I know a lot of people here do not believe in God, so if so, I don't need any derogatory responses about Christianity. Hopefully some Christians and non-Christians can help me out here.
So anyway, I've been struggling with my faith lately. I was a Christian since I was born, but lately I've been questioning Christianity more and more (especially since I'm in college now). I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
So, any advice on how to get through this phase? Or what to do?
Please lets have a civil talk. I don't want any bashing or insulting. I appreciate your opinions, no matter what they are, as long as you can tell it in a civil manner. thanks!
You're limiting yourself by only asking for help from Christians; this severely cuts the amount of types of responses you're going to get, as Christians who have gone through the faith-questioning phase are obviously going to have a certain type of response.
To prevent yourself from being intellectually disingenuous, I'd solicit responses from both Christians and non-Christians, and personally weigh their opinions. Only then can you actually make a fair judgement about what's best for yourself and how to overcome this crisis - even if it means giving up your ingrained Christian beliefs.
On June 21 2011 17:11 Empyrean wrote: You're limiting yourself by only asking for help from Christians; this severely cuts the amount of types of responses you're going to get, as Christians who have gone through the faith-questioning phase are obviously going to have a certain type of response.
To prevent yourself from being intellectually disingenuous, I'd solicit responses from both Christians and non-Christians, and personally weigh their opinions. Only then can you actually make a fair judgement about what's best for yourself and how to overcome this crisis - even if it means giving up your ingrained Christian beliefs.
I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
There's various views and understandings of Catholicism.
For many the term usually refers to Christians and churches belonging to the Roman Catholic Church in full communion with the Holy See.[3] For others it refers to the churches of the first millennium, including, besides the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East.[4][5] And for others again it refers to "adhering to the catholic faith as it has been inherited from the earliest Christians ... seeking to restore the faith and order of the primitive church",[6] as claimed by the Anglican Communion, various Lutheran churches,[6][7][8] and other Reformation and post-Reformation churches.[9][10]
There's various views and understandings of Catholicism.
For many the term usually refers to Christians and churches belonging to the Roman Catholic Church in full communion with the Holy See.[3] For others it refers to the churches of the first millennium, including, besides the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, and the Assyrian Church of the East.[4][5] And for others again it refers to "adhering to the catholic faith as it has been inherited from the earliest Christians ... seeking to restore the faith and order of the primitive church",[6] as claimed by the Anglican Communion, various Lutheran churches,[6][7][8] and other Reformation and post-Reformation churches.[9][10]
arent all of those christians?
According to Richard McBrien, Catholicism is distinguished from other forms of Christianity in its particular understanding and commitment to tradition, the sacraments, the mediation between God, communion, and the See of Rome.[1] According to Orthodox leaders like Bishop Kallistos Ware, the Orthodox Church has these things as well, though the primacy of the See of Rome is only honorific, showing non-jurisdictional respect for the Bishop of Rome as the "first among equals" and "Patriarch of the West".[17] Catholicism, according to McBrien's paradigm, includes a monastic life, religious orders, a religious appreciation of the arts, a communal understanding of sin and redemption, and missionary activity.[18]
Don't cherry-pick. You can be catholic without being Christian.
In principle, Christianity is built solely on the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. The Bible is our only infallible rule of faith, being sufficient to give us the sure knowledge of the Gospel for our salvation and holiness.
Roman Catholicism demands submission of the intellect and will to the doctrines taught by the Roman magisterium (the Pope and bishops). It is claimed that the Catholic Church derives its doctrines from the "sacred deposit" found in Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. However the faithful cannot verify these doctrines by referring to the original sources. The Scriptures are inaccessible because only the magisterium is able to establish the authentic meaning. Similarly the contents of Sacred Tradition can only be known through the magisterium. Roman Catholicism is mental and spiritual slavery to the Vatican.]
You have Google, use it.
No more on the topic, I don't want to discuss something you can look up on your own Just help the guy instead of nit-picking my stance or view of my own religion.
well dude, what kind of advice do you want? just ignore anything anyone has taught you and ask yourself if you really believe in any of this? you can be a good guy and a bad guy no matter which path you go. you wont become some being of darkness if you stop believing and you wont necessarily waste your time practising your religion if it makes you happy.
just pick whichever makes more sense to you, or whichever makes your life more happy
I don't understand. If you think something seems fake why push yourself to believe in it? No one needs religion to be a good and moral person. Sometimes it helps but it certainly isn't necessary. You can stop being religious without becoming a horrible person, which is what you seemed to be saying (feel free to correct me though). In the end believe what you want to believe, it's your life.
I'm not really Christian so I may not offer much help. I'm actually Muslim.
Anyways, I understand how you feel. As far as I know this happens to a lot of religious people especially these days where you have people bashing religion almost everywhere. Although it's a bit easier for me seeing as I live in the middle east where practicing your religion (Whatever it is) isn't frowned upon.
My only advice to you is to actually study your religion thoroughly from various sources. Being of a different religion I can't tell you that your religion is the 'right' one but all what I can tell you is to study your religion and then make a decision. Form your own opinion from your own beliefs and not from what people tell you. You will either end up not believing...OR you would end up being a better believer.
My advice would be to continue to educate yourself as best you can on Christianity as well as other religions, and also atheism. Clearly you were/are quite ignorant (you have to start somewhere, don't take that as an insult), fortunately you've realized that and have the balls to admit it (laughing at other religions or whatever). Have an open mind.
Morals are subjective, I never believed in a god past the age of maybe 8 and I've never killed anyone and I don't try to hurt people for no reason. Like someone else said earlier, you can be a good or bad Theist or a good or bad Atheist.
My advice? Try and look at things from an objective view, not a subjective one.
I was raised Catholic/Christian, but I haven't really been to church in at least half a decade.
I went through a very similar situation that you did. I wanted to sit here and believe in god, but I just couldn't force myself to. I was always forced into religion by my parents and that probably didn't help my situation. You cannot make yourself believe in a god or not. If you have doubts that there is no god then there is nothing wrong with that. I agree with some of the other posters. Study your religion and decide yourself what you want to do. Just make sure no one makes the decision for you.
My advice to you would be live your life to the fullest. That doesn't mean go out and buy hookers and drink the night away. That means go out, make friends, have a good time, do things you never thought you would ever do. Do whatever will make you happy. But the most important thing is to treat others with respect. Even if you don't believe in the stories from the bible you can believe in some of the messages that it portrays. You seem like a really nice guy. Just stay who you are and don't waste any day. There are too few of them as is.
I've been through a similar experience. Grew up as a very sincere Christian (of the protestant, perhaps even fundamentalist, variety), and started to have doubts about the existence of God at the start of university. I now call myself an atheist, but it took me about 8 years (I'm now in my late twenties) to reach that point. I was very happy as a Christian, but in the end I had to be honest with myself and admit that (as far as I can tell) God doesn't exist. And I'm happier as a result of being honest with myself.
I went to Church when I was a kid because I had some family members that were Christian even though my immediate family were not religious. I just went there for the fun of being with other kids and making friends. I read the Bible once or twice; but I never took them as more than stories. They were sort of like fairytales and folklore (a bit dark too actually) with a strong theme of morality. At least that was how I perceived them. At one point I "tried" being a Christian because a lot of my friends were Christian but then I didn't truly "believe." I just said I was Christian to feel included really. I still pop into Church once in a while for the fun of it. Everyone in the Church knows I'm an athiest/agnostic (depends on my mood); there are some that try to convert me whenever I walk in but most of them know better.
(as a general note. Catholicism *IS* within the boundaries of Christianity. Christianity as a whole ISN'T entirely Catholic/etc, as you might expect. Definition of a Christian = Follower of Christ... but w/e doesn't matter in the scope of this blog.)
That aside, I'm a Catholic Christian.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: I know a lot of people here do not believe in God, so if so, I don't need any derogatory responses about Christianity. Hopefully some Christians and non-Christians can help me out here.
Just wondering, which denomination, because I personally only have experience with a certain subset of that (Catholic) so... I'll format the rest of this post as if you are, if not, I guess disregard everything here........or so? *shrug*
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
So anyway, I've been struggling with my faith lately. I was a Christian since I was born, but lately I've been questioning Christianity more and more (especially since I'm in college now). I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
I've been baptized since... a bit before 1st grade? I dont' remember. I'm in college too, but it really depends which aspects of Christianity you've been questioning anyways
Really though, there's something called Confirmation, and people apparently don't get that you had the choice to "go your own path" (i.e. you are now an adult to the Church, when you go accept confirmation you accept God/etc) .... then again, nobody understand it anyways, and goes through it and then quits out of being a Christian altogether.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
I don't think I've gone through something through that, as I've been pretty close to the Church ever since I was baptized I believe. I mean, the only other group I'm even close to socializing with other than my church friends is...well teamliquid/starcraft players in a way.... but w/e.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "Degrading slowly morally". If you think you're a good person/etc, then your "morals" aren't exactly _degrading_.
I think it's more like you're just losing faith and is trying to find a good reason to stay a Christian?
Are/Were you active at your local parish/church youth group? did you have any good friends that were Christian that you knew back then that you are still friends + they are still Christian? / etc..
I feel that a support network, or at least a network of friends that you have at church would help you keep your faith. Like for me, I've went through the catechism, with a class, and pretty much bonded with them (I'd say) pretty close, so that we essentially created a support network that we can talk to/etc (and it doesn't really have to be just about Church stuff), [Random stuff: I think one or two of them + StarCraft got me interested in k-pop =.=' Heh...] Along with this class I had, we also had a bigger youth group we were part of (lead by the young adults in our church community) that, for us, consisted of all the high school classes/grades, and the activities there helped us bond even more/etc
I guess I can talk about this more after my finals this Wednesday or so if you want to talk about it more ^_^'.. ehh getting late... 2am
I was raised like a Catholic. But when I was more or less 11 or 12 I started to analize religion with my own head. And the truth is that from that point onward my 'faith' (that was culturally imposed) decreased to a point that now I don't have almost no respect for the Catholic Church (I basically know this one so i won't talk about others).
This is mainly because it they preach one thing and I see every catholic doing a diferent thing. Even the priests during the services sound fake and artificial to me. And one thing I hate is hypocrisy. So the church is basically dead for me.
But the cool thing about faith is that you don't need to follow other people's faith. If you truly believe that there something or someone that created the whole world around us with a purpose you don't need to call It /Him Jesus or Budha. You don't need to follow the books that explain what you should do. You can call Him/It whatever you want. You can create your own doutrine to follow with your own principles. You can create your own ways of praising Him/It. And you know why? Because He/It will be YOUR God. No one else. And if you truly BELIEVE in Him/it no one will be able to take Him/It down.
This won't probably help you much but I hope you find faith either in a god or in a lack of one.
I don't know why you "want" to believe in God.I'm perfectly happy as an atheist. My life didn't change at all from christian > atheist morally. I'm still just as nice as before but I have a brighter world view since previously I believed most people were going to hell. I would advise you weigh up each religion (or lack thereof) equally and go from there.
I feel like I was in a very similar position, when I read this line: "I really want to believe in God" it bought it home. I really wanted to believe because I was terrified of death, I had the same questions as you and it all seemed increasingly like a farce, yet I still believed because I needed a security blanket. I don't want to be too preachy, but I'm going to close with this: You can be a good person and not believe in god.
I always felt like I was a Christian when I was a child for whatever reason; I was simply born into it. My parents have never discussed religion with me, not once. Yet I still felt like I was a Christian and even lied to others that I was. I have never been baptized. Around the mid-teen age of my life I began to question it like you have and for me I am now an Atheist and completely comfortable with that. But the answer is not the same for everyone.
I study a lot of history of religion, it seems like you're asking some very broad questions that I could answer historically but I feel like you would prefer spiritual answers.
These are things you need to figure out for yourself of course since I wouldn't feel comfortable guiding someone else's life on the internet. Although I would say to your last question that "serving God" is not a waste of time if you are living life to your fullest; I don't think there is anything wrong with faith and religion helping someone to do good things in life(there shouldn't be much of a gray area here, morality permeates all religions and cultures pretty much.)
I will say that the three religions of Abraham: Judaism, Catholicism, and Islam are probably more similar than you might think, but of course have their differences.
hi man, i'm a Christian, but my advice to you is to experience it and think about it for yourself. if you base what you believe in on what other people are telling you, you will get hundreds of viewpoints. personally, im doubtful about the 7 day creation (i interpret genesis as more of a poetic work), unsure about the rapture timing, and many other issues that i'm keeping an open mind about. however, i whole heartedly believe that Jesus Christ was on this earth and has died for me.
i used to just go along with everything, and was pretty sure about some big ideas. but when i got older i read more widely (Christian and non-Christian works) and explored everything again for myself. you should do the same thing. in fact i find that when i question myself and gotten answers that changed what i thought, it solidifies what i believe in because i discovered it for myself.
Hello! I have pretty much always been agnostic, so i'll give a bit of a different input from the first few posts. A couple of interesting sentences in your post are "you really want to believe in God" and "you feel yourself degrading slowly morally". So let me ask you, what do you mean by that? Do you feel like you need some sort of guideline for your life, something you can look at to confort you, learn from etc? That isn't necessarily religion: most agnostics/atheists have their own guideline regarding morals, behaviour etc that is really similar to Christianity. You know, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you.". You don't need to believe in religion for you to be a good person. Faith is something people use to get strength through bad times, or to explain all the evil that goes on in the world without saying "well, many humans are just bastards for no good reason". I think that's what you should look into religion if you feel you need it, not something that tells you wether you have good morals or not.
I don't see why someone can't question their own religion while still believing in it. It boggles my mind when I see that little children have been brainwashed into believing fully in any religion. These are the same people who later will not accept any sort of argument in any fashion against their religion, and will not ever question their faith. I simply cannot respect people like this, and I cannot respect the people who brainwashed them. On the other hand, I have a huge amount of respect for people who are capable of questioning their own faith. If someone leaves their faith, and explores the available alternatives, then I value their choice of faith, or lack thereof, much more highly.
The fact that you are at this moment questioning yourself and your beliefs speaks that in the end you will be able to make the choice you believe is best for yourself, not a choice that someone else made for you.
It's really hard to abandon religion when you've grown up with it. When your parents teach you to believe in God, every adult in your life believes in God, and all your friends believe in God, it's so easy to become indoctrinated and follow the path of least resistance. I spent most of my years growing up in Georgia where the question wasn't "do you attend church?", it was "which church do you attend?" Everyone was Christian; it was just expected. Being surrounded by religion, I didn't question it too hard until I got older. By 16, the blatant hypocrisy of the average faithful person, including religious leaders, made me stop going to church, but I continued to believe somewhat. I continued praying to God for years later and didn't self-identify as an atheist until around 22 (I'm 28 now).
There's a lot I really want to say about this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it succinctly and kindly. There are tons of great essays, books, and videos available online that explain much better than I ever could about the fallacies, lies, and half-truths you've been told at church. You seem to have already deduced some big ones on your own, and from my personal experience, there's no turning back. You can still be a moral person and live a good life without God; we atheists don't murder and rob just because there's no threat of eternal damnation for doing so. We're nice people too, and you don't even have to give us 10% to join.
Hi man, I feel for you because what you're going through is a very testing period of your life. I hope that you will emerge from it a stronger person!
I'm a Christian apologist, which means that I try and reconcile science and faith. I believe in everything mentioned in the Bible - from creation in 7 days, Noah's Ark and Jesus.
One of the more controversial topics is of course creation. If creation is interpreted literally, not only is the universe made in 7 days, but that means that the Earth is under 10,000 years old (as opposed to the scientifically accepted 4b years). I get this 10,000 years because the complete genealogy from Jesus to Adam is written in the first chapter of Matthew. Then, when you add up all the years that those men lived, you get around 6,000 years.
The reason I can reconcile these differences is because of the understanding of "time". Many people will say that the Bible is paraphrasing, and that when it says 7 days, it is 7 "figurative" days. However, I don't accept that. Modern science has shown that time is completely different from what the layman understands (Einstein's Theory of Relativity).
Also, I believe that we are on the cusp of broadening our understanding of the universe. Einstein's theory is now breaking down when applied on the quantum level. It is possible that in our lifetime, a new theory will supersede it.
The next thing to consider is the timing of when Jesus arrived into the world. He didn't go to a random civilization during the dark ages. He came to the Jews at the height of the Classical era. This meant that the Romans had good roads (vital for spreading The Word) and kept good records. There were many eye witness accounts on Jesus' life.
Now, also consider the 3 main monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. If you study the early history of their books, you'll find them quite similar. In fact, both Islam and Judaism acknowledge the existence of Jesus (but as a prophet). Coupled with the fact that the people living in those areas now are still fighting over their right over the land. The story has been passed down from generations to generations and good records are kept.
Having all this knowledge is all well and good. But the main thing - faith and love is the most important. I guess having that knowledge is what sustains me during difficult times.
I am not a Christian, rather I am a Theravada Bhuddist (a branch of Bhuddism). However, I studied in a Christian school from elementary study to highschool so I kinda experienced both religions.
I used to doubt in my religion once when I was young, then took an interest in Christianity then back to affirm my faith in Bhuddism after I studied both religions thoroughly. I just feel that each religion suits each person more or less than other person. So you should study yourself, your religion and other religions to see what suit you the best. If you can't find one, then becoming Atheist is not bad either.
From my experience, religions at their cores aim to make people become morally good. But that does not mean not believing in religion or lacking/reducing of faith makes you become a bad person. As long as you are good, ie. not hurting others both physically and verbally (and to certain extent, mentally), you are practicing religions. Live you life to the fullest and focusing on your present situation and feeling would be more likely to make you happy.
Oh, and when you read the scriptures, regardless of religions, please don't take every words literally. Some are written in what I would call "religious language", which need to be analyzed first to understand a deeper meaning of those words or teachings. Also, scriptures were written by human and human do make error, intentionally or unintentionally. So read about teachings, think what they truly means, and how you could adapt and use them to make your life happy.
i went through this actually. You have to realize that most stories the bibles are metaphorical. The bible was written in a time when people did not know nearly as much as us about the physical world.
Many people want to try to make Christianity compatible with their scientific knowledge or vise versa and I think thats the wrong way to go. Anyone with an education has at their disposal the tools to realize religion for what it is. There is a reason all major religions followed today originated thousands of years ago. It gave people a sense of belonging and something to give them hope. It explained the unknown. Now it is so ingrained in our society that people have a hard time breaking away from it even if it comes to odds with logic and common sense.
You are asking questions such as "Is there really a heaven and hell?" or "Is there really a God?" but I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. Maybe you are asking the wrong questions or trying to understand something that is not understandable? I don't believe in miracles, I don't know much about religion but I do have faith. It's a hope that the individual life is more important than as a mean to reproduce the human race. I cannot explain it better though. The cause and effect of things are just so very different from the reason and purpose of our existence.
Instead of reading the bible perhaps you should read a philosopher, Kierkegaard for example?
I know a lot of people here do not believe in God, so if so, I don't need any derogatory responses about Christianity. Hopefully some Christians and non-Christians can help me out here.
So anyway, I've been struggling with my faith lately. I was a Christian since I was born, but lately I've been questioning Christianity more and more (especially since I'm in college now). I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
You don't need christianity or any other religion to guide you. All religions sound pretty stupid to someone who is an atheist, just like everything except christianity sounds stupid to you. I'm not going to start arguing why christianity is wrong and god does not exist, you can look up those yourself.
You might want to look into that, a lot of people call in with problems like yours. The main host Matt used to be a hardcore christian who was studying to become a priest. While studying theology he realised how much bullshit is in the bible and slowly lost his faith. He sort of went through what you're experiencing now.
On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote: If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all. .
If something interacts with the universe it will leave physical evidence inside it. When you can't find any evidence for the existence of god inside the universe, you can't say a god exists. The scientific method is the best way to determine what is true and what is false. The answers the church offers don't satisfy anyone who wants to think about things for more than 5 seconds. When you accept a lie as the truth, you stop seeking for the truth. Faith is completely useless for discovering anything. That's why anything religion offers on the supernatural has no value.
This thread is really interesting, with input from so many different religeous mind sets.
I'm atheist. I call myself atheist because not only do I see no good reason to believe in a god, but I also see that religeon is a terrible force for evil in the world. In almost all cases nobody uses religeon to call for increased liberty and human rights. On the other hand it is easy to find people using religeon to justify war and the repression of women.
It doesn't matter if you choose to believe in a god, it only matters to you. If you want to you can surround yourself in hardcore believers who will try and reconcile your questions with rhetoric. I really think that you can convince yourself to beleive in anything if you try hard enough.
If you decide you don't want to believe in a god anymore, then don't feel bad about this either. Do you really think a being so wise and powerful to create the universe and all within it would be so petty and small minded as to be bothered whether you believed in him or not.
I went through this very same phase OP. I was also born and raised as a Christian until I went to University and studied Science. To make a long story short I eventually became an Atheist. All I can say is to remain inquisitive and positive :>
it sounds like youve figured out how to think on your own instead of like you said, blindly accepting your parents religion based on the fact that they told you its true. think about what the term god used to mean to you. and what it means now. what is the concept of god, in your mind? also realize like empryean so rightfully pointed out, think about other faiths and how they explain this universal concept of god. for example i myself follow no particular organized religion. but that does not make me an atheist, and it doesnt mean im going to hell.
Believing in god usually comes from some sort of problem in your life where you are seeking understanding or security in something that does not exist (sort of like having made-up-friends when you were little to not feel alone). It can also come from systematical brainwashing but that seems to not be the case here. Since you say "I want to believe in god" this is a clear sign to me that your intellectual and rational mind is fighting to convince you of the truth where at the same time insecurities and "faith" struggle to keep them. This is most likely made even harder since you are studying science. I would suggest to work out your problems and or reasons that brought you to believe in god/Christianity in the first place and in that way try to get rid of it.
On June 21 2011 18:34 Azzur wrote: The next thing to consider is the timing of when Jesus arrived into the world. He didn't go to a random civilization during the dark ages. He came to the Jews at the height of the Classical era. This meant that the Romans had good roads (vital for spreading The Word) and kept good records. There were many eye witness accounts on Jesus' life.
Now, also consider the 3 main monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. If you study the early history of their books, you'll find them quite similar. In fact, both Islam and Judaism acknowledge the existence of Jesus (but as a prophet). Coupled with the fact that the people living in those areas now are still fighting over their right over the land. The story has been passed down from generations to generations and good records are kept.
