EPTDoubt isn't necessarily a bad thing, not everyone is able to lie to themselves in order to live the way that they were brought up to believe is "the right way".
Christianity and Faith - Page 6
| Blogs > plbro81 |
Oh boy, a religion thread <_< Remember to keep discussion civil. I'll be monitoring this heavily - empyrean. | ||
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
Doubt isn't necessarily a bad thing, not everyone is able to lie to themselves in order to live the way that they were brought up to believe is "the right way". | ||
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opsayo
591 Posts
I went through the same thing. | ||
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Exal
Denmark35 Posts
You should listen to Derren Brown talk about his feelings about religion and his religious upbringing, I think you will be able to relate a lot to him | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
You're already covered by the original Covenants, there's no need for you to pursue the New Covenant. You can if you want to, don't get me wrong, but it seems like a lot of work. | ||
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TheGiz
Canada708 Posts
There's one thing that always bugged me in high school religion class (I went to Catholic schools because the public school system is crap), which is that they teach that the Bible can be lenient in its truth. I think this steers more people away than it helps. I personally think that many of the stories could be true because if it's God than he can make all kinds of awesome stuff happen. Take for example the Red Sea crossing: + Show Spoiler [Soft Version] + The Egyptian chariots were bogged down in the mud while crossing a marsh near the Red Sea, as a result the Israelites got away. + Show Spoiler [Awesome Version] + The Egyptians pursued the Israelites into the gap in the Red Sea created by Moses, and once all the Israelites were out the water came crashing down and drowned the Egyptians. As a result Ramses gave up pursuit. This second version is fucking awesome, and I really believe it happened. Same goes for the plagues. How else can you shake up a Pharaoh who believes he is a divine being but by pwning him with the works of your own god? I mean, people are free to believe what they want to believe, but these beliefs solidify my faith, not detract from it. I will never doubt my belief in God, even if I sin a lot (and I do). | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 22 2011 21:24 tnkted wrote: Also, before I get into this, I think you guys should really give human centipede some credit, even if you disagree with him. He has been nothing if not polite. You'll notice how he capitalizes Him when he's talking about Jesus? That's an act of extreme respect from an athiest, although it might not seem like it. Capitalizing the pronouns (from my perspective anyway) is entirely unneccessary since I don't believe Jesus was any more special than, say, Ghandi, and we don't capitalize Ghandi's pronouns. So even if you disagree with HC, give him some credit for showing you some respect. I understand that this discussion is taking place furtively at the point of a gun (mods = gods) but that doesn't mean you can't show him a little respect. On June 22 2011 14:01 Human Centipede wrote: And finally - I found these sort of debates very helpful when I was in my phase of transitioning between Christianity and atheism. The longer we prolong "let's agree to disagree" by claiming that issues such as whether or not prayer is real should be left to each person to decide, the longer ignorance on the matter prevails. Under absolute truth (as opposed to moral relativism), only one answer can be correct. Having these debates may not be useful to you, whether it's because you are too stubborn to accept that Christianity is wrong, or whether you just can't be assed defending the proposition that prayer works and helps people, but it may be beneficial for those reading our debate, such as myself when I was younger and surfing Christian apologetics forums and the debates between Christians and atheists. ????????? Polite.... Really.....um... sure... respect? what. Not really sure how saying that I'm "too stubborn to accept that Christianity is wrong" is really respectful or anything. | ||
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zZygote
Canada898 Posts
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
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bode927
United States164 Posts
