Im Agnostic btw, cant deny the existence of a god, but i can say i deny the concept of religion
Christianity and Faith - Page 5
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Oh boy, a religion thread <_< Remember to keep discussion civil. I'll be monitoring this heavily - empyrean. | ||
Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
Im Agnostic btw, cant deny the existence of a god, but i can say i deny the concept of religion | ||
Sinborn
United States275 Posts
The trick is to keep an open and analytic mind. The absence of guidelines is often the absence of guidance in general. Christianity does not float on ignorance alone, and unless you think your parents are absolute idiots, give some credence to the notion that they're in the same deal for a reason beyond simple upbringing. | ||
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 22 2011 08:57 MaxField wrote: There is no reason to mock my post. I am a christian and i have had my prayers answered many times, and if he is doubting, then i believe this is a possible solution to his problem. It is obvious that you do not believe in what i do, but making fun of them adds nothing to this thread. except some atheists are so blind in their unbelief that whatever you say won't do anything... essentially. my family and I had several circumstances where our prayers have been answered/miracles happened, but it's essentially pointless to talk to an atheist about it. However that aside, indeed, he has no reason to bash at us. On June 22 2011 08:10 Human Centipede wrote: Actually the most likely outcome is that nothing is going to happen, but a Christian will probably attribute silence and nothingness to a supernatural feeling described along the lines of God touched my heart in that moment and I realised that although He doesn't always answer in an audible way blah blah blah. Reminds me of this: Why is it that God doesn’t answer prayers? It has been said that God always answers prayer. Sometimes He says "yes" sometimes he says "no" and sometimes He says "wait a while" [at statistically the same rate as praying to the moon or your favourite stuffed toy]. Sometimes God will answer a prayer in a different way than we have first anticipated [hey, that’s exactly what happens sometimes when I beg to my stuffed toy]. The fact is, many of us pray for things that God knows would only hinder our walk with Him [like say, a cure for cancer] so for our own good He withholds them from us. When we are first born into God’s kingdom we generally get our prayers answered immediately [there’s thousands of studies which prove this] but as we grow God teaches us patience by letting us wait. Please keep this topic aimed at helping OP's "problem" (to make him go through it better, or in the case of the atheists, to leave the Church), it is not a place to become a full scale bullshit of a religious war between the ideas of atheists and those who believe in a "God" of any kind... i.e. this isn't the thread to mock other races. just help the OP get through his problem, anything else WILL lead to the thread discussion becoming uncivilized and will become a flamewar. (that's what always happens...) | ||
Human Centipede
14 Posts
On June 22 2011 08:57 MaxField wrote: There is no reason to mock my post. I am a christian and i have had my prayers answered many times, and if he is doubting, then i believe this is a possible solution to his problem. It is obvious that you do not believe in what i do, but making fun of them adds nothing to this thread. Not mocking, but stating fact. In order to not derail the thread (although what we are discussing is highly relevant), I have put the example in the spoilers. + Show Spoiler + Does God answer prayers? According to believers, the answer is certainly yes. For example, at any Christian bookstore you can find hundreds of books about the power of prayer. On the Internet you can find thousands of testimonials to the many ways that God works in our lives today. Even large city newspapers and national magazines run stories about answered prayers. God seems to be interacting with our world and answering millions of prayers on planet Earth every day. God's power often can be quite dramatic. Take, for example, this story from Marilyn Hickey Ministries: Prayer is a communication system we have available to fellowship with our heavenly Father and which activates His promises in our lives. No one can beat this system. It's quick. It's efficient. And it's available to you right now! Prayer reaches our heavenly Father instantly. Years ago my mother's doctors found a tumor in her brain. When I heard the news, I was out of town so I could not lay my hands on her. That night as fear swept over me, the Lord quickened Psalms 107:20 to my spirit: "He sent his word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions." I sent God's Word long distance to my mother's brain. When she was X-rayed again by her doctors, there was no evidence that any tumor had ever existed! Hallelujah! Our prayers are swifter than any medical technique. Only born again believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord can have a relationship with the Father and prayer is the communication method you must use to develop that relationship. [ref] Stories like these can be easily found all over the Web. How Prayer Works For believers, it is obvious why so many prayers are answered. In the Bible, Jesus promises many times that he will answer our prayers. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says: Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Ask and you will receive. What could be simpler than that? In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message: For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. Since a mustard seed is a tiny inanimate object about the size of a grain of salt, it is easy to imagine that the faith of a mustard seed is fairly small. So, paraphrasing, what Jesus is saying is that if you have the tiniest bit of faith, you can move mountains. Jesus says something similar in Matthew 21:21: I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. The message is reiterated Mark 11:24: Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it. In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again: Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Jesus is actually in our midst and God answers our prayers. The miracle of Jeanna Giese There are so many examples of the power of prayer, but one in particular deserves special consideration because it is so well documented. In December of 2004 a girl named Jeanna Giese survived a bite from a rabid bat through prayer. Hundreds of newspapers (including the Raleigh News and Observer in my home town) ran stories about the miracle of her recovery with headlines such as "Rabies girl in miracle recovery." In Raleigh, the headline was "Web weaves global prayer circle - Petitions circle the world as girl beats rare case of rabies." [Source: by Sharon Roznik, Raleigh News and Observer, December 17, 2004] The summary of the story goes like this. Jeanna was in a church service in Wisconsin when a brown bat fell into the aisle. She picked the bat up and carried it outside. No one gave it a second thought. A month later it was obvious that something was wrong. Soon Jeanna had a full case of rabies. No human has ever survived this disease without being vaccinated. Up until 2004, full-blown rabies had been 100% fatal. According to the article, a global prayer circle helped Jeanna survive. Once she got sick, Jeanna's father called friends and asked them to pray for Jeanna. People around the world heard about her story through the press and by word of mouth. They prayed. They sent emails. They passed the word along. Millions of people heard about Jeanna's plight and they said prayers for her. And the prayer circle worked. Through the power of God, Jeanna recovered. Jeanna was the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine. Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them. This is amazing stuff. The dictionary defines a miracle as "An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God." [ref] So we must ask a fundamental question: Did an all-loving, all-powerful God hear the prayers from Jeanna's worldwide prayer circle and then reach down from heaven to help Jeanna? Did God actually interact with Jeanna's body, making the impossible happen and curing her case of rabies through a divine miracle? Or did something else happen? We can actually answer this question with a simple experiment.... A simple experiment For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout veteran of the Iraqi war, or a person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident. Now create a prayer circle like the one created for Jeanna Giese. The job of this prayer circle is simple: pray to God to restore the amputated legs of this deserving person. I do not mean to pray for a team of renowned surgeons to somehow graft the legs of a cadaver onto the soldier, nor for a team of renowned scientists to craft mechanical legs for him. Pray that God spontaneously and miraculously restores the soldier's legs overnight, in the same way that God spontaneously and miraculously cured Jeanna Giese and Marilyn Hickey's mother. If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch. What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible. And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen. No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day. Isn't that odd? The situation becomes even more peculiar when you look at who God is. According to the Standard Model of God: God is all-powerful. Therefore, God can do anything, and regenerating a leg is trivial. God is perfect, and he created the Bible, which is his perfect book. In the Bible, Jesus makes very specific statements about the power of prayer. Since Jesus is God, and God and the Bible are perfect, those statements should be true and accurate. God is all-knowing and all-loving. He certainly knows about the plight of the amputee, and he loves this amputee very much. God is ready and willing to answer your prayers no matter how big or small. All that you have to do is believe. He says it in multiple places in the Bible. Surely, with millions of people in the prayer circle, at least one of them will believe and the prayer will be answered. God has no reason to discriminate against amputees. If he is answering millions of other prayers like Jeanna's every day, God should be answering the prayers of amputees too. Nonetheless, the amputated legs are not going to regenerate. What are we seeing here? It is not that God sometimes answers the prayers of amputees, and sometimes does not. Instead, in this situation there is a very clear line. God never answers the prayers of amputees. It would appear, to an unbiased observer, that God is singling out amputees and purposefully ignoring them. Understanding amputees You can see that the amputee experiment reframes our conversation. No longer are we talking about "religion" or "faith". What we are talking about here is more fundamental. At the beginning of the chapter we highlighted a number of promises that Jesus makes about prayer in the Bible. Summarizing, here is what Jesus promised: If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21] If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14] Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7] Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20] Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24] The question, therefore, is simple: Are Jesus' statements in the Bible true or false? For example, in John 3:16 Jesus says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." People take that at face value: if you believe in Jesus, you will have eternal life. So when Jesus says, "Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," isn't it the same thing? Can't we take that statement at face value as well? By looking at amputees, we can see that something is wrong. Jesus is not telling the truth. God never answers prayers to spontaneously restore lost limbs, despite Jesus' statements in the Bible. Accepting this piece of factual information, rather than denying it, is the first step in understanding something extremely important about how prayer really works. Even if you take a liberal rather than literal stance on the Bible, this feels strange, doesn't it? You may not literally believe that "nothing will be impossible for you" nor that "faith can move mountains," but I think we can agree that there is something very odd about the way that God treats amputees. No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing happens when we pray for amputated limbs. God never regenerates lost limbs through prayer, even though Christians believe that God is answering millions of other prayers on earth every day. Does God answer prayers? If so, then how do we explain this disconnection between God and amputees? What should we do with the piece of empirical data that amputees represent? We need to somehow explain why God would answer millions of prayers on earth, yet completely ignore prayers for amputated limbs. Let's examine the possible explanations one by one. Key Point No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc. Rationalization #1 Here is an explanation that you might have heard or used before: The reason God cures thousands of cancers, infections, etc. each day but never intervenes with amputees is because it is not God's will to do that. It is not part of God's plan. This explanation seems a little odd. Amputees really do seem to be getting the short end of God's plan if this is the case. If God answers prayers as promised in the Bible, and if God is performing all of the medical miracles that we read about in inspirational literature, then God should also be restoring amputated limbs. Why would God help cancer victims (e.g. Marilyn Hickey's mother) and people bitten by rabid bats (e.g. Jeanna Giese), but discriminate against amputees like this? (See Understanding God's Plan for an in-depth look at how "God's Plan" works). Keep in mind what Jesus promised: If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21] If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14] Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7] Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20] Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24] There is no indication from Jesus that amputees will be ignored when they pray for medical help. The fact is, all five of these statements are completely false in the case of amputees. The five quotes in the previous paragraph are all simple, straightforward statements. Doesn't "nothing will be impossible for you" mean "nothing will be impossible for you"? Jesus is God, and as an all-knowing being God knows how humans interpret sentences. If Jesus did not mean "nothing will be impossible for you," it seems like Jesus would have said something else. He also would not repeat that sentiment so many times. And Jesus is supposedly answering millions of prayers each day, so prayer-answering seems to be his intent (See this short video for a more in-depth discussion). Rationalization #2 In a similar