic storyline. That's why these people are against Teamliquid's stance on cheaters.
For others, however, Starcraft is a career, and this drastically changes how cheating must be dealt with. A salaried Teamliquid Administrator can't approach cheaters like a hobbyist might want them to. To use an analogy, if a referee is paid off to fix a pickup Basketball game at the YMCA, the end result is a funny story. However, when Tim Donaghy was paid to fix National Basketball Association games, David Stern had a gigantic scandal on his hands. That's the position Teamliquid Administrators are in; by virtue of the popularity of Teamliquid.net they've arguably been conscripted into positions as commissioners of Starcraft 2. This is why they can't act like the hobbyist wants them to act.
Finally, another group of people are against Teamliquid's policy because they think the underlying reason for it is a specific Teamliquid Administrator's personal animus against the player question. This fits in with the persistent perception among some Starcraft 2 community members that Teamliquid's notoriously strict moderation is due to the personal, senseless prerogatives of Moderators as opposed to a desire to create the best Starcraft 2 forum possible.
While this theory will undoubtedly be attractive to some, ultimately it does not pass muster. First, the administrator with the alleged bias was not the one closing the streams. Second, Teamliquid has been incredibly consistent with the application of their anti-cheating policy, even when it had to be applied to popular players like Dimaga. Third and finally, the Administrator with the alleged grudge has believably characterized his feelings toward the player in question as those of disdain and apathy, not active dislike.
Ultimately, neither side's perspective is wrong. However, as explained above, Teamliquid has to act in the way it has acted. Thankfully for the hobbyists, though, because of the popularity of Starcraft 2, there now exist legitimate alternative communities where they can have the discussions they want.
For a second, I thought you meant TL and the staff, not the community. Not sure if it was just me.
I think a lot of people don't know about CombatEX beyond the fact that this person is really rude, off-the-wall and incredibly bad-mannered and that excites them. They're exciting because it's uncensored, wild and incredibly aggravating play that shows falter in many professionals gameplay.
I agree with you and really thankful you made this topic. I've grown more and more worrisome that people like CombatEX and Deezer were gaining an undeserved notoriety for things that may be entertaining the some, but shouldn't be condoned as a meaningful path to fame or notoriety in the community.
Some people are legitimately good, skilled, helpful, yet get no viewers or desire to make an appearance because people are more fixated on the horrid than the pleasant.
Who wants to watch a game where the players are cheating. Besides the fact its "Team Liquids" Website, the content THEY choose to promote is up to them. All other opinions are sort of void.
I side with their decision on this, not that it matters.
but seriously, good points though I have nothing to do with stream closings and such, I'm sure the decision was made a) after deliberation with other staff and b) based on a history of offensiveness/cheating.
On July 02 2011 14:15 Kenpachi wrote: wait im not understanding the situation here. can anyone clarify what actions are being referred to in the blog?
Basically, the first thing that was going to happen, was that Combat[EX] was going to play IdrA in a show match for 140$ casted by Destiny and CatZ, but then something happened and it turned into him playing CatZ, in the thread Torte linked you. So basically, because of all the stuff mentioned in the OP, TL doesn't exactly want to promote Combat[EX], or promote any stream featuring him. Then there was a lot of outcry for people because they just wanted to see Combat[EX], yadda yadda, and so on. I think the OP has the rest covered. :p
Hope I explained that well and didn't screw up the facts too much, I'm tired and haven't had the best day.
The problem is that it's really hard to draw the line, I mean some people see IdrA as glorified for being BM, not for being a great zerg player. But he's still a great zerg player who deserves to be watched and learned from. Same with Combatex, he may be super BM, but he is still an extremely good player, so in my opinion his stream warrants viewership if people are trying to learn to play aggressively. What I don't agree with, however, is streams like the one with destiny, incontrol, and combatex, trying to showcase "drama." While I respect good players for their skills, I can still think they're retarded for promoting useless bickering for more views.
I'm glad TL is maintaining a firm stance, it says a lot for the administration here. They would rather keep their site clean and professional with less views instead of succumbing to "drama streams" and boosting their active members.
Have to agree with TL's stance here. There are some people who have had multiple chances to prove themselves but they just manage to ruin everything they touch. Sometimes it's deliberate sometimes they simply just don't care. The best strategy is to ignore them wherever possible, don't include them in anything related to you and hope they take the hint and leave.
The problem is that it's really hard to draw the line, I mean some people see IdrA as glorified for being BM, not for being a great zerg player. But he's still a great zerg player who deserves to be watched and learned from. Same with Combatex, he may be super BM, but he is still an extremely good player, so in my opinion his stream warrants viewership if people are trying to learn to play aggressively. What I don't agree with, however, is streams like the one with destiny, incontrol, and combatex, trying to showcase "drama." While I respect good players for their skills, I can still think they're retarded for promoting useless bickering for more views.
I think there's a very big distinction between someone being "bad mannered" and someone outright cheating in a league multiple times. While Idra is often, passionate, about his opinions he follows the rules of the tournaments he plays in.
The problem is that it's really hard to draw the line, I mean some people see IdrA as glorified for being BM, not for being a great zerg player. But he's still a great zerg player who deserves to be watched and learned from. Same with Combatex, he may be super BM, but he is still an extremely good player, so in my opinion his stream warrants viewership if people are trying to learn to play aggressively. What I don't agree with, however, is streams like the one with destiny, incontrol, and combatex, trying to showcase "drama." While I respect good players for their skills, I can still think they're retarded for promoting useless bickering for more views.
I think there's a very big distinction between someone being "bad mannered" and someone outright cheating in a league multiple times. While Idra is often, passionate, about his opinions he follows the rules of the tournaments he plays in.
While I agree, I think it's something that the streamers know that they're getting themselves into when they open up their stream. Also, it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to 100% confirm stream cheating, it's not like how map hacks work.
While I agree, I think it's something that the streamers know that they're getting themselves into when they open up their stream. Also, it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to 100% confirm stream cheating, it's not like how map hacks work.
In the OP he talks about CombatEx being kicked out of the CSL after being warned previously for excessive bad manner and being kicked out of a tournament after trying to enter twice using two separate accounts. Stream cheating is much more arguable I agree but I think we're talking about something different.
