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Oh boy, a religion thread <_<
Remember to keep discussion civil. I'll be monitoring this heavily - empyrean. |
Holy wall of text! Though, a post on this subject is sure to garner such wordy responses due to the nature of the internet.
@OP, I agree with Preppy038's post. Christianity is not about living up to a moral standard so we can get out of burning in hell. It's about a God who loved the world so much that he sacrificed himself, dieing to keep us from that death. Most of the rest is just fluff.
I've had a relatively crazy journey over the course of my 25 years, from Missionary Kid to Atheist and back to Christian, and I've hit many a period where I questioned everything I believed. I say question with vigor. The truth will come out eventually, one way or the other.
Till it does, keep looking.
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On June 21 2011 17:36 ProbeYourSCV wrote:
Hi,
I'm not really Christian so I may not offer much help. I'm actually Muslim.
Anyways, I understand how you feel. As far as I know this happens to a lot of religious people especially these days where you have people bashing religion almost everywhere. Although it's a bit easier for me seeing as I live in the middle east where practicing your religion (Whatever it is) isn't frowned upon.
My only advice to you is to actually study your religion thoroughly from various sources. Being of a different religion I can't tell you that your religion is the 'right' one but all what I can tell you is to study your religion and then make a decision. Form your own opinion from your own beliefs and not from what people tell you. You will either end up not believing...OR you would end up being a better believer.
Hope this helps.
I fully agree with this person. I came to Judaism by doing exactly this. Study your religion. Study it from various sources. As a religious person you should feel an obligation (that many do not fulfill) to be educated in the faith you pursue. Don't believe what people tell you. Form your own opinion.
The bottom line: INFORM yourself before making an INFORMED decision.
Good luck and God Bless.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On July 08 2011 01:09 Chromyne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:06 Blazinghand wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Most christians do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible, especially in the old testament. Basically, the most rational way to get value out of the bible is to understand it as a series of stories meant to teach a lesson, some of which make sense, and some of which dont. Even though it was inspired by divine events, the Bible has been written, rewritten, and translated by mortal hands, and so, like the people who wrote it, it is flawed. Even the Gospels are at odds, and they are second-hand descriptions anyways.
Live life like jesus would; be kind to others, and gentle. Speak with forgiveness and understanding. Don't be good due to some childish ideas of the afterlife, but rather, do well by your fellow man because it is righteous. This is how Jesus would want you to live. Belief in God and those other side dishes like the Bible and the Saints will come and go. And that's okay, as long as you keep on working on the main course of being as good a man as you can.
I think that most people who call themselves Christians take the Bible literally, which is wrong. They should take the Bible at face value, or as intended by the original author. Most of the time it is obvious from the original text whether the language is figurative (poetry) or literal (laws or protocols); other times, it is not (like the Genesis accounts). However, I do not see any issue with disagreement with these portions of text as they are not core doctrine. (Yes, I believe the creation account as told in Genesis is not core doctrine when compared to fallen -ness of mankind, and the deity and resurrection of Jesus.) Your assessment, if for the non-believer, is sound. A Christian should never do this. Although the Bible espouses good moral behaviour, like many people have said, you do not need the Bible or religion in general to do that, not does Christianity require good moral behaviour as a prerequisite for belief. Christianity is about and broken spiritual condition of humanity with respect to God, and a need to remedy that condition and relationship as done through Jesus. EDIT: Quotes spoilered.
I suppose then we have a fundamental disagreement about the nature of spirituality, which I can respect. it's worth noting, though, that when you say "a christian should never do this" you mean that just in your opinion. I believe that as a man explores his spirituality and the world around him, trying to live a good and christlike life is sometimes all he can do in a dark and confusing world, where a solid relationship with God and Jesus can wax and wane. Given that this is what the OP is dealing with, I stand by my advice: OP, go into the world with kindness and mercy in your heart and know that often, spirituality is a winding, rough and confusing road, but as long as a man remains Good, he shall come out of it well. Any who disagree with me on this will have to do better than talking about the "broken spiritual condition of humanity" to convince me that my Christianity is wrong.
