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Oh boy, a religion thread <_<
Remember to keep discussion civil. I'll be monitoring this heavily - empyrean. |
On June 21 2011 18:34 Azzur wrote:
The next thing to consider is the timing of when Jesus arrived into the world. He didn't go to a random civilization during the dark ages. He came to the Jews at the height of the Classical era. This meant that the Romans had good roads (vital for spreading The Word) and kept good records. There were many eye witness accounts on Jesus' life.
Now, also consider the 3 main monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. If you study the early history of their books, you'll find them quite similar. In fact, both Islam and Judaism acknowledge the existence of Jesus (but as a prophet). Coupled with the fact that the people living in those areas now are still fighting over their right over the land. The story has been passed down from generations to generations and good records are kept.
I find both of these points to be extremely odd arguments in favor of Christianity because they're usually used to debunk it.
There are no eye witness accounts on the life of Jesus. According to the Bible, he was literate, but he never wrote any books, nor did his disciples. The gospels attributed to the apostles were originally untitled and anonymous and only later associated with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; they weren't written contemporaneously with Jesus. Despite the Romans' good record keeping, there isn't a single record of Jesus having ever existed. The best historical references to Jesus are brief mentions of people talking about someone named Christ many decades later.
As to the similarity of Jesus in religion, his story is also very similar to older gods such as Dionysus, Horus, and Mithras. Of course Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are similar: they were founded in the same region. Even Jesus was supposedly a Jew, and the first Christians were all Jews. It's not like Christianity and Islam were founded separately by people with no knowledge of Judaism.
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There's a lot of cynicism surrounding Christianity and the dovetail of losing one's faith and gaining critical thinking skills. I've watched people lose their faith, gain faith, become stronger or weaker in their faith, hop from one side of the fence to the other in indecision, and develop an alternative strain of faith.
I've watched the way people have dealt with these situations; both their own situations and the they way they've dealt with other people in similar circumstances. I've seen people quietly trickle away from the church world, people storm out in a flame of anger, and people hang around making venomous, bitter barbs at appropriate moments.
One of the things that all these scenarios have in common is that the people involved developed a certain level of cynicism and became critical about the church. It's a fairly natural stage: you were heavily involved in a sub-culture, and to move out of it you need to distance yourself and view it in a different light. Cynicism also seems to be a natural stage of the journey from fundamentalist to liberal to whatever comes next.
But after a while, people tone the cynicism down and move on. Mostly they figure the Christian phase was a few years of their life, or their childhood, but it's over. Or if they stay within the church, they figure out a way to do so with the minimum level of cognitive dissonance possible.
I've noticed a correlation between the level of cynicism post-Christianity (or being more vocal about it) and the depth of sincerity that people had when they were still Christians. The more you believed it, the more heavily involved you were, the heavier the toll. It's harder to leave, harder to reconcile your life and choose a new way of thinking without coming across shreds of the older way that tear you up.
In a way it's like the five stages of grief. See the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stages_of_faith_development
Stage 0 – "Primal or Undifferentiated" faith (birth to 2 years), is characterized by an early learning of the safety of their environment (i.e. warm, safe and secure vs. hurt, neglect and abuse). If consistent nurture is experienced, one will develop a sense of trust and safety about the universe and the divine. Conversely, negative experiences will cause one to develop distrust with the universe and the divine. Transition to the next stage begins with integration of thought and languages which facilitates the use of symbols in speech and play.
Stage 1 – "Intuitive-Projective" faith (ages of three to seven), is characterized by the psyche's unprotected exposure to the Unconscious.
Stage 2 – "Mythic-Literal" faith (mostly in school children), stage two persons have a strong belief in the justice and reciprocity of the universe, and their deities are almost always anthropomorphic.
Stage 3 – "Synthetic-Conventional" faith (arising in adolescence) characterized by conformity
Stage 4 – "Individuative-Reflective" faith (usually mid-twenties to late thirties) a stage of angst and struggle. The individual takes personal responsibility for his or her beliefs and feelings.
Stage 5 – "Conjunctive" faith (mid-life crisis) acknowledges paradox and transcendence relating reality behind the symbols of inherited systems
Stage 6 – "Universalizing" faith, or what some might call "enlightenment".
A really good movie on this if you're interested actually, is The Human Centipede. You should get it out from your video store, as I think it'll help you with what you're going through.
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On June 21 2011 18:34 Azzur wrote:
Hi man, I feel for you because what you're going through is a very testing period of your life. I hope that you will emerge from it a stronger person!
I'm a Christian apologist, which means that I try and reconcile science and faith. I believe in everything mentioned in the Bible - from creation in 7 days, Noah's Ark and Jesus.