While I agree, I think it's something that the streamers know that they're getting themselves into when they open up their stream. Also, it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to 100% confirm stream cheating, it's not like how map hacks work.
In the OP he talks about CombatEx being kicked out of the CSL after being warned previously for excessive bad manner and being kicked out of a tournament after trying to enter twice using two separate accounts. Stream cheating is much more arguable I agree but I think we're talking about something different.
Oh sorry, I didn't realize he was booted for using different accounts, I just remembered the BM charges.
Seeing the post where they tried to feature combatex in a show match, I'm kinda iffy on that, i don't know if people should try to milk that kind of notoriety for stream views, and I'm glad that TL decided that it should not be an event featured on TL. It's fun to watch combatex bm players from once in a while, but that should be left on the down-low, especially after hearing the skype call a while back where he openly admitted to stream watching constantly.
The problem is that it's really hard to draw the line, I mean some people see IdrA as glorified for being BM, not for being a great zerg player. But he's still a great zerg player who deserves to be watched and learned from. Same with Combatex, he may be super BM, but he is still an extremely good player, so in my opinion his stream warrants viewership if people are trying to learn to play aggressively. What I don't agree with, however, is streams like the one with destiny, incontrol, and combatex, trying to showcase "drama." While I respect good players for their skills, I can still think they're retarded for promoting useless bickering for more views.
I think there's a very big distinction between someone being "bad mannered" and someone outright cheating in a league multiple times. While Idra is often, passionate, about his opinions he follows the rules of the tournaments he plays in.
While I agree, I think it's something that the streamers know that they're getting themselves into when they open up their stream. Also, it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to 100% confirm stream cheating, it's not like how map hacks work.
It's pretty easy to get 100% confirmation when the offender admits to it repeatedly. Combatex is in my mind a scumbag, but he's not as scummy as someone like TT1. At least when people call him a cheater he fesses up to it.
im know combat irl and he is not that bad for a human being... well not as bad as what he is online. I like the kid and like the way he love to express himself but in the same way, i know it has gone too far a couple of times and cause serious anger in the community.
Lots of people look at that and thought he was trolling but i think thats the way he rolls and i respect the kid for keeping up with what he decided to do despite all the negative comments. He does go to 2 universities and do not bad in term of school work, at least better than several people i know of. Kid has a gf, parties on weekends a live a normal life so i dont think he ever value any ban status that an internet community could give to him (aka. he doesnt give a fuck).
So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website! Cheaters bm-ers dont give a fuck: tie out. I really dont see any point arguing in these stuff since both sides are fine with the way it is. Remember how people used to think about TT1? There a tons of people who just recently joined this community and thought that "they" are the community before they ever learn what is teamliquid and i think that is the source of the problem =_=
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
I know this is the internet and we love to imagine ourselves as freedom fighters resisting censorship and promoting understanding, but seriously. Come on. This is black and white. Combat cheats.
Combat-EX does idiotic stuff in spite of established rules and that reflects poorly on the StarCraft community; the community and staff do well to cut off his avenues of reaching audiences. Hot_Bid's response said it perfectly.
I've been following the guy since BW and he hasn't changed one bit. He just doesn't belong here.
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
I have to agree with what Deezer is saying here. His stream was openly removed from the stream list and was not publicly discussed and was privately resolved. From what I understand from people such as minigun and fayth, Deezer doesn't actually stream cheat just snipe which teamliquid has stated is "ok" not recommended but acceptable whereas stream cheating is not acceptable at all. Deezer's stream was removed because he is "bad mannered" which is an inconsistent decision. The streamlist is to be accurate to the growth of esports from what I personally understand. If Deezer has a fanbase that wants to watch his stream then why not allow his stream to be there?
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
i actually have PM with nagzgul and chill said it disabled for bm ( actually no prove ive stream cheating) no replay nothing. I snipe people stream , they mad cuz they lose and said (he maybe stream cheat).
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
No you're stream was disabled because you stream cheat.
There really is no evidence suggesting that besides a few butthurt progamers that are sick of being sniped and BM'd against. Minigun and others have stated that there is no way Deezer stream cheats, and if you've actually seen him play against people on stream, he's lost to builds like 6 pool vs Nexus first (Destiny) and proxy gates (Incontrol)
Just because people are in denial about losing and think because someone snipes them on stream they have to be stream cheating doesn't mean that it's actually true. Hell, if that were the case, Cruncher's stream should be removed because he's sniped Idra before and I'm pretty sure Idra accused him of stream cheating too.
Why do people complain about TL admins so much? :/ Obviously theyre not perfect. Nobody is. And as much as I love combat, I'd much rather have the current TL admins run everything than have combat have any bit of say in how things are run here
I pretty much agree 100% with Hot_Bid's post on the linked thread. Fuck cheaters. Cheating in eSports goes completely against the values of TeamLiquid, and anything associated with cheating (linking to sites with hacks, promoting players who hack and so on) is not tolerated on the site.
TeamLiquid is not a democracy and the Law is not blind here (mods are openly more lenient towards contributing members of the community than towards new accounts for instance). If you want to be a part of this community, you have to play by its rules.
Some of these rules will obviously not appeal to everyone; some will find the moderation too heavy, the atmosphere too elitist, or the mods too anal about enforcing some rules. That's fine; if TeamLiquid wanted to be more like Facebook and appeal to everyone, it could be like that.
But it's not. It holds true to its values and encourages quality posting, while discouraging brainless memes, martyrs, trolls and cheaters. I'm proud to be a member of TeamLiquid for exactly this.
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
No you're stream was disabled because you stream cheat.
ah, i've been looking for proof of this regarding deezer
where is the proof of this regarding deezer?
(everything I have seen suggests he doesn't.)
I've also been looking for some sort of proof regarding the accusations against Deezer and have come up empty handed. I even went to the extent of looking through other forums like reddit and d2jsp.
From as far as I can tell Deezer is a legitimate player who just also happens to be very BM. I'm not sure why people are treating him differently than other "well known" BM players...
On July 02 2011 17:26 Shai wrote: IdrA was banned due to BM towards a suspected stream cheater. Seems to me TL's opinion on this is not so cut and dry.