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So basically, you have doubt in your religion, you see all the flaws of your religion, you see it's just as much garbage as all other religions, it's just causing problems, but you still say 'I really do want to believe in god' ? The only answer anyone could possibly give you would in my opinion have to be: 'Just dont believe in it'
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Why do you have to clump up your religion with God? What is God? Nobody knows what God is and therefore the question if he/she/it exist becomes quite irrelevant. To some god is a person within them whom they have a relationship with, to some its the overwhelming feeling they get when they see something beautifull, to others its love.
Its very possible to have a deep relation with "God" without beeing religous. Abandoning religon does not mean abandoning God.
Religon is a collection of stories and moral guidelines created by men. If you belive in the first testament you should kill people who works on sundays. Why mix up stupid stuff like that with your own spirituallity?
There are other ways than blind fate vs atheism =)
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i think even atheists have deep relationships with god
what would I call evidence for God?
1) when i see hell with my own eyes, i'll believe there's got to be a heaven
2) when God takes me to his dimension and beat the living animal out of me
3) when there is a law of human nature that we really have to obey
my advice, keep looking and be brave. blind belief is for pussies. the truth will come out sooner or later. go right into it.
oh and for the bible, learning about the history and the writer and his audience is more important. lol if you take everything literally, one day people would be trying to be wizards after reading Harry Potter.
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Let me just say, i'm a non-christian, so my opinion will probably naturally tend towards a slightly non-christian point of view, though I think I can think objectively enough not to let it seep into my post too much.
Put simply, I'd say that if you can't force yourself to believe in the things said in the bible, then just don't.
I was raised christian (not fundamental by any means, but nonetheless when it mattered my parents were christians. Damn casuals ^^) and I came to the conclusion by myself that I don't really find any reason to believe in any of this stuff. If you find yourself having the same doubts, then instead of trying to hammer in beliefs you're already questioning (and end up living a life of doubt where you're secretly questioning your own beliefs).
Live your life to the fullest, no doubt. Don't (this is where my personal bias probably seeps in a bit TT) let the rulings of an old book make you feel guilty about what you're doing. However, don't think that because you aren't under the rule of said book you can do whatever you want. It's a complete misconception that atheists are somehow less intuitively moral then christians.
From my point of view, I find it much better to live a good, moral life than to live a good, moral life but always fear god's judgement.
I think you're a nice, upstanding guy, so if you decide to drop your christianity, don't let it affect your personality (assuming that your faith wasn't a gigantic part of your personality from before, which I doubt it was). Just live your life as you would of, and realize that you don't need God to tell you how to live your life.
I'd type something here apologizing for being biased, but we all are. Just like nobody can be completely unbiased on things like gender equality etc (because we all [generally...] belong to one gender. Similarly we all either belong to a religion or don't)
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man just do what makes YOU happy, and what you believe in. Its your life, live it once. If praying on sundays and believing in something makes you feel happy and warm inside, then do that. If sitting at your computer sunday mornings playing starcraft is what would make you feel the best then do that.
even if you have a vague beliefe in "god" then would he not understand you enjoying your life, living it to the highest happiness you can achieve for yourself all the while being good to others. At the end of the day, I cant see a god burning you for all eternity for enjoying the thing he gave you.
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To state my bias: I'm a Christian, and can only speak for myself.
Ultimately, you will need to make a choice. To believe or not. And why is that? Well, if you saw God or the devil in person tomorrow, and you could trust your senses, and from then on declared "God is real" or "the devil is real" to the world, is that Faith? On the other hand, if tomorrow you are asked whether or not God is real, and you answer yes, and you could trust in what you've said, is that Faith?
From my own personal experience, the situation is like crossing a crevasse on a rope bridge. You need to be sure that the end on your side of the chasm is secure. You need to be sure that the end on the other side of the chasm is secure. And you need to trust that the rope you're standing on will hold, no matter how much it sways or how many threads fall away from it.
Either way, you're going to have to trust that the rope is going to hold, assuming you aren't some artisan that makes a living fabricating ropes and can judge the integrity of one just by looking. So what your task then becomes is to figure out whether there is something in the past that serves as a testament to one type of life or another. And then what your task becomes is to figure out whether there is something in the future that serves as a testament to one type of life or another. Because you're already going to have a hard enough time worrying about whether the rope is going to hold. You can't afford to worry about whether or not the bridge is going to lose its anchors.