One of the more controversial topics is of course creation. If creation is interpreted literally, not only is the universe made in 7 days, but that means that the Earth is under 10,000 years old (as opposed to the scientifically accepted 4b years). I get this 10,000 years because the complete genealogy from Jesus to Adam is written in the first chapter of Matthew. Then, when you add up all the years that those men lived, you get around 6,000 years.
The reason I can reconcile these differences is because of the understanding of "time". Many people will say that the Bible is paraphrasing, and that when it says 7 days, it is 7 "figurative" days. However, I don't accept that. Modern science has shown that time is completely different from what the layman understands (Einstein's Theory of Relativity).
Also, I believe that we are on the cusp of broadening our understanding of the universe. Einstein's theory is now breaking down when applied on the quantum level. It is possible that in our lifetime, a new theory will supersede it.
The next thing to consider is the timing of when Jesus arrived into the world. He didn't go to a random civilization during the dark ages. He came to the Jews at the height of the Classical era. This meant that the Romans had good roads (vital for spreading The Word) and kept good records. There were many eye witness accounts on Jesus' life.
Now, also consider the 3 main monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. If you study the early history of their books, you'll find them quite similar. In fact, both Islam and Judaism acknowledge the existence of Jesus (but as a prophet). Coupled with the fact that the people living in those areas now are still fighting over their right over the land. The story has been passed down from generations to generations and good records are kept.
Having all this knowledge is all well and good. But the main thing - faith and love is the most important. I guess having that knowledge is what sustains me during difficult times.
Thankfully it was apologetics that helped me shift my thinking from being a Christian to becoming an atheist. It took several years. Charles Colson (look him up on Wikipedia) did a radio show on Focus on the Family (run by James Dobson) encouraging people to question their faith and look for the evidence in an attempt to 'arm' Christians with the necessary debating skills to argue with atheists such as Dawkins. I am grateful for that programme for setting me on that journey, even though the destination I came to was not the one he would have hoped.
Edit: A great place to start is a series of apologetic writings called the New Perspective on Paul - at least that's where I was able to start to see Christianity in a more critical light (and then eventually for the ridiculousness that it is).
+ Show Spoiler +When I first began theological studies from a conservative Protestant background, I quickly found a universally accepted truth was that salvation was "by faith alone", it was "by grace" and that it was our duty to "rest" on "Christ's finished work". It was considered important to realize that we could "add nothing" to "Christ's atoning work". It was important that we didn't try to "save ourselves" by "human effort". It was extremely important not to add the least bit of "works" to salvation, otherwise you'd be like those (heretical) Roman Catholics and teach (evil) "Works Based Salvation".
Paul's writings about "by grace through faith not works" were considered "irrefutable proof" of this view. Anyone who said anything different was being "unbiblical" and "straying" from the Bible's teachings. Salvation by "human effort" was how "human religions" worked, and all humans who are "in the flesh" inherently by their psychology wanted to try to save themselves, whereas the fact that Christianity relied on God alone for salvation separated it from other religions and caused it to be "nonsense" and "foolishness" to the "natural man". I found that in some quarters there was even worry that our very belief in and acceptance of Christ's finished work for us might be considered something we do, as a work based on human effort that saves us. Thus, some thought that we ought to think of even our faith in Christ's finished atoning work as something given graciously to us by God.
However, now that I've learned a bit more than I once knew about both Pauline theology and the Church Fathers, it is with amusement that I look back on such ideas and claims.
Advances in biblical scholarship in the last thirty years have well and truly refuted the "irrefutable evidence" of Paul's grace, faith and works language... Ironically it turned out that grace didn't mean grace, faith didn't mean faith, and works didn't mean works. The New Perspective on Paul has thus cast Paul's writings in quite a different light to the ideas above. Far from being the apostle who rejects the value of human effort, it in fact turns out that not once in any of his writings does Paul reject or deny the value or saving value of human effort to avail before God, and in fact he regularly affirms it.
Studying the early Church Fathers has been no less interesting. I find it reasonable to assume (contrary to some Protestants) that Christianity didn't suddenly disappear out of the world the moment that the New Testament was completed, and that post-NT Christian writings accurately depict the major doctrines of early Christianity. There's a quote by Clement of Alexandria (~200AD) that succinctly summarizes what appears to have been universal early Christian doctrine: "God desires us to be saved by our own efforts." (Stromata 6.12.96) As is attested in the numerous writings we have from the second century church, Christianity worldwide was a religion of "works based salvation".