vein, many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to every amputee is always "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." He does not say, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, unless you are praying about an amputated limb, in which case I will always reject your prayer." Jesus also says, "Nothing will be impossible to you," and regenerating a limb should therefore be possible. The fact that God refuses to answer every prayer to regenerate a lost limb seems strange, doesn't it? This short video offers a perspective on the "no" response to prayers. To understand how strange it seems, compare God's treatment of amputees to the concept of God described in this article. Rationalization #3 Here is another explanation that you might have heard: "God needs to remain hidden -- restoring an amputated limb would be too obvious." We will discuss this idea in more detail in later chapters, but let's touch on it here. Does God need to remain hidden? That does not seem to be the case. In general, God seems to have no problem doing things that are obvious. Think about the Bible. Writing the Bible and having billions of copies published all over the world is obvious. So is parting the Red Sea. So is carving the Ten Commandments on stone tables. So is sending your son to earth and having him perform dozens of recorded miracles. And so on. It makes no sense for a God in hiding to incarnate himself, or to do these other obvious things. Why send your son to earth, and then write a book that talks all about his exploits, if you are trying to hide? In the same way, any medical miracle that God performs today is obvious. The removal of a cancerous tumor is obvious because it is measurable. One month the tumor is visible to everyone on the X-ray, and the next month it is not. If God eliminated the tumor, then it is openly obvious to everyone who sees the X-ray. There is nothing "hidden" about removing a tumor. So, why not regenerate a leg in an equally open way? If God intervenes with cancer patients to remove cancerous tumors in response to prayers, then why wouldn't God also intervene with amputees to regenerate lost limbs? Key Point If God intervenes with cancer patients to remove cancerous tumors, then God should also intervene with amputees to regenerate lost limbs. Another example is seen in Jeanne's rabies case discussed earlier in the chapter. Tens of millions of people are aware of the Jeanna's rabies miracle. Personally, I read about it in a big article in my morning newspaper. That is pretty obvious. What is hidden about her recovery? Why, then, does God ignore the prayers of amputees? (see Chapter 19 for a complete discussion of the "hidden God" theory) Rationalization #4 Some people might say, "Everyone's life serves God in different ways. Perhaps God uses amputees to teach us something. God must have a higher purpose for amputees." That may be the case -- God may be trying to send a message. But, again, it seems odd that he would single out this one group of people to handle the delivery. To quote Marilyn Hickey once again: No matter what has happened in your past, no matter what is happening in your present, seek out your heavenly Father in prayer as often as you can. Take my word for it -- He loves you and wants to answer your prayers. [ref] You see this logic all the time in inspirational literature and hear it every Sunday at thousands of churches: "God loves you! God hears your prayers and will answer them for you!" See this article for an example. Yet, for some reason, miracles never happen when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. It does not seem to make sense that amputees would be cut off from the blessings that Jesus promises in the Bible. And it also does not mesh with all of the prayers that Jesus seems to be answering for other people. Rationalization #5 Some people ascribe the problems that amputees face to free will. They will say, "Well, if you go into a war zone and get your legs blown off, that is your own free will. God gives us free will. You made a free choice to be a soldier. It is not God's fault, and therefore he has no obligation to repair the damage." This logic is fascinating. What about all the people who are born with missing limbs, or the people who lose limbs to diseases through no fault or choice of their own? How are these people any different from cancer victims, who, supposedly, are constantly being healed by God? We know that God ignores all amputees, regardless of the cause of the missing limb. Why doesn't God heal thalidomide babies, who are by definition completely innocent? Or the innocent children who lose their limbs in mine fields? Why would God heal millions of other diseases, but completely ignore any disease that results in a lost or missing limb? Rationalization #6 Some believers say, "God does help amputees - he inspires scientists and engineers to create artificial limbs for them!" This logic is interesting, especially if we look at other examples. Take the case of smallpox. Millions upon millions of people died of smallpox until the vaccine was invented in the twentieth century. If God is the one who inspired the scientists, why did God wait until the twentieth century to do it? Why would God want to be the source of the massive suffering that smallpox caused prior to the twentieth century? And why do we pay the scientists, given that their work is simply God's inspiration? (we will discuss the question of divine inspiration in more detail in Chapter 7) Rationalization #7 Someone might say, "Thou shalt not test the Lord. It says so in the Bible." This is hard to swallow because every prayer is a test. Either God answers the prayer or he does not. There is no difference between praying for an amputee and praying for Jeanna Giese and her rabies. Note also that many believers track their prayers with prayer journals. See, for example, prayer-journal.com. Why not pray to God to heal an amputee, and then track the results of the prayer in a prayer journal? Rationalization #8 Some people might say something like, "Jesus never says when he will answer your prayers. Maybe your prayer will be answered in the afterlife." But that seems uncomfortable. Jesus is answering millions of prayers for everyone else in the here and now. Clearly that is what he means with all his verses in the Bible. Why single out amputees for treatment in the afterlife when Marilyn and Jeanna get their prayers answered almost instantaneously? Rationalization #9 Someone might say, "God will answer your prayers, but not immediately. You must be patient." They will point to a situation like that found in Mark 6:47-51: And when evening came, the boat was out on the sea, and he was alone on the land. And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out; for they all saw him, and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take heart, it is I; have no fear." And he got into the boat with them and the wind ceased. A person might say, "you see, he came in the fourth watch (generally understood to be 3AM to 6AM), not in the first or second or third. You must be patient and wait for the Lord to answer your prayers." This is just as uncomfortable as the previous explanation. God does not answer the prayers of any amputee to restore lost limbs. Rationalization #10 A believer might say, "You are taking the Bible literally." But how else are we supposed to take it? Jesus clearly says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." When Jesus says that, what does he mean? Presumably, Jesus means that if you ask for anything, he will do it. What else could he possibly