I would argue that those anchors don't need to be something spectacular or supernatural, with regards to any type of life. But the anchors do need to be stable. And I think you have reached the point in your life at which you need to find that stability, so you can keep on going, enduring all that life throws at you, without regrets of a path not take or a choice not made. From a Christian point of view then, those anchors are a part of the gift called Faith. It's not something that we can just make for ourselves, but rather something that is to be sought out ceaselessly when lost and cherished ceaselessly when found. That's just my two cents. I hope you find what you are looking for.
In my own case, it took a long while of wandering before I finally came back.
Like others who have posted before me, I'd like to emphasize two points from both "sides" of the discussion. First, that your situation is completely normal, and many/most Christians go through something similar at some point. And second, that if you (regrettably) fall away from your Christian life, don't let that become an "excuse" to become a bad person in both the Christian sense and the atheistic sense. Perhaps you may not be a "good" person in the strictest theistic sense then, but the world doesn't need any more rotten people. "Light up the darkness." In either case.
Lastly, growing pains are a reality. Don't take them as a sign of stagnation, necessarily. Instead, even this situation and the questions you have can be taken as a sign that you still want to grow as a person (and hopefully also as a believer) and in some ways, this may never go away. But as with everything else living, we either grow or we die. May you grow.
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On July 08 2011 09:21 IzieBoy wrote:
i think even atheists have deep relationships with god
Deep down, you really don't believe that.
As an Atheist I laugh whenever religious people convince themselves that Atheists believe in a deity.
To the OP:
It really depends on whether you want to follow science or faith. I'm an Atheist so I couldn't understand the faith route, but some good friends of mine are fairly devout and have acknowledged the scietific (he even referred to it as the "logical" view).
Whatever you do, it's important to be satisfied with what you decide.
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On July 08 2011 01:09 Chromyne wrote:
I think that most people who call themselves Christians take the Bible literally, which is wrong. They should take the Bible at face value, or as intended by the original author. Most of the time it is obvious from the original text whether the language is figurative (poetry) or literal (laws or protocols); other times, it is not (like the Genesis accounts). However, I do not see any issue with disagreement with these portions of text as they are not core doctrine. (Yes, I believe the creation account as told in Genesis is not core doctrine when compared to fallen-ness of mankind, and the deity and resurrection of Jesus.)
So you believe that Genesis is figurative. How about when Jesus turned water into wine? Or when people were healed? Do you take that at face value or was the intention by the original author poetry?
Many Christians like to cherry-pick which bits are meant to be taken literally and which parts aren't. Generally if God did something evil like in the Old Testament or Revelations, it's meant to be just a metaphor, but if Jesus died and rose again after three days then it's a miracle and if you don't accept it you won't be saved.
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Don't know if this will help at all, but it's a little of my personal experience.
Just to state, I'm christian.
I basically grew up in church (pentacostal or whatever denomination u want to throw it into) and I always felt I had a strong relationship with God (people can take this terminology apart if they want, but w.e), praying often, reading my bible, going to church, having a home group, etc. My parents were always involved at church and I joined the music/worship team when I could. I didnt do it to get girls or popularity, or even cos I enjoyed music. I honestly did it because I wanted to please God.
Skip ahead 10 years and I found myself studying to be a chemical engineer. My first year was great, but the more I learned about science, and the more people I came to know, the more a doubt of my faith started to creep into my life.
I started to wonder if everything I had learned and even studied (i took a gap year to do theology training and serve and my own church) was ever really true.
For months I just stopped reading the Bible, stopped praying, and I too found my moral standard slipping a bit, not to say I'm a perfect guy, but I just didn't like who I was becoming.
This got me to thinking that maybe my doubts are just there to distract me.
One thing that I could rely on however was my family and friends, my friends especially. Sometime I think that they find it so much easier to believe in God because of their backgrounds. They seem to have an unwavering faith that makes me want to be like them. The funny part is that I was the one to bring them to church. My advice is to speak to family and friends, people you trust.
People can tell u all sorts of things to encourage you or discourage you. But for me, I found that by just looking back at my life, there are things that have happened that can only point towards a God that loves me.