Oh yeah, it was Cruncher, not Minigun (although I'm quite sure Minigun has sniped him in the past ^^)
On July 02 2011 17:26 Shai wrote: IdrA was banned due to BM towards a suspected stream cheater. Seems to me TL's opinion on this is not so cut and dry.
BM on one's personal stream is different than BM on the forums themselves. (e.g. TL implemented the Advisory rating system.)
OT: Thanks for summing up the situation, I had missed the last few days :/
Imo, closing the thread in question is just continuation of the precedent set by closing countless combat-ex threads in the past, complete consistency from TL, just how I like it.
I've often considered renaming my SC2 account to CombatEX just so that my games are always entertaining. If I ever encountered someone who didn't hate him, I'd just explain to them how much I need this win and ask them to leave.
Doesn't even seem like I'd be misrepresenting the guy all that much...
On July 02 2011 17:26 Shai wrote: IdrA was banned due to BM towards a suspected stream cheater. Seems to me TL's opinion on this is not so cut and dry.
More like you need to read properly. He said BM on one's own personal stream.
On July 02 2011 14:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Basically, the first thing that was going to happen, was that Combat[EX] was going to play IdrA in a show match for 140$ casted by Destiny and CatZ, but then something happened
Yeah, what happened was they never ran the idea past IdrA.
I think the site's stance on this matter is perfectly reasonable. I suggest that they try to get their explanation out there in front of people whenever they close such a thread, because it's going to take a while for the readers to catch up with where they are on it.
Edit: I too would like to know what evidence there is for Deezer stream cheating.
On July 02 2011 14:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Basically, the first thing that was going to happen, was that Combat[EX] was going to play IdrA in a show match for 140$ casted by Destiny and CatZ, but then something happened
Yeah, what happened was they never ran the idea past IdrA.
I think the site's stance on this matter is perfectly reasonable. I suggest that they try to get their explanation out there in front of people whenever they close such a thread, because it's going to take a while for the readers to catch up with where they are on it.
Edit: I too would like to know what evidence there is for Deezer stream cheating.
On July 02 2011 17:26 Shai wrote: IdrA was banned due to BM towards a suspected stream cheater. Seems to me TL's opinion on this is not so cut and dry.
More like you need to read properly. He said BM on one's own personal stream.
Furthermore, idras extended ban was not due to bm but actions on his twitter re tl mods.
From what i can tell, not having encountered evidence but just what was posited here re: deezers stream, he was not banned for stream cheating but rathere suspected stream cheating.
I understand TL's stance toward players who use hacks/cheats in SC when they decide whether or not to list a user's stream, but TL policing stream sniping/stream watching is a lot like me leaving the keys in the ignition of an ashton martin in the middle of the city and blaming the thief.
It's the streamers responsibility to handle their stream, not TL or any other forum, with things like turning screen black/mute sc2/wait before finding another game. I think Incontrol does this already. And JTV has a stream delay which seems a must for any live tourny streaming.
For every Deezer and He-who-shall-not-be-named who go under the microscope, how many more are stream cheating just a little more... careful? It's better to accept stream cheating as an inevitability, not a possibility, and move forward from there.
thread started out great but ended up (and will continue) to be a place where people argue "combat isn't that bad" and deezer "was never truly caught"
you guys realize how much you are playing into the problem?
Combat unabashedly admits/talks about cheating. He flames everyone stream or no. He is a nuisance and is a terrible part of the community.
Deezer stream snipes and talks shit every single time you get him harassing you. Actually, for clarification he sometimes is manner but that is 1 in 10 games or so. Does he cheat? You kidding right? When I black out my stream I am something like 10-2 against him. When I don't he magically knows more about you and wins more. I will say this: He doesn't do it ALL the time. Sometimes he just snipes you.. but yes, he cheats.
And honestly ANY cheating should make you a bad person in the community not some kind of endearing one. And even if these guys didn't cheat they aren't "bm" they are harassment cases. They spam you, they get others to spam you.. they call you any and everything they can think of to try and upset you. Not that big of a deal I agree.. but why the FUCK does that somehow make them cool to people in our community? That is why threads like this and others need to pop up.. we as a community shouldn't tolerate this stuff.
I don't know about other people, but I do know he doesn't cheat vs me. He does snipe me, which can get annoying, but he doesn't cheat, I've checked replays and so on and so on. But like I said I can only speak for myself. Yes deezer does talk shit, but so do other people, he's not the only one who does it.
At one moment I'm reading an endless sea of criticisms of professionalism concerning all the major SC2 leagues, and then I see threads like this calling for more Combat-EX and Deezer? Are you kidding me?
Completely agreed, but I won't lie and say I wasn't interested in seeing who the ppl were (combatex/deezer) behind their nicknames. After my first dose though and maybe an hour in to it I was tired of the conversation and won't be tuning into any other events which I hope do not take place.
Incontrol I am sorry but I can't just take a players word for it, they are too fallible and it's too easy to rationalize losses as "he is a cheater and he knew what I was doing". Especially when it's just "some of the time he's cheating". Why is he cheating rather than just getting lucky? I couldn't believe it unless I saw some sort of ridiculous replays. I don't even know why you mention stream sniping and BM.
I just don't think it's right for us to ban people based purely on speculation. We never did that in broodwar, and for good reason.
On July 03 2011 02:51 travis wrote: I just don't think it's right for us to ban people based purely on speculation. We never did that in broodwar, and for good reason.
I'm a bit confused - an early administrator stated Deezer was stream banned for stream cheating and that TL does not ban for BM.
Cheaters should be banned and removed from the TL community of course.
On July 03 2011 02:51 travis wrote: I just don't think it's right for us to ban people based purely on speculation. We never did that in broodwar, and for good reason.
I'm a bit confused - an early administrator stated Deezer was stream banned for stream cheating and that TL does not ban for BM.
Cheaters should be banned and removed from the TL community of course.
What are you confused about. I am saying that none of us ever saw any proof. If there was proof it wasn't made public.
We'll never change our stance on cheaters to get some extra stream viewers or some more traffic. I completely understand why other sites want to give them attention though, it's a lot of hits and attention.
