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On latest PTR-Notes, this change appeared:
Ghost * Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100.
Why making a full thread just for this seemingly minor change? I believe it is severely underestimated and might have a huge impact even! I believe it is much more than just your average balance adjustment, it's made to favor certain playstyles which make SC2 a different game than it is. It also goes deep down into questions of what makes SC2 good and where the differences - and perhaps weaknesses - lie compared to Broodwar.
And even if that impact won't appear as much, I hope I can at least seize the mindset Blizzard probably has behind this change for you.
Let me have a try characterizing the effect it can have:
What does that change mean for Terran Styles?
-Ghosts are rather unfavourable for bio players now, because bio players tend to have more spare gas than minerals
-Mech players rather have more minerals leftover than gas, so this change makes Ghosts cheaper to them
-Mech builds in TvP are relying much more on Ghosts than bio builds, because they remove Immortal shields and make it easier to kill units. That is very crucial for mech play, which often bases on killing the enemy before they chew through to the tanks. Every HP less on enemy units makes it much easier for mech than for bio.
While bio results in a rather "statistical" fight - dps-to-health-comparisons of to blobs where small changes (such as: One zealot more or less) only have a small impact on the result, Mech is very "spikey" due to the high-damage-low-health nature of Tanks. This makes additional burst damage (like EMP is against Shields) much, much more valuable.
So, what we have here actually is a TvP Mechplay buff.
What characterizes TvP Mechplay compared to TvP Bioplay?
1) Positioning: Terran needs excellent positioning, much more than it does with bio (in emergency: stim and run)
2) Struggle for Map Control: While Protoss often feels forced to be defensive against Bio players, because moving out is very risky: Stim bio will just kill all P's army when it cannot hold in a fight, because it is both very strong and very fast. Rather, Protoss want to accumulate their famous death ball to use the fact that Terran rather utilizes T1 units, to overrun them with Colossi and/or Storm.
Against Mech Play, the value of map control suddenly changes:
First of all, the Terran would suddenly have a much stronger maxed army than with bio. This means that it is important to not just sit and wait.
Second, Terran may not be allowed to siege up at spots he want to, or he has a strong position that is hard to break. He also may not be allowed to siege up in front of Protoss base, or it can get pretty nasty.
Third, map control now is less risky to get for Protoss. Escaping is possible, as usually the only fast unit for Terran is hellion, which won't do much against other units than Zealots and Sentry.
3) More Interaction in Fights: Imo Mech vs Protoss results in much more diversed fights than the rather a-move focussed Bioball-vs-Deathball-fights which are often seen in lategame Bio vs Protoss matches.
Mech armies tend to spread out a lot more, because Siege Tanks obviously benefit of that. This means longer drawn out fights, less predictability, more time to micro. Also, more need to tactical moves, such as using Zealots or Immortals to attack from behind: This is rather useless versus bio, but hitting unguarded siege tanks in the rear can prove very effective.
Also: Single unit interactions suddenly are much more important. Imagine the protoss to have five phoenix and lift five marauders of a 150-supply-bio ball. That won't do much. But lifting five Siege Tanks in the right moment? Crucial!
4) More Unit Variation?: In Bio vs Protoss, we very often see the same: MMM+Vikings (and potential Ghosts) vs Gateway-Colossi. I think the range of variation for mech builds is much larger:
For Terran:
-Terrans don't necessarily need as many vikings, as Tanks can be quite fine against Colossi, too, and Colossi can't always use the same damage potential as against Bio
-Medivacs are still often used, as the simple dropships they used to be in BW, for blue flame hellion drops as Hellions are necessary anyways
-Terrans tend to more often add a Banshee from time to time, we see Goody often doing this, to not completely give up on pressuring the Protoss.
-Transitioning into higher techs - even Battlecruisers - is much more viable for a Terran style that relies less on having a fast army. Mech only is partially fast - using Hellions - while the army itself is very slow. Battlecruisers mix in very well, perhaps even some Ravens some day.
For Protoss:
-Immortals tend to have a much higher value against mech heavy plays
-Air units seem more viable, because Terran has less antiair and is way less mobile and way less good in chasing down harassing air units. A good phoenix lift can suddenly decide a game when taking out for example three Siege Tanks in the rear at a crucial time (even when they get shot down in the process, this can still win a game).
-Mostly exept for Sentry and HT, all other units still preserve their value though, for example Colossi to shut down hellions killing Zealots before the battle
Bottom Line
The change seems to be aimed at enabling more mech play in TvP, and this is the right thing to do!
Could it be that Blizzard was inspired by Panzergeneral Goody's play? Actually there have been a lot of voices telling that his style was great for SC2. ClouD even once twittered that Goodystyle was the only glimpse of hope he has for SC2 to become as great as BW one day (but don't nail me down on that, it could've been troll, too: You might know their "special rivalry" :D)
Also, this might be a direct result of this famous TL article: What SC2 is missing? which argued for a more positional, setuptimes, map control. All crucial elements of Mech vs Protoss.
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Dude, it's 50 minerals and 50 gas away from being the same.
I think this just makes ghosts more viable after nerfing them, because gas is more valuable then minerals. I like where you're goind with "buffing mech", but i think you're reading too far into things. It's atrocious to say we'll see less bio with ghosts, but it makes sense we'll see more mech with ghosts.
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On April 28 2011 07:24 Bippzy wrote:
Dude, it's 50 minerals and 50 gas away from being the same.
I think this just makes ghosts more viable after nerfing them, because gas is more valuable then minerals. I like where you're goind with "buffing mech", but i think you're reading too far into things. It's atrocious to say we'll see less bio with ghosts, but it makes sense we'll see more mech with ghosts.