It was with great amusement then, and also a little frustration and sadness that I recently read this article which made all the claims I had originally been taught as a conservative protestant about how the true gospel is about us trying to cease from human effort and rely on God's salvation. In the article he writes: "We do not need a better set of how to's, or a better teacher, or a better therapist." Which brought to my mind all the early Christian writings which boasted about Christianity providing precisely these three things. It is really quite amazing, when I reflect on it, that Christianity has come in such a full circle that this writer, in the belief that he is proclaiming the true Christian gospel can be attacking the very essence of original Christianity.
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Hey there.
As a Christian myself, I can tell you straight out that its completely normal to doubt.
I, too, am in University, grew up knowing about the Bible and God, but only truely became a Christian in the complete sense about 3 years ago.
It was also how so many of my peers and friends at church came to be.
Anyways, I'll try keeping this short, so others don't try to bash my beliefs too much.
First of all, let me just say that God does 'not' have grandchildren. You can not inherit the title of a christian from your parents, because to be a Christian you have more than just believe it, as you're taught in Sunday School. Each individual person must make a consciencious and willing decision to call themselves a Christian.
There is no God, the grandfather.
To doubt means that you have begun to search for the Reason for God (Also a great book title by Timothy Keller, which helped me change the life of one of my closest friends).
To your first question: What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect?
Religion, as put by some, is justifying yourself through faith. It is the idea that through your faith you can present yourself as a moral human being and thus, not a sinner.
Christianity however, is the core belief that everything we do, no matter how good we look compared to everyone else falls miserably short of God's standards. It was so bad that it took divine intervention in the form of Jesus Christ.
At this point you may question the existance of Jesus. Did he even exist? Did he perform breathtaking miracles? Was he crucified? Did he rise from the dead?
Let me tell you then, among even aethist researchers and those of other religions that there are 3 main points that they all agree on.
1. Jesus of Nazareth existed. As a historical source, the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments) is considered First Hand evidence simply because the Gospels were written between 10 and 40ish years after the death of Jesus, by those who were there. Numerous other sources about Jesus also exist, but I won't go into them here.
2. Jesus changed lives. No one ever doubted the fact that Jesus's teachings managed to change the lives of many people back in the Roman Era and in the present day. Case Study: John Newton, the composer of Amazing Grace. Formerly a slaver, deserter and slanderer.
3. That Jesus died on the Cross, via crucifixion, for the crime of Blasphemy against God almighty. Verified by more sources than just the bible.
4. That on the third day, the tomb was empty. Not that Jesus was risen, specifically, but that it was empty. Jews and Aethists main arguement was that the disciples stole the body. ie, managed to get past a guard (In the original Greek a guard is more like a squad) and steal the body, when they disowned Jesus at his trial (Matthew 27: 62-66).
The most important thing to understand about Jesus is that God is Just. He will not abide by sin, but loves his creation. So before he can offer salvation he must first judge and condem. To purify the world he has to clear sin. but back to the idea of Just, it can't just be removed without consequence. It can only be transfered to someone else and it can't be on anybody with sin, because no person in God's eyes was without, and thus already deserved God's Wrath. For us to be saved, someone else has to suffer.
Thats the reason for Jesus. He was the "Passover Lamb", Exodus, so that 'we' won't suffer the wrath of God.
However, salvation doesn't mean anything if Jesus didn't rise from the dead. Jesus rising from the dead signifies the eternal life that God promised (The death of Death in the death of Christ).
As a result, that is why as Christians, we try to uphold God's moral standard. Its not so much a commandment in the present Era, as a sign of respect, for Jesus. Jesus suffered Hell, literally, for us and we show our thanks by living as his people.
Again, I can't emphasis enough how normal the phase you're going through is. I aplaud your sense of morals and your holding onto them while doubting.
However I must addmit, I don't know much about getting past the phase.
My own story is that I always hated the inflexibilty of the few churches that I went to, and the lack of children/people my age. I started to question and was eventually invited to a Christian youth camp with people my age (hundredreds of them per weekend, over 3 weekends - virtually booked out) and the big selling point honestly for me, was Contemporary Christian Music that I understood, rather than the stuff that was played at my pervious churches (Parents were migrants).
But yeah, this turned out a hellova lot longer than I anticipated, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
Feel free to message me, anyone, if you have questions about what I wrote, or if you're just interested in finding out more.
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Christian here and sort of went through the same phase. I sort of grew up in a Christian background (mom was a Christian, dad was very opposed to it) and I was given the freedom to decide for myself what I wanted to believe in. I made the leap around my late teens. And it wasn't from going to a church camp.
My personal opinion is that ultimately, you will never be able to get rid of doubt and ascertain the truth. The truth is pretty much only known by the ultimate creator of the universe (deities/random luck) and men can try as much to become deities and discover truth, but it will just never happen, until the creator (deities or random luck) reveals itself (whether he/it chooses to). So worrying so much about it is not worth it.