On July 03 2011 02:51 travis wrote: I just don't think it's right for us to ban people based purely on speculation. We never did that in broodwar, and for good reason.
I'm a bit confused - an early administrator stated Deezer was stream banned for stream cheating and that TL does not ban for BM.
Cheaters should be banned and removed from the TL community of course.
What are you confused about. I am saying that none of us ever saw any proof. If there was proof it wasn't made public.
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
travis can spend his time defending deezer/combatex ... I've heard of people doing worse things. I on the other hand won't shed a tear when a guy like deezer isn't given the benefit of the doubt. Also, we are an online community SOMETIMES you have to act without perfect evidence. It isn't perfect but it's what we got and that is fine.
On July 03 2011 05:28 iNcontroL wrote: travis can spend his time defending deezer/combatex ... I've heard of people doing worse things. I on the other hand won't shed a tear when a guy like deezer isn't given the benefit of the doubt. Also, we are an online community SOMETIMES you have to act without perfect evidence. It isn't perfect but it's what we got and that is fine.
First, they came for the possible stream cheaters and I didn't speak out because I was not a stream cheater.
Then they came for people who had maybe once-upon-a-time been BM and I didn't speak out because I am never BM.
Then they came for the satirical blog posters and I didn't speak out because eff those dee bags.
Then they came for the dubious reply posters, and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Yes and he shares an account with a confirmed hacker but you know, we don't have proof that that was him either so.. probably not y'know?
"proof" ?? He has stream cheated vs me many times. I'm talking proxy gates outside my base without scouting and blind countering different techs.. gimme a break lol
hmm well I haven't seen any of that... i often watched destiny and minigun and catz stream and whenever deezer sniped them it never seemed like he was cheating, you've got replays? of proxy gates... most likely on 4 player maps (not shakura)
also blind countering often happens pvp and you should know that
anyway I'm just saying from every game i've seen on deezer he didn't seem to cheat at all
You can claim something, but without proof I'm not going to believe you. You might not be lying iNcontroL, but only with proof of Deezer cheating I'll be believing it.
On July 02 2011 15:30 NB wrote: So: TL hates cheater, bm-er -> they have their rights to ban people they dont like on their website!
We only have a problem with cheaters, not BMers. People bm all they want on their streams and we have no problem with it - most of my favorite streams are the rage/bm fueled ones. Lot's of bming goes on TL and theres obviously a grey area with what is in good fun vs. malicious.
without going into the combatex situation, i have two major problems with team liquid's stance on the situation:
On July 02 2011 13:43 -_- wrote:For others, however, Starcraft is a career, and this drastically changes how cheating must be dealt with. A salaried Teamliquid Administrator can't approach cheaters like a hobbyist might want them to. To use an analogy, if a referee is paid off to fix a pickup Basketball game at the YMCA, the end result is a funny story. However, when Tim Donaghy was paid to fix National Basketball Association games, David Stern had a gigantic scandal on his hands. That's the position Teamliquid Administrators are in; by virtue of the popularity of Teamliquid.net they've arguably been conscripted into positions as commissioners of Starcraft 2. This is why they can't act like the hobbyist wants them to act.
this paragraph makes you out to be gods. who's paying you? i'm fairly certain it's the community and advertisers (who are interested in having the largest viewership/community) and not blizzard. blizzard is the referees and administrators of starcraft 2. they're the only ones with the power to ban people from battle.net and make decisions regarding how to handle cheaters in the sc2 community at large. i think i can point to the recent situation between huk, tlo, and blizzard as a situation where blizzard disagreed with tl and tl had to acknowledge the mistake and assure it won't happen again.
you have power over the teamliquid community, which is an extremely large part of the sc2 community, but it isn't everything. generally you are beholden to the members of your community (much like blizzard is beholden to those who purchase their game). on the teamliquid community there is a large amount of professional gamers, many of who no doubt agree with your policy on cheating, however the larger makeup of your community is likely made up of more casual gamers (i don't have actual numbers but the number of viewers on any stream you pull up could not account for a community of strictly pro-gamers). this doesn't mean these casual gamers support cheating (in fact i think a large amount despise it), but teamliquid then becomes not an arbitor of rules (which it did in the combatex situation and others), but rather a broadcaster or news source. it has the rights to not broadcast or publish anything it feels doesn't agree with their perception of what's good for its community, but i think to try to pretend it doesn't exist is foolish.
overall, people wouldn't come to this site if they didn't find some entertainment value in it. if you don't like to discuss cheaters that's fine, and you certainly don't need to promote them, but disciplinary action against non-cheaters discussing them crosses a line for me. closing threads about such issues is fine, but i think if you do that you need to redirect those community members to a place they can discuss such a topic. meanwhile, banning and warning members on such issues seems extreme (though if you wanna punish me for not being a brown-nosing sycophant like so much of this community go ahead). they just want to participate in the community and find this aspect of it fun.
i love watching high level pro starcraft. tournaments are great. most of what you do for the community is terrific. but just because you close your eyes doesn't make cheating and other aspects people find entertaining go away. you're a major provider for that community, and it's totally your call not to broadcast things. but people do find this stuff entertaining. to use a couple examples, everyone knows the harlem globetrotters are rigged but this doesn't mean they don't sell tickets, likewise wwe also has fixed and scripted matches and most major networks do not broadcast their events for a variety of reasons including the fixed nature of the "sport." but the celebrities of these events still appear on every network's talk show programs and are allowed some acknowledgement as an alternative element that exists in the world. whether you want to support this element in terms of announcing broadcasting on the sidebar or linking to streams is your call (and for what it's worth i do think you made the right one for the recent situation), but limiting what can be discussed crosses the line (though i do think stepping in during flamewars, redirecting/closing redundant or off-topic conversations, or otherwise moderating language people may find offensive to be totally fine). this is a community which implies democracy and listening to people's needs and desires. don't treat your power as a dictatorship.
which brings me to my second and final point.