As far as God existing... How can something come from nothing? There had to be a beginning to material existence right? There had to be something that existed before time or space ever did, otherwise, who or what started it? Anything that has a beginning needs a cause. The Universe has a beginning. Therefore, the universe has a cause. On an atheist's view, we exist for no ULTIMATE point or purpose as far as the universe is concerned. That does not fit with how the universe was created. As for Christianity, the best way to defend belief in that is through evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as covered in the 4 Gospels, matthew, mark, luke, john. Now, I'm pretty sure you'll say that for one, the Gospels aren't reliable documents, and even if there was a man named Jesus, it doesn't mean that he is God. Here is my case for the legitimacy and accuracy of the Gospels (matthew, mark, luke, john) 1. The Gospels provide internal evidence that the writers themselves were either eyewitnesses of the events or interviewers of eyewitnesses. 2.The Gospels are full of irrelevant details that have no needed meaning for the story of Jesus. There are places all over where it says things like "early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark"... now if these books were written just as stories, and not eyewitness accounts, why would they include this type of information? 3. The Gospels are full of self-destructive details. Such as when they all write that the empty tomb was first discovered by a woman. In that time, a woman was not considered a credible source... So if they were making this up, and they wanted their information to be credible, why would they all make the first eyewitness to the empty tomb a woman? 4. Mostly, the Gospels give the same basic account of Jesus' life. If they were written individually, where did the consistency come from? However, they also contain minor discrepancies, displaying evidence that they were not all written from the same original writing. 5. The Gospels just are not written in a literary format that would be considered as a legendary writing format. Writers in this day did not often write fiction in this way. It was not until much later that that particular writing style was invented. 6. What motives would these writers have for making up stories about Jesus? They died painful deaths for what they wrote and believed in. Why would they die for a lie? 7.There are many archaeological findings to corroborate what the Gospels have written. There have been no archaeological findings that contradict conclusively what the Gospels have written. So you see, it looks to me like the Gospels are reliable as historic documents. They record very clearly a man named Jesus, who claimed to be, and did acts to show that he was God. Secondly, Jesus claimed to be God. The best way to provide evidence that he is God is to put out a case for the legitimacy of his resurrection. Because if it is true that Jesus rose from the dead, I think it is hard to argue that he is not who he says he was (God). 1. Jesus died by crucifixion. This is confirmed in all 4 Gospels, and also at many other points in the Bible. 2. Jesus' disciples believed that he rose and appeared to him. Again, confirmed by all 4 Gospels, the disciples saw the raised Jesus. Before the resurrection, they were very depressed and unhappy, but somehow, they became leaders of the largest faith movement in the world that still exists today. What prompted this change of heart? 3. Paul (aka Saul) becomes a Christian. In the book of acts, paul is one of Chrisianity's biggest prosecuters. He helped track down and stone many Christians. But after the sight of the resurrected Jesus, he became a strong believer. He actually wrote many of the books of the bible. 4.James (Jesus' half-brother) was a hardcore skeptic of Jesus before the resurrection. Think about it, if your brother told you that he was God, what would it take for you to believe him. I think him dying and then resurrecting and appearing to you would do the trick. 5. Jesus' tomb was empty. This is confirmed by the fact that the Jews claimed that the disciples stole the body. Why would they claim that if the tomb wasn't empty in the first place? Next, what ground does anyone have for deeming anything right or wrong if there is no eternal, timeless, spaceless, all knowing standard to base it on? Without that standard, isn't right and wrong just subjective? And if that's the case then do you believe that something like child rape is only subjectively wrong rather than objectively wrong? Lastly, I'll just share a bit about myself with you. I was raised catholic, but never really believed in God. When I was 15 I walked away from church. I deemed it something that was stupid and outdated, and filled with ignorant people. When I was 22 a girl I liked invited me to church. I hated the idea but I wanted to please her so I went. Since then it's been about 18 months. My life has changed drastically for the better, and i feel that I have gained a significant point and purpose to my life that is impossible without God. I am so much happier in my everyday life. You can try to argue cosmology, philosophy, evolution, whatever... but you can't argue with the evidence of a changed life. | ||
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PanN
United States2828 Posts
Also, it's really impossible to argue with evolution as it's a fact. I'm glad you found happiness in your life with religion, didn't work for me. I was christian till I was 18, planned on becoming a pastor for a lutheran church I attended for a long time. And since I always felt comfortable with being Christian, I didn't challenge it. Eventually when I did choose to, It was terrifying. But I'm glad I did. I just couldn't continue to lie to my self anymore when everything wasn't adding up, I felt mentally insane cherry picking everything I liked from a book, yet ignoring all the awful things. I'm doing a lot better now. | ||
