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Oh boy, a religion thread <_<
Remember to keep discussion civil. I'll be monitoring this heavily - empyrean. |
I was raised with a pretty hardcore faith upbringing, was forced to go to Christian school and church every Sunday. I went through some really heavy indoctrination especially through the school. By the time I was 18 I started getting really into it and volunteering at the church, and I even wanted to become a pastor. Eventually though I started really thinking about things, which I will actually credit towards plenty time spent living alone and smoking weed, even though I had a strong faith I always had a desire to find the truth so I would question things.
My first biggest problem was with wondering how the books of the Bible were chosen and who got to choose them, I never really found a "good" answer to this, I started questioning more and more while at the same time learning about other philosophies and science which are things my school taught me but with an extreme bias - I realized how different it can be when you learn the other side of the story without hearing it from someone who is trying to make it sound stupid. Finally I got to the point that I realized I wasn't sure of anything regarding my faith, it all seemed very skeptical, and it was only fear of going to hell that was the last thread holding me to it. When I realized that, I gave it up immediately, and never before had I felt so relieved. Ever since I was a small child it was always based on fear.
Telling people they'll go to hell seems rather silly as a rational adult, but it is scary as shit to a little kid, when everyone you know is telling you that.
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Go find the apocrypha, read them, and wonder why they were excluded from the bible as we currently know it. I was never able to figure out a reason, maybe you might.
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If you're reading the Bible and all of it's entirety literally, you're missing the point. Every story has a lesson to teach, that's how the Bible gets its messages across. I believe absolutely in God, but I have my doubts over the story of Noah, or the tower of Babylon, etc etc. All you need from the Bible is to understand what God wants to teach us, which is to be a better and more loving person.
Remember, no matter who you become, no matter what you do, God will still love you. His love isn't like ours, that it can fade through time. He'll love you now and forever. Live your life happily and you'll start to appreciate all the things in the world that're here because of God. Keep being that good person that you are. Don't preoccupy your mind worrying about losing your morality. If you sin, well then you sin. But God still loves you. Just try and mimic that love. You'll find life to be much more beautiful if you can open your heart to everything.
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I've only scanned a few responses, much like Milkis, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating things, too.
To start - I am a Christian and I went through a phase of heavily doubting my faith this winter. Doubts still crop up, so I know what you're talking about. I think you're going to get out of this post what you want to get out of it, so I'll give my perspective and be on my way.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
I know a lot of people here do not believe in God, so if so, I don't need any derogatory responses about Christianity. Hopefully some Christians and non-Christians can help me out here.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised you're asking TL this question, but seeing the responses I'm glad that the militant Christians and atheists have had a good discussion. Way to go, TL!
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
So anyway, I've been struggling with my faith lately. I was a Christian since I was born, but lately I've been questioning Christianity more and more (especially since I'm in college now). I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
Those were the days, huh? In fact, there are several Gospel verses giving a lot of credit to children and the faith of a child. Obviously the faith of your childhood is gone, but that happens to everyone. Having the faith of a child doesn't mean you just accept things as they are, but that you receive direction and learn as a child would. As adults we decide what we want to do and do it. When we were young are parents decided it for us. In the same way, our Father disciplines our faith.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
Since you've read the Bible you know that the New Testament is a lot more literal than the Old, so I'll focus on the Old here. The Old Testament has a lot of "out-there" and "imaginative" stories. You're going to find people out there who believe them word-for-word and others trying to understand what, exactly, they mean. You're going to find people that believe them verbatim, and you'll find people that look for the meaning behind the message. I was educated in a Catholic high school and we delved into this topic in our theology class on numerous occasions. Men may have been 800 years old by our standards, 800 years old from past time measurements, or just "really old" with Hebrew numeric symbolism embellishing the details. Goliath and the Philistines could have been a race of giants, or they could have been a lot of people possessing great military power. That's not to say all the Old Testament stories are like this, but if it is all you're focusing on then you're missing the big picture. The Old Testament starts with God's covenant to Abraham and later Moses, the Jews, David, and others. It gives a set of laws, punishments, and means of forgiveness. It gives a rough military history and line of kings. Most important are the prophesies of this mysterious person who is good enough to actually uphold the really strict covenant laid out in the Pentateuch, but there are so many seemingly impossible characteristics they need to uphold that such a person couldn't possibly exist. I look at that and believe how wonderful it is that God set all these impossible standards and then fulfilled them Himself!
The rest of your questions are hard to answer since they're all questions of personal faith. But I will agree that it is not easy to believe all this.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Things like "moral degredation" and slipping from Biblical standards DO feel bad. In a society where you're only limited by the limitations you place on yourself you get the feeling that you're missing out on "living life to the fullest". And what exactly does that mean? Are you looking for an excuse to throw all caution to the wind? You can abuse substances, have lots of sex, cuss up a storm, and just experience ANYTHING that comes your way without thinking twice. Will that REALLY bring you happiness? You can try, but I can tell you from personal experience that it didn't work out that way for me. But that doesn't mean we can't "live life to the fullest", it just means our definition of "fullest" isn't the more worldly definition. Christians are called to live in the world and not of the world. In that respect there is a degree of sacrifice. I can also tell you from personal experience that the doubt only gets worse when you constantly throw that caution to the wind since you're juxtaposing your ideals.