I find both of these points to be extremely odd arguments in favor of Christianity because they're usually used to debunk it.
There are no eye witness accounts on the life of Jesus. According to the Bible, he was literate, but he never wrote any books, nor did his disciples. The gospels attributed to the apostles were originally untitled and anonymous and only later associated with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; they weren't written contemporaneously with Jesus. Despite the Romans' good record keeping, there isn't a single record of Jesus having ever existed. The best historical references to Jesus are brief mentions of people talking about someone named Christ many decades later.
As to the similarity of Jesus in religion, his story is also very similar to older gods such as Dionysus, Horus, and Mithras. Of course Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are similar: they were founded in the same region. Even Jesus was supposedly a Jew, and the first Christians were all Jews. It's not like Christianity and Islam were founded separately by people with no knowledge of Judaism.
There's a lot of cynicism surrounding Christianity and the dovetail of losing one's faith and gaining critical thinking skills. I've watched people lose their faith, gain faith, become stronger or weaker in their faith, hop from one side of the fence to the other in indecision, and develop an alternative strain of faith.
I've watched the way people have dealt with these situations; both their own situations and the they way they've dealt with other people in similar circumstances. I've seen people quietly trickle away from the church world, people storm out in a flame of anger, and people hang around making venomous, bitter barbs at appropriate moments.
One of the things that all these scenarios have in common is that the people involved developed a certain level of cynicism and became critical about the church. It's a fairly natural stage: you were heavily involved in a sub-culture, and to move out of it you need to distance yourself and view it in a different light. Cynicism also seems to be a natural stage of the journey from fundamentalist to liberal to whatever comes next.
But after a while, people tone the cynicism down and move on. Mostly they figure the Christian phase was a few years of their life, or their childhood, but it's over. Or if they stay within the church, they figure out a way to do so with the minimum level of cognitive dissonance possible.
I've noticed a correlation between the level of cynicism post-Christianity (or being more vocal about it) and the depth of sincerity that people had when they were still Christians. The more you believed it, the more heavily involved you were, the heavier the toll. It's harder to leave, harder to reconcile your life and choose a new way of thinking without coming across shreds of the older way that tear you up.
In a way it's like the five stages of grief. See the following:
Stage 0 – "Primal or Undifferentiated" faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (i.e. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse). If consistent nurture is experienced, one will develop a sense of trust and safety about the universe and the divine. Conversely, negative experiences will cause one to develop distrust with the universe and the divine. Transition to the next stage begins with integration of thought and languages which facilitates the use of symbols in speech and play.
Stage 1 – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious.
Stage 2 – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), stage two persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic.
Stage 3 – "Synthetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence) characterized by conformity
Stage 4 – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for his or her beliefs and feelings.
Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis) acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems
Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith, or what some might call "enlightenment".
A really good movie on this if you're interested actually, is The Human Centipede. You should get it out from your video store, as I think it'll help you with what you're going through.
On June 21 2011 18:34 Azzur wrote: Hi man, I feel for you because what you're going through is a very testing period of your life. I hope that you will emerge from it a stronger person!
I'm a Christian apologist, which means that I try and reconcile science and faith. I believe in everything mentioned in the Bible - from creation in 7 days, Noah's Ark and Jesus.
One of the more controversial topics is of course creation. If creation is interpreted literally, not only is the universe made in 7 days, but that means that the Earth is under 10,000 years old (as opposed to the scientifically accepted 4b years). I get this 10,000 years because the complete genealogy from Jesus to Adam is written in the first chapter of Matthew. Then, when you add up all the years that those men lived, you get around 6,000 years.
The reason I can reconcile these differences is because of the understanding of "time". Many people will say that the Bible is paraphrasing, and that when it says 7 days, it is 7 "figurative" days. However, I don't accept that. Modern science has shown that time is completely different from what the layman understands (Einstein's Theory of Relativity).
Also, I believe that we are on the cusp of broadening our understanding of the universe. Einstein's theory is now breaking down when applied on the quantum level. It is possible that in our lifetime, a new theory will supersede it.
The next thing to consider is the timing of when Jesus arrived into the world. He didn't go to a random civilization during the dark ages. He came to the Jews at the height of the Classical era. This meant that the Romans had good roads (vital for spreading The Word) and kept good records. There were many eye witness accounts on Jesus' life.
Now, also consider the 3 main monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. If you study the early history of their books, you'll find them quite similar. In fact, both Islam and Judaism acknowledge the existence of Jesus (but as a prophet). Coupled with the fact that the people living in those areas now are still fighting over their right over the land. The story has been passed down from generations to generations and good records are kept.
Having all this knowledge is all well and good. But the main thing - faith and love is the most important. I guess having that knowledge is what sustains me during difficult times.
Thankfully it was apologetics that helped me shift my thinking from being a Christian to becoming an atheist. It took several years. Charles Colson (look him up on Wikipedia) did a radio show on Focus on the Family (run by James Dobson) encouraging people to question their faith and look for the evidence in an attempt to 'arm' Christians with the necessary debating skills to argue with atheists such as Dawkins. I am grateful for that programme for setting me on that journey, even though the destination I came to was not the one he would have hoped.
Edit: A great place to start is a series of apologetic writings called the New Perspective on Paul - at least that's where I was able to start to see Christianity in a more critical light (and then eventually for the ridiculousness that it is).
When I first began theological studies from a conservative Protestant background, I quickly found a universally accepted truth was that salvation was "by faith alone", it was "by grace" and that it was our duty to "rest" on "Christ's finished work". It was considered important to realize that we could "add nothing" to "Christ's atoning work". It was important that we didn't try to "save ourselves" by "human effort". It was extremely important not to add the least bit of "works" to salvation, otherwise you'd be like those (heretical) Roman Catholics and teach (evil) "Works Based Salvation".
Paul's writings about "by grace through faith not works" were considered "irrefutable proof" of this view. Anyone who said anything different was being "unbiblical" and "straying" from the Bible's teachings. Salvation by "human effort" was how "human religions" worked, and all humans who are "in the flesh" inherently by their psychology wanted to try to save themselves, whereas the fact that Christianity relied on God alone for salvation separated it from other religions and caused it to be "nonsense" and "foolishness" to the "natural man". I found that in some quarters there was even worry that our very belief in and acceptance of Christ's finished work for us might be considered something we do, as a work based on human effort that saves us. Thus, some thought that we ought to think of even our faith in Christ's finished atoning work as something given graciously to us by God.
However, now that I've learned a bit more than I once knew about both Pauline theology and the Church Fathers, it is with amusement that I look back on such ideas and claims.
Advances in biblical scholarship in the last thirty years have well and truly refuted the "irrefutable evidence" of Paul's grace, faith and works language... Ironically it turned out that grace didn't mean grace, faith didn't mean faith, and works didn't mean works. The New Perspective on Paul has thus cast Paul's writings in quite a different light to the ideas above. Far from being the apostle who rejects the value of human effort, it in fact turns out that not once in any of his writings does Paul reject or deny the value or saving value of human effort to avail before God, and in fact he regularly affirms it.
Studying the early Church Fathers has been no less interesting. I find it reasonable to assume (contrary to some Protestants) that Christianity didn't suddenly disappear out of the world the moment that the New Testament was completed, and that post-NT Christian writings accurately depict the major doctrines of early Christianity. There's a quote by Clement of Alexandria (~200AD) that succinctly summarizes what appears to have been universal early Christian doctrine: "God desires us to be saved by our own efforts." (Stromata 6.12.96) As is attested in the numerous writings we have from the second century church, Christianity worldwide was a religion of "works based salvation".
It was with great amusement then, and also a little frustration and sadness that I recently read this article which made all the claims I had originally been taught as a conservative protestant about how the true gospel is about us trying to cease from human effort and rely on God's salvation. In the article he writes: "We do not need a better set of how to's, or a better teacher, or a better therapist." Which brought to my mind all the early Christian writings which boasted about Christianity providing precisely these three things. It is really quite amazing, when I reflect on it, that Christianity has come in such a full circle that this writer, in the belief that he is proclaiming the true Christian gospel can be attacking the very essence of original Christianity.
Hey there. As a Christian myself, I can tell you straight out that its completely normal to doubt. I, too, am in University, grew up knowing about the Bible and God, but only truely became a Christian in the complete sense about 3 years ago. It was also how so many of my peers and friends at church came to be.
Anyways, I'll try keeping this short, so others don't try to bash my beliefs too much.
First of all, let me just say that God does 'not' have grandchildren. You can not inherit the title of a christian from your parents, because to be a Christian you have more than just believe it, as you're taught in Sunday School. Each individual person must make a consciencious and willing decision to call themselves a Christian. There is no God, the grandfather. To doubt means that you have begun to search for the Reason for God (Also a great book title by Timothy Keller, which helped me change the life of one of my closest friends).
To your first question: What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? Religion, as put by some, is justifying yourself through faith. It is the idea that through your faith you can present yourself as a moral human being and thus, not a sinner. Christianity however, is the core belief that everything we do, no matter how good we look compared to everyone else falls miserably short of God's standards. It was so bad that it took divine intervention in the form of Jesus Christ.
At this point you may question the existance of Jesus. Did he even exist? Did he perform breathtaking miracles? Was he crucified? Did he rise from the dead? Let me tell you then, among even aethist researchers and those of other religions that there are 3 main points that they all agree on.
1. Jesus of Nazareth existed. As a historical source, the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments) is considered First Hand evidence simply because the Gospels were written between 10 and 40ish years after the death of Jesus, by those who were there. Numerous other sources about Jesus also exist, but I won't go into them here. 2. Jesus changed lives. No one ever doubted the fact that Jesus's teachings managed to change the lives of many people back in the Roman Era and in the present day. Case Study: John Newton, the composer of Amazing Grace. Formerly a slaver, deserter and slanderer. 3. That Jesus died on the Cross, via crucifixion, for the crime of Blasphemy against God almighty. Verified by more sources than just the bible. 4. That on the third day, the tomb was empty. Not that Jesus was risen, specifically, but that it was empty. Jews and Aethists main arguement was that the disciples stole the body. ie, managed to get past a guard (In the original Greek a guard is more like a squad) and steal the body, when they disowned Jesus at his trial (Matthew 27: 62-66).
The most important thing to understand about Jesus is that God is Just. He will not abide by sin, but loves his creation. So before he can offer salvation he must first judge and condem. To purify the world he has to clear sin. but back to the idea of Just, it can't just be removed without consequence. It can only be transfered to someone else and it can't be on anybody with sin, because no person in God's eyes was without, and thus already deserved God's Wrath. For us to be saved, someone else has to suffer. Thats the reason for Jesus. He was the "Passover Lamb", Exodus, so that 'we' won't suffer the wrath of God.
However, salvation doesn't mean anything if Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Jesus rising from the dead signifies the eternal life that God promised (The death of Death in the death of Christ).
As a result, that is why as Christians, we try to uphold God's moral standard. Its not so much a commandment in the present Era, as a sign of respect, for Jesus. Jesus suffered Hell, literally, for us and we show our thanks by living as his people.
Again, I can't emphasis enough how normal the phase you're going through is. I aplaud your sense of morals and your holding onto them while doubting.
However I must addmit, I don't know much about getting past the phase. My own story is that I always hated the inflexibilty of the few churches that I went to, and the lack of children/people my age. I started to question and was eventually invited to a Christian youth camp with people my age (hundredreds of them per weekend, over 3 weekends - virtually booked out) and the big selling point honestly for me, was Contemporary Christian Music that I understood, rather than the stuff that was played at my pervious churches (Parents were migrants).
But yeah, this turned out a hellova lot longer than I anticipated, so I'm just going to leave it at that. Feel free to message me, anyone, if you have questions about what I wrote, or if you're just interested in finding out more.
Christian here and sort of went through the same phase. I sort of grew up in a Christian background (mom was a Christian, dad was very opposed to it) and I was given the freedom to decide for myself what I wanted to believe in. I made the leap around my late teens. And it wasn't from going to a church camp.
My personal opinion is that ultimately, you will never be able to get rid of doubt and ascertain the truth. The truth is pretty much only known by the ultimate creator of the universe (deities/random luck) and men can try as much to become deities and discover truth, but it will just never happen, until the creator (deities or random luck) reveals itself (whether he/it chooses to). So worrying so much about it is not worth it.
This is where faith sets the difference. I feel that my faith, even if there is elements of doubt, it gives my life a bit more meaning and faith sort of leads to a better understanding of the world and people around me. I'm not saying that you should count on faith alone, but for me, my faith drives me to discover and learn more about the world and do my best to succeed in my calling.
Whether I'm right or wrong, it's given me direction, made me a better person in various ways (intellectually and personality-wise) and if anything has made me more open minded and responsible than if I had remained a non-believer with no aim in life.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God?
As for whether the Old Testament is meant to be read literally or figuratively, I'm off the opinion that the Old Testament were written based on the understandings of that particular period, which makes it subject to slight contextual distortions. However the important thing is the meaning behind the story and I don't think these contextual distortions take away its meaning. I'm not however a scholar so I'm not someone you can count on when it comes to this. But various apologetics can provide answers. From a Christian POV, you can go to various apologetic websites and find answers to your question. Just Google it up.
However do note that for every apologetic website that are almost twice or three websites with arguments against it. The world (particularly the internet realm) is getting more and more atheistic influenced. If you feel you're prepared to face those arguments go ahead. I did, and I found that atheist arguments aren't very good either and they don't explain the world any better than Christianity does.
Which leads us back to where I started in that you can never discover the ultimate truth and it's just not worth it making yourself feel worried, guilty or stressed for attempting to find the roots of our existence. The best you can do is to find what works best for YOU or hope/pray for some sort of spiritual experience.
When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
The thing about Christianity is that it isn't a moral code. It's about a group of people coming to terms that they are sinners and repenting about it. It does not mean you are condemned if you sin. It also does not mean that you automatically stop sinning ever. If that were the case we wouldn't need a Savior. We are all human and are all equally likely to be tempted.
What it does mean however is that we repent and sanctify ourselves. Repentance means that we honestly confess that we have sin and attempt to turn away. Some people experience repentance easily and can stop most of their sins almost immediately after repentance. That's why there's a need to continually repent and ask for forgiveness (Lord's Prayer).
Ultimately only one person can judge you and that is God himself. If you feel convicted that you are doing wrong and not repenting then do repent and start attempting to turn away from your sin. A Christian life is a life of growing, and if you are unable to turn away from your sin, there is always more chances for repentance.
Just understand that Jesus himself was tempted and if you're worried about judgment, believe that Jesus understands and intercedes for you based on his experience being tempted. There's a verse somewhere in Hebrews 6 (if I'm correct), and I'm too lazy to look it up.
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Serving God shouldn't just be confined to direct evangelizing or serving at a Church. There is so many ways you can serve God. By helping a friend in need, being an example to others, inventing cures for diseases, putting yourself in a position (by studying/working hard) of influence. There are a limitless number of ways you can serve God. Tell me of the things I've just mentioned, which one is a waste of time? It's not. If you don't feel called to serve in a Church, try to find ways you can serve in which you can be happy and you can still glorify God. Writing music, stories, etc, maybe?
Being a Christian doesn't mean you can't live your life to the fullest. Yes there are limits to how "full" you can live your life by being a Christian, but for me, I think that those boundaries are put in place because exceeding those boundaries will only bring more harm than good. Yes for awhile you may feel great wih all the "pleasures" of those exceeding those boundaries, but ultimately there comes a price to it. It's a very common verse, but remember "everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial and constructive" (paraphrasing 1 Corinthians 10:23-24)
Again, exceeding those boundaries doesn't mean you're judged for eternal condemnation. There is always a chance for repentance.
I never imagined myself talking about my faith on a Starcraft forums but I felt you may need the encouragement. It's a very Christian biased opinion, but I hope they help.
the only thing I ever say about this topic is Pascal's wager. No real down side but if you're right the benefit is good. lol I will add however that 800 years old = growing seasons and other stuff. so it was like 10 years = 1 or something ridiculous by the way some of the time is mentioned lol
Don't take offense from anything here (it isn't intended to be offensive, more like just a hard opinion to deal with).
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
Me too. When you believe in an afterlife and a guiding force, the living is easy. But it is just too idealistic and baseless; I can't force myself to believe in something I want to be true if it can't be proven.
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it?
The Bible was written thousands of years ago by various contributors over the course of several centuries and has been translated and retranslated over time. The Bible is hard to believe because it is created by these people. That's why I get frustrated when people quote the Bible as a source of proof, which it isn't (no more than the Iliad is). I honestly think it is fine to believe in God, as we cannot determine the existence of God, but the rigidity of the religion (that tells you you must believe in everything the Bible says) isn't really fair for those reasons. It is only natural for you as a young man to question these things.
I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Why? You don't need religion as a moral compass to tell you what to do. And honestly, I feel like a better person since I stopped believing in God. For example, my best friend in middle school for 6 years was an atheist, and I HAD to believe that he would burn forever. Even though I didn't know why I HAD to believe that, I did. That's not a good thing. I also was told that people who got divorced were evil, gays were evil, I was evil for missing church and would surely go to Hell (that's totally fair to a 12 year old), and I just got sick of it. Ever since I became an atheist, I became more involved in the non-religious community, whether in real life or with people online, and discovered that most of them were very kind and rational and were just sick of being told what to do and think and watching others be told what to do and think.
So live your life. I know it is hard at first to let go, as it is with an fixture in your life. But I have experienced what you described, let go of my faith, and now feel like I am a better person and see good in people for their kindness and sincerity rather than their faith. You should do what is right because you think it is right, not because another human being thousands of years ago thought he knew best and wrote it all down. Hopefully you'll end up happier like I have. (: gl
On June 21 2011 18:34 Azzur wrote: The next thing to consider is the timing of when Jesus arrived into the world. He didn't go to a random civilization during the dark ages. He came to the Jews at the height of the Classical era. This meant that the Romans had good roads (vital for spreading The Word) and kept good records. There were many eye witness accounts on Jesus' life.
Now, also consider the 3 main monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. If you study the early history of their books, you'll find them quite similar. In fact, both Islam and Judaism acknowledge the existence of Jesus (but as a prophet). Coupled with the fact that the people living in those areas now are still fighting over their right over the land. The story has been passed down from generations to generations and good records are kept.
I find both of these points to be extremely odd arguments in favor of Christianity because they're usually used to debunk it.
There are no eye witness accounts on the life of Jesus. According to the Bible, he was literate, but he never wrote any books, nor did his disciples. The gospels attributed to the apostles were originally untitled and anonymous and only later associated with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; they weren't written contemporaneously with Jesus. Despite the Romans' good record keeping, there isn't a single record of Jesus having ever existed. The best historical references to Jesus are brief mentions of people talking about someone named Christ many decades later.
As to the similarity of Jesus in religion, his story is also very similar to older gods such as Dionysus, Horus, and Mithras. Of course Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are similar: they were founded in the same region. Even Jesus was supposedly a Jew, and the first Christians were all Jews. It's not like Christianity and Islam were founded separately by people with no knowledge of Judaism.
The Bible 'is' an Eye Witness Account. Carbon dating on what are known as the "Dead Sea Scrolls" - scrolls found near the Dead Sea, including the Gospels and several of the Old Testament, date back to the very very early periods of Christianity.
Roman bookeeping records Christians as criminals, and didn't document the person Jesus, while through archaelogical means it shows that the Romans were completely aware of Jesus. - See Life of Jesus DVD - Stone altar dedicated to God/Jesus by a Roman Centurion, dating back to the First Centuary AD.
Another point is that 1 Corinthian is signed letter from Paul to the Corinth Church. In Chapter 15, it says: 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
This was written in the lifetime of Paul, who was alive in the time of Jesus, and says that Jesus appeared to more than 500 people, most of whom were alive. These were people that the readers of the letter could go and question, who were open to cross-examination. They 'were' first hand eye witnesses, and for example, what Jury would convict an innocent man if 500 eye witnesses stood up for him?
And yes. Judaism came first. They're Holy Book, the Torah, is the Old Testament of the Holy Bible, which Christian believe points to the coming of Christ Jesus, the fulfillemt of the promise given by God to Abraham.
Islam came after Christianity, and is of the belief that each new prophet (they see Jesus as a prophet rather than the son of God) phases out the teachings and significance of the old, whereas again, from the Bible: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. - Revelations 22:18-19.
The other Gods/Entities you mention, die and are raised for a completely different reason, such as the seasons, rather than for anything even close to the idea of Salvation. eg, Osiris dies in Winter and Isis raises him up from the dead in Summer.
The question you should ask yourself before everything else, in my opinion, is "Why is the concept of God is important to me and why do I believe in him?"
If the answer is something like "Because I believed in him since a was born" you should ask yourself if you ever considered the question before this phase you are going through and it should be pretty much eye openning for you at this point.
Think about it : You pretty much accept the beliefs given to you by you parents. If your parents are Jews, Christian or muslim, chances are you practice the same religion as them!
No matter what the decision you take, it is time to think rationnaly by yourself alone and ask yourself if the religion you are in makes sense or not to you : Critical thinking.
If you make a "switch of beliefs", you might get in a difficult psycholgical phase especially because you integrated "God" in your life since so long; such a change would makes it difficult to adapt depending on were you transpose your beliefs.
As an agnostic atheist, I'd say you will respond by one of the three following :
- Denial and return to intial beliefs;
- Switch to other spirital beliefs (any deist or weak agnostic position);
- Belief switch (using critical thinking aquired in college) and then making a switch of beliefs to atheism or strong agnostic position (might cause a mild or severe depression depending on the implications those new beliefs cause on your life [eg. : life after death, meaning of life, etc...]).
I wish you good luck, I know what you are passing through.
On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote: I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
On June 21 2011 18:11 Kerotan wrote: I feel like I was in a very similar position, when I read this line: "I really want to believe in God" it bought it home. I really wanted to believe because I was terrified of death, I had the same questions as you and it all seemed increasingly like a farce, yet I still believed because I needed a security blanket. I don't want to be too preachy, but I'm going to close with this: You can be a good person and not believe in god.
Yeah this is exactly how I feel. The reason I want to believe is because A) I am scared of death and I want to believe there is life after death and B) it feels to me that life is almost pointless (in a way) without Christianity. We're basically no different from any other animal; we're born, we reproduce, we die. I want to believe there is something else in our lives that makes us different.
On June 21 2011 20:01 OmniEulogy wrote: the only thing I ever say about this topic is Pascal's wager. No real down side but if you're right the benefit is good.