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bonifaceviii
Canada2890 Posts
Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself. You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here. | ||
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP. Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself. You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here. He's pretty much right. Faith is just that: faith. If you can bring yourself to accept the word of God and believe it, you have your faith in Him. If you can't, you can't. And people across the spectrum of opinions about religion on a forum aren't going to help you retain or abandon your faith, only you can. Take some time to figure things out for yourself, because if you are or aren't believing in God because of what someone else says, it's not really your belief. There's nothing wrong with asking God for help in prayer. I asked Him for help when I doubted my faith and He came. If you're genuine, I believe he'll answer you too. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP. Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself. You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here. Imma quote from the Bible about this part Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." John ch 20 verse 18 This is what faith is. Believing without physical proof (eyes/whatever), essentially. | ||
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UdderChaos
United Kingdom707 Posts
Really look at your motivations for challenging your beliefs, are things in your life (ie peer pressure, loosing a loved one) just causing you to re-think or are they actually motivating or pushing you into choosing not to believe? Are you just believing becuase you want to?(this is not good by the way) Are you just fed up trying to live life as a Christian and actually you just want the easy way out? You need to answer those questions first. I really dont advise in this delicate a mind state to read one piece of pro-atheist literature considering your vulnerable and then loose all faith, like a lot of young teen-agers brought up Christian do. If your going to read external literature to help you, make sure you read from both sides, ie both the god delusion and the dawkin delusion, read some of CS Lewis's stuff, john lennox's talks as well as sam harris's stuff, William Lane Craig's stuff as well as Carl Sagan ect. And set yourself a a mindset where you'll promise not to think/dwell on it too much until you've read both sides, so the same goes for pro-Christian stuff too, don't read one book and then decide your back on track. Just be vigilant and objective is basically what I'm saying, really examine whats what and make sure you make the right choice and that you really are approaching it with an open mind, and don't let external other factors sway you in any particular direction. | ||
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plbro81
117 Posts
On June 23 2011 06:43 dudeman001 wrote: He's pretty much right. Faith is just that: faith. If you can bring yourself to accept the word of God and believe it, you have your faith in Him. If you can't, you can't. And people across the spectrum of opinions about religion on a forum aren't going to help you retain or abandon your faith, only you can. Take some time to figure things out for yourself, because if you are or aren't believing in God because of what someone else says, it's not really your belief. There's nothing wrong with asking God for help in prayer. I asked Him for help when I doubted my faith and He came. If you're genuine, I believe he'll answer you too. Hey what do you mean when he answered your prayer? I have prayed many times but never "felt anything." What was it like having God answer your prayer? | ||
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plbro81
117 Posts
On June 23 2011 06:33 bonifaceviii wrote: Listen, OP. Faith is believing in something for no other reason than you know it's right, no matter what evidence is presented in front of you. If you're questioning your faith, you don't actually have faith because faith doesn't question itself, it only justifies itself. You've already lost it, this thread is seeing if you can find it again. Maybe you will, maybe you won't, but let's not beat around the bush here. Yeah you're right. I guess I still say I have faith because I haven't fully rejected it yet. I'm still clinging to it despite all the doubts. I should probably talk to a pastor but I don't know anyone I would trust to talk to (I go to a Korean church and they don't speak English too well). | ||
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plbro81
117 Posts
On June 22 2011 08:33 Human Centipede wrote: Just a general question to the OP - do you watch porn? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/6709646/All-men-watch-porn-scientists-find.html Edit: Actually, just as a general question to all the Christians (including the fundamentalist apologetic who believes the Earth was created in six days) - do you watch porn? If so, how do you reconcile it with your faith? I hate to admit this, but yes I watch porn. Its not something I'm proud of, and it's not something I think God would tolerate. When I had more faith, I would always try to quit porn, but would eventually watch it again after weeks. I would always feel dirty after watching it. What worries me is now I'm kinda numb to it (could be because of weak/no faith). | ||