mean? Believers often respond with, "Look, Jesus was using poetic embellishment when he said, 'nothing will be impossible for you,' and 'faith can move mountains.'" Which leads to the following question: What prayers does God answer? It is the response to that question that is fascinating. Because the response inevitably is, "God is omnipotent, so God can do anything." Which leads us right back to the question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" Rationalization #11 Finally, there is this oft-used chestnut: "There is no way to understand the mysteries of our Lord. People have believed in Jesus for 2,000 years, and there must be a very good reason for it." This feels like a sad point in the conversation. On one side of the conversation is a person who is defending the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving creator of the universe. This person's position should be unassailable. Yet, if God exists, and answers prayers as described in the Bible, there is no explanation for what we see in the world around us. The Bible is silent in this case. God is silent. There is not a good, comfortable explanation for the situation faced by amputees except to say, "We cannot understand the mysteries of the Lord. We have no explanation for why God refuses to answer prayers to regenerate lost limbs." Explaining the case of amputees Just for a moment, I would ask you to consider the possibility of another explanation. If you believe in God, then this explanation will initially appear to be complete nonsense. However, it is interesting in light of the conversation we will be having in this book. One explanation for the evidence that we see before us is this: God exists, and God answers prayers, but for some reason God chooses to ignore the prayers of amputees. We don't have a good explanation for why God acts this way, and it does seem to contradict what Jesus teaches about prayer in the Bible, but clearly God has his divine reasons. Now let's look at the situation with amputees from another point of view. This explanation is more straightforward: God is imaginary. Let's look at what happens when we consider this explanation and see how it stacks up. Assume that God is imaginary. The beauty of this explanation is that it fits the facts perfectly. In the case of amputees, it is a valid way to explain the reality that we see in our world. The logic goes like this: If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes complete sense in light of the evidence we see in our world. Key Point If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes sense in light of the evidence we see in our world. Interestingly, this explanation also happens to cover the case of Neva Rogers in Chapter 1. And Steve Homel's subdivision in Chapter 2. And Ranika in Chapter 4. If you assume that God is imaginary, then the paradox of God evaporates in all of these cases. Why did Ranika die? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save her. Why did Neva die? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save her. Why did Steve's house remain standing while 39 others burned to the ground? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save any of the houses (and Steve's house was a fluke). Why did 200,000 people die in the tsunami? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save them. And so on. It explains amputees too. The paradox of God vanishes completely. In response to this proposal, a thoughtful person might say, "Just because God never answers the prayers of amputees, it does not mean that he does not answer other prayers. I agree with you that it is unfair to amputees, and I agree with you that it contradicts what Jesus teaches in the Bible, but God has his reasons. For some reason, it is not part of God's plan to help amputees by regenerating their lost limbs. There is no way to understand the mysteries of our Lord, but he does have his reasons and they will become clear to us when we die and go to heaven." That is one possible explanation, but words like "unfair" and "contradicts" feel, somehow, uncomfortable. They do not fit with our mental image of an all-loving and perfect God, nor with the words of Jesus in the Bible. Why would God have such a problem with amputees that he completely ignores their prayers to regenerate lost limbs, while at the same time he is answering all of these other prayers millions of times a day? When it comes to amputees, why would Jesus renege on his promises to answer prayers in the Bible? You can see that what we have here is a paradox: On the one hand we have an all-knowing, all-loving God who has made very clear and specific statements in his Bible about the power of prayer. We have billions of people who believe that their prayers are being answered. We have thousands of examples of the power of prayer published in inspirational literature. We have prominent doctors at the CDC declaring that God is reaching down onto earth and performing medical miracles. We have major newspapers and magazines reporting on the power of prayer and prayer circles. On the other hand, we have a piece of explicit evidence that does not make any sense if God exists. No matter how many people pray, no matter how sincere they are and no matter how much they believe, God does not answer the prayers of amputees to regenerate their limbs. There are two possible explanations for this paradox: Many people believe that God answers millions of prayers every day, using his love and power to bless people all over the globe. They express their belief in articles like this, published in magazines read by millions of people. But they also believe that God ignores the prayers of amputees for a divine reason that is unknowable to human beings. In that case, the situation with amputees is a mystery. Many other people believe the opposite. They believe that God is imaginary, and therefore he cannot answer prayers. In that case, the situation with amputees makes complete sense. Who is right? The thing about amputees is that the evidence is rock solid. This solidity is what makes this example so compelling. A cascade of problems It's not like I am revealing some hidden truth here. The funny thing about amputees is that this evidence is obvious to everyone. We have all seen that God ignores the prayers of amputees. This evidence has been plainly visible for centuries. Amputees are not the only ones either. For example: If someone severs their spinal cord in an accident, that person is paralyzed for life. No amount of prayer is going to help. If someone is born with a congenital defect like a cleft palate, God will not repair it through prayer. Surgery is the only option. A genetic disease like Down Syndrome is the same way -- no amount of prayer is going to fix the problem. Or what about this. What if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way: Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen. We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Will anything happen? Of course not. If prayers like this worked, Christians would have prayed every disease on the planet into extinction centuries ago. But if God were to exist, why would he ignore such a worthy prayer? [We will discuss this particular question in much more detail in chapter 6.] It is also easy to find corroborating evidence outside the medical arena. At the global level, we see the evidence every day in many different ways. For example, we all see the millions of children who die every year from the tragic effects of poverty. Unicef puts it this way: Every year, more than 10 million children die totally preventable deaths. Some