On July 02 2011 13:43 -_- wrote:because of the popularity of Starcraft 2, there now exist legitimate alternative communities where they can have the discussions they want.
what are these alternatives? if you want to pretend you're so open, please link them in your original post if not on the sidebar or some easy to find location. maybe this will create competition for you, and i can understand apprehension about that, but if you're so good as to claim a position as administrator over the entire sc2 community, what harm can competition cause? or to be less facetious, you aspire to be the best, best means an awareness of the competition and the ability to standout and rise above it, not a quest to become the only resource by ignoring everything else. if you are the best resource, providing links to them creates no threat to you, and if they start to threaten you it symbolizes that you may want to change up something about the way you conduct business.
this paragraph makes you out to be gods. who's paying you? i'm fairly certain it's the community and advertisers (who are interested in having the largest viewership/community) and not blizzard. blizzard is the referees and administrators of starcraft 2. they're the only ones with the power to ban people from battle.net and make decisions regarding how to handle cheaters in the sc2 community at large. i think i can point to the recent situation between huk, tlo, and blizzard as a situation where blizzard disagreed with tl and tl had to acknowledge the mistake and assure it won't happen again.
You assumed these staff members are paid at all, and you assume or presume the values or interests of those that sponsor them. The only one acting God is you pretending to know what business go on between people that doesn't include you. I'm all for power to the community, but you're setting a line that is meant to separate two entities when they are one. The intergrity of the site goes hand-in-hand with the community's reputation and thus the staff and thus the sponsors' interests and reputation.
If the site doesn't support or want cheaters. Then that's their decision, you are right, they aren't B.net and if Deezer or CombatEx want to stream their games, they can do it without TL. No one is playing God, you're just assuming that a decision made by TL makes your own decisions and that's your fault based on your misinterpretation. Ask Combat-Ex to stream, he doesn't need TL.
you have power over the teamliquid community, which is an extremely large part of the sc2 community, but it isn't everything. generally you are beholden to the members of your community (much like blizzard is beholden to those who purchase their game). on the teamliquid community there is a large amount of professional gamers, many of who no doubt agree with your policy on cheating, however the larger makeup of your community is likely made up of more casual gamers (i don't have actual numbers but the number of viewers on any stream you pull up could not account for a community of strictly pro-gamers). this doesn't mean these casual gamers support cheating (in fact i think a large amount despise it), but teamliquid then becomes not an arbitor of rules (which it did in the combatex situation and others), but rather a broadcaster or news source. it has the rights to not broadcast or publish anything it feels doesn't agree with their perception of what's good for its community, but i think to try to pretend it doesn't exist is foolish.
They're not pretending it doesn't exist, in fact, this proactive move shows that it does exist and it is not acceptable by a pillar of the StarCraft II scene and community. Where you got the notion that they're sweeping it under the rug in beyond my limited understanding. I bolded a statement you might want to actually doing more research on for it be taken more seriously.
overall, people wouldn't come to this site if they didn't find some entertainment value in it. if you don't like to discuss cheaters that's fine, and you certainly don't need to promote them, but disciplinary action against non-cheaters discussing them crosses a line for me. closing threads about such issues is fine, but i think if you do that you need to redirect those community members to a place they can discuss such a topic. meanwhile, banning and warning members on such issues seems extreme (though if you wanna punish me for not being a brown-nosing sycophant like so much of this community go ahead). they just want to participate in the community and find this aspect of it fun.
Information is entertainment. The problem here is that you are strictly viewing one form of entertainment and then generalizing it over an assume majority of people. Big step there and a poor one at that: TL doesn't need to redirect people, the streamer who got banned should be redirecting those who are interested. If he does something that obviously violates the rules and views of TL (which are pretty simple and straight-forward), then it is his job to follow-up, not TL. Your bolded statement is practically matyring no?
i love watching high level pro starcraft. tournaments are great. most of what you do for the community is terrific. but just because you close your eyes doesn't make cheating and other aspects people find entertaining go away. you're a major provider for that community, and it's totally your call not to broadcast things. but people do find this stuff entertaining. to use a couple examples, everyone knows the harlem globetrotters are rigged but this doesn't mean they don't sell tickets, likewise wwe also has fixed and scripted matches and most major networks do not broadcast their events for a variety of reasons including the fixed nature of the "sport." but the celebrities of these events still appear on every network's talk show programs and are allowed some acknowledgement as an alternative element that exists in the world. whether you want to support this element in terms of announcing broadcasting on the sidebar or linking to streams is your call (and for what it's worth i do think you made the right one for the recent situation), but limiting what can be discussed crosses the line (though i do think stepping in during flamewars, redirecting/closing redundant or off-topic conversations, or otherwise moderating language people may find offensive to be totally fine). this is a community which implies democracy and listening to people's needs and desires. don't treat your power as a dictatorship.
The dictatorship are those networks that, despite fooling their viewers, still allow these scripted characters and actors of sports to come on those shows. However, if TL is a dictatorship, they are only within their realm as you have said and you can leave freely just like you can stop watching T.V. Don't play the victim when there is nothing there and don't "stick it to the man", when he is only preserving what truly matters in the end and because of their stature, something you've hardly considered thus far (hardly).
They aren't limiting what can be discussed, they are limiting what promotes or activates accepted views of Combat-Ex, these views are often misinformed and of poor judgement, often lacking a good memory to recall all the bullshit and harm one has done as a person, player and previous representative.
which brings me to my second and final point. what are these alternatives? if you want to pretend you're so open, please link them in your original post if not on the sidebar or some easy to find location. maybe this will create competition for you, and i can understand apprehension about that, but if you're so good as to claim a position as administrator over the entire sc2 community, what harm can competition cause? or to be less facetious, you aspire to be the best, best means an awareness of the competition and the ability to standout and rise above it, not a quest to become the only resource by ignoring everything else. if you are the best resource, providing links to them creates no threat to you, and if they start to threaten you it symbolizes that you may want to change up something about the way you conduct business.
Use Google and inform yourself. Why ask for help for a site that you disagree so strongly with.