Haha I thought about this too. But if the reason why I believe in God is just to avoid hell, I think God would know that lol.
On June 21 2011 18:11 Kerotan wrote: I feel like I was in a very similar position, when I read this line: "I really want to believe in God" it bought it home. I really wanted to believe because I was terrified of death, I had the same questions as you and it all seemed increasingly like a farce, yet I still believed because I needed a security blanket. I don't want to be too preachy, but I'm going to close with this: You can be a good person and not believe in god.
Yeah this is exactly how I feel. The reason I want to believe is because A) I am scared of death and I want to believe there is life after death and B) it feels to me that life is almost pointless (in a way) without Christianity. We're basically no different from any other animal; we're born, we reproduce, we die. I want to believe there is something else in our lives that makes us different.
We are different in that we are more self aware. We don't just try to eat, reproduce like animals, but we have (more complex) feelings, we seek happiness more so than animals do. We have more and more complex social interactions; that's what makes us different.
On June 21 2011 19:45 Revanchist wrote: 1. Jesus of Nazareth existed. As a historical source, the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments) is considered First Hand evidence simply because the Gospels were written between 10 and 40ish years after the death of Jesus, by those who were there. Numerous other sources about Jesus also exist, but I won't go into them here. 2. Jesus changed lives. No one ever doubted the fact that Jesus's teachings managed to change the lives of many people back in the Roman Era and in the present day. Case Study: John Newton, the composer of Amazing Grace. Formerly a slaver, deserter and slanderer. 3. That Jesus died on the Cross, via crucifixion, for the crime of Blasphemy against God almighty. Verified by more sources than just the bible. 4. That on the third day, the tomb was empty. Not that Jesus was risen, specifically, but that it was empty. Jews and Aethists main arguement was that the disciples stole the body. ie, managed to get past a guard (In the original Greek a guard is more like a squad) and steal the body, when they disowned Jesus at his trial (Matthew 27: 62-66).
It's a fact that Jesus existed and died on the cross, but the question is did he rise from the dead? When he rose from the dead he didn't show himself to the general public (I wish he did lol.) So only his followers spread the word that he lived, but, its his followers. They could've made it up. They could've stole the body to make it seem like he rose from the dead though.
i dont understand your fear of death. when you are dead you wont feel fear anyway. Maybe you are more afraid of the act of dying ?
I grew up in a quite relifious family with 1 hardcore-christ (my sister). But i never felt the need to believe in god (like way to many people want me to think). i got my confirmation, but only because i didnt have the balls to say "why should i ?"
it took sometime for me to feel strong enough to stand the pressure of society to say "im an atheist and im proud": I left the church and dont regret it. just to make sure: i dont believe in god, what other people believe in i dont care as long as they dont come to convert me.
something is bothering me in you first post: you said you really want to believe in god. by stating this you already put yourself in a tricky situation because you wont tolerate a different background than "god exist". maybe you should start again think, from a totally neutral point of view, as far as its possible. ask other people, try to avoid any religious hardliner and ask fpeople who never thought about this. after this you could start to talk to people from both extreme points. the hardcore-christs and he atheists. this will give you more informations through the whole spectrum ob believing. maybe helping you to find the place where you find yourself.
something to read: maybe you should check the American Heart Journal April/2006, there was an experiment considering the effect of praying.
sth about the bible: the bible is a very dangerous book imo. too many people say "its full of love and peace" but they never read it with poened eyes. there are so many cruel actions and all in the name of their god. In cse you want to read them: Judge 19, 23-24 4. Moses 20 5. Moses 20, 16-17 Lucas 14, 26 Josua 6, 16-24
I read the Bible once. Mostly because I love reading books and it was the only book my grandparents had in their house. I was never brought up with going to church and stuff, not even by these grandparents. As a child I was taught I should pray every night and random child stuff but never forced to go to church. By the time I got to read the Bible I took it as fiction, sort of.
It is after all a book written by countless people. Put together in church meetings until sometime around year 1K so I'm pretty sure it has changed quite a bit in that time. It's also pretty obvious most of it is hyperbole, parable and overall moral views as seen through the eyes of certain men living in a certain time, then modified by other men living in other times. If you start peeling off some of the subjectivity of the time, adopt some of the rules we have now it is actually a very decent book about morals through time. And morals Christianity should promote.
It is also what gave me the idea that faith ruled by men is fake. Churches aren't required to believe, fake, a controlling entity, ruined by internal quarrels and egos, initially used to control the simple folk (most people were illiterate and kept that way by the influence of the church), used to control the destinies of empires. It is quite an obvious divergence between what the Bible says Jesus said and the way Christians act and the way Church acted/still acts.
In the end I have no idea if I believe in a God or not, it's irrelevant, One as presented in the New Testament wouldn't care if people believed or not, actions and life matter. You could call me agnostic, or an atheist since I don't actually ever think if I believe or not, nor do I care. I just know I do not care about the word of the so called Church. While I agree there are priests that might care, as an institution it is not relevant for my faith (or lack of).
It's more of an example looking at what Islam has become. From the guardian of knowledge during the Dark Ages it has become as the Christian church once was, preying on the poor and illiterate to do the bidding of powerful men.
Quite sickening, organized religion is, in my own eyes, a fake, a plague.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
While this is a bias quote it brings up a good point. Look to all other religions. Maybe you will find one that you do not reject. Like has been said do not limit yourself to your cultural or geographical location when related to your faith. Explore all faiths to decide what you believe in. or not.
Okay, note that I've only read the OP so sorry if this is redundant.
I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
You just miss the times when you were a child. Sadly, as you grow up and become more aware of everything of course you're going to question everything.
One thing I'll say though is that I don't consider "blind faith" faith. Faith is faith because it can be questioned. Even the greatest Christians are shaken of their beliefs at times. Does that mean they are faithless?
Faith cannot be blind. Faith comes when you naturally come to terms with yourself and begin understand your own limitations. It is only then when "God" means something. Sadly most people in the world have an overly inflated sense of their limitations nowadays, which is why people tend to move away from it.
Read Kierkegaard.
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect
I personally hold zero opinion on whether some of the stories in the Bible are true or not. In the end, it does not matter. Christianity is more than these background stories.
It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
Is there a heaven and hell? Why do you care? The thing about people believing in heaven and hell is that they have such a preconceived notion of it to the point where it's not believable. I don't believe in Pearly gates or physical sulphuric fire you suffer for the rest of your life. But I do believe in the notion of heaven and hell, but it's probably not the way you conceive it.
Is there a God? There's probably not a God that meets YOUR definition. I don't believe in a man in the sky who just answers prayers when I want him to. Your definition of God, your understanding of who God is is likely wrong and you will need to develop this over time with experience.
Why are you beating yourself up over it? Because you haven't fully realized the redemptive power of the Gospel.
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Nearly every Christian goes through this phase, I believe. It's something that is needed for the most to mature.
Why do you not think "Serving God" isn't living your life to the fullest?
Think about it a bit more. Notice that you can always set up strawmans for Christianity and knock it down all you want. But understand that you've barely touched the surface of it all.
Great claims demand great evidence. If we personally witnessed a man who could predict the future with perfect accuracy, turn water into wine, and part the sea, I think most people's views of religion may be changed. But in the absence of great evidence, one must look at these things in a different manner.
There is a duality between emotions and reason in the broad sense. Because we're emotional beings, we like to listen to our "hearts." If deep inside we "feel" that there should be some transcendental purpose or morality, we'll tend to try to rationalize it. Moreover, a lot of perfectly intelligent people can be drawn into cults or cult-like organizations, because their emotions trump their reason. A lot of people will turn off their minds in favor of satisfying emotion. I can't denounce that if it doesn't hurt anyone, but personally I believe there is favor in seeking truth.
When someone says they believe in "God," you should realize that they may not have the same conception of God. See, we can all have a pretty good consensus on what a "chair" is. Even though I cannot see into another man's mind to "check" if he has the same image, our ability to interact with it is essentially the same. Yet for God, a more abstract being who we cannot see, the picture is constructed within our minds and cannot be easily compared.
For example, if someone makes an argument for God as a very abstract being, it doesn't justify believe in God as specifically depicted in one religion.
So is there a "God" in the Christian, biblical sense? It is up to you to decide. But personally, having read the bible a few times, I think that the God depicted is too human. I don't know if there is a God or not but my impression is that if one exists, he'd have to be greater than depicted in the bible. There is great violence and suffering in the bible, and there is also discipline, love, and compassion.
When Christians talk about the Bible, they will often simply regurgitate the words they've seen many times, as you can probably see from some of the responses in this thread. i.e "God is Just." Yet all these terms and phrases are meaningless if you cannot communicate the substance behind them. If I say something like "water freezes at 0 degrees C" it has an immediate meaning, yet saying "Jesus died for your sins" does not. Why? Because you have no proof and I have no proof and no way of proof and thus it becomes vacuous. If I hear "Jesus loves you" it is similarly vacuous. Until heard enough that the phrase soaks into your mind and puts "Jesus's love" in various circumstances.
As for historical evidence, why is it that there is no aramaic text of Jesus' words? You'd think that if they valued it so much they would've recorded it like that. Moreover, the outside sources don't seem to provide much evidence. It suggests more that Jesus assumed the role of "messiah" to start a revolution.
If you grew up as a Christian, I think you would have a tendency to believe in some sort of transcendent morality or purpose (as opposed to socially constructed or evolutionary morality). At least that is my personal experience. You don't want to just live and then die, you want to remain forever.
In the grand scheme, is there any worth in pursuing progress, helping others, or striving for the truth beyond the practical gains or feelings of contentment one achieves from doing so? I don't know. I would like to believe so, but perhaps that is just my bias speaking.
I was raised with a pretty hardcore faith upbringing, was forced to go to Christian school and church every Sunday. I went through some really heavy indoctrination especially through the school. By the time I was 18 I started getting really into it and volunteering at the church, and I even wanted to become a pastor. Eventually though I started really thinking about things, which I will actually credit towards plenty time spent living alone and smoking weed, even though I had a strong faith I always had a desire to find the truth so I would question things.
My first biggest problem was with wondering how the books of the Bible were chosen and who got to choose them, I never really found a "good" answer to this, I started questioning more and more while at the same time learning about other philosophies and science which are things my school taught me but with an extreme bias - I realized how different it can be when you learn the other side of the story without hearing it from someone who is trying to make it sound stupid. Finally I got to the point that I realized I wasn't sure of anything regarding my faith, it all seemed very skeptical, and it was only fear of going to hell that was the last thread holding me to it. When I realized that, I gave it up immediately, and never before had I felt so relieved. Ever since I was a small child it was always based on fear.
Telling people they'll go to hell seems rather silly as a rational adult, but it is scary as shit to a little kid, when everyone you know is telling you that.
Go find the apocrypha, read them, and wonder why they were excluded from the bible as we currently know it. I was never able to figure out a reason, maybe you might.
If you're reading the Bible and all of it's entirety literally, you're missing the point. Every story has a lesson to teach, that's how the Bible gets its messages across. I believe absolutely in God, but I have my doubts over the story of Noah, or the tower of Babylon, etc etc. All you need from the Bible is to understand what God wants to teach us, which is to be a better and more loving person.
Remember, no matter who you become, no matter what you do, God will still love you. His love isn't like ours, that it can fade through time. He'll love you now and forever. Live your life happily and you'll start to appreciate all the things in the world that're here because of God. Keep being that good person that you are. Don't preoccupy your mind worrying about losing your morality. If you sin, well then you sin. But God still loves you. Just try and mimic that love. You'll find life to be much more beautiful if you can open your heart to everything.
I've only scanned a few responses, much like Milkis, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating things, too.
To start - I am a Christian and I went through a phase of heavily doubting my faith this winter. Doubts still crop up, so I know what you're talking about. I think you're going to get out of this post what you want to get out of it, so I'll give my perspective and be on my way.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: I know a lot of people here do not believe in God, so if so, I don't need any derogatory responses about Christianity. Hopefully some Christians and non-Christians can help me out here.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised you're asking TL this question, but seeing the responses I'm glad that the militant Christians and atheists have had a good discussion. Way to go, TL!
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: So anyway, I've been struggling with my faith lately. I was a Christian since I was born, but lately I've been questioning Christianity more and more (especially since I'm in college now). I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
Those were the days, huh? In fact, there are several Gospel verses giving a lot of credit to children and the faith of a child. Obviously the faith of your childhood is gone, but that happens to everyone. Having the faith of a child doesn't mean you just accept things as they are, but that you receive direction and learn as a child would. As adults we decide what we want to do and do it. When we were young are parents decided it for us. In the same way, our Father disciplines our faith.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
Since you've read the Bible you know that the New Testament is a lot more literal than the Old, so I'll focus on the Old here. The Old Testament has a lot of "out-there" and "imaginative" stories. You're going to find people out there who believe them word-for-word and others trying to understand what, exactly, they mean. You're going to find people that believe them verbatim, and you'll find people that look for the meaning behind the message. I was educated in a Catholic high school and we delved into this topic in our theology class on numerous occasions. Men may have been 800 years old by our standards, 800 years old from past time measurements, or just "really old" with Hebrew numeric symbolism embellishing the details. Goliath and the Philistines could have been a race of giants, or they could have been a lot of people possessing great military power. That's not to say all the Old Testament stories are like this, but if it is all you're focusing on then you're missing the big picture. The Old Testament starts with God's covenant to Abraham and later Moses, the Jews, David, and others. It gives a set of laws, punishments, and means of forgiveness. It gives a rough military history and line of kings. Most important are the prophesies of this mysterious person who is good enough to actually uphold the really strict covenant laid out in the Pentateuch, but there are so many seemingly impossible characteristics they need to uphold that such a person couldn't possibly exist. I look at that and believe how wonderful it is that God set all these impossible standards and then fulfilled them Himself!
The rest of your questions are hard to answer since they're all questions of personal faith. But I will agree that it is not easy to believe all this.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote: Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Things like "moral degredation" and slipping from Biblical standards DO feel bad. In a society where you're only limited by the limitations you place on yourself you get the feeling that you're missing out on "living life to the fullest". And what exactly does that mean? Are you looking for an excuse to throw all caution to the wind? You can abuse substances, have lots of sex, cuss up a storm, and just experience ANYTHING that comes your way without thinking twice. Will that REALLY bring you happiness? You can try, but I can tell you from personal experience that it didn't work out that way for me. But that doesn't mean we can't "live life to the fullest", it just means our definition of "fullest" isn't the more worldly definition. Christians are called to live in the world and not of the world. In that respect there is a degree of sacrifice. I can also tell you from personal experience that the doubt only gets worse when you constantly throw that caution to the wind since you're juxtaposing your ideals.
I've been through this and I'm hard-pressed to think of any Christian over the age of 25 who hasn't been through a period like this. All faith is tested. If you "really want to believe in God" then take additional steps. Talk to pastors and clergymen. Talk to church-goers. Talk to parents. Talk to someone who knows what you're going through and who you feel comfortable with. It's these people who helped me through the worst of my doubt. The walk of faith is a hard road and you won't get through it without support.
I'm a hardcore atheist, but I do think there are good reasons why someone would choose to believe in god. We're all human beings, and human beings are driven by emotions. Anyone, no matter how skeptic, are only motivated to move, breathe and eat. Because our emotions tells us to. Physiologically, emotions are just chemicals, but we need emotions to survive.
But emotions are different for each individual. Each one have different genes and react differently to different chemicals. So each one needs different emotions to survive. Some of us do just fine knowing there's no god. Other's need to believe in god to be able to hold themselves every day.
Bottomline. You need to find if you really need to believe in god or not. If you're the type of person who would be ok with no god. Then just believe there's no god. But if you find that you need to believe in god to keep motivated each day. Then just believe in god and be happy. Can you live with yourself knowing that once you die, you just get eaten by worms and your conscience just disappears? Are you ok knowing that there's no superior definition of morals, no good vs evil, and all that you think is wrong and dislike actually might be good for someone else?
First ask yourself these questions. Find if you really need god to live. If you do, then believe in god and be happy. If you don't, then don't believe in god and be happy. Pretty simple.
Personally. My main motivation to live each day, is knowing that I can use my labor to help build a better world. And that after I'm dead, the world will be a better place because I was here. Knowing that I helped humanity progress after I'm dead, gives me motivation to actually try to make that happen with all my powers. I don't need to believe god is sending me to heaven if I'm a good boy. I can find my own motivation to do good and keep living without needing to believe in god. So I don't believe in god. But if you need to believe, I find that's understandable, just do what you need to keep happy.
A really good movie on this if you're interested actually, is The Human Centipede. You should get it out from your video store, as I think it'll help you with what you're going through.
On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote: I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote: I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew?
I celebrate and accept both religions as my own.
Why bother? If you're one of the chosen you don't need to be Catholic.
On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote: I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew?
I celebrate and accept both religions as my own.
Why bother? If you're one of the chosen you don't need to be Catholic.
On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote: I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew?
I celebrate and accept both religions as my own.
Why bother? If you're one of the chosen you don't need to be Catholic.
huh?
He's referring to this about Judaism: "In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews are the Chosen People, chosen to be in a covenant with God"
I'm now a committed atheist, and you sound pretty much exactly how I did when I was ~15 years old. I basically agree with all of the points you brought up in your OP, and it's part of why I became an atheist. Here are a few scattered thoughts of mine that you may want to consider.
At this point, it looks to me like you're probably going to at least slip into a more liberal brand of Christianity where you believe more of the stuff is just a "metaphor" or whatever. I find this belief to be harmless and I suppose it technically makes sense, but it is really still quite irrational imo. Liberal Christianity generally involves people just cherrypicking the bits from the Bible that they like, and labeling the rest as a "metaphor."
I really don't understand the point of this. If you're doing this, then you obvious have your own idea of what right and wrong is and how you should live your life. In this case, why do you need to pick passages out of some book to justify it? Isn't your own sense of reason enough? How are you going to "it's a metaphor" away the passages in the Bible condoning slavery, racism, homophobia, and genocide? Perhaps most importantly, does your personal and biased sense of right and wrong have anything to do with what passages in the Bible are literally true? It just requires so many rationalizations and cherry-picking that I find it much more sensible to just write it all off as bunk, written by flawed people who were just trying to find some justification for what they perceived as being right and good.
Another thing to think about is why do you say that you "want" to believe in God? Personally, I want to believe in what's true - if you have an emotional inclination toward one answer over another, I would say that you should ask yourself why. Is it because being a Christian is your comfort zone? Is it because you like the idea of an afterlife? Is it because you feel like being a Christian is the morally right thing to do? All of these are biases that have nothing to do with what's actually true, and you should try to get rid of them if you are really seeking truth. The more you "want" one side or another to be true, the less likely it is that you are going to be logical in your thinking instead of using fallacies and cognitive dissonance to justify your preferred stance.
I could write a lot more on this subject, but I think it would overlap a lot with what people have already said. I hope you find a position in this topic which makes you happy, and which doesn't involve any offensive beliefs about gay-hating or eternal Hell etc.
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
The lord will answer you if you ask with faith.
Actually the most likely outcome is that nothing is going to happen, but a Christian will probably attribute silence and nothingness to a supernatural feeling described along the lines of God touched my heart in that moment and I realised that although He doesn't always answer in an audible way blah blah blah.
Reminds me of this:
Why is it that God doesn’t answer prayers?
It has been said that God always answers prayer. Sometimes He says "yes" sometimes he says "no" and sometimes He says "wait a while" [at statistically the same rate as praying to the moon or your favourite stuffed toy]. Sometimes God will answer a prayer in a different way than we have first anticipated [hey, that’s exactly what happens sometimes when I beg to my stuffed toy]. The fact is, many of us pray for things that God knows would only hinder our walk with Him [like say, a cure for cancer] so for our own good He withholds them from us. When we are first born into God’s kingdom we generally get our prayers answered immediately [there’s thousands of studies which prove this] but as we grow God teaches us patience by letting us wait.
Questioning your faith is a good thing to do, as is examining the Bible in its entirety. As a Christian who has grown up in a Christian background, I can assure you that I've gone through this phase of my life as well. If you have any serious questions about the Bible, don't let it sit in your mind or try to give your own interpretation of it, try to ask other Christians/you pastor.
Also, you have to examine yourself. You say you are a good person, but have you ever thought about why you do those things? Doing good things out of sheer willpower alone, I don't think anyone has that ability to do good things constantly day after day. I'm convinced that people who do good things out of sheer willpower alone experience some kind of burnout after a while.
(1) you can believe in God without believing in the literal truth of the bible. That is, you might decide that "Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath" and such are preposterous but still maintain that a higher power exists. (2) even if there is no God, there still remain plenty of good reasons to be a good person, and to follow many of the ethical codes of conduct prescribed by religions. You may not find a reason to serve God, but you can serve humanity with the same seriousness of purpose.
Edit: Actually, just as a general question to all the Christians (including the fundamentalist apologetic who believes the Earth was created in six days) - do you watch porn? If so, how do you reconcile it with your faith?
One general word when examining various arguments for God: you should see what it says about "God"
For example, an old classic argument still used goes roughly as follows: 1) Everything that exists has a cause for its existence 2) The universe must have had a beginning 3) Therefore the universe must have been "caused" by something, which we call God
Barring all the physical and philosophical problems with this type of argument, let us accept for a moment that it is valid. So we accept that there is a great "causer" called "God." That's all we get. The "God" here is so abstract that we can attribute it no specific qualities from this argument. Therefore, this being may as well have no relevance. It is a great invalid leap of faith to then assume that we can take this "God" and attribute it various qualities, such as seen in the Bible. It's a common mistake to do so simply because we call both "God."
For example, Einstein frequently used "God" in his quotes. Obviously he wasn't referring to a specific God of a religion, he meant in a more abstract sense the "universe" itself.
To clarify more, let's look at the example for physics. Often, the mathematical framework of a physical theory may predict phenomenon not yet discovered. Black holes, various particles are examples. The vast difference between these predicted phenomenon and a predicted God based on some argument, is that while physicists have scientific grounds for attributing specific behavior to the objects they predict (for example, this particle should have this mass), the arguments for God cannot predict how he should behave.
If I say, A exists, but cannot definitively say anything about A, then A might as well not exist.
On June 22 2011 08:02 MaxField wrote: Have you tried to pray and ask if there is a god? James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
The lord will answer you if you ask with faith.