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blankspace
United States292 Posts
Suppose you take the same person A who grew up in a Christian family and believes in something because he just "knows it." With the same type of personality, suppose A grew up in a buddhist family. Likely, he could have the same type of "faith without sight." I think the islamic suicide bombers (and I am not saying they are the same as most christians here) had extreme faith without sufficient "sight" to the point of throwing their lives away. Yet the Christians would say that their "faith without sight" is correct. If Jesus says in the bible that those who believe without sight are blessed, and another religion says a similar thing, on what grounds do you have to claim that your intuition is better? Churches and religions vary a lot on the people involved and other circumstances. I know from experience that Christianity can promote good deeds and moral behavior, it can support those who are sick and comfort people emotionally. If this is the case, why should one bother looking for validation outside of the inner "feelings, intuition, or just knowing it." Why care about experimental verification or logic? Because those who place emotion over reason are easily swayed and abused by demagogues or madmen. For example, in cults, people will place complete faith in their leaders without good justification. This turns out badly for them, especially when they give away their money. Or all those people who thought the end of the world was coming and had faith in their pastor. In the end, they just got more screwed over. Science has the advantage of being grounded in rigorous experiment. Of course science cannot prove or explain everything, it cannot even prove that science works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction). However, for some reason, scientific and mathematical theory, when correctly stated even in approximate forms (newton's laws vs relativity for example), have yielded powerful and consistent results. Although the mathematics of the greeks has been expanded on, it's power remains the same since it was conceived thousands of years ago. The same cannot be said for religions, which die out, morph, and change drastically with the times. Moreover, they lack the experimental consistency of science. If a religious man, by uttering words, could change water into wine or levitate, people may believe that religion provides a connection to something greater and miraculous. However, instead we have mostly emotional, psychological, or anecdotal evidence. The great miracles of the bible have happened so long ago that their truth is highly questionable. The Catholic Church records, as the centuries passed, that miracles were becoming more and more scarce until nowadays it hardly recognizes any. Perhaps the explanation is this: as anecdotes became checked more thoroughly, science progressed, and records more carefully preserved, there was less room for the ancient myths to bloom. | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
On June 23 2011 09:14 plbro81 wrote: Hey what do you mean when he answered your prayer? I have prayed many times but never "felt anything." What was it like having God answer your prayer? I feel compelled to respond, even though the question isn't directed at me personally. Most the time I don't even realize it's been answered, but there are several instances that stick out: 1). When I was a freshman in college I lived with an atheist roommate. Luckily he wasn't a jaded, closed off atheist, but a very open guy. We were able to talk in detail about our beliefs on several occasions, but respected each other enough not to impress our beliefs on the other person. One day at lunch he asked me to define the Holy Spirit. I had a brief moment of panic because I didn't have an "on-the-spot" definition. 7 years of parochial schools and I can't snap to it right away?! Pathetic. I postured as if I was thinking and said a quick prayer that I could define it. And then I gave him a brief response. It couldn't have been more than a few sentences. I can't honestly tell you what I said - it's like I was on auto-pilot. I remember clearly his response - "That makes perfect sense". 2). My second year of college my first girlfriend sighed very heavily and told me that she wanted to say something to me, but wanted to hear it from me first. I knew exactly what she was talking about, and honestly, the idea took me by surprise. So I prayed. I prayed for guidance. At that moment I didn't feel scared or speechless anymore. I felt calm, and at peace. That was good enough for me. And then I told her I loved her. 3). I worked as an RA for three years and on more than one occasion I had a resident in my room dealing with a major issue. Sometimes it was a breakup, sometimes it was family troubles, and sometimes it was stress. One time it was a suicide risk. Almost every time I'd be put on the spot unsure of what to do or say to make them feel better. I would pray for guidance every time, and every time they would leave my room feeling better, even if it was only a little bit. In the case of the suicide risk I made the call to have her picked up by the police/hospital before she could do anything to herself. In all cases I firmly believe I was acting with wisdom that was not my own enabled by the simple gesture of asking for it. 4). 