This is where faith sets the difference. I feel that my faith, even if there is elements of doubt, it gives my life a bit more meaning and faith sort of leads to a better understanding of the world and people around me. I'm not saying that you should count on faith alone, but for me, my faith drives me to discover and learn more about the world and do my best to succeed in my calling.
Whether I'm right or wrong, it's given me direction, made me a better person in various ways (intellectually and personality-wise) and if anything has made me more open minded and responsible than if I had remained a non-believer with no aim in life.
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God?
As for whether the Old Testament is meant to be read literally or figuratively, I'm off the opinion that the Old Testament were written based on the understandings of that particular period, which makes it subject to slight contextual distortions. However the important thing is the meaning behind the story and I don't think these contextual distortions take away its meaning. I'm not however a scholar so I'm not someone you can count on when it comes to this. But various apologetics can provide answers. From a Christian POV, you can go to various apologetic websites and find answers to your question. Just Google it up.
However do note that for every apologetic website that are almost twice or three websites with arguments against it. The world (particularly the internet realm) is getting more and more atheistic influenced. If you feel you're prepared to face those arguments go ahead. I did, and I found that atheist arguments aren't very good either and they don't explain the world any better than Christianity does.
Which leads us back to where I started in that you can never discover the ultimate truth and it's just not worth it making yourself feel worried, guilty or stressed for attempting to find the roots of our existence. The best you can do is to find what works best for YOU or hope/pray for some sort of spiritual experience.
When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
The thing about Christianity is that it isn't a moral code. It's about a group of people coming to terms that they are sinners and repenting about it. It does not mean you are condemned if you sin. It also does not mean that you automatically stop sinning ever. If that were the case we wouldn't need a Savior. We are all human and are all equally likely to be tempted.
What it does mean however is that we repent and sanctify ourselves. Repentance means that we honestly confess that we have sin and attempt to turn away. Some people experience repentance easily and can stop most of their sins almost immediately after repentance. That's why there's a need to continually repent and ask for forgiveness (Lord's Prayer).
Ultimately only one person can judge you and that is God himself. If you feel convicted that you are doing wrong and not repenting then do repent and start attempting to turn away from your sin. A Christian life is a life of growing, and if you are unable to turn away from your sin, there is always more chances for repentance.
Just understand that Jesus himself was tempted and if you're worried about judgment, believe that Jesus understands and intercedes for you based on his experience being tempted. There's a verse somewhere in Hebrews 6 (if I'm correct), and I'm too lazy to look it up.
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Serving God shouldn't just be confined to direct evangelizing or serving at a Church. There is so many ways you can serve God. By helping a friend in need, being an example to others, inventing cures for diseases, putting yourself in a position (by studying/working hard) of influence. There are a limitless number of ways you can serve God. Tell me of the things I've just mentioned, which one is a waste of time? It's not. If you don't feel called to serve in a Church, try to find ways you can serve in which you can be happy and you can still glorify God. Writing music, stories, etc, maybe?
Being a Christian doesn't mean you can't live your life to the fullest. Yes there are limits to how "full" you can live your life by being a Christian, but for me, I think that those boundaries are put in place because exceeding those boundaries will only bring more harm than good. Yes for awhile you may feel great wih all the "pleasures" of those exceeding those boundaries, but ultimately there comes a price to it. It's a very common verse, but remember "everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial and constructive" (paraphrasing 1 Corinthians 10:23-24)
Again, exceeding those boundaries doesn't mean you're judged for eternal condemnation. There is always a chance for repentance.
I never imagined myself talking about my faith on a Starcraft forums but I felt you may need the encouragement. It's a very Christian biased opinion, but I hope they help.
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the only thing I ever say about this topic is Pascal's wager. No real down side but if you're right the benefit is good. lol I will add however that 800 years old = growing seasons and other stuff. so it was like 10 years = 1 or something ridiculous by the way some of the time is mentioned lol
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Don't take offense from anything here (it isn't intended to be offensive, more like just a hard opinion to deal with).
On June 21 2011 17:08 plbro81 wrote:
I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
Me too. When you believe in an afterlife and a guiding force, the living is easy. But it is just too idealistic and baseless; I can't force myself to believe in something I want to be true if it can't be proven.
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect? I used to laugh at other religions because they were "stupid" but is Christianity really any different? It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it?
The Bible was written thousands of years ago by various contributors over the course of several centuries and has been translated and retranslated over time. The Bible is hard to believe because it is created by these people. That's why I get frustrated when people quote the Bible as a source of proof, which it isn't (no more than the Iliad is). I honestly think it is fine to believe in God, as we cannot determine the existence of God, but the rigidity of the religion (that tells you you must believe in everything the Bible says) isn't really fair for those reasons. It is only natural for you as a young man to question these things.