Actually the most likely outcome is that nothing is going to happen, but a Christian will probably attribute silence and nothingness to a supernatural feeling described along the lines of God touched my heart in that moment and I realised that although He doesn't always answer in an audible way blah blah blah.
Reminds me of this:
Why is it that God doesn’t answer prayers?
It has been said that God always answers prayer. Sometimes He says "yes" sometimes he says "no" and sometimes He says "wait a while" [at statistically the same rate as praying to the moon or your favourite stuffed toy]. Sometimes God will answer a prayer in a different way than we have first anticipated [hey, that’s exactly what happens sometimes when I beg to my stuffed toy]. The fact is, many of us pray for things that God knows would only hinder our walk with Him [like say, a cure for cancer] so for our own good He withholds them from us. When we are first born into God’s kingdom we generally get our prayers answered immediately [there’s thousands of studies which prove this] but as we grow God teaches us patience by letting us wait.
There is no reason to mock my post. I am a christian and i have had my prayers answered many times, and if he is doubting, then i believe this is a possible solution to his problem. It is obvious that you do not believe in what i do, but making fun of them adds nothing to this thread.
though i gave up on christianity a year ago or so, im beginning to question the concept of religion.. does it really make sense that a higher deity ruled out options of our life to gain paradise? I dont know if im being naive asking that question but, I believe religion was set to create better morals through hope, an easily swayed emotion and its just a coveted form of a code. Im Agnostic btw, cant deny the existence of a god, but i can say i deny the concept of religion
It's no big deal, honestly. The prodigal son isn't in the bible just to lecture people about how going your own way isn't a good thing. It's not as if your departure means excommunication by any means. If anything, you have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.
The trick is to keep an open and analytic mind. The absence of guidelines is often the absence of guidance in general. Christianity does not float on ignorance alone, and unless you think your parents are absolute idiots, give some credence to the notion that they're in the same deal for a reason beyond simple upbringing.
On June 22 2011 08:57 MaxField wrote: There is no reason to mock my post. I am a christian and i have had my prayers answered many times, and if he is doubting, then i believe this is a possible solution to his problem. It is obvious that you do not believe in what i do, but making fun of them adds nothing to this thread.
except some atheists are so blind in their unbelief that whatever you say won't do anything... essentially.
my family and I had several circumstances where our prayers have been answered/miracles happened, but it's essentially pointless to talk to an atheist about it.
However that aside, indeed, he has no reason to bash at us.
On June 22 2011 08:10 Human Centipede wrote: Actually the most likely outcome is that nothing is going to happen, but a Christian will probably attribute silence and nothingness to a supernatural feeling described along the lines of God touched my heart in that moment and I realised that although He doesn't always answer in an audible way blah blah blah.
Reminds me of this:
Why is it that God doesn’t answer prayers?
It has been said that God always answers prayer. Sometimes He says "yes" sometimes he says "no" and sometimes He says "wait a while" [at statistically the same rate as praying to the moon or your favourite stuffed toy]. Sometimes God will answer a prayer in a different way than we have first anticipated [hey, that’s exactly what happens sometimes when I beg to my stuffed toy]. The fact is, many of us pray for things that God knows would only hinder our walk with Him [like say, a cure for cancer] so for our own good He withholds them from us. When we are first born into God’s kingdom we generally get our prayers answered immediately [there’s thousands of studies which prove this] but as we grow God teaches us patience by letting us wait.
Please keep this topic aimed at helping OP's "problem" (to make him go through it better, or in the case of the atheists, to leave the Church), it is not a place to become a full scale bullshit of a religious war between the ideas of atheists and those who believe in a "God" of any kind...
i.e. this isn't the thread to mock other races. just help the OP get through his problem, anything else WILL lead to the thread discussion becoming uncivilized and will become a flamewar. (that's what always happens...)
On June 22 2011 08:02 MaxField wrote: Have you tried to pray and ask if there is a god? James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
The lord will answer you if you ask with faith.
Actually the most likely outcome is that nothing is going to happen, but a Christian will probably attribute silence and nothingness to a supernatural feeling described along the lines of God touched my heart in that moment and I realised that although He doesn't always answer in an audible way blah blah blah.
Reminds me of this:
Why is it that God doesn’t answer prayers?
It has been said that God always answers prayer. Sometimes He says "yes" sometimes he says "no" and sometimes He says "wait a while" [at statistically the same rate as praying to the moon or your favourite stuffed toy]. Sometimes God will answer a prayer in a different way than we have first anticipated [hey, that’s exactly what happens sometimes when I beg to my stuffed toy]. The fact is, many of us pray for things that God knows would only hinder our walk with Him [like say, a cure for cancer] so for our own good He withholds them from us. When we are first born into God’s kingdom we generally get our prayers answered immediately [there’s thousands of studies which prove this] but as we grow God teaches us patience by letting us wait.
There is no reason to mock my post. I am a christian and i have had my prayers answered many times, and if he is doubting, then i believe this is a possible solution to his problem. It is obvious that you do not believe in what i do, but making fun of them adds nothing to this thread.
Not mocking, but stating fact. In order to not derail the thread (although what we are discussing is highly relevant), I have put the example in the spoilers.
Does God answer prayers? According to believers, the answer is certainly yes.
For example, at any Christian bookstore you can find hundreds of books about the power of prayer. On the Internet you can find thousands of testimonials to the many ways that God works in our lives today. Even large city newspapers and national magazines run stories about answered prayers. God seems to be interacting with our world and answering millions of prayers on planet Earth every day.
God's power often can be quite dramatic. Take, for example, this story from Marilyn Hickey Ministries:
Prayer is a communication system we have available to fellowship with our heavenly Father and which activates His promises in our lives. No one can beat this system. It's quick. It's efficient. And it's available to you right now! Prayer reaches our heavenly Father instantly. Years ago my mother's doctors found a tumor in her brain. When I heard the news, I was out of town so I could not lay my hands on her. That night as fear swept over me, the Lord quickened Psalms 107:20 to my spirit: "He sent his word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions." I sent God's Word long distance to my mother's brain. When she was X-rayed again by her doctors, there was no evidence that any tumor had ever existed! Hallelujah! Our prayers are swifter than any medical technique. Only born again believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord can have a relationship with the Father and prayer is the communication method you must use to develop that relationship. [ref]
Stories like these can be easily found all over the Web.
How Prayer Works
For believers, it is obvious why so many prayers are answered. In the Bible, Jesus promises many times that he will answer our prayers. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Ask and you will receive. What could be simpler than that?
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Since a mustard seed is a tiny inanimate object about the size of a grain of salt, it is easy to imagine that the faith of a mustard seed is fairly small. So, paraphrasing, what Jesus is saying is that if you have the tiniest bit of faith, you can move mountains.
Jesus says something similar in Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Jesus is actually in our midst and God answers our prayers.
The miracle of Jeanna Giese
There are so many examples of the power of prayer, but one in particular deserves special consideration because it is so well documented. In December of 2004 a girl named Jeanna Giese survived a bite from a rabid bat through prayer. Hundreds of newspapers (including the Raleigh News and Observer in my home town) ran stories about the miracle of her recovery with headlines such as "Rabies girl in miracle recovery." In Raleigh, the headline was "Web weaves global prayer circle - Petitions circle the world as girl beats rare case of rabies." [Source: by Sharon Roznik, Raleigh News and Observer, December 17, 2004]
The summary of the story goes like this. Jeanna was in a church service in Wisconsin when a brown bat fell into the aisle. She picked the bat up and carried it outside. No one gave it a second thought.
A month later it was obvious that something was wrong. Soon Jeanna had a full case of rabies. No human has ever survived this disease without being vaccinated. Up until 2004, full-blown rabies had been 100% fatal.
According to the article, a global prayer circle helped Jeanna survive. Once she got sick, Jeanna's father called friends and asked them to pray for Jeanna. People around the world heard about her story through the press and by word of mouth. They prayed. They sent emails. They passed the word along. Millions of people heard about Jeanna's plight and they said prayers for her.
And the prayer circle worked. Through the power of God, Jeanna recovered. Jeanna was the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine.
Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them.
This is amazing stuff. The dictionary defines a miracle as "An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God." [ref] So we must ask a fundamental question: Did an all-loving, all-powerful God hear the prayers from Jeanna's worldwide prayer circle and then reach down from heaven to help Jeanna? Did God actually interact with Jeanna's body, making the impossible happen and curing her case of rabies through a divine miracle?
Or did something else happen?
We can actually answer this question with a simple experiment....
A simple experiment
For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout veteran of the Iraqi war, or a person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident.
Now create a prayer circle like the one created for Jeanna Giese. The job of this prayer circle is simple: pray to God to restore the amputated legs of this deserving person. I do not mean to pray for a team of renowned surgeons to somehow graft the legs of a cadaver onto the soldier, nor for a team of renowned scientists to craft mechanical legs for him. Pray that God spontaneously and miraculously restores the soldier's legs overnight, in the same way that God spontaneously and miraculously cured Jeanna Giese and Marilyn Hickey's mother.
If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch.
What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.
And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.
No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.
Isn't that odd? The situation becomes even more peculiar when you look at who God is. According to the Standard Model of God:
God is all-powerful. Therefore, God can do anything, and regenerating a leg is trivial.
God is perfect, and he created the Bible, which is his perfect book. In the Bible, Jesus makes very specific statements about the power of prayer. Since Jesus is God, and God and the Bible are perfect, those statements should be true and accurate.
God is all-knowing and all-loving. He certainly knows about the plight of the amputee, and he loves this amputee very much.
God is ready and willing to answer your prayers no matter how big or small. All that you have to do is believe. He says it in multiple places in the Bible. Surely, with millions of people in the prayer circle, at least one of them will believe and the prayer will be answered.
God has no reason to discriminate against amputees. If he is answering millions of other prayers like Jeanna's every day, God should be answering the prayers of amputees too.
Nonetheless, the amputated legs are not going to regenerate.
What are we seeing here? It is not that God sometimes answers the prayers of amputees, and sometimes does not. Instead, in this situation there is a very clear line. God never answers the prayers of amputees. It would appear, to an unbiased observer, that God is singling out amputees and purposefully ignoring them.
Understanding amputees
You can see that the amputee experiment reframes our conversation. No longer are we talking about "religion" or "faith". What we are talking about here is more fundamental.
At the beginning of the chapter we highlighted a number of promises that Jesus makes about prayer in the Bible. Summarizing, here is what Jesus promised:
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]
If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]
Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]
Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]
Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]
The question, therefore, is simple: Are Jesus' statements in the Bible true or false?
For example, in John 3:16 Jesus says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." People take that at face value: if you believe in Jesus, you will have eternal life. So when Jesus says, "Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," isn't it the same thing? Can't we take that statement at face value as well?
By looking at amputees, we can see that something is wrong. Jesus is not telling the truth. God never answers prayers to spontaneously restore lost limbs, despite Jesus' statements in the Bible. Accepting this piece of factual information, rather than denying it, is the first step in understanding something extremely important about how prayer really works.
Even if you take a liberal rather than literal stance on the Bible, this feels strange, doesn't it? You may not literally believe that "nothing will be impossible for you" nor that "faith can move mountains," but I think we can agree that there is something very odd about the way that God treats amputees. No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing happens when we pray for amputated limbs. God never regenerates lost limbs through prayer, even though Christians believe that God is answering millions of other prayers on earth every day.
Does God answer prayers? If so, then how do we explain this disconnection between God and amputees? What should we do with the piece of empirical data that amputees represent? We need to somehow explain why God would answer millions of prayers on earth, yet completely ignore prayers for amputated limbs. Let's examine the possible explanations one by one.
Key Point No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.
Rationalization #1
Here is an explanation that you might have heard or used before:
The reason God cures thousands of cancers, infections, etc. each day but never intervenes with amputees is because it is not God's will to do that. It is not part of God's plan.
This explanation seems a little odd. Amputees really do seem to be getting the short end of God's plan if this is the case. If God answers prayers as promised in the Bible, and if God is performing all of the medical miracles that we read about in inspirational literature, then God should also be restoring amputated limbs. Why would God help cancer victims (e.g. Marilyn Hickey's mother) and people bitten by rabid bats (e.g. Jeanna Giese), but discriminate against amputees like this? (See Understanding God's Plan for an in-depth look at how "God's Plan" works).
Keep in mind what Jesus promised:
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]
If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]
Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]
Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]
Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]
There is no indication from Jesus that amputees will be ignored when they pray for medical help. The fact is, all five of these statements are completely false in the case of amputees.
The five quotes in the previous paragraph are all simple, straightforward statements. Doesn't "nothing will be impossible for you" mean "nothing will be impossible for you"? Jesus is God, and as an all-knowing being God knows how humans interpret sentences. If Jesus did not mean "nothing will be impossible for you," it seems like Jesus would have said something else. He also would not repeat that sentiment so many times. And Jesus is supposedly answering millions of prayers each day, so prayer-answering seems to be his intent (See this short video for a more in-depth discussion).
Rationalization #2
In a similar vein, many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to every amputee is always "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. Jesus says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." He does not say, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it, unless you are praying about an amputated limb, in which case I will always reject your prayer." Jesus also says, "Nothing will be impossible to you," and regenerating a limb should therefore be possible. The fact that God refuses to answer every prayer to regenerate a lost limb seems strange, doesn't it?
This short video offers a perspective on the "no" response to prayers.
To understand how strange it seems, compare God's treatment of amputees to the concept of God described in this article.
Rationalization #3
Here is another explanation that you might have heard: "God needs to remain hidden -- restoring an amputated limb would be too obvious." We will discuss this idea in more detail in later chapters, but let's touch on it here. Does God need to remain hidden?
That does not seem to be the case. In general, God seems to have no problem doing things that are obvious. Think about the Bible. Writing the Bible and having billions of copies published all over the world is obvious. So is parting the Red Sea. So is carving the Ten Commandments on stone tables. So is sending your son to earth and having him perform dozens of recorded miracles. And so on. It makes no sense for a God in hiding to incarnate himself, or to do these other obvious things. Why send your son to earth, and then write a book that talks all about his exploits, if you are trying to hide?
In the same way, any medical miracle that God performs today is obvious. The removal of a cancerous tumor is obvious because it is measurable. One month the tumor is visible to everyone on the X-ray, and the next month it is not. If God eliminated the tumor, then it is openly obvious to everyone who sees the X-ray. There is nothing "hidden" about removing a tumor. So, why not regenerate a leg in an equally open way? If God intervenes with cancer patients to remove cancerous tumors in response to prayers, then why wouldn't God also intervene with amputees to regenerate lost limbs?
Key Point If God intervenes with cancer patients to remove cancerous tumors, then God should also intervene with amputees to regenerate lost limbs. Another example is seen in Jeanne's rabies case discussed earlier in the chapter. Tens of millions of people are aware of the Jeanna's rabies miracle. Personally, I read about it in a big article in my morning newspaper. That is pretty obvious. What is hidden about her recovery?
Why, then, does God ignore the prayers of amputees? (see Chapter 19 for a complete discussion of the "hidden God" theory)
Rationalization #4
Some people might say, "Everyone's life serves God in different ways. Perhaps God uses amputees to teach us something. God must have a higher purpose for amputees." That may be the case -- God may be trying to send a message. But, again, it seems odd that he would single out this one group of people to handle the delivery. To quote Marilyn Hickey once again:
No matter what has happened in your past, no matter what is happening in your present, seek out your heavenly Father in prayer as often as you can. Take my word for it -- He loves you and wants to answer your prayers. [ref]
You see this logic all the time in inspirational literature and hear it every Sunday at thousands of churches: "God loves you! God hears your prayers and will answer them for you!" See this article for an example. Yet, for some reason, miracles never happen when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. It does not seem to make sense that amputees would be cut off from the blessings that Jesus promises in the Bible. And it also does not mesh with all of the prayers that Jesus seems to be answering for other people.
Rationalization #5
Some people ascribe the problems that amputees face to free will. They will say, "Well, if you go into a war zone and get your legs blown off, that is your own free will. God gives us free will. You made a free choice to be a soldier. It is not God's fault, and therefore he has no obligation to repair the damage." This logic is fascinating. What about all the people who are born with missing limbs, or the people who lose limbs to diseases through no fault or choice of their own? How are these people any different from cancer victims, who, supposedly, are constantly being healed by God?
We know that God ignores all amputees, regardless of the cause of the missing limb. Why doesn't God heal thalidomide babies, who are by definition completely innocent? Or the innocent children who lose their limbs in mine fields? Why would God heal millions of other diseases, but completely ignore any disease that results in a lost or missing limb?
Rationalization #6
Some believers say, "God does help amputees - he inspires scientists and engineers to create artificial limbs for them!" This logic is interesting, especially if we look at other examples. Take the case of smallpox. Millions upon millions of people died of smallpox until the vaccine was invented in the twentieth century. If God is the one who inspired the scientists, why did God wait until the twentieth century to do it? Why would God want to be the source of the massive suffering that smallpox caused prior to the twentieth century? And why do we pay the scientists, given that their work is simply God's inspiration? (we will discuss the question of divine inspiration in more detail in Chapter 7)
Rationalization #7
Someone might say, "Thou shalt not test the Lord. It says so in the Bible." This is hard to swallow because every prayer is a test. Either God answers the prayer or he does not. There is no difference between praying for an amputee and praying for Jeanna Giese and her rabies.
Note also that many believers track their prayers with prayer journals. See, for example, prayer-journal.com. Why not pray to God to heal an amputee, and then track the results of the prayer in a prayer journal?
Rationalization #8
Some people might say something like, "Jesus never says when he will answer your prayers. Maybe your prayer will be answered in the afterlife." But that seems uncomfortable. Jesus is answering millions of prayers for everyone else in the here and now. Clearly that is what he means with all his verses in the Bible. Why single out amputees for treatment in the afterlife when Marilyn and Jeanna get their prayers answered almost instantaneously?
Rationalization #9
Someone might say, "God will answer your prayers, but not immediately. You must be patient." They will point to a situation like that found in Mark 6:47-51:
And when evening came, the boat was out on the sea, and he was alone on the land. And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out; for they all saw him, and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take heart, it is I; have no fear." And he got into the boat with them and the wind ceased.
A person might say, "you see, he came in the fourth watch (generally understood to be 3AM to 6AM), not in the first or second or third. You must be patient and wait for the Lord to answer your prayers." This is just as uncomfortable as the previous explanation. God does not answer the prayers of any amputee to restore lost limbs.
Rationalization #10
A believer might say, "You are taking the Bible literally." But how else are we supposed to take it? Jesus clearly says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." When Jesus says that, what does he mean? Presumably, Jesus means that if you ask for anything, he will do it. What else could he possibly mean?
Believers often respond with, "Look, Jesus was using poetic embellishment when he said, 'nothing will be impossible for you,' and 'faith can move mountains.'" Which leads to the following question: What prayers does God answer? It is the response to that question that is fascinating. Because the response inevitably is, "God is omnipotent, so God can do anything."
Which leads us right back to the question, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
Rationalization #11
Finally, there is this oft-used chestnut: "There is no way to understand the mysteries of our Lord. People have believed in Jesus for 2,000 years, and there must be a very good reason for it." This feels like a sad point in the conversation. On one side of the conversation is a person who is defending the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving creator of the universe. This person's position should be unassailable. Yet, if God exists, and answers prayers as described in the Bible, there is no explanation for what we see in the world around us. The Bible is silent in this case. God is silent. There is not a good, comfortable explanation for the situation faced by amputees except to say, "We cannot understand the mysteries of the Lord. We have no explanation for why God refuses to answer prayers to regenerate lost limbs."
Explaining the case of amputees
Just for a moment, I would ask you to consider the possibility of another explanation. If you believe in God, then this explanation will initially appear to be complete nonsense. However, it is interesting in light of the conversation we will be having in this book.
One explanation for the evidence that we see before us is this:
God exists, and God answers prayers, but for some reason God chooses to ignore the prayers of amputees. We don't have a good explanation for why God acts this way, and it does seem to contradict what Jesus teaches about prayer in the Bible, but clearly God has his divine reasons.
Now let's look at the situation with amputees from another point of view. This explanation is more straightforward:
God is imaginary.
Let's look at what happens when we consider this explanation and see how it stacks up.
Assume that God is imaginary. The beauty of this explanation is that it fits the facts perfectly. In the case of amputees, it is a valid way to explain the reality that we see in our world. The logic goes like this:
If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too.
The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes complete sense in light of the evidence we see in our world.
Key Point If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes sense in light of the evidence we see in our world. Interestingly, this explanation also happens to cover the case of Neva Rogers in Chapter 1. And Steve Homel's subdivision in Chapter 2. And Ranika in Chapter 4. If you assume that God is imaginary, then the paradox of God evaporates in all of these cases. Why did Ranika die? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save her. Why did Neva die? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save her. Why did Steve's house remain standing while 39 others burned to the ground? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save any of the houses (and Steve's house was a fluke). Why did 200,000 people die in the tsunami? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save them. And so on. It explains amputees too. The paradox of God vanishes completely.
In response to this proposal, a thoughtful person might say, "Just because God never answers the prayers of amputees, it does not mean that he does not answer other prayers. I agree with you that it is unfair to amputees, and I agree with you that it contradicts what Jesus teaches in the Bible, but God has his reasons. For some reason, it is not part of God's plan to help amputees by regenerating their lost limbs. There is no way to understand the mysteries of our Lord, but he does have his reasons and they will become clear to us when we die and go to heaven." That is one possible explanation, but words like "unfair" and "contradicts" feel, somehow, uncomfortable. They do not fit with our mental image of an all-loving and perfect God, nor with the words of Jesus in the Bible. Why would God have such a problem with amputees that he completely ignores their prayers to regenerate lost limbs, while at the same time he is answering all of these other prayers millions of times a day? When it comes to amputees, why would Jesus renege on his promises to answer prayers in the Bible?
You can see that what we have here is a paradox:
On the one hand we have an all-knowing, all-loving God who has made very clear and specific statements in his Bible about the power of prayer. We have billions of people who believe that their prayers are being answered. We have thousands of examples of the power of prayer published in inspirational literature. We have prominent doctors at the CDC declaring that God is reaching down onto earth and performing medical miracles. We have major newspapers and magazines reporting on the power of prayer and prayer circles.
On the other hand, we have a piece of explicit evidence that does not make any sense if God exists. No matter how many people pray, no matter how sincere they are and no matter how much they believe, God does not answer the prayers of amputees to regenerate their limbs.