P.S: -_- is a member like mostly everyone else here :3
the original post makes mention of teamliquid mods being paid (specifically refering to them as salaried), so that was the source of my information, any inaccuracies in -_-'s original post that i took as fact are probably my own fault for not researching and if he's not a mod like you say, then i would like to point out that one of my major problems i have with this community is people acting like mods when they're not, which your response falls under. the rest of your argument i feel i responded to accurately in my first post, in particular if team liquid wants to pretend they're bigger administrators than blizzard in terms of the sc2 community they should provide links to other like minded sites (or at least allow their members to) rather than banning a user for posting details where one can watch combatex's stream. i'm fairly certain blizzard's boards would never do this.
the original post makes mention of teamliquid mods being paid (specifically refering to them as salaried), so that was the source of my information, any inaccuracies in -_-'s original post that i took as fact are probably my own fault for not researching and if he's not a mod like you say, then i would like to point out that one of my major problems i have with this community is people acting like mods when they're not, which your response falls under. the rest of your argument i feel i responded to accurately in my first post, in particular if team liquid wants to pretend they're bigger administrators than blizzard in terms of the sc2 community they should provide links to other like minded sites (or at least allow their members to) rather than banning a user for posting details where one can watch combatex's stream. i'm fairly certain blizzard's boards would never do this.
Staff aren't paid (minus a very selected few). Blizzard's boards are hardly moderated. To compare them with TL is laughable (To compare them with Reddit is equally laughable). Being proactive and contributory to the site is not acting like a staff member, it's just showing how much you enjoy your stay and support the staff's decision.
You consider it otherwise because you're cynical and one doesn't agree with your misguided views. -_- is not acting like a mod, he's acting like a veteran and a valued member, take note.
As for Team Liquid acting as if they're bigger administrators is equally a distortion of views. They're acting as admins of their site. They don't support Combat-Ex or anything related to him. They don't want to be a platform for any form of advertising for him because of what he represents.
That's their right because it's their site. Go on the B. Net forums and advertise and talk about Combat-Ex there.
P.S: Should and would, change your absolutes and you'll soon find yourself seeing the world a lot more clear.
the original post makes mention of teamliquid mods being paid (specifically refering to them as salaried), so that was the source of my information, any inaccuracies in -_-'s original post that i took as fact are probably my own fault for not researching and if he's not a mod like you say, then i would like to point out that one of my major problems i have with this community is people acting like mods when they're not, which your response falls under. the rest of your argument i feel i responded to accurately in my first post, in particular if team liquid wants to pretend they're bigger administrators than blizzard in terms of the sc2 community they should provide links to other like minded sites (or at least allow their members to) rather than banning a user for posting details where one can watch combatex's stream. i'm fairly certain blizzard's boards would never do this.
Staff aren't paid (minus a very selected few). Blizzard's boards are hardly moderated. To compare them with TL is laughable (To compare them with Reddit is equally laughable). Being proactive and contributory to the site is not acting like a staff member, it's just showing how much you enjoy your stay and support the staff's decision.
You consider it otherwise because you're cynical and one doesn't agree with your misguided views. -_- is not acting like a mod, he's acting like a veteran and a valued member, take note.
As for Team Liquid acting as if they're bigger administrators is equally a distortion of views. They're acting as admins of their site. They don't support Combat-Ex or anything related to him. They don't want to be a platform for any form of advertising for him because of what he represents.
That's their right because it's their site. Go on the B. Net forums and advertise and talk about Combat-Ex there.
P.S: Should and would, change your absolutes and you'll soon find yourself seeing the world a lot more clear.
I found this thread from a link a mod posted addressing why various combatex threads have been closed (which imo they largely should have been, though i woulda leaned towards consolidation of them rather than closing them). any inaccuracies in the original post, really should be addressed by a mod if he or she wants to link to such a post, as they were not, yet they were linked to, they can kinda be accepted to be true (even though as we've both pointed out (though you seem to constantly ignore that -_- originally said tl mods are "salaried" i merely repeated what he said) there are problems with -_-'s original statements).
i'm not being cynical, i'm offering constructive criticism. i've noticed you and many in this community cannot tell the difference. another common mistake you make (and many on the site do too) is that being a veteran rather than an admin makes you an authority on matters. tell that argument to pete rose or any of the baseball veterans who used steroids currently sorting out hall of fame eligibility with mlb. high post count makes you an authority on nothing, and boards with an attitude that it does have severe problems with moderation as they alienate new members, grow stale, and become obsolete which i fear is a fate which may befall tl.
teamliquid is not the greatest moderated board. it is moderated extremely inconsistently with little explanation from actual mods explaining their actions with frequent disciplinary actions taken on those who disagree while people who pad thread counts by uselessly praising tl mods are allowed to roam free (i'm looking at you anyone who's made a post that amounted to: "not worthy of a thread," let the mods handle and redirect, or offer a link that redirects yourself and have the mods fold in the original "not worthy of a thread" post). yes, blizzard and reddit are hillariously undermodded, but they're consistently modded. though i feel calling tl overmodded is an extreme, i do feel it to be at least inconsistently modded; though you seem to have no problems with their moderation so you're welcome to keep your opinion. i'm merely saying how i feel and you or anyone is welcome to disagree.
i love what teamliquid does. the only other site that does what teamliquid does currently (offering a message board and posting links to streams) that i could find is wellplayed.org. which is still in beta. i'm merely expressing concern that i don't like the attitude of many of the mods and community members associated with teamliquid, and will probably be switching my attention to wp if tl continues to transfer power to veterans rather than make statements themselves (as evidenced by how i found this original thread).
i think i have nothing more to say to you, torte. fundamentally we disagree, but i harbor no animosity towards you. please do not comment any further to me personally unless you think your statements would be beneficial to the community at large. most of your nitpicks seem to specifically draw attention to my more minor points and point out inconsistencies in -_-'s original post that were not my own observations.
It says TL admins are salaried, not Mods. Start with your own misreadings before blaming others.
I've already hit on all your main points in quotes. Each paragraph is quoted, how that is "missing the main point" is beyond my understanding. Best of luck.
I thought deezer was caught with demo proof. Didn't he admit to playing on a known hacker account and when replays were checked that showed cheating he claimed it was the "other dude"?
After comparing his hotkeys and APM from his deezer account it was proven to in fact be him playing on the hacker account. Pretty sure thats proof enough, but maybe I'm wrong.