I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Why? You don't need religion as a moral compass to tell you what to do. And honestly, I feel like a better person since I stopped believing in God. For example, my best friend in middle school for 6 years was an atheist, and I HAD to believe that he would burn forever. Even though I didn't know why I HAD to believe that, I did. That's not a good thing. I also was told that people who got divorced were evil, gays were evil, I was evil for missing church and would surely go to Hell (that's totally fair to a 12 year old), and I just got sick of it. Ever since I became an atheist, I became more involved in the non-religious community, whether in real life or with people online, and discovered that most of them were very kind and rational and were just sick of being told what to do and think and watching others be told what to do and think.
So live your life. I know it is hard at first to let go, as it is with an fixture in your life. But I have experienced what you described, let go of my faith, and now feel like I am a better person and see good in people for their kindness and sincerity rather than their faith. You should do what is right because you think it is right, not because another human being thousands of years ago thought he knew best and wrote it all down. Hopefully you'll end up happier like I have. (: gl
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On June 21 2011 19:12 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:34 Azzur wrote:
The next thing to consider is the timing of when Jesus arrived into the world. He didn't go to a random civilization during the dark ages. He came to the Jews at the height of the Classical era. This meant that the Romans had good roads (vital for spreading The Word) and kept good records. There were many eye witness accounts on Jesus' life.
Now, also consider the 3 main monotheistic religions of the world - Christianity, Islam and Judaism. If you study the early history of their books, you'll find them quite similar. In fact, both Islam and Judaism acknowledge the existence of Jesus (but as a prophet). Coupled with the fact that the people living in those areas now are still fighting over their right over the land. The story has been passed down from generations to generations and good records are kept. I find both of these points to be extremely odd arguments in favor of Christianity because they're usually used to debunk it. There are no eye witness accounts on the life of Jesus. According to the Bible, he was literate, but he never wrote any books, nor did his disciples. The gospels attributed to the apostles were originally untitled and anonymous and only later associated with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; they weren't written contemporaneously with Jesus. Despite the Romans' good record keeping, there isn't a single record of Jesus having ever existed. The best historical references to Jesus are brief mentions of people talking about someone named Christ many decades later. As to the similarity of Jesus in religion, his story is also very similar to older gods such as Dionysus, Horus, and Mithras. Of course Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are similar: they were founded in the same region. Even Jesus was supposedly a Jew, and the first Christians were all Jews. It's not like Christianity and Islam were founded separately by people with no knowledge of Judaism.
The Bible 'is' an Eye Witness Account. Carbon dating on what are known as the "Dead Sea Scrolls" - scrolls found near the Dead Sea, including the Gospels and several of the Old Testament, date back to the very very early periods of Christianity.
Roman bookeeping records Christians as criminals, and didn't document the person Jesus, while through archaelogical means it shows that the Romans were completely aware of Jesus.
- See Life of Jesus DVD - Stone altar dedicated to God/Jesus by a Roman Centurion, dating back to the First Centuary AD.
Another point is that 1 Corinthian is signed letter from Paul to the Corinth Church.
In Chapter 15, it says: 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
This was written in the lifetime of Paul, who was alive in the time of Jesus, and says that Jesus appeared to more than 500 people, most of whom were alive. These were people that the readers of the letter could go and question, who were open to cross-examination. They 'were' first hand eye witnesses, and for example, what Jury would convict an innocent man if 500 eye witnesses stood up for him?
And yes. Judaism came first. They're Holy Book, the Torah, is the Old Testament of the Holy Bible, which Christian believe points to the coming of Christ Jesus, the fulfillemt of the promise given by God to Abraham.
Islam came after Christianity, and is of the belief that each new prophet (they see Jesus as a prophet rather than the son of God) phases out the teachings and significance of the old, whereas again, from the Bible:
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. - Revelations 22:18-19.
The other Gods/Entities you mention, die and are raised for a completely different reason, such as the seasons, rather than for anything even close to the idea of Salvation.
eg, Osiris dies in Winter and Isis raises him up from the dead in Summer.
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The question you should ask yourself before everything else, in my opinion, is "Why is the concept of God is important to me and why do I believe in him?"
If the answer is something like "Because I believed in him since a was born" you should ask yourself if you ever considered the question before this phase you are going through and it should be pretty much eye openning for you at this point.
Think about it : You pretty much accept the beliefs given to you by you parents. If your parents are Jews, Christian or muslim, chances are you practice the same religion as them!