There are two possible explanations for this paradox:
Many people believe that God answers millions of prayers every day, using his love and power to bless people all over the globe. They express their belief in articles like this, published in magazines read by millions of people. But they also believe that God ignores the prayers of amputees for a divine reason that is unknowable to human beings. In that case, the situation with amputees is a mystery.
Many other people believe the opposite. They believe that God is imaginary, and therefore he cannot answer prayers. In that case, the situation with amputees makes complete sense.
Who is right?
The thing about amputees is that the evidence is rock solid. This solidity is what makes this example so compelling.
A cascade of problems
It's not like I am revealing some hidden truth here. The funny thing about amputees is that this evidence is obvious to everyone. We have all seen that God ignores the prayers of amputees. This evidence has been plainly visible for centuries.
Amputees are not the only ones either. For example:
If someone severs their spinal cord in an accident, that person is paralyzed for life. No amount of prayer is going to help.
If someone is born with a congenital defect like a cleft palate, God will not repair it through prayer. Surgery is the only option.
A genetic disease like Down Syndrome is the same way -- no amount of prayer is going to fix the problem.
Or what about this. What if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:
Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Will anything happen? Of course not. If prayers like this worked, Christians would have prayed every disease on the planet into extinction centuries ago. But if God were to exist, why would he ignore such a worthy prayer? [We will discuss this particular question in much more detail in chapter 6.]
It is also easy to find corroborating evidence outside the medical arena. At the global level, we see the evidence every day in many different ways. For example, we all see the millions of children who die every year from the tragic effects of poverty. Unicef puts it this way:
Every year, more than 10 million children die totally preventable deaths. Some are directly caused by illness – pneumonia, diarrhoea, measles – and others are affected by indirect causes such as conflict and HIV/AIDS. Malnutrition, lack of safe water and inadequate sanitation are contributing factors to more than half of these deaths. [ref]
Jesus is supposed to love all the little children of the world: "Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight." So we can ask this straightforward question: If children are precious to Jesus, then why is he killing 10 million of them every year with abject poverty? That's 27,000 dead kids every day -- more than 1,000 dead children each hour. If Jesus answers prayers as he promises in the Bible, then why haven't the prayers of billions of people to end world hunger caused Jesus to solve the problem of global poverty? (We will discuss this situation in more detail in chapter 22.)
Key Point 27,000 children die every day for preventable reasons like malnutrition and unsafe drinking water. If Jesus answers prayers as he promises in the Bible, then why haven't the prayers of billions of people to end world hunger caused Jesus to solve the problem of global poverty? We all know that holes like these exist. It is easy to find them. The holes suggest that something very odd is going on.
Ambiguity and coincidence
The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into an extremely interesting aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This aspect of prayer has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.
Imagine that you pray for something -- It does not really matter what it is. Let's imagine that you have cancer, you pray to God to cure the cancer, and the cancer actually does go away. The interesting thing to recognize is that there is ambiguity in your cure. God might have miraculously cured the disease, as many people believe. But God might also be imaginary, and the chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured your cancer. Or your body might have cured the cancer itself. The human body does have a powerful immune system, and this immune system has the ability to eliminate cancer in many cases. When your tumor dissappeared, it might be a coincidence that you happened to pray. Drugs, an immune response or a combination of the two might have been the thing the cured you.
How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that worked the cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a non-ambiguous situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because there is no ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering the prayer or not.
That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.
When we pray to God to restore an amputated limb, there is only one way for the limb to regenerate. God must exist and God must answer prayers. What we find is that whenever we create a non-ambiguous situation like this and look at the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never answers prayers if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will approach this issue from several different angles in this book, but Chapters 6 and 7 are particularly important.
The fact that prayers are never answered when the possibility of coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we analyse God's responses to prayers using statistical tools, what we find is that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer. In other words, when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for explaining any situation, they are identical. For example, this article points out:
One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments. [ref]
It also says:
A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods.
No scientific study has ever found any evidence that prayer works.
There are two possible conclusions to draw from these statistical studies and the situation with amputees:
God somehow detects every non-ambiguous situation (like amputees) and every situation where a statistical study will be done and he "refuses" to answer prayers in those situations.
God is imaginary and does not answer prayers at all. In every case where it appears that God "answers" a prayer, it truly is nothing more than a coincidence.
One problem with the first explanation is that it contradicts what Jesus teaches about prayer in the Bible. Jesus says that he answers payers. He never says, "don't pray to me unless the situation you are praying about is ambiguous." Another problem with the first situation is that it is possible to analyse any prayer with statistics, meaning that God cannot answer any prayer.
In other words, we reach the same conclusion: God is imaginary.
Incredibly Interesting
Whether you are religious or not, you have to admit that what we see here is incredibly interesting. Despite the fact that billions of people around the world believe in God, in this chapter we have seen a credible piece of evidence that indicates that God is imaginary.
We also have many other pieces of evidence that indicate the same thing. Let's step back and look at several of them.
First of all, we have this fact: there is no scientific evidence indicating that God exists. We all know that. For example, God has never left behind any physical evidence that shows that he is real. None of Jesus' miracles left behind any physical evidence either. God has never taken over all the TV and radio stations and broadcast a message to mankind. There is the Bible, but as we will see in Section 2 the Bible has problems of its own. And so on. So let's agree that there is no empirical evidence showing that God exists:
If we had scientific proof of God's existence, we would talk about the "science of God" rather than "faith in God". If we had scientific proof of God's existence, the study of God would be a scientific endeavor rather than a theological one. If we had scientific proof of God's existence, all religious people would be aligning on the God that had been scientifically proven to exist. Etc.
Second, we have the fact that there is no statistical evidence that God answers prayers. No non-fradulent scientific study has found any evidence that prayer works. For example, if we have a prayer group pray for certain people in a hospital but not for others, the people who were prayed for don't get better any faster or live any longer. The prayers have zero statistical effect. We will discuss this in much more detail in Chapters 6 and 7.
Simply think about the world around you. First, if there were conclusive statistical evidence that God answers prayers, that would provide scientific evidence that God exists. Second, we can see that there are not two laws of probability -- one for Chistians who pray and one for everyone else. There is a single law of probability that applies equally to everyone. Prayers have zero effect in any statistical study.
Key Point There are not two laws of probability -- one for people who pray and one for everyone else. There is a single law of probability that applies equally to everyone. Prayers have zero effect in any statistical study. Third, we have quite a bit of daily evidence that also suggests that God is imaginary. For example, there is the paradox of Neva Rogers from Chapter 1. In this case Neva prays openly to God and then gets shot in the head four times. There is the paradox of Steve Homel's house, where Steve prays and his house is saved. Unfortunately, the 39 other houses on his street are cursed and burn to the ground. That 97.5% failure rate for prayer makes it feel like the survival of Steve's house is pure coincidence rather than a miracle. We see paradoxes like that constantly, and they all point to the fact that God is imaginary.
Fourth, we have the fact that all of the gods of the past truly were imaginary. We all know with certainty that the Egyptian gods, the Roman gods and the Aztec gods were completely fictitious. Otherwise we would not have started to worship Jesus. We would be worshiping Ra or Zeus rather than Jesus if Ra or Zeus were real.
Now we can start adding pieces of new evidence showing us that God does not exist. For example, we have the case of amputees as described in this chapter. If God is real, it is apparent that there is something very odd about amputees. God is supposedly answering millions of prayers on earth every day, but he completely ignores amputated limbs and refuses to restore them. That makes no sense according to the Standard Model of God and Jesus' statements in the Bible. God's treatment of amputees is inexplicable if God exists, but makes a lot of sense if God is imaginary.
We have all of this evidence to show that God is imaginary. If we were in a court of law looking at this question, the judge would quickly rule that God is imaginary. There is no concrete evidence that God is real and lots of evidence that he is imaginary.
If you are a thoughtful, curious person, the case of amputees really makes you wonder: Is God real or is he imaginary?
You're mocking because you're insinuating that how one interprets an answers of their prayers or their belief of an answer is nothing but a fabrication of their own desire.
this whole discussion is out of the scope of this topic. -_-
the topic isn't about "Does God answer prayers" it's about someone losing his faith and doesn't know what to do about it, and is asking TL.net about what to do, NOT about "HEY HEY THIS WHOLE THING IS BULLSHIT HERE, SEE? SEEEEEE?"
Take that out into pms if you must, it really doesn't belong here, please focus on the OP's problem, that's it, kthanks.
God(s) probably aren't real. I would go with the, "Live your life" part.
I was never religious despite growing up in a Southern Baptist household. It just made me nervous when all of the adults went to a strange building and prayed to an invisible guy and I refused to go. Point being I cannot understand what you are going through, so I'll just say god(s) probably aren't real. If they are, nobody has been able to demonstrate it.
On June 22 2011 09:25 Torte de Lini wrote: You're mocking because you're insinuating that how one interprets an answers of their prayers or their belief of an answer is nothing but a fabrication of their own desire.
Should just avoid the whole subject though :x
The only interpretation that should be taken is an objective interpretation, and if the way one interprets their prayers is a fabrication of their own desire then it ought to be treated as such.
This should not be taken to PMs because someone clearly responded to the OP by suggesting prayer is the answer to the troubles of their faith. I am saying no that is in fact not a solution, and that instead if the OP wishes to investigate further a better and more objective source of information that does not rely on imagination is by, for example, reading books critical of their faith in order to get both sides of the story. Praying will not help. If it does, its sole benefit may be for the OP to create an imaginary character who responds to his 'prayers', but these responses are entirely superstitious and fabricated in his own mind.
To take an example - an idea that is similar to praying - speaking in tongues. If you told someone to speak in tongues, unless they had seen other Christians do it at Church, it is unlikely they even know what the heck to expect or how to speak in tongues the way many Pentecostal Churches do. The same applies for prayer. Unless you've been taught how to pray, and seen how your parents or pastors pray, then you would have no idea what to do. Secondly, unless you've been told by your parents, pastor or friends what to expect when praying, then you would have no idea what kind of responses God would give (unless you were schizophrenic and could actually hear voices in your head). Therefore from an objective conclusion, to suggest prayer as a solution to the OP's concerns about losing faith is misleading and just because it offends you doesn't mean it's immune to criticism.
Edit: Changed spelling error and want to add an example. If someone you knew was suffering from an illness, you would suggest they go see the doctor. You would not suggest they pray. In fact, praying is unnecessary. Likewise I am suggesting to the OP - if you have a problem with your faith, educate yourself about the answers. Don't pray to something completely superstitious. Many Christians will say medical visits go hand in hand with praying, but this is a fallacy as the prayer part of that equation is completely unnecessary. Likewise for 'spiritual' correction, if the OP wishes to find the truth behind what he believes, then reading and education will help. Praying can be added, but is unnecessary. The only addition it brings may be emotional comfort, but such emotional comfort is completely unnecessary (someone who feels the need to pray is just like how someone with obsessive compulsive disorder may feel better about washing their hands 50 times a day, but this is unnecessary).
I say this with complete seriousness and without the intent to mock but rather with the intent to criticise harshly due to the fact that I hate things that are fake (especially when it is taught to children and affect their psychological health and development). I have a friend who is currently dying of a brain tumour and I asked his family if there was anything I could help with (e.g. Cooking frozen meals for them). They have told me they appreciate it but at this stage just need me to pray for them. I will not, despite the fact that it grieves me that a friend is dying, I know that praying for them will make zero difference and is unnecessary. Whatever happens will happen, the best I can do if I want the cancer to go away is study to become a scientist and hopefully find a cure one day. Likewise if the OP wishes for his doubts to go away, the best way he can go about seeking the truth is reading atheist resources. Praying will do nothing to help with his education on whether or not God is real, just as praying will do nothing to help my friend who is dying of cancer.
I have to agree with human centipede (eww) on these points. I see two problems with prayer cited as evidence. Of course, if one has complete faith in prayer and offers it as advice on the grounds of one's personal faith, there is nothing to say about that.
1. There are plenty of miraculous things that happen (miraculous defined as an unusual occurrence). Non-Christians have had great coincidences happen to them that have benefited them. The difference is that when this coincidence or good fortune happens to a believer, they will attribute it to God. When they pray and nothing occurs, they may conclude that God is testing them, or their faith is not great enough, or that they need to be patient. Thus there is no accountability to this sort of "experiment."
The only way this could be cited as experimental evidence is if you separated believers and non-believers and examined the percentage of "miracle cases" (it would be hard to do without a strong element of bias). I do not think that there would be a significant difference.
2. The feelings you may get as a result of prayer (serenity, the feeling of an answer through the silence, emotions) are purely internal and cannot be communicated to another. While these may have meaning to yourself, it is hard to use them to tell someone else what to believe. Feelings as evidence have always been a shaky thing. People in other religions/cultures that Christians would denounce also have strong and "spiritual" emotional experiences.
Mother Teresa struggled with prayer herself. And unlike many claimed Christians, I think she was quite honest with herself.
On June 22 2011 10:49 blankspace wrote: I have to agree with human centipede (eww) on these points. I see two problems with prayer cited as evidence. Of course, if one has complete faith in prayer and offers it as advice on the grounds of one's personal faith, there is nothing to say about that.
1. There are plenty of miraculous things that happen (miraculous defined as an unusual occurrence). Non-Christians have had great coincidences happen to them that have benefited them. The difference is that when this coincidence or good fortune happens to a believer, they will attribute it to God. When they pray and nothing occurs, they may conclude that God is testing them, or their faith is not great enough, or that they need to be patient. Thus there is no accountability to this sort of "experiment."
The only way this could be cited as experimental evidence is if you separated believers and non-believers and examined the percentage of "miracle cases" (it would be hard to do without a strong element of bias). I do not think that there would be a significant difference.
2. The feelings you may get as a result of prayer (serenity, the feeling of an answer through the silence, emotions) are purely internal and cannot be communicated to another. While these may have meaning to yourself, it is hard to use them to tell someone else what to believe. Feelings as evidence have always been a shaky thing. People in other religions/cultures that Christians would denounce also have strong and "spiritual" emotional experiences.
Mother Teresa struggled with prayer herself. And unlike many claimed Christians, I think she was quite honest with herself.
which is the reason why it's hard to communicate about this subject, and is pointless to argue about it with an atheist because there isn't any common ground you can talk about. And thus this argument will eventually (or at least has a very very high probability to) escalate into a pointless forum war, when all the poster that introduced "prayer" into this was to have another option for the OP to use (if he/she wants). I don't think TL.net (or any site or place for that matter) is a place or platform to continue talking about this subject so fragile that does have a high potential to become a flamewar. Thus I'm just saying that this argument/subject be just dropped and refocus ourselves (the posters) to help the OP get through this period of time (either to "get back" his faith, or in the case of atheists, to persuade him/her to their thought)
This is not the topic for Christians and atheists to battle over what content is fake or not, that is what each poster has to (internally) decide for themselves. TL.net is not the place to battle it out or consider which thing is fake or not.
During my childhood in Brasil, I used to go to church every Sunday and participated in many Church events. I don't know the time but someday I realized that the only reason I went to church was because my parents asked me to (my mum is an atheist and she later told me when I was older that it was for me to understand her dislike of the church). After that realization, I began to follow the ideals of one of my best friends. That is to find truth not through faith or emotions but through observations and testing. Ever since then I have been agnostic and have learned to be skeptical of everything I learn (including science and what we learn in school) until I can prove it by reading multiple sources and see its physical applications.
On June 21 2011 18:11 Kerotan wrote: I feel like I was in a very similar position, when I read this line: "I really want to believe in God" it bought it home. I really wanted to believe because I was terrified of death, I had the same questions as you and it all seemed increasingly like a farce, yet I still believed because I needed a security blanket. I don't want to be too preachy, but I'm going to close with this: You can be a good person and not believe in god.
Yeah this is exactly how I feel. The reason I want to believe is because A) I am scared of death and I want to believe there is life after death and B) it feels to me that life is almost pointless (in a way) without Christianity. We're basically no different from any other animal; we're born, we reproduce, we die. I want to believe there is something else in our lives that makes us different.
One way I managed to get rid of the fear of death (every animal is born with it, no one really wants to die) was to change my meaning of death. For me death is not being existent anymore, this means that we were "dead" before (before we were born) and it brings comfort to me and a slight curiosity in what we will be like after dying (in spiritual terms)
On June 21 2011 18:11 Kerotan wrote: I feel like I was in a very similar position, when I read this line: "I really want to believe in God" it bought it home. I really wanted to believe because I was terrified of death, I had the same questions as you and it all seemed increasingly like a farce, yet I still believed because I needed a security blanket. I don't want to be too preachy, but I'm going to close with this: You can be a good person and not believe in god.
Yeah this is exactly how I feel. The reason I want to believe is because A) I am scared of death and I want to believe there is life after death and B) it feels to me that life is almost pointless (in a way) without Christianity. We're basically no different from any other animal; we're born, we reproduce, we die. I want to believe there is something else in our lives that makes us different.
One way I managed to get rid of the fear of death (every animal is born with it, no one really wants to die) was to change my meaning of death. For me death is not being existent anymore, this means that we were "dead" before (before we were born) and it brings comfort to me and a slight curiosity in what we will be like after dying (in spiritual terms)
I managed to get rid of the fear of death by realizing that I can do so much good while living that my actions will positively impact the world even after I'm gone. Knowing this motivates me to keep trying to work to make that happen. I don't need religion to tell me that I'll go to heaven if I'm good while alive. I wanna be good while alive and even after I'm dead so I can have peace of mind during my life
I'm much more afraid of not being able to make significant positive changes in the world while alive. Than I am afraid of death itself. So must keep trying to get there!
On June 22 2011 10:49 blankspace wrote: I have to agree with human centipede (eww) on these points. I see two problems with prayer cited as evidence. Of course, if one has complete faith in prayer and offers it as advice on the grounds of one's personal faith, there is nothing to say about that.
1. There are plenty of miraculous things that happen (miraculous defined as an unusual occurrence). Non-Christians have had great coincidences happen to them that have benefited them. The difference is that when this coincidence or good fortune happens to a believer, they will attribute it to God. When they pray and nothing occurs, they may conclude that God is testing them, or their faith is not great enough, or that they need to be patient. Thus there is no accountability to this sort of "experiment."
The only way this could be cited as experimental evidence is if you separated believers and non-believers and examined the percentage of "miracle cases" (it would be hard to do without a strong element of bias). I do not think that there would be a significant difference.
2. The feelings you may get as a result of prayer (serenity, the feeling of an answer through the silence, emotions) are purely internal and cannot be communicated to another. While these may have meaning to yourself, it is hard to use them to tell someone else what to believe. Feelings as evidence have always been a shaky thing. People in other religions/cultures that Christians would denounce also have strong and "spiritual" emotional experiences.
Mother Teresa struggled with prayer herself. And unlike many claimed Christians, I think she was quite honest with herself.
which is the reason why it's hard to communicate about this subject, and is pointless to argue about it with an atheist because there isn't any common ground you can talk about. And thus this argument will eventually (or at least has a very very high probability to) escalate into a pointless forum war, when all the poster that introduced "prayer" into this was to have another option for the OP to use (if he/she wants). I don't think TL.net (or any site or place for that matter) is a place or platform to continue talking about this subject so fragile that does have a high potential to become a flamewar. Thus I'm just saying that this argument/subject be just dropped and refocus ourselves (the posters) to help the OP get through this period of time (either to "get back" his faith, or in the case of atheists, to persuade him/her to their thought)
This is not the topic for Christians and atheists to battle over what content is fake or not, that is what each poster has to (internally) decide for themselves. TL.net is not the place to battle it out or consider which thing is fake or not.
It's not pointless to argue about because there isn't any common ground. It's pointless to argue about because certain people are deluded about the subject. I spent several years as a Christian so there is common ground, because for those years I likewise allowed myself to believe in the supernatural that doesn't exist. You say TL.net is not the place to battle it out - I would argue it is. The one thing most Christians tend to be against is 'moral relativism' because they believe in 'absolute truth' - and in many Churches you attend (presumably including the OP's) you're either in the boat or not. Jesus likewise told His followers that you are either with Him or against Him.
Therefore it is important for the OP to have a full understanding of whether or not what he believes is true or not. You may wish to brush away the subject by pretending that either side could be correct depending on one's experiences, but that is like admitting for you, as a Christian, that someone who is a Muslim and rejects Christ and sees Him as a prophet has just the equal amount of chance of going to Heaven as a Christian. If that is the case, then I doubt you would not argue the point if it was widely accepted considering under general common Christian theology unless the Muslim accepts Christ as His Savior he is going to Hell. Therefore it is important for the OP to reach the conclusion that prayer either works or doesn't work.
He doesn't have to reach this conclusion overnight, but to brush it aside as unless you are a Christian you aren't going to believe in it is a cheap way out. Prayer is not a matter of whether or not you personally believe it works or not, but whether or not it works. If you, as a Christian, fully believe that prayer works, then you would have no issue with debating it because truth is objective, not subjective.
If, therefore, you truly believe that prayer works, then you wouldn't agree with the proposition that it is something for each person to internally decide for themselves - because if that was the case then it may be real or it may not be depending on the person. This is not a good position for the OP to be able to determine whether or not Christianity is real - because it's pretty much saying whether or not Christianity is real depends on whether or not you talk to a Christian who personally believes in it or an atheist. That's not correct. Whether or not Christianity is real depends on whether or not it is real, and in order to find this out objectively you find out whether the things Christians believe are real or not. Therefore to question about the reality of prayer is fully relevant and ought to be discussed in this thread.
You may feel like a conclusion cannot be reached but I would argue that with more and more atheist knowledge in the world and as that knowledge grows the deluded belief in the superstitious will one day decrease, just like how many (especially younger) Christians are nowadays accepting evolution or homosexuality when only a generation ago you would never hear about a Christian who denies Creationism in six days and the welcoming of homosexuals in Church.
Take another example, back in our grandparents' generation if you kissed someone you would probably end up marrying them - yet nowadays younger Christians date around before marriage and in some instances have sex before marriage - and this line will keep moving. Likewise it is my prediction that in the not too distant future many Christians will not see prayer as a valid or useful way of expressing their faith and remove it from their practices altogether, along with other practices such as the taking of communion, the attendance of Church, and the speaking of tongues.
Its a phase that many people go through. I myself went through it multiple times but in the end it comes up to you. WHAT do you believe. I recommend talking to people close to you non-christians and christians.
