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On April 14 2011 09:00 Chill wrote:
People must really be sure of themselves if they can predict the future of SC2 development so easily.
This, more than anything. There's no good way to make predictions about how, when, why, or if players will change the way they play SC2. All we have is a war of competing intuitions. The entire process of Brood War developing into the game it is today was predicated on nobody, not even an RTS prodigy crossbred with a build order genius - even iloveoov - was able to figure out everything that could or would happen instantly. They could only make predictions and come up with stuff as they came. None of us are smart enough, prescient enough, or good enough at Starcraft to know anything for sure about where SC2 is going.
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sick of these blogs bitching about how sc2 is already somehow stale in comparison to ALL THESE OTHER GAMES WHICH HAVE BEEN OUT FOR YEARS. your line of argument is bullshit and illogical.
i wasnt into rts games when starcraft first came out. the other day i played vanilla and it was awful without all the broodwar units. why? because i was used to the variety. do i think sc2 is crap because ive not experienced the expansions? no.
i dont understand your need to bitch about a game which isnt even fully released & balanced. at least wait for the first expansion before getting your knickers in a twist over how a vanilla rts game is supposedly stale in comparison to another which has had an expansion or just kill yourself.
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Maybe I don't watch enough SC2, but I find that there are not quite as many highly tense moments as there were in BW.
Stuff like reaver drops, recall vs emp, impossible hold via dswarm, mines vs goons, lurker vs bio, scourge vs sair, etc. always gets me going
SC2 does have its moments, but seems like much fewer to me.
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On April 14 2011 09:06 Ledcaveman wrote:
sick of these blogs bitching about how sc2 is already somehow stale in comparison to ALL THESE OTHER GAMES WHICH HAVE BEEN OUT FOR YEARS. your line of argument is bullshit and illogical.
i wasnt into rts games when starcraft first came out. the other day i played vanilla and it was awful without all the broodwar units. why? because i was used to the variety. do i think sc2 is crap because ive not experienced the expansions? no.
i dont understand your need to bitch about a game which isnt even fully released & balanced. at least wait for the first expansion before getting your knickers in a twist over how a vanilla rts game is supposedly stale in comparison to another which has had an expansion or just kill yourself.
But SC2 is supposed to build on BW, you can't just say its a completely new game. In fact, STARCRAFT 2 is in one of the oldest, most thoroughly developed series of all time. And the fact that people still are finding so many flaws in it after 12 years of development makes me think there is a serious underlying problem.
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really i tend to agree with op.
bw was and still is a great game. it had almost everything, a great community, a amazing proscene, and last but not least, it was a great game.
the problem now is that asc2 is boring, there really isn't the hype over players. i follow both scenes, and tbh i enjoy bw more, but since bw has a smaller community, i'm sorta forced to play sc2 if i want to auctally play in tournaments and be competitive.
same thing goes for wc3, love the game, no proscene though.
sc2 is a rather boring game, but has a huge proscene internationally compared to other games. tbh its the only reason i'm playing it still. apperently though i'm not alone. according to idra, every professional player secretly hates the game, and would rather be playing bw.
of course the money is with sc2, so thats where they go
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On April 14 2011 09:19 masterbreti wrote:
sc2 is a rather boring game, but has a huge proscene internationally compared to other games. tbh its the only reason i'm playing it still. apperently though i'm not alone. according to idra, every professional player secretly hates the game, and would rather be playing bw.
of course the money is with sc2, so thats where they go
Yeah I am really looking forward to the day when some of the money that is currently in SC2 is moved over to like halo 10 or something like that and players like Idra can continue playing BW.
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i hope you're all wrong and that sc2 doesnt turn out to be another cs:s with the gsl being a korean equivalent of the cgs.
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On April 14 2011 09:24 Ledcaveman wrote:
i hope you're all wrong and that sc2 doesnt turn out to be another cs:s with the gsl being a korean equivalent of the cgs.
i was just thinking that, and how i want that to happen. cause with gom backup as well as the current popularity in korea, would make bw 10x bigger than it was before sc2, both inernationally and in korea
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On April 14 2011 09:26 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:24 Ledcaveman wrote:
i hope you're all wrong and that sc2 doesnt turn out to be another cs:s with the gsl being a korean equivalent of the cgs. i was just thinking that, and how i want that to happen. cause with gom backup as well as the current popularity in korea, would make bw 10x bigger than it was before sc2, both inernationally and in korea
True. All these players like me came to know about pro BW through SC2 so I think down the road BW will actually be more popular than ever before in the west.