2009-2010 was my last year of undergrad. I had no clue what I wanted to do with my life. One of my summer projects in 2009 was folding 1000 paper cranes - something I'd wanted to do for 10 years. The Japanese legend surrounding this number states that you get a wish upon completing 1000. One night, about 5 weeks after I started I finished the last crane. When I finished I prayed. I prayed that I may understand the next step in my life. This was in the middle of July. The only thing I knew for certain was that I was interested, but not sold, on the idea of grad school. In November I went to a conference that sold me. In January I put in all my applications. In February I got one acceptance. That same school offered to fly me (1000 miles away) for a tour. I was completely sold, but I needed a lot of money to move all that way. In mid-April I was called in the middle of lunch and basically offered a job as an engineering internship. Anyone who's looked for work like this during a recession will tell you that opportunities like this don't JUST happen. Not only was my path revealed and affirmed, but the means of making it literally fell into my lap. My prayers were answered and as a result of these "random" occurrences I'm convinced that my being here is no accident. 5). After a 10 month absence I went to church with a friend. The church calls themselves "Spirit-filled" and it is every bit pentecostal that I thought it would be. I never thought I'd find myself in a place like that. And I never thought I'd be enjoying it. I can dispel a lot of myths surrounding people who speak in tongues, sing worship songs with their arms held wide, and saying "Amen" and "That's Right" very openly during the sermon, but I can also affirm that it is very much real. I have a tendency to feel very self-conscious around them since all the things I've mentioned have never happened. And for reference - I have prayed to experience the filling of Spirit that they experience and it hasn't happened. I've mentioned before that I went through a heavy doubt period this winter and this church helped pull me out. Early on I started reading the Bible every night. On one of the first nights I asked to have an experience - any experience. Then I tried to go to sleep. Within five minutes my legs were restless and I felt an incredible urge to get up. So I did. I walked out near my computer and stood there. I was pretty scared since it was the middle of the night and I was standing there in the dark. My Bible was sitting next to my computer, so I grabbed it and brought it to bed with me. I felt another random urge and opened it, took my book mark from another page, and marked where I had opened it. Then all the restlessness left and I fell asleep pretty easily. When I woke up I was curious what I marked, since I never turned on a light. It was in 1 Kings. The first thing that caught my eye were the subheadings. On the left side is "Preparation for Building the Temple" and the right side "Solomon Builds the Temple". My prayer was answered. I had a strange experience and it gave me comfort. I shouldn't be intimidated by those with greater faith because my "temple" is still being built. So those are my examples. Just so we're clear, the OP made the response and I'm responding to it. If the atheists and other nonreligious folk would like to debate the merits of my claims please do it via PM so the topic doesn't jump tangents - this is the OP's show, after all. To the OP himself - please don't let this intimidate you. You are merely a work in progress yourself  | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On June 23 2011 10:48 blankspace wrote: Ok guys who say "faith without sight" (which I know very well, I grew up in the church) Suppose you take the same person A who grew up in a Christian family and believes in something because he just "knows it." With the same type of personality, suppose A grew up in a buddhist family. Likely, he could have the same type of "faith without sight." I think the islamic suicide bombers (and I am not saying they are the same as most christians here) had extreme faith without sufficient "sight" to the point of throwing their lives away. Yet the Christians would say that their "faith without sight" is correct. If Jesus says in the bible that those who believe without sight are blessed, and another religion says a similar thing, on what grounds do you have to claim that your intuition is better? All I was bringing up by "faith without sight" is that that's what faith essentially is, believing without seeing, I wasn't providing ANY commentary about the differences between religions at all. | ||
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