Let me give another example - back in the middle ages there were no judge and jury trials - but rather the 'culprit' would be given hot coals to eat. If he survived it, he would be declared innocent - but if he burned, it was taken to mean that God considered this person guilty and therefore his death was justified.
This is no longer the practice when criminals are caught. Why? Because it is ridiculous and we can scientifically see that the success rate of a criminal surviving eating hot coals is 0%.
Likewise with prayer - as with the piece I put in the spoilers above - it can be statistically and scientifically proven that any outcome with or without prayer is exactly the same. There is no evidence that God listens to or answers prayers - only deluded/schizophrenic people who claim so.
And finally - I found these sort of debates very helpful when I was in my phase of transitioning between Christianity and atheism. The longer we prolong "let's agree to disagree" by claiming that issues such as whether or not prayer is real should be left to each person to decide, the longer ignorance on the matter prevails. Under absolute truth (as opposed to moral relativism), only one answer can be correct. Having these debates may not be useful to you, whether it's because you are too stubborn to accept that Christianity is wrong, or whether you just can't be assed defending the proposition that prayer works and helps people, but it may be beneficial for those reading our debate, such as myself when I was younger and surfing Christian apologetics forums and the debates between Christians and atheists.
Also please note the mod has requested for this discussion to be civil - unlike the Miss USA thread debates on such matters is not banned but the only requirement is that we debate without flaming. You are presuming that this will turn into a flame-war, whereas all I see is that you are unwilling to debate the issue because you believe a consensus cannot be reached. To me that is a cop-out because it's like saying we might as well not debate whether or not eating hot coals is a valid way of convicting criminals because depending on who you talk to it may be a good way of solving crime or not.
It is entirely relevant to the OP's doubting of his faith whether or not prayer is real. If it is, then he should continue on with his faith and focus on spreading the word so that people don't go to Hell because if prayer is real God is real. If it is not real, then he can be comfortable about his disbelief.
I don't think he was asking for a judgement on prayer. It helps some, and it doesn't help others. Are you going to belittle ones beliefs for your own reasoning. He asked a simple question of faith and the Bible. he did not ask for one to come in here and tell him he is too stubborn to accept christainity is wrong. Not flaming, Just trying to make a point that one can dicuss op wihout resorting to wether or not this or that is real, or is christainity false. Lets dicuss the op and lets not have it get into a big x vs y thread
anyways back on topic.
When I left the catholic church. I had to relook at the bible how I see it. Look at the bible as you see it, take it however you believe it to be.
for myself when I joined the Baha'i faith I had to take a look at the bible to really understand where I am going in my faith and how I am apart of this.
I believe many of the stories are fake, but provide a moral groundwork for the time. People could percieve that God flooded the earth. I think it taught the crucial lesson of paitence, and of respect toward other creatures.
I urge you to not just base your faith in God just on Christainity. But look to Other faiths to see where you belong. You may find that your spiritual needs can be fufilled elsewhere.
It took me many years to find the faith that fit me. The faith I felt that suited my needs and I have never been happier. I can't believe now how people could go their lives without faith, I guess its made me that way.
Just don't think just because right now you don't have the perfect understanding of the bible, its not right. nobody has the perfect understanding of the bible.
If you believe in God but not the bible. Then you believe in God. The bible is not revelent to any dicussion to God anyways. The words fo God can be found anywhere. In the trees, in the forest, in the ocean.
I'm an athiest personally, but there are some alternatives to 'believe' and 'don't believe' that people here keep telling you.
Also, before I get into this, I think you guys should really give human centipede some credit, even if you disagree with him. He has been nothing if not polite. You'll notice how he capitalizes Him when he's talking about Jesus? That's an act of extreme respect from an athiest, although it might not seem like it. Capitalizing the pronouns (from my perspective anyway) is entirely unneccessary since I don't believe Jesus was any more special than, say, Ghandi, and we don't capitalize Ghandi's pronouns. So even if you disagree with HC, give him some credit for showing you some respect. I understand that this discussion is taking place furtively at the point of a gun (mods = gods) but that doesn't mean you can't show him a little respect.
Regarding the OP: Personally, I made the leap from being a believer to being an athiest when I was in highschool. Specifically I believe it was a discussion on transubstantiation that was my final straw (I'd been agnostic for awhile anyway), but if it makes you happy I don't see any reason why you shouldn't believe for a while longer. It is just very clear that something about the particular denomination you belong to is rubbing you the wrong way. If you still want to believe you should feel free to try other denominations, or even other religions. There are a great deal of protestant perspectives on this issue that manage to sidestep much of the more ridiculous things in the bible by explaining them as parables and/or 'thinks to test your faith'.
Having faith is hard. If you survive this, your faith will be very strong. Thats their side of the story. My question for you is, at what cost?
In the interest of furthering my own perspective, I'd advise you to try examining what it is specifically that makes you want to believe. Is it because you've always believed, and you don't know how to not do it? Is it because you are afraid of going to hell, or of disappointing your friends and family? Or is it because God wants you to believe, and he's manipulating your emotional/chemical balances to make it more difficult for you to change your mind?
All that you really need to do is ask yourself why you're feeling this way.
Doubt isn't necessarily a bad thing, not everyone is able to lie to themselves in order to live the way that they were brought up to believe is "the right way".
On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote: I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew?
I celebrate and accept both religions as my own.
Why bother? If you're one of the chosen you don't need to be Catholic.
huh?
You're already covered by the original Covenants, there's no need for you to pursue the New Covenant.
You can if you want to, don't get me wrong, but it seems like a lot of work.
I can't really say about how you feel. I've never felt this way simply because I keep my Roman Catholic faith separate from my real-world conduct in a lot of ways. They are two different aspects of me and I live them both, admittedly sometimes one more than the other.
There's one thing that always bugged me in high school religion class (I went to Catholic schools because the public school system is crap), which is that they teach that the Bible can be lenient in its truth. I think this steers more people away than it helps. I personally think that many of the stories could be true because if it's God than he can make all kinds of awesome stuff happen. Take for example the Red Sea crossing:
The Egyptians pursued the Israelites into the gap in the Red Sea created by Moses, and once all the Israelites were out the water came crashing down and drowned the Egyptians. As a result Ramses gave up pursuit.
This second version is fucking awesome, and I really believe it happened. Same goes for the plagues. How else can you shake up a Pharaoh who believes he is a divine being but by pwning him with the works of your own god?
I mean, people are free to believe what they want to believe, but these beliefs solidify my faith, not detract from it. I will never doubt my belief in God, even if I sin a lot (and I do).
On June 22 2011 21:24 tnkted wrote: Also, before I get into this, I think you guys should really give human centipede some credit, even if you disagree with him. He has been nothing if not polite. You'll notice how he capitalizes Him when he's talking about Jesus? That's an act of extreme respect from an athiest, although it might not seem like it. Capitalizing the pronouns (from my perspective anyway) is entirely unneccessary since I don't believe Jesus was any more special than, say, Ghandi, and we don't capitalize Ghandi's pronouns. So even if you disagree with HC, give him some credit for showing you some respect. I understand that this discussion is taking place furtively at the point of a gun (mods = gods) but that doesn't mean you can't show him a little respect.
On June 22 2011 14:01 Human Centipede wrote: And finally - I found these sort of debates very helpful when I was in my phase of transitioning between Christianity and atheism. The longer we prolong "let's agree to disagree" by claiming that issues such as whether or not prayer is real should be left to each person to decide, the longer ignorance on the matter prevails. Under absolute truth (as opposed to moral relativism), only one answer can be correct. Having these debates may not be useful to you, whether it's because you are too stubborn to accept that Christianity is wrong, or whether you just can't be assed defending the proposition that prayer works and helps people, but it may be beneficial for those reading our debate, such as myself when I was younger and surfing Christian apologetics forums and the debates between Christians and atheists.
Talk with your priest, and go to confession. Letting someone else know (not TL to be honest), is a better way to get some advice when it comes to your faith. Coming to realize that God might not exist isn't a sin, but your problems are genuine and I'm sure a priest will give you some advice in the matter.
Well I'm a person who was raised Catholic, turned Atheist, and back to Christian again.
As far as God existing... How can something come from nothing? There had to be a beginning to material existence right? There had to be something that existed before time or space ever did, otherwise, who or what started it?
Anything that has a beginning needs a cause. The Universe has a beginning. Therefore, the universe has a cause. On an atheist's view, we exist for no ULTIMATE point or purpose as far as the universe is concerned. That does not fit with how the universe was created.
As for Christianity, the best way to defend belief in that is through evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as covered in the 4 Gospels, matthew, mark, luke, john.
Now, I'm pretty sure you'll say that for one, the Gospels aren't reliable documents, and even if there was a man named Jesus, it doesn't mean that he is God.
Here is my case for the legitimacy and accuracy of the Gospels (matthew, mark, luke, john)
1. The Gospels provide internal evidence that the writers themselves were either eyewitnesses of the events or interviewers of eyewitnesses.
2.The Gospels are full of irrelevant details that have no needed meaning for the story of Jesus. There are places all over where it says things like "early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark"... now if these books were written just as stories, and not eyewitness accounts, why would they include this type of information?
3. The Gospels are full of self-destructive details. Such as when they all write that the empty tomb was first discovered by a woman. In that time, a woman was not considered a credible source... So if they were making this up, and they wanted their information to be credible, why would they all make the first eyewitness to the empty tomb a woman?
4. Mostly, the Gospels give the same basic account of Jesus' life. If they were written individually, where did the consistency come from? However, they also contain minor discrepancies, displaying evidence that they were not all written from the same original writing.
5. The Gospels just are not written in a literary format that would be considered as a legendary writing format. Writers in this day did not often write fiction in this way. It was not until much later that that particular writing style was invented.
6. What motives would these writers have for making up stories about Jesus? They died painful deaths for what they wrote and believed in. Why would they die for a lie?
7.There are many archaeological findings to corroborate what the Gospels have written. There have been no archaeological findings that contradict conclusively what the Gospels have written.
So you see, it looks to me like the Gospels are reliable as historic documents. They record very clearly a man named Jesus, who claimed to be, and did acts to show that he was God.
Secondly, Jesus claimed to be God. The best way to provide evidence that he is God is to put out a case for the legitimacy of his resurrection. Because if it is true that Jesus rose from the dead, I think it is hard to argue that he is not who he says he was (God).
1. Jesus died by crucifixion. This is confirmed in all 4 Gospels, and also at many other points in the Bible.
2. Jesus' disciples believed that he rose and appeared to him. Again, confirmed by all 4 Gospels, the disciples saw the raised Jesus. Before the resurrection, they were very depressed and unhappy, but somehow, they became leaders of the largest faith movement in the world that still exists today. What prompted this change of heart?
3. Paul (aka Saul) becomes a Christian. In the book of acts, paul is one of Chrisianity's biggest prosecuters. He helped track down and stone many Christians. But after the sight of the resurrected Jesus, he became a strong believer. He actually wrote many of the books of the bible.
4.James (Jesus' half-brother) was a hardcore skeptic of Jesus before the resurrection. Think about it, if your brother told you that he was God, what would it take for you to believe him. I think him dying and then resurrecting and appearing to you would do the trick.
5. Jesus' tomb was empty. This is confirmed by the fact that the Jews claimed that the disciples stole the body. Why would they claim that if the tomb wasn't empty in the first place?
Next, what ground does anyone have for deeming anything right or wrong if there is no eternal, timeless, spaceless, all knowing standard to base it on? Without that standard, isn't right and wrong just subjective? And if that's the case then do you believe that something like child rape is only subjectively wrong rather than objectively wrong?
Lastly, I'll just share a bit about myself with you. I was raised catholic, but never really believed in God. When I was 15 I walked away from church. I deemed it something that was stupid and outdated, and filled with ignorant people. When I was 22 a girl I liked invited me to church. I hated the idea but I wanted to please her so I went. Since then it's been about 18 months. My life has changed drastically for the better, and i feel that I have gained a significant point and purpose to my life that is impossible without God. I am so much happier in my everyday life. You can try to argue cosmology, philosophy, evolution, whatever... but you can't argue with the evidence of a changed life.
Also, it's really impossible to argue with evolution as it's a fact.
I'm glad you found happiness in your life with religion, didn't work for me. I was christian till I was 18, planned on becoming a pastor for a lutheran church I attended for a long time.
And since I always felt comfortable with being Christian, I didn't challenge it. Eventually when I did choose to, It was terrifying. But I'm glad I did. I just couldn't continue to lie to my self anymore when everything wasn't adding up, I felt mentally insane cherry picking everything I liked from a book, yet ignoring all the awful things. I'm doing a lot better now.
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself.
You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here.
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP.
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself.
You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here.
He's pretty much right. Faith is just that: faith. If you can bring yourself to accept the word of God and believe it, you have your faith in Him. If you can't, you can't. And people across the spectrum of opinions about religion on a forum aren't going to help you retain or abandon your faith, only you can. Take some time to figure things out for yourself, because if you are or aren't believing in God because of what someone else says, it's not really your belief.
There's nothing wrong with asking God for help in prayer. I asked Him for help when I doubted my faith and He came. If you're genuine, I believe he'll answer you too.
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP.
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself.
You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here.
Imma quote from the Bible about this part
Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed."
John ch 20 verse 18
This is what faith is. Believing without physical proof (eyes/whatever), essentially.
Really look at your motivations for challenging your beliefs, are things in your life (ie peer pressure, loosing a loved one) just causing you to re-think or are they actually motivating or pushing you into choosing not to believe? Are you just believing becuase you want to?(this is not good by the way) Are you just fed up trying to live life as a Christian and actually you just want the easy way out?
You need to answer those questions first. I really dont advise in this delicate a mind state to read one piece of pro-atheist literature considering your vulnerable and then loose all faith, like a lot of young teen-agers brought up Christian do. If your going to read external literature to help you, make sure you read from both sides, ie both the god delusion and the dawkin delusion, read some of CS Lewis's stuff, john lennox's talks as well as sam harris's stuff, William Lane Craig's stuff as well as Carl Sagan ect. And set yourself a a mindset where you'll promise not to think/dwell on it too much until you've read both sides, so the same goes for pro-Christian stuff too, don't read one book and then decide your back on track. Just be vigilant and objective is basically what I'm saying, really examine whats what and make sure you make the right choice and that you really are approaching it with an open mind, and don't let external other factors sway you in any particular direction.
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP.
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself.
You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here.
He's pretty much right. Faith is just that: faith. If you can bring yourself to accept the word of God and believe it, you have your faith in Him. If you can't, you can't. And people across the spectrum of opinions about religion on a forum aren't going to help you retain or abandon your faith, only you can. Take some time to figure things out for yourself, because if you are or aren't believing in God because of what someone else says, it's not really your belief.
There's nothing wrong with asking God for help in prayer. I asked Him for help when I doubted my faith and He came. If you're genuine, I believe he'll answer you too.
Hey what do you mean when he answered your prayer? I have prayed many times but never "felt anything." What was it like having God answer your prayer?
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP.
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself.
You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here.
Yeah you're right. I guess I still say I have faith because I haven't fully rejected it yet. I'm still clinging to it despite all the doubts. I should probably talk to a pastor but I don't know anyone I would trust to talk to (I go to a Korean church and they don't speak English too well).
Edit: Actually, just as a general question to all the Christians (including the fundamentalist apologetic who believes the Earth was created in six days) - do you watch porn? If so, how do you reconcile it with your faith?
I hate to admit this, but yes I watch porn. Its not something I'm proud of, and it's not something I think God would tolerate. When I had more faith, I would always try to quit porn, but would eventually watch it again after weeks. I would always feel dirty after watching it. What worries me is now I'm kinda numb to it (could be because of weak/no faith).
Ok guys who say "faith without sight" (which I know very well, I grew up in the church)
Suppose you take the same person A who grew up in a Christian family and believes in something because he just "knows it." With the same type of personality, suppose A grew up in a buddhist family. Likely, he could have the same type of "faith without sight." I think the islamic suicide bombers (and I am not saying they are the same as most christians here) had extreme faith without sufficient "sight" to the point of throwing their lives away.
Yet the Christians would say that their "faith without sight" is correct. If Jesus says in the bible that those who believe without sight are blessed, and another religion says a similar thing, on what grounds do you have to claim that your intuition is better?
Churches and religions vary a lot on the people involved and other circumstances. I know from experience that Christianity can promote good deeds and moral behavior, it can support those who are sick and comfort people emotionally. If this is the case, why should one bother looking for validation outside of the inner "feelings, intuition, or just knowing it." Why care about experimental verification or logic?
Because those who place emotion over reason are easily swayed and abused by demagogues or madmen. For example, in cults, people will place complete faith in their leaders without good justification. This turns out badly for them, especially when they give away their money. Or all those people who thought the end of the world was coming and had faith in their pastor. In the end, they just got more screwed over.
Science has the advantage of being grounded in rigorous experiment. Of course science cannot prove or explain everything, it cannot even prove that science works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction). However, for some reason, scientific and mathematical theory, when correctly stated even in approximate forms (newton's laws vs relativity for example), have yielded powerful and consistent results. Although the mathematics of the greeks has been expanded on, it's power remains the same since it was conceived thousands of years ago.
The same cannot be said for religions, which die out, morph, and change drastically with the times. Moreover, they lack the experimental consistency of science. If a religious man, by uttering words, could change water into wine or levitate, people may believe that religion provides a connection to something greater and miraculous.
However, instead we have mostly emotional, psychological, or anecdotal evidence. The great miracles of the bible have happened so long ago that their truth is highly questionable. The Catholic Church records, as the centuries passed, that miracles were becoming more and more scarce until nowadays it hardly recognizes any. Perhaps the explanation is this: as anecdotes became checked more thoroughly, science progressed, and records more carefully preserved, there was less room for the ancient myths to bloom.
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP.
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself.
You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here.
He's pretty much right. Faith is just that: faith. If you can bring yourself to accept the word of God and believe it, you have your faith in Him. If you can't, you can't. And people across the spectrum of opinions about religion on a forum aren't going to help you retain or abandon your faith, only you can. Take some time to figure things out for yourself, because if you are or aren't believing in God because of what someone else says, it's not really your belief.
There's nothing wrong with asking God for help in prayer. I asked Him for help when I doubted my faith and He came. If you're genuine, I believe he'll answer you too.
Hey what do you mean when he answered your prayer? I have prayed many times but never "felt anything." What was it like having God answer your prayer?
I feel compelled to respond, even though the question isn't directed at me personally. Most the time I don't even realize it's been answered, but there are several instances that stick out:
1). When I was a freshman in college I lived with an atheist roommate. Luckily he wasn't a jaded, closed off atheist, but a very open guy. We were able to talk in detail about our beliefs on several occasions, but respected each other enough not to impress our beliefs on the other person. One day at lunch he asked me to define the Holy Spirit. I had a brief moment of panic because I didn't have an "on-the-spot" definition. 7 years of parochial schools and I can't snap to it right away?! Pathetic. I postured as if I was thinking and said a quick prayer that I could define it. And then I gave him a brief response. It couldn't have been more than a few sentences. I can't honestly tell you what I said - it's like I was on auto-pilot. I remember clearly his response - "That makes perfect sense".
2). My second year of college my first girlfriend sighed very heavily and told me that she wanted to say something to me, but wanted to hear it from me first. I knew exactly what she was talking about, and honestly, the idea took me by surprise. So I prayed. I prayed for guidance. At that moment I didn't feel scared or speechless anymore. I felt calm, and at peace. That was good enough for me. And then I told her I loved her.
3). I worked as an RA for three years and on more than one occasion I had a resident in my room dealing with a major issue. Sometimes it was a breakup, sometimes it was family troubles, and sometimes it was stress. One time it was a suicide risk. Almost every time I'd be put on the spot unsure of what to do or say to make them feel better. I would pray for guidance every time, and every time they would leave my room feeling better, even if it was only a little bit. In the case of the suicide risk I made the call to have her picked up by the police/hospital before she could do anything to herself. In all cases I firmly believe I was acting with wisdom that was not my own enabled by the simple gesture of asking for it.
4). 2009-2010 was my last year of undergrad. I had no clue what I wanted to do with my life. One of my summer projects in 2009 was folding 1000 paper cranes - something I'd wanted to do for 10 years. The Japanese legend surrounding this number states that you get a wish upon completing 1000. One night, about 5 weeks after I started I finished the last crane. When I finished I prayed. I prayed that I may understand the next step in my life. This was in the middle of July. The only thing I knew for certain was that I was interested, but not sold, on the idea of grad school. In November I went to a conference that sold me. In January I put in all my applications. In February I got one acceptance. That same school offered to fly me (1000 miles away) for a tour. I was completely sold, but I needed a lot of money to move all that way. In mid-April I was called in the middle of lunch and basically offered a job as an engineering internship. Anyone who's looked for work like this during a recession will tell you that opportunities like this don't JUST happen. Not only was my path revealed and affirmed, but the means of making it literally fell into my lap. My prayers were answered and as a result of these "random" occurrences I'm convinced that my being here is no accident.
5). After a 10 month absence I went to church with a friend. The church calls themselves "Spirit-filled" and it is every bit pentecostal that I thought it would be. I never thought I'd find myself in a place like that. And I never thought I'd be enjoying it. I can dispel a lot of myths surrounding people who speak in tongues, sing worship songs with their arms held wide, and saying "Amen" and "That's Right" very openly during the sermon, but I can also affirm that it is very much real. I have a tendency to feel very self-conscious around them since all the things I've mentioned have never happened. And for reference - I have prayed to experience the filling of Spirit that they experience and it hasn't happened. I've mentioned before that I went through a heavy doubt period this winter and this church helped pull me out. Early on I started reading the Bible every night. On one of the first nights I asked to have an experience - any experience. Then I tried to go to sleep. Within five minutes my legs were restless and I felt an incredible urge to get up. So I did. I walked out near my computer and stood there. I was pretty scared since it was the middle of the night and I was standing there in the dark. My Bible was sitting next to my computer, so I grabbed it and brought it to bed with me. I felt another random urge and opened it, took my book mark from another page, and marked where I had opened it. Then all the restlessness left and I fell asleep pretty easily. When I woke up I was curious what I marked, since I never turned on a light. It was in 1 Kings. The first thing that caught my eye were the subheadings. On the left side is "Preparation for Building the Temple" and the right side "Solomon Builds the Temple". My prayer was answered. I had a strange experience and it gave me comfort. I shouldn't be intimidated by those with greater faith because my "temple" is still being built.