Now of course those 50 minerals won't make Ghosts like much less valuable for a bio player, that's just one marine. But I think the change to Mech is actually pretty good - not extreme, but definitly enough to feel it. Mech always starves on gas while needing Ghost so badly, now it is favored.
Also, one might say "Hey, just a slight change, just 50 shifted", but I wanted to point out the intention behind this, because it seems so random at first. And I think it's plausible to infer the rest of it: In what way Mech is different than Bio, that more Mech in TvP is good and how it might affect the future of SC2, because it shows what Blizzard has in mind.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Uh I'm starved on gas even when I play bio. Not sure why you think Terran doesn't build any gas units. Marauders for one are huge gas sinks in late game because you are making 20 of them at the same time if you're on pure bio. That's a lot of gas.
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England14 Posts
The Change in cost seems to be in line with the change with EMP i wouldn't say this seems random. I would like to see mech become dominant in this matchup but to say this change is aimed at moving players in that direction seems like you're over thinking it.
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I, for one, can't wait to actually be able to pull of mech vs protoss. Bio is just so boring, and is completely crippled late game.
Mech vs protoss is still going to be walking a razor's edge, it's just so damn frail through the mid game that one strong push or one moment of being out of position could mean a loss. I don't think this will effect the balance too much, although I do think it's certainly a change for the better.
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On April 28 2011 07:38 infinity21 wrote:
Uh I'm starved on gas even when I play bio. Not sure why you think Terran doesn't build any gas units. Marauders for one are huge gas sinks in late game because you are making 20 of them at the same time if you're on pure bio. That's a lot of gas.
I don't think that Terran does not build any gas units, Terran bio indeed has become very gas heavy even - Marauders having the gas cost of SC:BW medics, adding 100 gas medivacs. But if you don't lose your medivacs too often, the running gas spendings for bio are "relatively" low.
The mineral-to-gas-ratio of terran bio remains unarguably lower than that of mech and there often are situations where terran players do have rather spare gas than minerals. It is always possible to invest minerals properly as bio, a marine is almost never bad.
On April 28 2011 07:38 Yezhuv wrote:
The Change in cost seems to be in line with the change with EMP i wouldn't say this seems random. I would like to see mech become dominant in this matchup but to say this change is aimed at moving players in that direction seems like you're over thinking it.
I think it clearly is aimed at first buffing mech and then having more players move to that style. Bio is not starving on gas as much so this change will not make Ghosts much stronger or much weaker for bio, and ultimately it's not much of a balance change.
But this change does make Ghosts easier accessible to Mech without a doubt. It is the only reason for this change I could think of why this change would be made ultimately, via method of elimination.
As I wrote in the intro, even if this change does not affect gameplay as severely as I think it could be, it still shows Blizzards mindset for this matter.
On April 28 2011 07:45 Meta wrote:
I, for one, can't wait to actually be able to pull of mech vs protoss. Bio is just so boring, and is completely crippled late game.
Mech vs protoss is still going to be walking a razor's edge, it's just so damn frail through the mid game that one strong push or one moment of being out of position could mean a loss. I don't think this will effect the balance too much, although I do think it's certainly a change for the better.
Yeah mech is frail, but I think SC2 always is frail, because defense is so weak.
I think that the only reason why bio feels more "stable" these days, is actually because players are so experienced with it. Think about it: Bio has no defense to fall back to, once your army is at deficit your opponent can walk into your production and kill you. But an opponent winning a fight and then spotting three well positioned tanks at your base? Much harder to walk into that.
Bio just feels much more stable these days, because players are much more experienced in estimating the situation. The same thing might be reached for mech one day.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On April 28 2011 07:48 teekesselchen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 07:38 infinity21 wrote:
Uh I'm starved on gas even when I play bio. Not sure why you think Terran doesn't build any gas units. Marauders for one are huge gas sinks in late game because you are making 20 of them at the same time if you're on pure bio. That's a lot of gas. I don't think that Terran does not build any gas units, Terran bio indeed has become very gas heavy even - Marauders having the gas cost of SC:BW medics, adding 100 gas medivacs. But if you don't lose your medivacs too often, the running gas spendings for bio are "relatively" low. The mineral-to-gas-ratio of terran bio remains unarguably lower than that of mech and there often are situations where terran players do have rather spare gas than minerals. It is always possible to invest minerals properly as bio, a marine is almost never bad. Show nested quote +On April 28 2011 07:38 Yezhuv wrote:
The Change in cost seems to be in line with the change with EMP i wouldn't say this seems random. I would like to see mech become dominant in this matchup but to say this change is aimed at moving players in that direction seems like you're over thinking it. I think it clearly is. Bio is not starving on gas as much so this change will not make Ghosts much stronger or much weaker for bio, and ultimately it's not much of a balance change. But this change does make Ghosts easier accessible to Mech without a doubt. It is the only reason for this change I could think of why this change would be made ultimately, via method of elimination. As I wrote in the intro, even if this change does not affect gameplay as severely as I think it could be, it still shows Blizzards mindset for this matter.
Bio is certainly less gas-hungry than mech but marines are absolutely useless once well-upgraded colo come into play. I used to think that I can just fill up my supply and use my spare minerals for marines but they die too fast to do any damage in late game.
meh I'm being such a negative nancy today. I think the ghost change is going to be great for both bio and mech play and hope to see some new unit compositions in the next patch.
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I'm more excited that ghosts are going to be easier to get TvZ now that infestors are more common. What with tanks thors and medivacs TvZ can get pretty gas heavy.
Also I must say that yeah I do tend to have a lot of gas going bio against protoss, but nowadays I'm doing thor banshee anyway. Protoss has got our number on MMM now I think.
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EPT