No matter what the decision you take, it is time to think rationnaly by yourself alone and ask yourself if the religion you are in makes sense or not to you : Critical thinking.
If you make a "switch of beliefs", you might get in a difficult psycholgical phase especially because you integrated "God" in your life since so long; such a change would makes it difficult to adapt depending on were you transpose your beliefs.
As an agnostic atheist, I'd say you will respond by one of the three following :
- Denial and return to intial beliefs;
- Switch to other spirital beliefs (any deist or weak agnostic position);
- Belief switch (using critical thinking aquired in college) and then making a switch of beliefs to atheism or strong agnostic position (might cause a mild or severe depression depending on the implications those new beliefs cause on your life [eg. : life after death, meaning of life, etc...]).
I wish you good luck, I know what you are passing through.
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On June 21 2011 17:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I am of the Catholic Religion (and the Jewish one), so although I am not Christian. I hope this can help you out.
All these stories are not meant to be viewed from a realist understanding. While the stories may seem far-fetched, unnatural or unbelievable in this day and age. They serve multiple moral purposes or form an interpretation of how things begun.
In reality, you're not meant to serve God, but simply to love him and accept him as a part of your guidance? Is there a God? Is there a Heaven or Hell? That's how you want to interpret the whole religion. There are different degrees of faith and because you are not living more independently, so is your thought-process.
Feel free to use your faith and the bible as heavily or lightly as you want. To blindly believe and "serve" God is probably not what they teach you in your church classes (mine didn't).
If I recall, Gallileo had several run-ins with the church when he proved that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not vice-versa. The church was furious of this heresy, but Galileo showed, via discourse (or in writing), that both Science and Religion can work in a sort that one guides and answers questions we can't physically prove (or disprove) and another aims to show the inner-workings of it all.
Huge paraphrase on my part, but the point being; I don't see why you can't both Love and pray to your God while also living life to your fullest. God put you here to do as you please, so long as you remember what you've been morally brought up to understand about your world and the inevitable afterlife. Like the parallels of Science (knowledge and education) and Religion, you can live your life seeking both.
Hope this helps.
As for: "is this phase"? It's more of a maturation. You're not distancing yourself from Christianity, just placing it some place where it fits and can help you lead a happier life.
Wait, so ur a catholic or a jew?
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On June 21 2011 18:11 Kerotan wrote:
I feel like I was in a very similar position, when I read this line: "I really want to believe in God" it bought it home.
I really wanted to believe because I was terrified of death, I had the same questions as you and it all seemed increasingly like a farce, yet I still believed because I needed a security blanket.
I don't want to be too preachy, but I'm going to close with this:
You can be a good person and not believe in god.
Yeah this is exactly how I feel. The reason I want to believe is because A) I am scared of death and I want to believe there is life after death and B) it feels to me that life is almost pointless (in a way) without Christianity. We're basically no different from any other animal; we're born, we reproduce, we die. I want to believe there is something else in our lives that makes us different.
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On June 21 2011 20:01 OmniEulogy wrote:
the only thing I ever say about this topic is Pascal's wager. No real down side but if you're right the benefit is good.
Haha I thought about this too. But if the reason why I believe in God is just to avoid hell, I think God would know that lol.
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 21 2011 21:30 plbro81 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:11 Kerotan wrote:
I feel like I was in a very similar position, when I read this line: "I really want to believe in God" it bought it home.
I really wanted to believe because I was terrified of death, I had the same questions as you and it all seemed increasingly like a farce, yet I still believed because I needed a security blanket.
I don't want to be too preachy, but I'm going to close with this:
You can be a good person and not believe in god. Yeah this is exactly how I feel. The reason I want to believe is because A) I am scared of death and I want to believe there is life after death and B) it feels to me that life is almost pointless (in a way) without Christianity. We're basically no different from any other animal; we're born, we reproduce, we die. I want to believe there is something else in our lives that makes us different.
We are different in that we are more self aware. We don't just try to eat, reproduce like animals, but we have (more complex) feelings, we seek happiness more so than animals do. We have more and more complex social interactions; that's what makes us different.
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On June 21 2011 19:45 Revanchist wrote:
1. Jesus of Nazareth existed. As a historical source, the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments) is considered First Hand evidence simply because the Gospels were written between 10 and 40ish years after the death of Jesus, by those who were there. Numerous other sources about Jesus also exist, but I won't go into them here.
2. Jesus changed lives. No one ever doubted the fact that Jesus's teachings managed to change the lives of many people back in the Roman Era and in the present day. Case Study: John Newton, the composer of Amazing Grace. Formerly a slaver, deserter and slanderer.