As for people being outcasted due to extreme BM/sniping/harassing, I'm all for it! Some parts of the community, however, seem to flock to these types of players. They enjoy the "deezer" type players and their antics. Not sure what that says about our community, but people like deezer should be ignored.
On July 03 2011 05:28 iNcontroL wrote: I on the other hand won't shed a tear when a guy like deezer isn't given the benefit of the doubt. Also, we are an online community SOMETIMES you have to act without perfect evidence. It isn't perfect but it's what we got and that is fine.
My only problem with what you said is consistency. If this is your stance and you are acting based on "imperfect" information then you should be doing it to everyone that fits into the category. So anyone that has ever gotten lucky with random proxy gates should be banned. Even if there is not conclusive evidence they are actually cheaters and they just try and get lucky with proxy gates (insert w.e cheese). TL would have to ban a lot more people than just Deezer who are "questionable cheaters." If they just banned people like Deezer, then it would not really be about cheating at that point but an issue of character (that people don't like Deezer).
If people like Deezer "harass" you somewhere else, like BNet, then is it TL's policy to ban people for actions outside of their site? I think on SoTG Kennegit said (in reference to the Idra and Cruncher issue) that if you are saying something outside of their site, they don't ban you.
Personally I am completely for the idea of giving people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe because I am American and our political philosophy is suppose to be based on innocent until proven guilty. I don't jump to conclusions until solid evidence is produced. Without at the very least substantial evidence you can make bad and flat out wrong decisions about members of the community. It is a HUGE deal for a person of the community to get banned from TL since it is the hub of the Foreign community.
If substantial evidence is produced though and someone ends up on the TL hacker database, then bring the Ban Hammer like an Angry fist of God.
On July 03 2011 05:28 iNcontroL wrote: I on the other hand won't shed a tear when a guy like deezer isn't given the benefit of the doubt. Also, we are an online community SOMETIMES you have to act without perfect evidence. It isn't perfect but it's what we got and that is fine.
My only problem with what you said is consistency. If this is your stance and you are acting based on "imperfect" information then you should be doing it to everyone that fits into the category. So anyone that has ever gotten lucky with random proxy gates should be banned. Even if there is not conclusive evidence they are actually cheaters and they just try and get lucky with proxy gates (insert w.e cheese). TL would have to ban a lot more people than just Deezer who are "questionable cheaters." If they just banned people like Deezer, then it would not really be about cheating at that point but an issue of character (that people don't like Deezer).
If people like Deezer "harass" you somewhere else, like BNet, then is it TL's policy to ban people for actions outside of their site? I think on SoTG Kennegit said (in reference to the Idra and Cruncher issue) that if you are saying something outside of their site, they don't ban you.
Personally I am completely for the idea of giving people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe because I am American and our political philosophy is suppose to be based on innocent until proven guilty. I don't jump to conclusions until solid evidence is produced. Without at the very least substantial evidence you can make bad and flat out wrong decisions about members of the community. It is a HUGE deal for a person of the community to get banned from TL since it is the hub of the Foreign community.
If substantial evidence is produced though and someone ends up on the TL hacker database, then bring the Ban Hammer like an Angry fist of God.
you seem new here so a lot of what you said isn't necessarily stupid just completely uninformed.
1. No. That doesn't make logical sense at all. It isn't like you can look at a situation, assess that because I am acting on imperfect information that needs to be cross-applied to all concepts in life. Deezer is not some random dude who blind countered me. And it is utterly mindless for you to try and argue that.
2. TL does ban people for their actions outside of TL. This has been done several times... you just are new around here and don't know how things work yet. Stop spending your time defending cheaters and your stay should be fairly long.
3. No it isn't a huge deal to get banned from TL.. you make a new account. It IS a huge deal to cheat. It is also a huge deal to be nothing but a nuisance and harass everyone in the community. These are all things that describe combatex/deezer and yet you want to apply the "innocent until proven guilty" clause on a internet forum. Sorry, that isn't realistic sometimes. Obviously TL doesn't act on imperfect action ALL THE TIME but in some cases people earn the treatment.. and this is one of them.
As I see it, having conversations on the level of recognition that we give to cheaters is pointless. TL will not promote cheaters, and it its in TL's interest not to link users that come to TL wishing to watch combat ex for entertainment to places where he is publicised. We are a competitive community, and one of our goals should always to preserve a competitive spirit, I watch and play SC for enjoyment, but that enjoyment is derived from competing and self improvement. Any person that repeatedly cheats is a joke, and needs to be squashed utterly, they are no longer members of the SC community, they have earned there place in a community where the admission fee is the Oblivion hack.
On July 03 2011 05:28 iNcontroL wrote: I on the other hand won't shed a tear when a guy like deezer isn't given the benefit of the doubt. Also, we are an online community SOMETIMES you have to act without perfect evidence. It isn't perfect but it's what we got and that is fine.
My only problem with what you said is consistency. If this is your stance and you are acting based on "imperfect" information then you should be doing it to everyone that fits into the category. So anyone that has ever gotten lucky with random proxy gates should be banned. Even if there is not conclusive evidence they are actually cheaters and they just try and get lucky with proxy gates (insert w.e cheese). TL would have to ban a lot more people than just Deezer who are "questionable cheaters." If they just banned people like Deezer, then it would not really be about cheating at that point but an issue of character (that people don't like Deezer).
If people like Deezer "harass" you somewhere else, like BNet, then is it TL's policy to ban people for actions outside of their site? I think on SoTG Kennegit said (in reference to the Idra and Cruncher issue) that if you are saying something outside of their site, they don't ban you.
Personally I am completely for the idea of giving people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe because I am American and our political philosophy is suppose to be based on innocent until proven guilty. I don't jump to conclusions until solid evidence is produced. Without at the very least substantial evidence you can make bad and flat out wrong decisions about members of the community. It is a HUGE deal for a person of the community to get banned from TL since it is the hub of the Foreign community.
If substantial evidence is produced though and someone ends up on the TL hacker database, then bring the Ban Hammer like an Angry fist of God.
you seem new here so a lot of what you said isn't necessarily stupid just completely uninformed.