I've been through this and I'm hard-pressed to think of any Christian over the age of 25 who hasn't been through a period like this. All faith is tested. If you "really want to believe in God" then take additional steps. Talk to pastors and clergymen. Talk to church-goers. Talk to parents. Talk to someone who knows what you're going through and who you feel comfortable with. It's these people who helped me through the worst of my doubt. The walk of faith is a hard road and you won't get through it without support.
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I'm a hardcore atheist, but I do think there are good reasons why someone would choose to believe in god. We're all human beings, and human beings are driven by emotions. Anyone, no matter how skeptic, are only motivated to move, breathe and eat. Because our emotions tells us to. Physiologically, emotions are just chemicals, but we need emotions to survive.
But emotions are different for each individual. Each one have different genes and react differently to different chemicals. So each one needs different emotions to survive. Some of us do just fine knowing there's no god. Other's need to believe in god to be able to hold themselves every day.
Bottomline. You need to find if you really need to believe in god or not. If you're the type of person who would be ok with no god. Then just believe there's no god. But if you find that you need to believe in god to keep motivated each day. Then just believe in god and be happy. Can you live with yourself knowing that once you die, you just get eaten by worms and your conscience just disappears? Are you ok knowing that there's no superior definition of morals, no good vs evil, and all that you think is wrong and dislike actually might be good for someone else?
First ask yourself these questions. Find if you really need god to live. If you do, then believe in god and be happy. If you don't, then don't believe in god and be happy. Pretty simple.
Personally. My main motivation to live each day, is knowing that I can use my labor to help build a better world. And that after I'm dead, the world will be a better place because I was here. Knowing that I helped humanity progress after I'm dead, gives me motivation to actually try to make that happen with all my powers. I don't need to believe god is sending me to heaven if I'm a good boy. I can find my own motivation to do good and keep living without needing to believe in god. So I don't believe in god. But if you need to believe, I find that's understandable, just do what you need to keep happy.
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If you believe you will know.
If you don't believe you will also know.
I had the same decision. I chose to live and love my life. To do the things that made me happy, without feeling guilty or condemned.
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On June 21 2011 19:15 Human Centipede wrote:
A really good movie on this if you're interested actually, is The Human Centipede. You should get it out from your video store, as I think it'll help you with what you're going through.
I can't believe you snuck that in there.
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On June 21 2011 21:10 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life. Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew?
I celebrate and accept both religions as my own.
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On June 22 2011 05:16 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 21:10 Cubu wrote:On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life. Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew? I celebrate and accept both religions as my own.
Why bother? If you're one of the chosen you don't need to be Catholic.
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On June 22 2011 05:21 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 21 2011 21:10 Cubu wrote:On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life. Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew? I celebrate and accept both religions as my own. Why bother? If you're one of the chosen you don't need to be Catholic.
huh?
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On June 22 2011 05:22 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 05:21 bonifaceviii wrote:On June 22 2011 05:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 21 2011 21:10 Cubu wrote:On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life. Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew? I celebrate and accept both religions as my own. Why bother? If you're one of the chosen you don't need to be Catholic. huh?
He's referring to this about Judaism: "In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews are the Chosen People, chosen to be in a covenant with God"
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I'm now a committed atheist, and you sound pretty much exactly how I did when I was ~15 years old. I basically agree with all of the points you brought up in your OP, and it's part of why I became an atheist. Here are a few scattered thoughts of mine that you may want to consider.
At this point, it looks to me like you're probably going to at least slip into a more liberal brand of Christianity where you believe more of the stuff is just a "metaphor" or whatever. I find this belief to be harmless and I suppose it technically makes sense, but it is really still quite irrational imo. Liberal Christianity generally involves people just cherrypicking the bits from the Bible that they like, and labeling the rest as a "metaphor."
I really don't understand the point of this. If you're doing this, then you obvious have your own idea of what right and wrong is and how you should live your life. In this case, why do you need to pick passages out of some book to justify it? Isn't your own sense of reason enough? How are you going to "it's a metaphor" away the passages in the Bible condoning slavery, racism, homophobia, and genocide? Perhaps most importantly, does your personal and biased sense of right and wrong have anything to do with what passages in the Bible are literally true? It just requires so many rationalizations and cherry-picking that I find it much more sensible to just write it all off as bunk, written by flawed people who were just trying to find some justification for what they perceived as being right and good.
Another thing to think about is why do you say that you "want" to believe in God? Personally, I want to believe in what's true - if you have an emotional inclination toward one answer over another, I would say that you should ask yourself why. Is it because being a Christian is your comfort zone? Is it because you like the idea of an afterlife? Is it because you feel like being a Christian is the morally right thing to do? All of these are biases that have nothing to do with what's actually true, and you should try to get rid of them if you are really seeking truth. The more you "want" one side or another to be true, the less likely it is that you are going to be logical in your thinking instead of using fallacies and cognitive dissonance to justify your preferred stance.