3. That Jesus died on the Cross, via crucifixion, for the crime of Blasphemy against God almighty. Verified by more sources than just the bible.
4. That on the third day, the tomb was empty. Not that Jesus was risen, specifically, but that it was empty. Jews and Aethists main arguement was that the disciples stole the body. ie, managed to get past a guard (In the original Greek a guard is more like a squad) and steal the body, when they disowned Jesus at his trial (Matthew 27: 62-66).
It's a fact that Jesus existed and died on the cross, but the question is did he rise from the dead? When he rose from the dead he didn't show himself to the general public (I wish he did lol.) So only his followers spread the word that he lived, but, its his followers. They could've made it up. They could've stole the body to make it seem like he rose from the dead though.
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I appreciate all the civil responses! It's given me a lot to think about.
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i dont understand your fear of death.
when you are dead you wont feel fear anyway. Maybe you are more afraid of the act of dying ?
I grew up in a quite relifious family with 1 hardcore-christ (my sister). But i never felt the need to believe in god (like way to many people want me to think).
i got my confirmation, but only because i didnt have the balls to say "why should i ?"
it took sometime for me to feel strong enough to stand the pressure of society to say "im an atheist and im proud": I left the church and dont regret it.
just to make sure:
i dont believe in god, what other people believe in i dont care as long as they dont come to convert me.
something is bothering me in you first post:
you said you really want to believe in god.
by stating this you already put yourself in a tricky situation because you wont tolerate a different background than "god exist".
maybe you should start again think, from a totally neutral point of view, as far as its possible.
ask other people, try to avoid any religious hardliner and ask fpeople who never thought about this. after this you could start to talk to people from both extreme points. the hardcore-christs and he atheists.
this will give you more informations through the whole spectrum ob believing. maybe helping you to find the place where you find yourself.
something to read:
maybe you should check the American Heart Journal April/2006, there was an experiment considering the effect of praying.
sth about the bible:
the bible is a very dangerous book imo.
too many people say "its full of love and peace" but they never read it with poened eyes.
there are so many cruel actions and all in the name of their god.
In cse you want to read them:
Judge 19, 23-24
4. Moses 20
5. Moses 20, 16-17
Lucas 14, 26
Josua 6, 16-24
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I read the Bible once. Mostly because I love reading books and it was the only book my grandparents had in their house. I was never brought up with going to church and stuff, not even by these grandparents. As a child I was taught I should pray every night and random child stuff but never forced to go to church. By the time I got to read the Bible I took it as fiction, sort of.
It is after all a book written by countless people. Put together in church meetings until sometime around year 1K so I'm pretty sure it has changed quite a bit in that time. It's also pretty obvious most of it is hyperbole, parable and overall moral views as seen through the eyes of certain men living in a certain time, then modified by other men living in other times. If you start peeling off some of the subjectivity of the time, adopt some of the rules we have now it is actually a very decent book about morals through time. And morals Christianity should promote.
It is also what gave me the idea that faith ruled by men is fake. Churches aren't required to believe, fake, a controlling entity, ruined by internal quarrels and egos, initially used to control the simple folk (most people were illiterate and kept that way by the influence of the church), used to control the destinies of empires. It is quite an obvious divergence between what the Bible says Jesus said and the way Christians act and the way Church acted/still acts.
In the end I have no idea if I believe in a God or not, it's irrelevant, One as presented in the New Testament wouldn't care if people believed or not, actions and life matter. You could call me agnostic, or an atheist since I don't actually ever think if I believe or not, nor do I care. I just know I do not care about the word of the so called Church. While I agree there are priests that might care, as an institution it is not relevant for my faith (or lack of).
It's more of an example looking at what Islam has become. From the guardian of knowledge during the Dark Ages it has become as the Christian church once was, preying on the poor and illiterate to do the bidding of powerful men.
Quite sickening, organized religion is, in my own eyes, a fake, a plague.
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
While this is a bias quote it brings up a good point.
Look to all other religions. Maybe you will find one that you do not reject. Like has been said do not limit yourself to your cultural or geographical location when related to your faith.
Explore all faiths to decide what you believe in. or not.
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5003 Posts
Okay, note that I've only read the OP so sorry if this is redundant.
I kinda miss the days where I blindly believed in God.
You just miss the times when you were a child. Sadly, as you grow up and become more aware of everything of course you're going to question everything.
One thing I'll say though is that I don't consider "blind faith" faith. Faith is faith because it can be questioned. Even the greatest Christians are shaken of their beliefs at times. Does that mean they are faithless?
Faith cannot be blind. Faith comes when you naturally come to terms with yourself and begin understand your own limitations. It is only then when "God" means something. Sadly most people in the world have an overly inflated sense of their limitations nowadays, which is why people tend to move away from it.