are directly caused by illness – pneumonia, diarrhoea, measles – and others are affected by indirect causes such as conflict and HIV/AIDS. Malnutrition, lack of safe water and inadequate sanitation are contributing factors to more than half of these deaths. [ref] Jesus is supposed to love all the little children of the world: "Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight." So we can ask this straightforward question: If children are precious to Jesus, then why is he killing 10 million of them every year with abject poverty? That's 27,000 dead kids every day -- more than 1,000 dead children each hour. If Jesus answers prayers as he promises in the Bible, then why haven't the prayers of billions of people to end world hunger caused Jesus to solve the problem of global poverty? (We will discuss this situation in more detail in chapter 22.) Key Point 27,000 children die every day for preventable reasons like malnutrition and unsafe drinking water. If Jesus answers prayers as he promises in the Bible, then why haven't the prayers of billions of people to end world hunger caused Jesus to solve the problem of global poverty? We all know that holes like these exist. It is easy to find them. The holes suggest that something very odd is going on. Ambiguity and coincidence The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into an extremely interesting aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This aspect of prayer has to do with ambiguity and coincidence. Imagine that you pray for something -- It does not really matter what it is. Let's imagine that you have cancer, you pray to God to cure the cancer, and the cancer actually does go away. The interesting thing to recognize is that there is ambiguity in your cure. God might have miraculously cured the disease, as many people believe. But God might also be imaginary, and the chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured your cancer. Or your body might have cured the cancer itself. The human body does have a powerful immune system, and this immune system has the ability to eliminate cancer in many cases. When your tumor dissappeared, it might be a coincidence that you happened to pray. Drugs, an immune response or a combination of the two might have been the thing the cured you. How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that worked the cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a non-ambiguous situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because there is no ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering the prayer or not. That is what we are doing when we look at amputees. When we pray to God to restore an amputated limb, there is only one way for the limb to regenerate. God must exist and God must answer prayers. What we find is that whenever we create a non-ambiguous situation like this and look at the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never answers prayers if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will approach this issue from several different angles in this book, but Chapters 6 and 7 are particularly important. The fact that prayers are never answered when the possibility of coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we analyse God's responses to prayers using statistical tools, what we find is that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer. In other words, when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for explaining any situation, they are identical. For example, this article points out: One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments. [ref] It also says: A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods. No scientific study has ever found any evidence that prayer works. There are two possible conclusions to draw from these statistical studies and the situation with amputees: God somehow detects every non-ambiguous situation (like amputees) and every situation where a statistical study will be done and he "refuses" to answer prayers in those situations. God is imaginary and does not answer prayers at all. In every case where it appears that God "answers" a prayer, it truly is nothing more than a coincidence. One problem with the first explanation is that it contradicts what Jesus teaches about prayer in the Bible. Jesus says that he answers payers. He never says, "don't pray to me unless the situation you are praying about is ambiguous." Another problem with the first situation is that it is possible to analyse any prayer with statistics, meaning that God cannot answer any prayer. In other words, we reach the same conclusion: God is imaginary. Incredibly Interesting Whether you are religious or not, you have to admit that what we see here is incredibly interesting. Despite the fact that billions of people around the world believe in God, in this chapter we have seen a credible piece of evidence that indicates that God is imaginary. We also have many other pieces of evidence that indicate the same thing. Let's step back and look at several of them. First of all, we have this fact: there is no scientific evidence indicating that God exists. We all know that. For example, God has never left behind any physical evidence that shows that he is real. None of Jesus' miracles left behind any physical evidence either. God has never taken over all the TV and radio stations and broadcast a message to mankind. There is the Bible, but as we will see in Section 2 the Bible has problems of its own. And so on. So let's agree that there is no empirical evidence showing that God exists: If we had scientific proof of God's existence, we would talk about the "science of God" rather than "faith in God". If we had scientific proof of God's existence, the study of God would be a scientific endeavor rather than a theological one. If we had scientific proof of God's existence, all religious people would be aligning on the God that had been scientifically proven to exist. Etc. Second, we have the fact that there is no statistical evidence that God answers prayers. No non-fradulent scientific study has found any evidence that prayer works. For example, if we have a prayer group pray for certain people in a hospital but not for others, the people who were prayed for don't get better any faster or live any longer. The prayers have zero statistical effect. We will discuss this in much more detail in Chapters 6 and 7. Simply think about the world around you. First, if there were conclusive statistical evidence that God answers prayers, that would provide scientific evidence that God exists. Second, we can see that there are not two laws of probability -- one for Chistians who pray and one for everyone else. There is a single law of probability that applies equally to everyone. Prayers have zero effect in any statistical study. Key Point There are not two laws of probability -- one for people who pray and one for everyone else. There is a single law of probability that applies equally to everyone. Prayers have zero effect in any statistical study. Third, we have quite a bit of daily evidence that also suggests that God is imaginary. For example, there is the paradox of Neva Rogers from Chapter 1. In this case Neva prays openly to God and then gets shot in the head four times. There is the paradox of Steve Homel's house, where Steve prays and his house is saved. Unfortunately, the 39 other houses on his street are cursed and burn to the ground. That 97.5% failure rate for prayer makes it feel like the survival of Steve's house is pure coincidence rather than a miracle. We see paradoxes like that constantly, and they all point to the