So those are my examples. Just so we're clear, the OP made the response and I'm responding to it. If the atheists and other nonreligious folk would like to debate the merits of my claims please do it via PM so the topic doesn't jump tangents - this is the OP's show, after all.
To the OP himself - please don't let this intimidate you. You are merely a work in progress yourself
On June 23 2011 10:48 blankspace wrote: Ok guys who say "faith without sight" (which I know very well, I grew up in the church)
Suppose you take the same person A who grew up in a Christian family and believes in something because he just "knows it." With the same type of personality, suppose A grew up in a buddhist family. Likely, he could have the same type of "faith without sight." I think the islamic suicide bombers (and I am not saying they are the same as most christians here) had extreme faith without sufficient "sight" to the point of throwing their lives away.
Yet the Christians would say that their "faith without sight" is correct. If Jesus says in the bible that those who believe without sight are blessed, and another religion says a similar thing, on what grounds do you have to claim that your intuition is better?
All I was bringing up by "faith without sight" is that that's what faith essentially is, believing without seeing, I wasn't providing ANY commentary about the differences between religions at all.
Sorry I shouldn't have phrased it in a way that seemed directed towards you or others, I meant it as my personal opinion and a general comment towards the op.
That's a great thing to have. However, as a Christian, I know that Peter writes in the Bible that we should be ready to give reason for the hope that we have. That's why I have read many books, watched many debates, and listened to many lectures on the topic. When conversations like these arise, I am able to defend and discuss my faith with almost anyone
1. Believe in God 2. Believe in Jebus 3. Don't go to church (organized religion sucks anyways) 4. Do good things / don't do sin
ez life. No need to carry around a thousand year old book to guide you in today's society. No need to revolve your entire life around faith. Just live your life to the fullest.
But hey, at least you are not a muslim of ye weak faith. Imagine the inner mind battles. brb stoning homos > democracy
1. The Gospels provide internal evidence that the writers themselves were either eyewitnesses of the events or interviewers of eyewitnesses.
2. The Gospels are full of irrelevant details that have no needed meaning for the story of Jesus. There are places all over where it says things like "early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark"... now if these books were written just as stories, and not eyewitness accounts, why would they include this type of information?
3. The Gospels are full of self-destructive details. Such as when they all write that the empty tomb was first discovered by a woman. In that time, a woman was not considered a credible source... So if they were making this up, and they wanted their information to be credible, why would they all make the first eyewitness to the empty tomb a woman?
4. Mostly, the Gospels give the same basic account of Jesus' life. If they were written individually, where did the consistency come from? However, they also contain minor discrepancies, displaying evidence that they were not all written from the same original writing.
5. The Gospels just are not written in a literary format that would be considered as a legendary writing format. Writers in this day did not often write fiction in this way. It was not until much later that that particular writing style was invented.
6. What motives would these writers have for making up stories about Jesus? They died painful deaths for what they wrote and believed in. Why would they die for a lie?
7.There are many archaeological findings to corroborate what the Gospels have written. There have been no archaeological findings that contradict conclusively what the Gospels have written.
So you see, it looks to me like the Gospels are reliable as historic documents. They record very clearly a man named Jesus, who claimed to be, and did acts to show that he was God.
Vergil's personification of rumor in Aeneidos Liber Quartus: + Show Spoiler +
She flourishes by speed, and gains strength as she goes: first limited by fear, she soon reaches into the sky, walks on the ground, and hides her head in the clouds. Earth ... bore her last, a monster, vast and terrible, fleet-winged and swift-footed, ... who for every feather on her body has as many watchful eyes below, as many tongues speaking, as many listening ears.
If you've ever played the game "telephone" at a summer camp or something then you already understand how terribly distorted information can become when passed from one individual to another. We're fortunate to live in an age where misinformation is much less of a concern, but in a world where a person seldom ever traveled more than a few miles beyond his birthplace it's easy to understand how something could quickly get out of hand, especially when supernaturally charged.
With this in mind, examine the facts about the gospel. Even many Christian scholars agree with the consensus that they were written decades after the events they describe took place. Furthermore, scholars reject that any of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses (John is attributed to a collection of authors and Matthew is thought to have been based off of Mark. Mark and Luke are not even traditionally held to be eyewitness accounts).
If we can trust that the majority opinion of scholars on this subject, which has been researched extensively, then it is clear that the gospels must have been based off of secondhand information, which is a terrible source if truthfulness is important at all. It's naive to believe that there could not have been changes to the narrative of Jesus along the way. Don't forget, also, that even after the gospels were originally written, they were handed down through two millennia through repeated copies. The oldest manuscripts we have are from a few centuries after these books were written.
Your points are so trivial or questionable that they can't make up for the glaring problems I've just discussed. Your base your discussion below on the assumption that all four gospels are perfect accounts of the life of Jesus, but in light of all this I think you really should reexamine that thought. I might raise some additional points: why do hardly any sources outside of the Bible even mention such a monumental figure as Jesus? One of the only references to him from a secular writer is in a book by Tacitus, but even the authenticity of this reference is heavily disputed. Also, why did nobody take note of the awe-inspiring things the Bible says happened when Jesus died, like the darkness, the resurrection of the holy, the tearing of the temple curtain, and the earthquake?
I simply can't find myself very convinced that the gospel accounts can be taken as legitimate.
edit: I can't help but comment on this:
Also, it's really impossible to argue with evolution as it's a fact.
Evolution is accepted as a theory, which is held to be true by science unless contradictory evidence surfaces. Of course, much of what we can and have observed overwhelmingly confirms evolution, but there is no way to know that we will not have more knowledge in the future. Galilean relativity, established in 1632, was accepted until Einstein advanced his theory of special relativity in 1905. The people in the 17th century couldn't have fathomed in their wildest dreams modern developments like nuclear clocks, which we have used to test the ramifications of special relativity.
1. The Gospels provide internal evidence that the writers themselves were either eyewitnesses of the events or interviewers of eyewitnesses.
2. The Gospels are full of irrelevant details that have no needed meaning for the story of Jesus. There are places all over where it says things like "early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark"... now if these books were written just as stories, and not eyewitness accounts, why would they include this type of information?
3. The Gospels are full of self-destructive details. Such as when they all write that the empty tomb was first discovered by a woman. In that time, a woman was not considered a credible source... So if they were making this up, and they wanted their information to be credible, why would they all make the first eyewitness to the empty tomb a woman?
4. Mostly, the Gospels give the same basic account of Jesus' life. If they were written individually, where did the consistency come from? However, they also contain minor discrepancies, displaying evidence that they were not all written from the same original writing.
5. The Gospels just are not written in a literary format that would be considered as a legendary writing format. Writers in this day did not often write fiction in this way. It was not until much later that that particular writing style was invented.
6. What motives would these writers have for making up stories about Jesus? They died painful deaths for what they wrote and believed in. Why would they die for a lie?
7.There are many archaeological findings to corroborate what the Gospels have written. There have been no archaeological findings that contradict conclusively what the Gospels have written.
So you see, it looks to me like the Gospels are reliable as historic documents. They record very clearly a man named Jesus, who claimed to be, and did acts to show that he was God.
Vergil's personification of rumor in Aeneidos Liber Quartus: + Show Spoiler +
She flourishes by speed, and gains strength as she goes: first limited by fear, she soon reaches into the sky, walks on the ground, and hides her head in the clouds. Earth ... bore her last, a monster, vast and terrible, fleet-winged and swift-footed, ... who for every feather on her body has as many watchful eyes below, as many tongues speaking, as many listening ears.
If you've ever played the game "telephone" at a summer camp or something then you already understand how terribly distorted information can become when passed from one individual to another. We're fortunate to live in an age where misinformation is much less of a concern, but in a world where a person seldom ever traveled more than a few miles beyond his birthplace it's easy to understand how something could quickly get out of hand, especially when supernaturally charged.
With this in mind, examine the facts about the gospel. Even many Christian scholars agree with the consensus that they were written decades after the events they describe took place. Furthermore, scholars reject that any of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses (John is attributed to a collection of authors and Matthew is thought to have been based off of Mark. Mark and Luke are not even traditionally held to be eyewitness accounts).
If we can trust that the majority opinion of scholars on this subject, which has been researched extensively, then it is clear that the gospels must have been based off of secondhand information, which is a terrible source if truthfulness is important at all. It's naive to believe that there could not have been changes to the narrative of Jesus along the way. Don't forget, also, that even after the gospels were originally written, they were handed down through two millennia through repeated copies. The oldest manuscripts we have are from a few centuries after these books were written.
Your points are so trivial or questionable that they can't make up for the glaring problems I've just discussed. Your base your discussion below on the assumption that all four gospels are perfect accounts of the life of Jesus, but in light of all this I think you really should reexamine that thought. I might raise some additional points: why do hardly any sources outside of the Bible even mention such a monumental figure as Jesus? One of the only references to him from a secular writer is in a book by Tacitus, but even the authenticity of this reference is heavily disputed. Also, why did nobody take note of the awe-inspiring things the Bible says happened when Jesus died, like the darkness, the resurrection of the holy, the tearing of the temple curtain, and the earthquake?
I simply can't find myself very convinced that the gospel accounts can be taken as legitimate.
Yeah, except when we play telephone these days, we remember that we have computers, phones, voice recorders, camera's, etc. Also, a very high percentage of our society can read and write. Keep in mind that their entire society revolved around keeping accurate logs of what people said, and reciting it with accuracy later. Comparing that to telephone just does not work.
Think about it. Early century Christians were crucified, killed, murdered, and were just the Roman's scapegoats for blame. If that was you, would you not give up your made up convictions to escape that? I know I would. Why didn't they?
it says this in 1 Corinthians 15:
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Why would paul claim that most of the eyewitnesses were still living if there were no eyewitnesses... Seems a little elaborate for a telephone game scam.
Also, there are at least 3 independent sources outside the 4 Gospels where the historical Jesus is specifically mentioned. Josephus, Tacitus, and Paul are those three, all independent from the Gospels. Parts of tacitus's writing on Jesus is in question you are correct, but not its entirety.
Your statements about it being handed down for millenia are inaccurate. Most modern translations use the oldest manuscripts of which there are thousands of copies. Through the use and study of those manuscripts, the text is considered some 90+% completely accurate, with an additional 8% considered dependable. This leaves only a small percentage in question.
Also, for my points to be valid, I do not need the ENTIRE 4 gospels to be completely perfect, just reliable enough to be used for historical information. Keep in mind that the manuscripts for the NT Gospels are far earlier and more numerous than for any other comparitively aged document by plato, aristotle, alexander the great, etc.
It is good that you are questioning your position. Often times it is during this phase when you grow as a mature Christian. @bode927 I agree with your quote from Peter. Conceptual and theological understanding of the Gospel is as important as the spiritual experiences of Christians. I do not believe in blindly believing because i think that has a lot of bad consequences as there is no personal aspect to it.
Christian faith is not blindly believing. It is a personal relationship with God that is possible through the Holy Spirit. The personal relationship is built through experiences. But i guess you are also having a hard time 'experiencing the existence of God'. I too went through the same thought process that you are going through. I have a background in the life sciences where evidence is regarded as a requisite for truth and this thinking doesnt really apply explicitly to God (not everyone has seen God in His true form). Especially as I prayed, i also felt like my prayers werent being answered. But there is something you have to grasp about prayers and answers. God does not always answer our prayers in the way we expect. Some people hear the words of God as if He is whispering to them. Some people dont (in fact many of us probably dont). Some people hear the words of God when someone says to them the right words at the right moment. Some people experience the existence of God through other people's testimonies. Some people experience God as they look at their past and how they came to the place they're at right now.
If you still feel unsure about your prayers being unanswered. You should try keeping a prayer book for specific prayer requests that you have made. Its important that your prayers are specific and not generic because if it's too generic, you will never be able to convince that it was God or just luck.
Also with regards to your statements regarding whether religions are made for our morality. We, human beings, always seek to redeem ourselves. The wrongs, mistakes, regrets and all the things that we did that made us feel insecure need to be dealt with for us to feel secure. Religions give you that by its rituals prayers, rules, and laws that make us feel better because we feel as though we did something to redeem ourselves of our sins (a reason why OCDs exist; the need to complete a certain set of tasks before feeling comfortable). Religion works well because it gives a temporary relief to our insecurity and discomfort. But because we always make mistakes, we end up going back to the situation where we sin again (criminals have a high chance of repeating the same crime).
Christianity is not like thay. This is because Christianity is not a religon, by that i mean it's not about the things that we do (e.g. Not watching porn, not killing people, following the ten commandments). If you have read the Bible, you will know that the Gospel is not about us trying to redeem ourselves of the bad things we committed (e.g. Watching porn or killing our neighbour). The Gospel says that Jesus Christ came to Earth to clean us of our sins. What does that mean? It means that we dont need to do religious rituals, prayers, or kill animals to make the Creator who made us happy from killing us for committing sins. Yes, there are the rules and laws that are stated in the Old Testament but that was before Jesus came to Earth. Jesus came so that we do not have to do any of the religious rituals to redeem ourselves of the guilt we feel (God does not "require" us to repent for our sins. Repenting for what we did should be done because we want to not because we ought to. This is possible because Jesus already dealt with our sins through his death).
I.e. Christianity is not about what we do or who we are(our moral behaviours) but what God did so that we dont have to redeem ourselves.
You mentioned that you want to believe in God but you find it hard. Well then, you should pray that God would give you the heart to believe in Him. Know that we are not perfect. We, by nature, want to move away from God and live out our lives partying, having sex, taking drugs, and killing others we dont like(read CNN and count the number of murder reports). That is why we need to pray that God helps us believe in Him. We cannot do it by ourselves.
I understand why you may feel like 'serving God' may eventually prove to seem like a waste of time especially when serving God limits us from doing so many things that we want to do. But do you really want to spend your life doing all the things that are on your mind now? I've heard of people regretting one night stands(pregnancy), overdosing themselves with drugs/alcohol, and committing murders, but i've never heard of anyone who truly had a personal relationship with Christ regret that. Im not saying everyone regrets doing the things above.
The above is bad logic and i admit it. But reality doesnt make sense, fiction does.
Lastly, faith without sight is NOT correct at least according to the Bible. Also, reason is as important in Christian faith as 'emotion'. There's a reason why theology is an academic discipline, to 'understand', not feel, God.
As some already said, be careful not to confuse questions.
I there a god (=supernatural entity)? Does god exist the way depicted by the church? Do I believe in the church as the way to practise my religion?
Those are all different questions, and I would begin with the first one.
As to the "I feel myself degrading slowly morally": Again another business entirely. If you believe in god and the church as an institution representing god on earth, then obviously their moral rules, would be yours. But there are a lot of other ways to find moral guidelines to be a "good" person.
As already stated, in the end you have to answer those questions yourself. Thats going to take time and wont go planned, but some day you are going to come across something that decides you. Just go searching - in all directions. Study your religion, study non-religious philosophy, maybe also study other religions - but most of all ask questions yourself and see if the answers given to you make sense - and if not find your own.
You remind me a lot of me, except you worry a lot more. Try not to worry so much. Here's a quote for you:
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones" - Marcus Aurelius
What you need to realize about the Bible is that Catholic's don't entirely accept the Bible's stories as completely verbatim. I had this discussion with my dad last night about the whole seven days thing in creation vs. the big bang. The way he put it is: What's 7 days to a real god? Time doesn't even exist to him everything is just in the knowing. In reality what seems more plausible is that God was behind the big bang. In fact evolution is completely accepted as a theory in the Catholic Doctrine.
The biggest thing's that religion can give, (at least what I think), is hope and perseverance. The poorest of countries have a strong coorelation to religion, and it's not just because of the education, it's because it gives people hope that the end of our lives is just the beginning something more real. Quite simply Religion gives purpose to our life other than just living it. In an unfair world, only a just god would help give equality and balance to our universe.
In my personal experience, doubts are okay because they are just instances where we can grow our faith. You shouldn't feel bad about the way it's going, especially with the way you still want to learn. However during my times of doubt, especially when I asked questions like "Do you even exist" or "Why did you do this or let this happen", the answer occurs to me later in the big picture, only through endurance and hope. And as for these morals and virtues, I found them a lot easier to attain with church/surrounding myself with other people striving for the same thing. People are right, you can be a good person without church or religion, however, faith sure does help. People in history that I admire, gandhi, MLK, mother theresa, etc, are all people of religious backgrounds, I for sure bet if we asked them if religion was a big role in their growth as a person they would say yes. Anyways, I hope somewhere along the way you find your answer but regardless I hope you also continue to grow as a person. God speed
Hey guys debates are fun but this really isn't a religion vs atheism thread (edit: lotsa posts happened since I started this rant ) it's more of a everyone present their views and reasons so the OP can take it all in and make his own semi-informed decision. I say semi because any decision regarding a belief/faith system contains an element of uncertainty. I was raised in a very orthodox Jewish house by a very learned man (nuclear physicist/rabbi). I struggled a lot with religion, especially after my sexuality surfaced as that's a real sticking point with most orthodox religions. I went through a hardcore atheist/debating phase as many people do when they transition from a world like that. I used to be one of the atheists who would pretty much attack anyone expressing religious beliefs, in fact my beliefs most line up with the HC troll from earlier.
That said, my personal belief system has changed over the years. I spent two years living in FL with a very conservative christian family, and was part of a community that was majority religous. I was privy to alot of their faith related discussions and they frequently included me as (I think) an entertaining counterpoint. I am no longer an asshole about the issue, that is the best way to put it. I still don't believe in god, but my beliefs have expanded. One thing I've learned is that everyone experiences doubt. People like to say there are no atheists in foxholes. This references the fact that many atheists experience doubt too, which they attempt to shrug off as weakness.
Doubt, in of itself, does NOT mean that you are a bad christian or destined to become an atheist. I would really encourage you to read books from both sides of the issue and spend some time meditating. Spend some daily time, preferably after your reading, in complete silence. Attempt not to think. I learned how to meditate from a pastor in FL who I loved talking too. He did it to feel at peace and closer to god. I did it to try to achieve a deeper calm, and shrug off superficial crap that kept me from being a centered person. The point here is, contemplation is good. Meditation/prayer are both helpful. Just remember that the results are going to be similar either way. No-one will give you a right answer and whichever way you go you will not end up with any comfortable security in being right unless you (imo) are unhealthily arrogant. Rest assured that you are a good person, this doubt doesn't make you evil in anyone's eyes. The looking at porn thing too does not make you an evil person.
I think the biggest point I wanted to make is that you don't need an immediate decision! It's apparent that you are beginning to realize that you've never taken the time to contemplate this so it's a good thing to take a step back and meditate on it. Some of the greatest people I know have been religious, but also some of the worst most small minded people I know have been. Religion in of itself is no reflection on your character or intelligence. My father is a crazily conservative Jew. I think he is crazy for his beliefs, however I promise you that man is smarter then 90% of the people I've ever met (I'm not exaggerating it actually used to drive me crazy). This doubt is just a sign that you are maturing intellectually. That does not mean I think maturity = rejection of your childhood beliefs but this is a transition period most thinking people of faith do experience.
You will either come out of it with a deeper faith or a new self-created belief system but either way you WILL grow. You might even be lucky enough to feel 100% confident in your beliefs when you come out of it, just in time for the next belief-shaking episode of doubt. That is life. Anyone who tells you they have never experienced some form of doubt is either lying or hasn't experienced it yet or really really lucky. Congratulations though, whatever you decide just realize you are developing and that is a beautiful thing.
My mother went through the same thing during her college years. She told me that all Christians/religious people go through it at some point. All it is, is setting yourself apart from what you've been taught your entire life, and making decisions based on that. She's still a devout Christian. Personally, I think it's just a state of maturation that everyone goes through with everything. This is just a little more important imo.
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP.
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself.
You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here.
He's pretty much right. Faith is just that: faith. If you can bring yourself to accept the word of God and believe it, you have your faith in Him. If you can't, you can't. And people across the spectrum of opinions about religion on a forum aren't going to help you retain or abandon your faith, only you can. Take some time to figure things out for yourself, because if you are or aren't believing in God because of what someone else says, it's not really your belief.
There's nothing wrong with asking God for help in prayer. I asked Him for help when I doubted my faith and He came. If you're genuine, I believe he'll answer you too.
Hey what do you mean when he answered your prayer? I have prayed many times but never "felt anything." What was it like having God answer your prayer?
It was a quite a few years ago. I was really lonely, going to a school with people that were just unlike me, having parents that couldn't go a day without screaming at each other. I began to question my faith because of how alone I felt. So I prayed to God, asked Him to show me that He exists to give me something hopeful. He didn't come and be like "hey here I am, now cheer up." But I felt God's presence, I felt Him comfort me. After that I became a much happier person know that he's always with me.
You say that you want to believe in god but you're finding it hard. My question to you would be why do you want to believe? It's certainly possible (probably even easier) to be a good person and live a good life without religion, so what benefit do you gain from your faith? Personally I was raised in a non-religious family and I couldn't even imagine committing so much of my mind and time to believing in something that can't be proven. Ultimately though which religion or lack thereof that you choose to believe in is a personal decision that should be made after informing yourself of all available options and deciding for yourself which seems to be the most plausible.
On June 24 2011 03:54 Shifft wrote: You say that you want to believe in god but you're finding it hard. My question to you would be why do you want to believe? It's certainly possible (probably even easier) to be a good person and live a good life without religion, so what benefit do you gain from your faith? Personally I was raised in a non-religious family and I couldn't even imagine committing so much of my mind and time to believing in something that can't be proven. Ultimately though which religion or lack thereof that you choose to believe in is a personal decision that should be made after informing yourself of all available options and deciding for yourself which seems to be the most plausible.
Only reason I can imagine for a rational person wanting to be part of a religious group is having a community. Most of us need friends, people that support us and for some it is not as easy to gain permanent source of human compassion. This is the easy way, If of course you can accept some rules(or fake it). Other reason may be that some people want to have some power over people and this is possible in these groups where you became a shepherd of your own sheep and you can even rise in the hierarchy - so it may be a life-time self-realization.
Op, just seems as just need to kinda take a moment and think about it for yourself. Study up on it a bit as someone mentioned and just make your own decision about it. And if you are afraid of death I dont know the international name for them ,but "KBT" psychologist (I think KBT is the swedish term) are great with working with phobias.