Read Kierkegaard.
I've read the Bible a couple times, and when I think about it, all of it seems so fake. Like Noah's ark, men growing to be 800 yrs old, and Goliath. What makes Christianity different from other religions in retrospect
I personally hold zero opinion on whether some of the stories in the Bible are true or not. In the end, it does not matter. Christianity is more than these background stories.
It's so hard to believe sometimes. Is there really a heaven and hell? Is there really a God? When I do something bad, why am I beating myself up over it? Is religion just something created by man to establish moral codes?
Is there a heaven and hell? Why do you care? The thing about people believing in heaven and hell is that they have such a preconceived notion of it to the point where it's not believable. I don't believe in Pearly gates or physical sulphuric fire you suffer for the rest of your life. But I do believe in the notion of heaven and hell, but it's probably not the way you conceive it.
Is there a God? There's probably not a God that meets YOUR definition. I don't believe in a man in the sky who just answers prayers when I want him to. Your definition of God, your understanding of who God is is likely wrong and you will need to develop this over time with experience.
Why are you beating yourself up over it? Because you haven't fully realized the redemptive power of the Gospel.
Have any Christians went through this phase I'm going through? I really want to believe in God, I really do. I just find it so hard to do so lately. I feel myself degrading slowly morally, which is alarming me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bad guy, in fact, I would say I'm a pretty good person. I don't cuss, I don't get into fights, I am a really kind guy. I'm not looking for a reason to do things looked down upon in the Bible. I just want to know whether spending my life "serving God" is a waste of time and I should just live life to the fullest.
Nearly every Christian goes through this phase, I believe. It's something that is needed for the most to mature.
Why do you not think "Serving God" isn't living your life to the fullest?
Think about it a bit more. Notice that you can always set up strawmans for Christianity and knock it down all you want. But understand that you've barely touched the surface of it all.
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Hmm,
Great claims demand great evidence. If we personally witnessed a man who could predict the future with perfect accuracy, turn water into wine, and part the sea, I think most people's views of religion may be changed. But in the absence of great evidence, one must look at these things in a different manner.
There is a duality between emotions and reason in the broad sense. Because we're emotional beings, we like to listen to our "hearts." If deep inside we "feel" that there should be some transcendental purpose or morality, we'll tend to try to rationalize it. Moreover, a lot of perfectly intelligent people can be drawn into cults or cult-like organizations, because their emotions trump their reason. A lot of people will turn off their minds in favor of satisfying emotion. I can't denounce that if it doesn't hurt anyone, but personally I believe there is favor in seeking truth.
When someone says they believe in "God," you should realize that they may not have the same conception of God. See, we can all have a pretty good consensus on what a "chair" is. Even though I cannot see into another man's mind to "check" if he has the same image, our ability to interact with it is essentially the same. Yet for God, a more abstract being who we cannot see, the picture is constructed within our minds and cannot be easily compared.
For example, if someone makes an argument for God as a very abstract being, it doesn't justify believe in God as specifically depicted in one religion.
So is there a "God" in the Christian, biblical sense? It is up to you to decide. But personally, having read the bible a few times, I think that the God depicted is too human. I don't know if there is a God or not but my impression is that if one exists, he'd have to be greater than depicted in the bible. There is great violence and suffering in the bible, and there is also discipline, love, and compassion.
When Christians talk about the Bible, they will often simply regurgitate the words they've seen many times, as you can probably see from some of the responses in this thread. i.e "God is Just." Yet all these terms and phrases are meaningless if you cannot communicate the substance behind them. If I say something like "water freezes at 0 degrees C" it has an immediate meaning, yet saying "Jesus died for your sins" does not. Why? Because you have no proof and I have no proof and no way of proof and thus it becomes vacuous. If I hear "Jesus loves you" it is similarly vacuous. Until heard enough that the phrase soaks into your mind and puts "Jesus's love" in various circumstances.
As for historical evidence, why is it that there is no aramaic text of Jesus' words? You'd think that if they valued it so much they would've recorded it like that. Moreover, the outside sources don't seem to provide much evidence. It suggests more that Jesus assumed the role of "messiah" to start a revolution.
If you grew up as a Christian, I think you would have a tendency to believe in some sort of transcendent morality or purpose (as opposed to socially constructed or evolutionary morality). At least that is my personal experience. You don't want to just live and then die, you want to remain forever.
In the grand scheme, is there any worth in pursuing progress, helping others, or striving for the truth beyond the practical gains or feelings of contentment one achieves from doing so? I don't know. I would like to believe so, but perhaps that is just my bias speaking.
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EPT