fact that God is imaginary. Fourth, we have the fact that all of the gods of the past truly were imaginary. We all know with certainty that the Egyptian gods, the Roman gods and the Aztec gods were completely fictitious. Otherwise we would not have started to worship Jesus. We would be worshiping Ra or Zeus rather than Jesus if Ra or Zeus were real. Now we can start adding pieces of new evidence showing us that God does not exist. For example, we have the case of amputees as described in this chapter. If God is real, it is apparent that there is something very odd about amputees. God is supposedly answering millions of prayers on earth every day, but he completely ignores amputated limbs and refuses to restore them. That makes no sense according to the Standard Model of God and Jesus' statements in the Bible. God's treatment of amputees is inexplicable if God exists, but makes a lot of sense if God is imaginary. We have all of this evidence to show that God is imaginary. If we were in a court of law looking at this question, the judge would quickly rule that God is imaginary. There is no concrete evidence that God is real and lots of evidence that he is imaginary. If you are a thoughtful, curious person, the case of amputees really makes you wonder: Is God real or is he imaginary? | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Should just avoid the whole subject though :x | ||
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
the topic isn't about "Does God answer prayers" it's about someone losing his faith and doesn't know what to do about it, and is asking TL.net about what to do, NOT about "HEY HEY THIS WHOLE THING IS BULLSHIT HERE, SEE? SEEEEEE?" Take that out into pms if you must, it really doesn't belong here, please focus on the OP's problem, that's it, kthanks. | ||
Romantic
United States1844 Posts
I was never religious despite growing up in a Southern Baptist household. It just made me nervous when all of the adults went to a strange building and prayed to an invisible guy and I refused to go. Point being I cannot understand what you are going through, so I'll just say god(s) probably aren't real. If they are, nobody has been able to demonstrate it. | ||
Human Centipede
14 Posts
On June 22 2011 09:25 Torte de Lini wrote: You're mocking because you're insinuating that how one interprets an answers of their prayers or their belief of an answer is nothing but a fabrication of their own desire. Should just avoid the whole subject though :x The only interpretation that should be taken is an objective interpretation, and if the way one interprets their prayers is a fabrication of their own desire then it ought to be treated as such. This should not be taken to PMs because someone clearly responded to the OP by suggesting prayer is the answer to the troubles of their faith. I am saying no that is in fact not a solution, and that instead if the OP wishes to investigate further a better and more objective source of information that does not rely on imagination is by, for example, reading books critical of their faith in order to get both sides of the story. Praying will not help. If it does, its sole benefit may be for the OP to create an imaginary character who responds to his 'prayers', but these responses are entirely superstitious and fabricated in his own mind. To take an example - an idea that is similar to praying - speaking in tongues. If you told someone to speak in tongues, unless they had seen other Christians do it at Church, it is unlikely they even know what the heck to expect or how to speak in tongues the way many Pentecostal Churches do. The same applies for prayer. Unless you've been taught how to pray, and seen how your parents or pastors pray, then you would have no idea what to do. Secondly, unless you've been told by your parents, pastor or friends what to expect when praying, then you would have no idea what kind of responses God would give (unless you were schizophrenic and could actually hear voices in your head). Therefore from an objective conclusion, to suggest prayer as a solution to the OP's concerns about losing faith is misleading and just because it offends you doesn't mean it's immune to criticism. Edit: Changed spelling error and want to add an example. If someone you knew was suffering from an illness, you would suggest they go see the doctor. You would not suggest they pray. In fact, praying is unnecessary. Likewise I am suggesting to the OP - if you have a problem with your faith, educate yourself about the answers. Don't pray to something completely superstitious. Many Christians will say medical visits go hand in hand with praying, but this is a fallacy as the prayer part of that equation is completely unnecessary. Likewise for 'spiritual' correction, if the OP wishes to find the truth behind what he believes, then reading and education will help. Praying can be added, but is unnecessary. The only addition it brings may be emotional comfort, but such emotional comfort is completely unnecessary (someone who feels the need to pray is just like how someone with obsessive compulsive disorder may feel better about washing their hands 50 times a day, but this is unnecessary). I say this with complete seriousness and without the intent to mock but rather with the intent to criticise harshly due to the fact that I hate things that are fake (especially when it is taught to children and affect their psychological health and development). I have a friend who is currently dying of a brain tumour and I asked his family if there was anything I could help with (e.g. Cooking frozen meals for them). They have told me they appreciate it but at this stage just need me to pray for them. I will not, despite the fact that it grieves me that a friend is dying, I know that praying for them will make zero difference and is unnecessary. Whatever happens will happen, the best I can do if I want the cancer to go away is study to become a scientist and hopefully find a cure one day. Likewise if the OP wishes for his doubts to go away, the best way he can go about seeking the truth is reading atheist resources. Praying will do nothing to help with his education on whether or not God is real, just as praying will do nothing to help my friend who is dying of cancer. | ||
blankspace
United States292 Posts
1. There are plenty of miraculous things that happen (miraculous defined as an unusual occurrence). Non-Christians have had great coincidences happen to them that have benefited them. The difference is that when this coincidence or good fortune happens to a believer, they will attribute it to God. When they pray and nothing occurs, they may conclude that God is testing them, or their faith is not great enough, or that they need to be patient. Thus there is no accountability to this sort of "experiment." The only way this could be cited as experimental evidence is if you separated believers and non-believers and examined the percentage of "miracle cases" (it would be hard to do without a strong element of bias). I do not think that there would be a significant difference. 2. The feelings you may get as a result of prayer (serenity, the feeling of an answer through the silence, emotions) are purely internal and cannot be communicated to another. While these may have meaning to yourself, it is hard to use them to tell someone else what to believe. Feelings as evidence have always been a shaky thing. People in other religions/cultures that Christians would denounce also have strong and "spiritual" emotional experiences. Mother Teresa struggled with prayer herself. And unlike many claimed Christians, I think she was quite honest with herself. Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html#ixzz1PxtdF6oD | ||
zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 22 2011 10:49 blankspace wrote: I have to agree with human centipede (eww) on these points. I see two problems with prayer cited as evidence. Of course, if one has complete faith in prayer and offers it as advice on the grounds of one's personal faith, there is nothing to say about that. 1. There are plenty of miraculous things that happen (miraculous defined as an unusual occurrence). Non-Christians have had great coincidences happen to them that have benefited them. The difference is that when this coincidence or good fortune happens to a believer, they will attribute it to God. When they pray and nothing occurs, they may conclude that God is testing them, or their faith is not great enough, or that they need to be patient. Thus there is no accountability to this sort of "experiment." The only way this could be cited as experimental evidence is if you separated believers and non-believers and examined the percentage of "miracle cases" (it would be hard to do without a strong element of bias). I do not think that there would be a significant difference. 2. The feelings you may get as a result of prayer (serenity, the feeling of an answer through the silence, emotions) are purely internal and cannot be communicated to another. While these may have meaning to yourself, it is hard to use them to tell someone else what to believe. Feelings as evidence have always been a shaky thing. People in other religions/cultures that Christians would denounce also have strong and "spiritual" emotional experiences. Mother Teresa struggled with prayer herself. And unlike many claimed Christians, I think she was quite honest with herself. Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html#ixzz1PxtdF6oD which is the reason why it's hard to communicate about this subject, and is pointless to argue about it with an atheist because there isn't any common ground you can talk about. And thus this argument will eventually (or at least has a very very high probability to) escalate into a pointless forum war, when all the poster that introduced "prayer" into this was to have another option for the OP to use (if he/she wants). I don't think TL.net (or any site or place for that matter) is a place or platform to continue talking about this subject so fragile that does have a high potential to become a flamewar. Thus I'm just saying that this argument/subject be just dropped and refocus ourselves (the posters) to help the OP get through this period of time (either to "get back" his faith, or in the case of atheists, to persuade him/her to their thought) This is not the topic for Christians and atheists to battle over what content is fake or not, that is what each poster has to (internally) decide for themselves. TL.net is not the place to battle it out or consider which thing is fake or not. | ||
ChaoticBlack
Australia288 Posts
After that realization, I began to follow the ideals of one of my best friends. That is to find truth not through faith or emotions but through observations and testing. Ever since then I have been agnostic and have learned to be skeptical of everything I learn (including science and what we learn in school) until I can prove it by reading multiple sources and see its physical applications. On June 21 2011 21:30 plbro81 wrote: Yeah this is exactly how I feel. The reason I want to believe is because A) I am scared of death and I want to believe there is life after death and B) it feels to me that life is almost pointless (in a way) without Christianity. We're basically no different from any other animal; we're born, we reproduce, we die. I want to believe there is something else in our lives that makes us different. One way I managed to get rid of the fear of death (every animal is born with it, no one really wants to die) was to change my meaning of death. For me death is not being existent anymore, this means that we were "dead" before (before we were born) and it brings comfort to me and a slight curiosity in what we will be like after dying (in spiritual terms) | ||
VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On June 22 2011 12:39 ChaoticBlack wrote: I managed to get rid of the fear of death by realizing that I can do so much good while living that my actions will positively impact the world even after I'm gone. Knowing this motivates me to keep trying to work to make that happen. I don't need religion to tell me that I'll go to heaven if I'm good while alive. I wanna be good while alive and even after I'm dead so I can have peace of mind during my life One way I managed to get rid of the fear of death (every animal is born with it, no one really wants to die) was to change my meaning of death. For me death is not being existent anymore, this means that we were "dead" before (before we were born) and it brings comfort to me and a slight curiosity in what we will be like after dying (in spiritual terms) I'm much more afraid of not being able to make significant positive changes in the world while alive. Than I am afraid of death itself. So must keep trying to get there! | ||
Human Centipede
14 Posts
On June 22 2011 12:20 zhurai wrote: which is the reason why it's hard to communicate about this subject, and is pointless to argue about it with an atheist because there isn't any common ground you can talk about. And thus this argument will eventually (or at least has a very very high probability to) escalate into a pointless forum war, when all the poster that introduced "prayer" into this was to have another option for the OP to use (if he/she wants). I don't think TL.net (or any site or place for that matter) is a place or platform to continue talking about this subject so fragile that does have a high potential to become a flamewar. Thus I'm just saying that this argument/subject be just dropped and refocus ourselves (the posters) to help the OP get through this period of time (either to "get back" his faith, or in the case of atheists, to persuade him/her to their thought) This is not the topic for Christians and atheists to battle over what content is fake or not, that is what each poster has to (internally) decide for themselves. TL.net is not the place to battle it out or consider which thing is fake or not. It's not pointless to argue about because there isn't any common ground. It's pointless to argue about because certain people are deluded about the subject. I spent several years as a Christian so there is common ground, because for those years I likewise allowed myself to believe in the supernatural that doesn't exist. You say TL.net is not the place to battle it out - I would argue it is. The one thing most Christians tend to be against is 'moral relativism' because they believe in 'absolute truth' - and in many Churches you attend (presumably including the OP's) you're either in the boat or not. Jesus likewise told His followers that you are either with Him or against Him. Therefore it is important for the OP to have a full understanding of whether or not what he believes is true or not. You may wish to brush away the subject by pretending that either side could be correct depending on one's experiences, but that is like admitting for you, as a Christian, that someone who is a Muslim and rejects Christ and sees Him as a prophet has just the equal amount of chance of going to Heaven as a Christian. If that is the case, then I doubt you would not argue the point if it was widely accepted considering under general common Christian theology unless