Had the same problem as you with being afraid of death, but they helped me get over it ^____^
On July 07 2011 19:35 LastWish wrote: Only reason I can imagine for a rational person wanting to be part of a religious group is having a community. Most of us need friends, people that support us and for some it is not as easy to gain permanent source of human compassion. This is the easy way, If of course you can accept some rules(or fake it). Other reason may be that some people want to have some power over people and this is possible in these groups where you became a shepherd of your own sheep and you can even rise in the hierarchy - so it may be a life-time self-realization.
That's a good reason for joining any group, not just one that is religious in nature. That is NOT a good reason for having a certain belief like the OP's. A rational person should have rational reasons for believing (whether it be existential, historical, logical, etc.). The Christian community would fall apart if its members were only there for community or security or comfort (which many would say is happening now) and not on a strong belief in the actual core tenets of Christianity (mankind's depravity, Jesus' deity, death and resurrection, etc.)
On June 24 2011 03:54 Shifft wrote: My question to you would be why do you want to believe? It's certainly possible (probably even easier) to be a good person and live a good life without religion, so what benefit do you gain from your faith?
Good question. However, belief shouldn't be contingent on perceived benefits, it should be because of truth. If something is true, you should respond accordingly regardless of whether you benefit. You don't benefit much from believe someone is pointing a gun at you with bad intentions, but if that is reality, that gun is there regardless of what you want to believe.
NOTE: I'm not trying to make any truth claims about Christianity, I'm just saying that belief should be rational. Christians should have a good reason for believing what they believe that go beyond apparent benefits they receive, because 1) if you don't have good reason to believe, there's no reason for you to be a 'Christian', and 2) Christianity at its core is NOT about benefiting the believer, but giving glory to God.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
So, any advice on how to get through this phase? Or what to do?
Most christians do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible, especially in the old testament. Basically, the most rational way to get value out of the bible is to understand it as a series of stories meant to teach a lesson, some of which make sense, and some of which dont. Even though it was inspired by divine events, the Bible has been written, rewritten, and translated by mortal hands, and so, like the people who wrote it, it is flawed. Even the Gospels are at odds, and they are second-hand descriptions anyways.
Live life like jesus would; be kind to others, and gentle. Speak with forgiveness and understanding. Don't be good due to some childish ideas of the afterlife, but rather, do well by your fellow man because it is righteous. This is how Jesus would want you to live. Belief in God and those other side dishes like the Bible and the Saints will come and go. And that's okay, as long as you keep on working on the main course of being as good a man as you can.
If you've ever played the game "telephone" at a summer camp or something then you already understand how terribly distorted information can become when passed from one individual to another. We're fortunate to live in an age where misinformation is much less of a concern, but in a world where a person seldom ever traveled more than a few miles beyond his birthplace it's easy to understand how something could quickly get out of hand, especially when supernaturally charged.
With this in mind, examine the facts about the gospel. Even many Christian scholars agree with the consensus that they were written decades after the events they describe took place. Furthermore, scholars reject that any of the gospels were written by eyewitnesses (John is attributed to a collection of authors and Matthew is thought to have been based off of Mark. Mark and Luke are not even traditionally held to be eyewitness accounts).
If we can trust that the majority opinion of scholars on this subject, which has been researched extensively, then it is clear that the gospels must have been based off of secondhand information, which is a terrible source if truthfulness is important at all. It's naive to believe that there could not have been changes to the narrative of Jesus along the way. Don't forget, also, that even after the gospels were originally written, they were handed down through two millennia through repeated copies. The oldest manuscripts we have are from a few centuries after these books were written.
Your points are so trivial or questionable that they can't make up for the glaring problems I've just discussed. Your base your discussion below on the assumption that all four gospels are perfect accounts of the life of Jesus, but in light of all this I think you really should reexamine that thought. I might raise some additional points: why do hardly any sources outside of the Bible even mention such a monumental figure as Jesus? One of the only references to him from a secular writer is in a book by Tacitus, but even the authenticity of this reference is heavily disputed. Also, why did nobody take note of the awe-inspiring things the Bible says happened when Jesus died, like the darkness, the resurrection of the holy, the tearing of the temple curtain, and the earthquake?
I simply can't find myself very convinced that the gospel accounts can be taken as legitimate.
I agree with you that the majority of scholars, both conservative and critical, cannot support the authorship and accuracy of the four gospels. However, they do support several books (undisputed among critical scholars) that contain accounts, specifically Galatians and 1 Corinthians, which directly reference Jesus, his claim to deity, and his death and resurrection. The author, Paul (which is, again, undisputed), spent the first half of his life persecuting Christians. Why would he then spend the second half living a lie, to death, in complete opposition to his previous beliefs?
I think you underestimate the significance of second-hand sources and time between event (death of Jesus) and first record [of decades] which I believe is about 25 years (1 Corinthians). Is this not better than the works of Plutarch on Alexander the Great, or Homer and his Iliad (unless you don't believe them) which are on the order of centuries? Gary Habermas has done a lot of research in this area and says that virtually no scholars, including critical non-believing scholars, deny the existence or death of Jesus, only his resurrection and deity. The Bible also has hundreds of manuscript copies and thousands of fragments to work from, which is many times better than any other records of history. Looking at those copies and fragments, as based on work done by Bruce Metzger and Bart Ehrman, you will find that the majority of the differences are trivial and there is an obvious consensus, specifically on core doctrine.
Most christians do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible, especially in the old testament. Basically, the most rational way to get value out of the bible is to understand it as a series of stories meant to teach a lesson, some of which make sense, and some of which dont. Even though it was inspired by divine events, the Bible has been written, rewritten, and translated by mortal hands, and so, like the people who wrote it, it is flawed. Even the Gospels are at odds, and they are second-hand descriptions anyways.
Live life like jesus would; be kind to others, and gentle. Speak with forgiveness and understanding. Don't be good due to some childish ideas of the afterlife, but rather, do well by your fellow man because it is righteous. This is how Jesus would want you to live. Belief in God and those other side dishes like the Bible and the Saints will come and go. And that's okay, as long as you keep on working on the main course of being as good a man as you can.
I think that most people who call themselves Christians take the Bible literally, which is wrong. They should take the Bible at face value, or as intended by the original author. Most of the time it is obvious from the original text whether the language is figurative (poetry) or literal (laws or protocols); other times, it is not (like the Genesis accounts). However, I do not see any issue with disagreement with these portions of text as they are not core doctrine. (Yes, I believe the creation account as told in Genesis is not core doctrine when compared to fallen-ness of mankind, and the deity and resurrection of Jesus.)
Your assessment, if for the non-believer, is sound. A Christian should never do this. Although the Bible espouses good moral behaviour, like many people have said, you do not need the Bible or religion in general to do that, not does Christianity require good moral behaviour as a prerequisite for belief. Christianity is about and broken spiritual condition of humanity with respect to God, and a need to remedy that condition and relationship as done through Jesus.
Holy wall of text! Though, a post on this subject is sure to garner such wordy responses due to the nature of the internet.
@OP, I agree with Preppy038's post. Christianity is not about living up to a moral standard so we can get out of burning in hell. It's about a God who loved the world so much that he sacrificed himself, dieing to keep us from that death. Most of the rest is just fluff.
I've had a relatively crazy journey over the course of my 25 years, from Missionary Kid to Atheist and back to Christian, and I've hit many a period where I questioned everything I believed. I say question with vigor. The truth will come out eventually, one way or the other.
I'm not really Christian so I may not offer much help. I'm actually Muslim.
Anyways, I understand how you feel. As far as I know this happens to a lot of religious people especially these days where you have people bashing religion almost everywhere. Although it's a bit easier for me seeing as I live in the middle east where practicing your religion (Whatever it is) isn't frowned upon.
My only advice to you is to actually study your religion thoroughly from various sources. Being of a different religion I can't tell you that your religion is the 'right' one but all what I can tell you is to study your religion and then make a decision. Form your own opinion from your own beliefs and not from what people tell you. You will either end up not believing...OR you would end up being a better believer.
Hope this helps.
I fully agree with this person. I came to Judaism by doing exactly this. Study your religion. Study it from various sources. As a religious person you should feel an obligation (that many do not fulfill) to be educated in the faith you pursue. Don't believe what people tell you. Form your own opinion. The bottom line: INFORM yourself before making an INFORMED decision.
Most christians do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible, especially in the old testament. Basically, the most rational way to get value out of the bible is to understand it as a series of stories meant to teach a lesson, some of which make sense, and some of which dont. Even though it was inspired by divine events, the Bible has been written, rewritten, and translated by mortal hands, and so, like the people who wrote it, it is flawed. Even the Gospels are at odds, and they are second-hand descriptions anyways.
Live life like jesus would; be kind to others, and gentle. Speak with forgiveness and understanding. Don't be good due to some childish ideas of the afterlife, but rather, do well by your fellow man because it is righteous. This is how Jesus would want you to live. Belief in God and those other side dishes like the Bible and the Saints will come and go. And that's okay, as long as you keep on working on the main course of being as good a man as you can.
I think that most people who call themselves Christians take the Bible literally, which is wrong. They should take the Bible at face value, or as intended by the original author. Most of the time it is obvious from the original text whether the language is figurative (poetry) or literal (laws or protocols); other times, it is not (like the Genesis accounts). However, I do not see any issue with disagreement with these portions of text as they are not core doctrine. (Yes, I believe the creation account as told in Genesis is not core doctrine when compared to fallen -ness of mankind, and the deity and resurrection of Jesus.)
Your assessment, if for the non-believer, is sound. A Christian should never do this. Although the Bible espouses good moral behaviour, like many people have said, you do not need the Bible or religion in general to do that, not does Christianity require good moral behaviour as a prerequisite for belief. Christianity is about and broken spiritual condition of humanity with respect to God, and a need to remedy that condition and relationship as done through Jesus.
EDIT: Quotes spoilered.
I suppose then we have a fundamental disagreement about the nature of spirituality, which I can respect. it's worth noting, though, that when you say "a christian should never do this" you mean that just in your opinion. I believe that as a man explores his spirituality and the world around him, trying to live a good and christlike life is sometimes all he can do in a dark and confusing world, where a solid relationship with God and Jesus can wax and wane. Given that this is what the OP is dealing with, I stand by my advice: OP, go into the world with kindness and mercy in your heart and know that often, spirituality is a winding, rough and confusing road, but as long as a man remains Good, he shall come out of it well. Any who disagree with me on this will have to do better than talking about the "broken spiritual condition of humanity" to convince me that my Christianity is wrong.
So basically, you have doubt in your religion, you see all the flaws of your religion, you see it's just as much garbage as all other religions, it's just causing problems, but you still say 'I really do want to believe in god' ? The only answer anyone could possibly give you would in my opinion have to be: 'Just dont believe in it'
Why do you have to clump up your religion with God? What is God? Nobody knows what God is and therefore the question if he/she/it exist becomes quite irrelevant. To some god is a person within them whom they have a relationship with, to some its the overwhelming feeling they get when they see something beautifull, to others its love.
Its very possible to have a deep relation with "God" without beeing religous. Abandoning religon does not mean abandoning God.
Religon is a collection of stories and moral guidelines created by men. If you belive in the first testament you should kill people who works on sundays. Why mix up stupid stuff like that with your own spirituallity?
There are other ways than blind fate vs atheism =)
i think even atheists have deep relationships with god
what would I call evidence for God? 1) when i see hell with my own eyes, i'll believe there's got to be a heaven 2) when God takes me to his dimension and beat the living animal out of me 3) when there is a law of human nature that we really have to obey
my advice, keep looking and be brave. blind belief is for pussies. the truth will come out sooner or later. go right into it.
oh and for the bible, learning about the history and the writer and his audience is more important. lol if you take everything literally, one day people would be trying to be wizards after reading Harry Potter.
Let me just say, i'm a non-christian, so my opinion will probably naturally tend towards a slightly non-christian point of view, though I think I can think objectively enough not to let it seep into my post too much.
Put simply, I'd say that if you can't force yourself to believe in the things said in the bible, then just don't.
I was raised christian (not fundamental by any means, but nonetheless when it mattered my parents were christians. Damn casuals ^^) and I came to the conclusion by myself that I don't really find any reason to believe in any of this stuff. If you find yourself having the same doubts, then instead of trying to hammer in beliefs you're already questioning (and end up living a life of doubt where you're secretly questioning your own beliefs).
Live your life to the fullest, no doubt. Don't (this is where my personal bias probably seeps in a bit TT) let the rulings of an old book make you feel guilty about what you're doing. However, don't think that because you aren't under the rule of said book you can do whatever you want. It's a complete misconception that atheists are somehow less intuitively moral then christians.
From my point of view, I find it much better to live a good, moral life than to live a good, moral life but always fear god's judgement.
I think you're a nice, upstanding guy, so if you decide to drop your christianity, don't let it affect your personality (assuming that your faith wasn't a gigantic part of your personality from before, which I doubt it was). Just live your life as you would of, and realize that you don't need God to tell you how to live your life.
I'd type something here apologizing for being biased, but we all are. Just like nobody can be completely unbiased on things like gender equality etc (because we all [generally...] belong to one gender. Similarly we all either belong to a religion or don't)
man just do what makes YOU happy, and what you believe in. Its your life, live it once. If praying on sundays and believing in something makes you feel happy and warm inside, then do that. If sitting at your computer sunday mornings playing starcraft is what would make you feel the best then do that.
even if you have a vague beliefe in "god" then would he not understand you enjoying your life, living it to the highest happiness you can achieve for yourself all the while being good to others. At the end of the day, I cant see a god burning you for all eternity for enjoying the thing he gave you.
To state my bias: I'm a Christian, and can only speak for myself.
Ultimately, you will need to make a choice. To believe or not. And why is that? Well, if you saw God or the devil in person tomorrow, and you could trust your senses, and from then on declared "God is real" or "the devil is real" to the world, is that Faith? On the other hand, if tomorrow you are asked whether or not God is real, and you answer yes, and you could trust in what you've said, is that Faith?
From my own personal experience, the situation is like crossing a crevasse on a rope bridge. You need to be sure that the end on your side of the chasm is secure. You need to be sure that the end on the other side of the chasm is secure. And you need to trust that the rope you're standing on will hold, no matter how much it sways or how many threads fall away from it.
Either way, you're going to have to trust that the rope is going to hold, assuming you aren't some artisan that makes a living fabricating ropes and can judge the integrity of one just by looking. So what your task then becomes is to figure out whether there is something in the past that serves as a testament to one type of life or another. And then what your task becomes is to figure out whether there is something in the future that serves as a testament to one type of life or another. Because you're already going to have a hard enough time worrying about whether the rope is going to hold. You can't afford to worry about whether or not the bridge is going to lose its anchors.
I would argue that those anchors don't need to be something spectacular or supernatural, with regards to any type of life. But the anchors do need to be stable. And I think you have reached the point in your life at which you need to find that stability, so you can keep on going, enduring all that life throws at you, without regrets of a path not take or a choice not made. From a Christian point of view then, those anchors are a part of the gift called Faith. It's not something that we can just make for ourselves, but rather something that is to be sought out ceaselessly when lost and cherished ceaselessly when found. That's just my two cents. I hope you find what you are looking for.
In my own case, it took a long while of wandering before I finally came back.
Like others who have posted before me, I'd like to emphasize two points from both "sides" of the discussion. First, that your situation is completely normal, and many/most Christians go through something similar at some point. And second, that if you (regrettably) fall away from your Christian life, don't let that become an "excuse" to become a bad person in both the Christian sense and the atheistic sense. Perhaps you may not be a "good" person in the strictest theistic sense then, but the world doesn't need any more rotten people. "Light up the darkness." In either case.
Lastly, growing pains are a reality. Don't take them as a sign of stagnation, necessarily. Instead, even this situation and the questions you have can be taken as a sign that you still want to grow as a person (and hopefully also as a believer) and in some ways, this may never go away. But as with everything else living, we either grow or we die. May you grow.
On July 08 2011 09:21 IzieBoy wrote: i think even atheists have deep relationships with god
Deep down, you really don't believe that.
As an Atheist I laugh whenever religious people convince themselves that Atheists believe in a deity.
To the OP:
It really depends on whether you want to follow science or faith. I'm an Atheist so I couldn't understand the faith route, but some good friends of mine are fairly devout and have acknowledged the scietific (he even referred to it as the "logical" view).
Whatever you do, it's important to be satisfied with what you decide.
On July 08 2011 01:09 Chromyne wrote: I think that most people who call themselves Christians take the Bible literally, which is wrong. They should take the Bible at face value, or as intended by the original author. Most of the time it is obvious from the original text whether the language is figurative (poetry) or literal (laws or protocols); other times, it is not (like the Genesis accounts). However, I do not see any issue with disagreement with these portions of text as they are not core doctrine. (Yes, I believe the creation account as told in Genesis is not core doctrine when compared to fallen-ness of mankind, and the deity and resurrection of Jesus.)
So you believe that Genesis is figurative. How about when Jesus turned water into wine? Or when people were healed? Do you take that at face value or was the intention by the original author poetry?
Many Christians like to cherry-pick which bits are meant to be taken literally and which parts aren't. Generally if God did something evil like in the Old Testament or Revelations, it's meant to be just a metaphor, but if Jesus died and rose again after three days then it's a miracle and if you don't accept it you won't be saved.
Don't know if this will help at all, but it's a little of my personal experience. Just to state, I'm christian.
I basically grew up in church (pentacostal or whatever denomination u want to throw it into) and I always felt I had a strong relationship with God (people can take this terminology apart if they want, but w.e), praying often, reading my bible, going to church, having a home group, etc. My parents were always involved at church and I joined the music/worship team when I could. I didnt do it to get girls or popularity, or even cos I enjoyed music. I honestly did it because I wanted to please God.
Skip ahead 10 years and I found myself studying to be a chemical engineer. My first year was great, but the more I learned about science, and the more people I came to know, the more a doubt of my faith started to creep into my life. I started to wonder if everything I had learned and even studied (i took a gap year to do theology training and serve and my own church) was ever really true. For months I just stopped reading the Bible, stopped praying, and I too found my moral standard slipping a bit, not to say I'm a perfect guy, but I just didn't like who I was becoming. This got me to thinking that maybe my doubts are just there to distract me. One thing that I could rely on however was my family and friends, my friends especially. Sometime I think that they find it so much easier to believe in God because of their backgrounds. They seem to have an unwavering faith that makes me want to be like them. The funny part is that I was the one to bring them to church. My advice is to speak to family and friends, people you trust. People can tell u all sorts of things to encourage you or discourage you. But for me, I found that by just looking back at my life, there are things that have happened that can only point towards a God that loves me.
I hope you're able to come to terms with what you're going through. Know that you aren't alone in your doubts. Sometimes reading the Bible just doesn't feel like it will help, and sometimes just fighting and shouting about it won't make any difference.
In the end it's all about you, and what you have done with your life. Some believe that it all ends when we die. Others believe we are reincarnated and some believe in an eternity spent either in heaven or hell. I'm not gonna tell u what to believe, but I know what I believe, and I hope something happens that will help you with your decision at the end of the day.
Lastly, if you know you once believed in God, then ask him to reaffirm your faith in him. The Bible says he never leaves us, so why not test him? (hope this doesn't offend anyone) But be sincere, don't go looking for an excuse.
It seems to me like you have grown and matured to the point where you are actually questioning things in your life. This is a good thing! Don't shy away from it! As many of the posters have said you shouldn't stress too much about it but here's how I dealt with my insecurities: I decided that the views of my friends and family were useful to a point but that I needed to read authors that have much more to say about everything about this issue.
I must say that ultimately, "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins was the most eye-opening and powerful book I have ever read. If you are left generally unsatisfied by people saying essentially, "It is what you make it" and you would prefer logical insight into the reasons we believe what we believe and how they are right or wrong, I would strongly recommend this book. Be warned though, if you are easily offended, you might have to grow thick skin to get through it ^.^
I am not Christian. I am Muslim, but I will try to offer a few bits of general advice and hopefully you can benefit from them.
I think you need to narrow down a few things about your faith and focus on exploring those. To say that you're having general doubt about passages from the bible and the existence of God, put a lot up for grabs and perhaps you need to tackle things one by one. Is it a specific passages or ideals that you're having trouble accepting? Are there certain attributes in the interpretation of God that are making you doubt?
I also have to ask, is there anything else in your life that's troubling you that is causing you to question your beliefs. There are times when people are going through immense hardship in their life and it maybe hard to keep faith during those times because you think, 'hey i'm a good person, why does God do this to me?'
We need to know a few more specifics on your life. As for the porn situation and for other things that you do that are against your faith, yes, you should feel guilt for that but that shouldn't deter you from not believing. I know at times that may make you feel hypocritical for believing one thing and then doing another but that's all about setting higher standards for yourself and sometimes not being able to meet them and you cant become a better person without those standards. So there's no point in abandoning them, even if you're having trouble meeting them.
Also maybe just go to a different Church and get a different perspective.
As for what is faith, I could sit here and put out a dictionary definition, but that isn't what you need. I dont believe in following something blindly. I follow my religion because I believe in it 100%. I was fortunate enough to be able to study it academically for a good portion of my life and to have people around me who did the same. Is it hard to follow? Yes, at times it is, especially when you grow older and you're just not around the same people any more. My best friends are atheists and I love them to death. The respect me an respect how much i stick to my beliefs but there are time when I think to myself that I would fit in better with their friends if I abandoned some of my practices, luckily I havent. It's because I do believe that if I did so, I'd be living a lie and I think sometimes they cherish the beliefs that make up my personality.
My advice is to tackle things one by one. Do some research and get some fresh ideas from other Christians. One of my strongest reasons for believing in God is because of being confident in the religion around it. It's not necessarily because I can 'feel' His presence. Although, there are times where I do. It's because there's a structure of logic that holds it all up for me. For instance, science supports the Big Bang Theory and evolution. It's still being explored and some parts of each theory are stronger than others, but Islam does talk about things evolving from water and the universe always expanding. So while things like evolution and the big bang are used as evidence against religion. That stuff helps me because when people make that accusation, I know it's because they dont know enough about my religion. I've also met Muslims that are surprised when they hear me talk about verses in the Quran referring to stuff like that. My point is they don't know enough about their own religion to be able to defend those arguments, which maybe what's happening in your case. You simply may just be lacking information here about your own religion.
Truth doesn't come from your desires. Try to evaluate the world as you experience it and determine what is real based on what you observe. Don't believe in something just for the sake of being able to better sleep at night - if the whole world forced itself into ignorance human progression would end. Instead, accept the truth and the world and strive to better it through bettering yourself.
EPT