I hope you're able to come to terms with what you're going through. Know that you aren't alone in your doubts. Sometimes reading the Bible just doesn't feel like it will help, and sometimes just fighting and shouting about it won't make any difference.
In the end it's all about you, and what you have done with your life. Some believe that it all ends when we die. Others believe we are reincarnated and some believe in an eternity spent either in heaven or hell. I'm not gonna tell u what to believe, but I know what I believe, and I hope something happens that will help you with your decision at the end of the day.
Lastly, if you know you once believed in God, then ask him to reaffirm your faith in him. The Bible says he never leaves us, so why not test him? (hope this doesn't offend anyone) But be sincere, don't go looking for an excuse.
I wish you luck in your search
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It seems to me like you have grown and matured to the point where you are actually questioning things in your life. This is a good thing! Don't shy away from it!
As many of the posters have said you shouldn't stress too much about it but here's how I dealt with my insecurities: I decided that the views of my friends and family were useful to a point but that I needed to read authors that have much more to say about everything about this issue.
I must say that ultimately, "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins was the most eye-opening and powerful book I have ever read. If you are left generally unsatisfied by people saying essentially, "It is what you make it" and you would prefer logical insight into the reasons we believe what we believe and how they are right or wrong, I would strongly recommend this book.
Be warned though, if you are easily offended, you might have to grow thick skin to get through it ^.^
Best of luck
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I am not Christian. I am Muslim, but I will try to offer a few bits of general advice and hopefully you can benefit from them.
I think you need to narrow down a few things about your faith and focus on exploring those. To say that you're having general doubt about passages from the bible and the existence of God, put a lot up for grabs and perhaps you need to tackle things one by one. Is it a specific passages or ideals that you're having trouble accepting? Are there certain attributes in the interpretation of God that are making you doubt?
I also have to ask, is there anything else in your life that's troubling you that is causing you to question your beliefs. There are times when people are going through immense hardship in their life and it maybe hard to keep faith during those times because you think, 'hey i'm a good person, why does God do this to me?'
We need to know a few more specifics on your life. As for the porn situation and for other things that you do that are against your faith, yes, you should feel guilt for that but that shouldn't deter you from not believing. I know at times that may make you feel hypocritical for believing one thing and then doing another but that's all about setting higher standards for yourself and sometimes not being able to meet them and you cant become a better person without those standards. So there's no point in abandoning them, even if you're having trouble meeting them.
Also maybe just go to a different Church and get a different perspective.
As for what is faith, I could sit here and put out a dictionary definition, but that isn't what you need. I dont believe in following something blindly. I follow my religion because I believe in it 100%. I was fortunate enough to be able to study it academically for a good portion of my life and to have people around me who did the same. Is it hard to follow? Yes, at times it is, especially when you grow older and you're just not around the same people any more. My best friends are atheists and I love them to death. The respect me an respect how much i stick to my beliefs but there are time when I think to myself that I would fit in better with their friends if I abandoned some of my practices, luckily I havent. It's because I do believe that if I did so, I'd be living a lie and I think sometimes they cherish the beliefs that make up my personality.
My advice is to tackle things one by one. Do some research and get some fresh ideas from other Christians. One of my strongest reasons for believing in God is because of being confident in the religion around it. It's not necessarily because I can 'feel' His presence. Although, there are times where I do. It's because there's a structure of logic that holds it all up for me. For instance, science supports the Big Bang Theory and evolution. It's still being explored and some parts of each theory are stronger than others, but Islam does talk about things evolving from water and the universe always expanding. So while things like evolution and the big bang are used as evidence against religion. That stuff helps me because when people make that accusation, I know it's because they dont know enough about my religion. I've also met Muslims that are surprised when they hear me talk about verses in the Quran referring to stuff like that. My point is they don't know enough about their own religion to be able to defend those arguments, which maybe what's happening in your case. You simply may just be lacking information here about your own religion.
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United States1647 Posts
Truth doesn't come from your desires. Try to evaluate the world as you experience it and determine what is real based on what you observe. Don't believe in something just for the sake of being able to better sleep at night - if the whole world forced itself into ignorance human progression would end. Instead, accept the truth and the world and strive to better it through bettering yourself.
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EPT