I could write a lot more on this subject, but I think it would overlap a lot with what people have already said. I hope you find a position in this topic which makes you happy, and which doesn't involve any offensive beliefs about gay-hating or eternal Hell etc.
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Have you tried to pray and ask if there is a god?
James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
The lord will answer you if you ask with faith.
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On June 22 2011 08:02 MaxField wrote:Have you tried to pray and ask if there is a god? James 1:5 Show nested quote +If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. The lord will answer you if you ask with faith.
Actually the most likely outcome is that nothing is going to happen, but a Christian will probably attribute silence and nothingness to a supernatural feeling described along the lines of God touched my heart in that moment and I realised that although He doesn't always answer in an audible way blah blah blah.
Reminds me of this:
Why is it that God doesn’t answer prayers?
It has been said that God always answers prayer. Sometimes He says "yes" sometimes he says "no" and sometimes He says "wait a while" [at statistically the same rate as praying to the moon or your favourite stuffed toy]. Sometimes God will answer a prayer in a different way than we have first anticipated [hey, that’s exactly what happens sometimes when I beg to my stuffed toy]. The fact is, many of us pray for things that God knows would only hinder our walk with Him [like say, a cure for cancer] so for our own good He withholds them from us. When we are first born into God’s kingdom we generally get our prayers answered immediately [there’s thousands of studies which prove this] but as we grow God teaches us patience by letting us wait.
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Questioning your faith is a good thing to do, as is examining the Bible in its entirety. As a Christian who has grown up in a Christian background, I can assure you that I've gone through this phase of my life as well. If you have any serious questions about the Bible, don't let it sit in your mind or try to give your own interpretation of it, try to ask other Christians/you pastor.
Also, you have to examine yourself. You say you are a good person, but have you ever thought about why you do those things? Doing good things out of sheer willpower alone, I don't think anyone has that ability to do good things constantly day after day. I'm convinced that people who do good things out of sheer willpower alone experience some kind of burnout after a while.
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Just two thoughts...
Science/reason and faith are two different things - it's no use trying to apply logic to faith very much (unlike in scientiffic problems).
I see that faith strenghten people.
Those are my observations, (I am an atheist).
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(1) you can believe in God without believing in the literal truth of the bible. That is, you might decide that "Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath" and such are preposterous but still maintain that a higher power exists.
(2) even if there is no God, there still remain plenty of good reasons to be a good person, and to follow many of the ethical codes of conduct prescribed by religions. You may not find a reason to serve God, but you can serve humanity with the same seriousness of purpose.
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One general word when examining various arguments for God: you should see what it says about "God"
For example, an old classic argument still used goes roughly as follows:
1) Everything that exists has a cause for its existence
2) The universe must have had a beginning
3) Therefore the universe must have been "caused" by something, which we call God
Barring all the physical and philosophical problems with this type of argument, let us accept for a moment that it is valid. So we accept that there is a great "causer" called "God." That's all we get. The "God" here is so abstract that we can attribute it no specific qualities from this argument. Therefore, this being may as well have no relevance. It is a great invalid leap of faith to then assume that we can take this "God" and attribute it various qualities, such as seen in the Bible. It's a common mistake to do so simply because we call both "God."
For example, Einstein frequently used "God" in his quotes. Obviously he wasn't referring to a specific God of a religion, he meant in a more abstract sense the "universe" itself.
To clarify more, let's look at the example for physics. Often, the mathematical framework of a physical theory may predict phenomenon not yet discovered. Black holes, various particles are examples. The vast difference between these predicted phenomenon and a predicted God based on some argument, is that while physicists have scientific grounds for attributing specific behavior to the objects they predict (for example, this particle should have this mass), the arguments for God cannot predict how he should behave.
If I say, A exists, but cannot definitively say anything about A, then A might as well not exist.
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On June 22 2011 08:10 Human Centipede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 08:02 MaxField wrote:Have you tried to pray and ask if there is a god? James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. The lord will answer you if you ask with faith. Actually the most likely outcome is that nothing is going to happen, but a Christian will probably attribute silence and nothingness to a supernatural feeling described along the lines of God touched my heart in that moment and I realised that although He doesn't always answer in an audible way blah blah blah. Reminds me of this: Why is it that God doesn’t answer prayers? It has been said that God always answers prayer. Sometimes He says "yes" sometimes he says "no" and sometimes He says "wait a while" [at statistically the same rate as praying to the moon or your favourite stuffed toy]. Sometimes God will answer a prayer in a different way than we have first anticipated [hey, that’s exactly what happens sometimes when I beg to my stuffed toy]. The fact is, many of us pray for things that God knows would only hinder our walk with Him [like say, a cure for cancer] so for our own good He withholds them from us. When we are first born into God’s kingdom we generally get our prayers answered immediately [there’s thousands of studies which prove this] but as we grow God teaches us patience by letting us wait.
There is no reason to mock my post. I am a christian and i have had my prayers answered many times, and if he is doubting, then i believe this is a possible solution to his problem. It is obvious that you do not believe in what i do, but making fun of them adds nothing to this thread.
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EPT