1. No. That doesn't make logical sense at all. It isn't like you can look at a situation, assess that because I am acting on imperfect information that needs to be cross-applied to all concepts in life. Deezer is not some random dude who blind countered me. And it is utterly mindless for you to try and argue that.
2. TL does ban people for their actions outside of TL. This has been done several times... you just are new around here and don't know how things work yet. Stop spending your time defending cheaters and your stay should be fairly long.
3. No it isn't a huge deal to get banned from TL.. you make a new account. It IS a huge deal to cheat. It is also a huge deal to be nothing but a nuisance and harass everyone in the community. These are all things that describe combatex/deezer and yet you want to apply the "innocent until proven guilty" clause on a internet forum. Sorry, that isn't realistic sometimes. Obviously TL doesn't act on imperfect action ALL THE TIME but in some cases people earn the treatment.. and this is one of them.
See, incontrol just make it easy for everyone, go look for that replay where he proxy gated you without scouting your position, upload it. BAM Deezer = cheater and we can terminate this ridiculous discussion
I know it's annoying having to deal with him when all you wanna do is get some practice games in on ladder, but stuff like "being a nuisance" and "blind-countering my tech" doesn't qualify as Kennigit and others have pointed out earlier in this thread.
I have no problem with the policy, it makes total sense. But until TL starts locking threads about tournaments with TT1 playing, they're complete hypocrites. Especially since combatex's cheating is far more "innocuous", it's not like he used maphacks in a serious tournament setting.
I have no problem with the policy, it makes total sense. But until TL starts locking threads about tournaments with TT1 playing, they're complete hypocrites. Especially since combatex's cheating is far more "innocuous", it's not like he used maphacks in a serious tournament setting.
I thought you were talking about Suggy when you mentioned cheating in CSL. I don't think he should be sanctioned either, he was blatantly caught doubling up accounts in Csl matches and gave the admins utter shit when caught. I wholeheartedly agree with you OP.
I don't understand why they wouldn't allow Deezer to stream. I can understand Combat, but I haven't seen any proof of Deezer cheating, like others have said in the thread. Minigun and Fayth get sniped by him but said he doesn't cheat but then incontrol says he does. Who are they supposed to believe?
Btw, weren't TT1, Spades, Dimaga, Haypro etc. caught cheating in some way? Why are they all allowed to stream on TL?
On July 04 2011 06:20 MechKing wrote: I don't understand why they wouldn't allow Deezer to stream. I can understand Combat, but I haven't seen any proof of Deezer cheating, like others have said in the thread. Minigun and Fayth get sniped by him but said he doesn't cheat but then incontrol says he does. Who are they supposed to believe?
Btw, weren't TT1, Spades, Dimaga, Haypro etc. caught cheating in some way? Why are they all allowed to stream on TL?
Hot_Bid explaining why TT1 was forgiven. Probably the same for the other guys you mentioned.
Trying looking at this from a non-internet perspective and their a-hole attitudes just wouldn't be put up with.
I really feel bad for the streaming pros when they are constantly being spammed in game, pulled into group, into chats etc..
People just wouldn't do that sort of annoying behavior in a face to face situation. It is rude/childish wastes the time of the streamer, and makes the steam viewing experience less enjoyable for the silent majority of non-ahole community members.
The other part cheating stream cheat etc.. should be handled like steroids in baseball, first time a big suspension, next a lifetime ban. Grand Masters means something for people making their living out of e-sports and to have admitted cheaters taking a GM sport is a big deal to people working hard to survive as a SC2 pro.
All in all we should have to excuse these a-holes they should act like civil humans.
completely agree. it bothers me to no end people think tl should promote cheaters and players who in general give the SC community a bad name. Also tl is against cheating and stream cheating particularly so why should they allow to have it happen on their site and sanctioned?
Harassment and BM aren't reasons for banning a stream, but I think stalking would be a fair addition. Plenty of people stream-snipe, Deezer stalks. I've seen him spend hours upon hours doing it. No, it's not illegal or whatever but it's severely disrespectful/stressful to the other streamers to only play him hour upon hour, even while taking breaks. That's why Incontrol said to the other guy 'this isn't some random guy'. Incontrol knows Deezer pretty well. Incontrol probbly never planned or wanted to but hey it is what it is. My point is that whether or not he cheats, he goes above and beyond the usual unapproved practices. If it makes everyone so annoyed that he doesn't explicitly violate rules, well an addendum to the rules banning "repeated and known stream-stalking personalities" would clear that up.
On July 03 2011 01:01 iNcontroL wrote: thread started out great but ended up (and will continue) to be a place where people argue "combat isn't that bad" and deezer "was never truly caught"
you guys realize how much you are playing into the problem?
Combat unabashedly admits/talks about cheating. He flames everyone stream or no. He is a nuisance and is a terrible part of the community.
Deezer stream snipes and talks shit every single time you get him harassing you. Actually, for clarification he sometimes is manner but that is 1 in 10 games or so. Does he cheat? You kidding right? When I black out my stream I am something like 10-2 against him. When I don't he magically knows more about you and wins more. I will say this: He doesn't do it ALL the time. Sometimes he just snipes you.. but yes, he cheats.
And honestly ANY cheating should make you a bad person in the community not some kind of endearing one. And even if these guys didn't cheat they aren't "bm" they are harassment cases. They spam you, they get others to spam you.. they call you any and everything they can think of to try and upset you. Not that big of a deal I agree.. but why the FUCK does that somehow make them cool to people in our community? That is why threads like this and others need to pop up.. we as a community shouldn't tolerate this stuff.
I'm not against Deezer having his stream banned for BM and harassment.
However, it's wrong to accuse without concrete proof. Have a look at the hacker database and there are many people who just accuse with circumstantial evidence.
Frankly, if there's any fault with the TL policy, it's that cheaters are allowed back if they've 'rehabilitated'. If you're dumb enough to cheat you deserve to get locked out for good. I never understood why the community as a whole has allowed cheaters back so many times. Plenty of the assholes who do it today were doing it 10 years ago in BW and everyone knew it. Shit don't change.
allowing people like that back, even if it's after a lengthy time away, makes it seem as if cheating is just a natural part of the scene and that those cheaters are more important to the scene than the people who miraculously refrain from doing it