the Muslim accepts Christ as His Savior he is going to Hell. Therefore it is important for the OP to reach the conclusion that prayer either works or doesn't work. He doesn't have to reach this conclusion overnight, but to brush it aside as unless you are a Christian you aren't going to believe in it is a cheap way out. Prayer is not a matter of whether or not you personally believe it works or not, but whether or not it works. If you, as a Christian, fully believe that prayer works, then you would have no issue with debating it because truth is objective, not subjective. If, therefore, you truly believe that prayer works, then you wouldn't agree with the proposition that it is something for each person to internally decide for themselves - because if that was the case then it may be real or it may not be depending on the person. This is not a good position for the OP to be able to determine whether or not Christianity is real - because it's pretty much saying whether or not Christianity is real depends on whether or not you talk to a Christian who personally believes in it or an atheist. That's not correct. Whether or not Christianity is real depends on whether or not it is real, and in order to find this out objectively you find out whether the things Christians believe are real or not. Therefore to question about the reality of prayer is fully relevant and ought to be discussed in this thread. You may feel like a conclusion cannot be reached but I would argue that with more and more atheist knowledge in the world and as that knowledge grows the deluded belief in the superstitious will one day decrease, just like how many (especially younger) Christians are nowadays accepting evolution or homosexuality when only a generation ago you would never hear about a Christian who denies Creationism in six days and the welcoming of homosexuals in Church. Take another example, back in our grandparents' generation if you kissed someone you would probably end up marrying them - yet nowadays younger Christians date around before marriage and in some instances have sex before marriage - and this line will keep moving. Likewise it is my prediction that in the not too distant future many Christians will not see prayer as a valid or useful way of expressing their faith and remove it from their practices altogether, along with other practices such as the taking of communion, the attendance of Church, and the speaking of tongues. | ||
Deluge-
United States117 Posts
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tetelestai
United States53 Posts
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Human Centipede
14 Posts
This is no longer the practice when criminals are caught. Why? Because it is ridiculous and we can scientifically see that the success rate of a criminal surviving eating hot coals is 0%. Likewise with prayer - as with the piece I put in the spoilers above - it can be statistically and scientifically proven that any outcome with or without prayer is exactly the same. There is no evidence that God listens to or answers prayers - only deluded/schizophrenic people who claim so. | ||
Human Centipede
14 Posts
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Human Centipede
14 Posts
It is entirely relevant to the OP's doubting of his faith whether or not prayer is real. If it is, then he should continue on with his faith and focus on spreading the word so that people don't go to Hell because if prayer is real God is real. If it is not real, then he can be comfortable about his disbelief. | ||
masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
I don't think he was asking for a judgement on prayer. It helps some, and it doesn't help others. Are you going to belittle ones beliefs for your own reasoning. He asked a simple question of faith and the Bible. he did not ask for one to come in here and tell him he is too stubborn to accept christainity is wrong. Not flaming, Just trying to make a point that one can dicuss op wihout resorting to wether or not this or that is real, or is christainity false. Lets dicuss the op and lets not have it get into a big x vs y thread anyways back on topic. When I left the catholic church. I had to relook at the bible how I see it. Look at the bible as you see it, take it however you believe it to be. for myself when I joined the Baha'i faith I had to take a look at the bible to really understand where I am going in my faith and how I am apart of this. I believe many of the stories are fake, but provide a moral groundwork for the time. People could percieve that God flooded the earth. I think it taught the crucial lesson of paitence, and of respect toward other creatures. I urge you to not just base your faith in God just on Christainity. But look to Other faiths to see where you belong. You may find that your spiritual needs can be fufilled elsewhere. It took me many years to find the faith that fit me. The faith I felt that suited my needs and I have never been happier. I can't believe now how people could go their lives without faith, I guess its made me that way. Just don't think just because right now you don't have the perfect understanding of the bible, its not right. nobody has the perfect understanding of the bible. If you believe in God but not the bible. Then you believe in God. The bible is not revelent to any dicussion to God anyways. The words fo God can be found anywhere. In the trees, in the forest, in the ocean. | ||
tnkted
United States1359 Posts
Also, before I get into this, I think you guys should really give human centipede some credit, even if you disagree with him. He has been nothing if not polite. You'll notice how he capitalizes Him when he's talking about Jesus? That's an act of extreme respect from an athiest, although it might not seem like it. Capitalizing the pronouns (from my perspective anyway) is entirely unneccessary since I don't believe Jesus was any more special than, say, Ghandi, and we don't capitalize Ghandi's pronouns. So even if you disagree with HC, give him some credit for showing you some respect. I understand that this discussion is taking place furtively at the point of a gun (mods = gods) but that doesn't mean you can't show him a little respect. Regarding the OP: Personally, I made the leap from being a believer to being an athiest when I was in highschool. Specifically I believe it was a discussion on transubstantiation that was my final straw (I'd been agnostic for awhile anyway), but if it makes you happy I don't see any reason why you shouldn't believe for a while longer. It is just very clear that something about the particular denomination you belong to is rubbing you the wrong way. If you still want to believe you should feel free to try other denominations, or even other religions. There are a great deal of protestant perspectives on this issue that manage to sidestep much of the more ridiculous things in the bible by explaining them as parables and/or 'thinks to test your faith'. Having faith is hard. If you survive this, your faith will be very strong. Thats their side of the story. My question for you is, at what cost? In the interest of furthering my own perspective, I'd advise you to try examining what it is specifically that makes you want to believe. Is it because you've always believed, and you don't know how to not do it? Is it because you are afraid of going to hell, or of disappointing your friends and family? Or is it because God wants you to believe, and he's manipulating your emotional/chemical balances to make it more difficult for you to change your mind? | ||
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