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On April 14 2011 09:28 IamBach wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:26 masterbreti wrote:On April 14 2011 09:24 Ledcaveman wrote:
i hope you're all wrong and that sc2 doesnt turn out to be another cs:s with the gsl being a korean equivalent of the cgs. i was just thinking that, and how i want that to happen. cause with gom backup as well as the current popularity in korea, would make bw 10x bigger than it was before sc2, both inernationally and in korea True. All these players like me came to know about pro BW through SC2 so I think down the road BW will actually be more popular than ever before in the west.
lets hope though the money doesn't go into halo 10 or something, but just goes to bw :D
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On April 14 2011 09:29 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:28 IamBach wrote:On April 14 2011 09:26 masterbreti wrote:On April 14 2011 09:24 Ledcaveman wrote:
i hope you're all wrong and that sc2 doesnt turn out to be another cs:s with the gsl being a korean equivalent of the cgs. i was just thinking that, and how i want that to happen. cause with gom backup as well as the current popularity in korea, would make bw 10x bigger than it was before sc2, both inernationally and in korea True. All these players like me came to know about pro BW through SC2 so I think down the road BW will actually be more popular than ever before in the west. lets hope though the money doesn't go into halo 10 or something, but just goes to bw :D
That would be ideal. OMG Jaedong winning $90,000,000(or what ever the prize money is for SC2 tourneys these days) would be a dream.
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brood war is good, but SC2 is a beastly game as well.. and I don't even play it.. I can't wait for the expansions.
XD
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On April 14 2011 08:49 IamBach wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 08:45 Turgid wrote:
Actually if you watch closely even high level Korean progamers in SC2 absolutely do not have perfect macro by any means. People get supply blocked and queue units all the time. There is a LOT of room for improvement on that front. Some are better than others, of course.
But right now in Brood War the strategies are "standardized" and the metagame STILL changes. I guess I'm just skeptical that either game will ever be totally figured out, because I've read TL posts literally from 2005(don't criticize what i do in my spare time) claiming that it was unlikely the game would get much more figured out than it already had been. Think about that.
I think you are underestimating the macro abilities of top SC2 players. I was watching a SC2 game between grubby and moon and literally the moment moon would lose a unit, his supply would go right back up to 200/200. Even Jaedong you see occisional delay in macro and when you watch stork, frequently during micro intensive moments his money goes up to like 1000.
Wait are you seriously comparing sc2 pros to BW pros?
Even average players like Lomo would smash most sc2 pros. I mean seriously, the best sc2 players are.. Iron (MC), Clare (Foxer), MVP, non-koreans, etc.
Just look at that lineup.. I would bet considerable amounts of money that even Airforce Ace would roll over them...
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On April 14 2011 09:45 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 08:49 IamBach wrote:On April 14 2011 08:45 Turgid wrote:
Actually if you watch closely even high level Korean progamers in SC2 absolutely do not have perfect macro by any means. People get supply blocked and queue units all the time. There is a LOT of room for improvement on that front. Some are better than others, of course.
But right now in Brood War the strategies are "standardized" and the metagame STILL changes. I guess I'm just skeptical that either game will ever be totally figured out, because I've read TL posts literally from 2005(don't criticize what i do in my spare time) claiming that it was unlikely the game would get much more figured out than it already had been. Think about that.
I think you are underestimating the macro abilities of top SC2 players. I was watching a SC2 game between grubby and moon and literally the moment moon would lose a unit, his supply would go right back up to 200/200. Even Jaedong you see occisional delay in macro and when you watch stork, frequently during micro intensive moments his money goes up to like 1000. Wait are you seriously comparing sc2 pros to BW pros? Even average players like Lomo would smash most sc2 pros. I mean seriously, the best sc2 players are.. Iron (MC), Clare (Foxer), MVP, non-koreans, etc. Just look at that lineup.. I would bet considerable amounts of money that even Airforce Ace would roll over them...
At BW no duh but at SC2 I doubt even Jaedong after playing SC2 for 5 months could beat Nestea 100 times out of 100 which is what he could do in BW. Theres just not that many ways you can be better than other players.
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On April 14 2011 09:06 Ledcaveman wrote:
sick of these blogs bitching about how sc2 is already somehow stale in comparison to ALL THESE OTHER GAMES WHICH HAVE BEEN OUT FOR YEARS. your line of argument is bullshit and illogical.
i wasnt into rts games when starcraft first came out. the other day i played vanilla and it was awful without all the broodwar units. why? because i was used to the variety. do i think sc2 is crap because ive not experienced the expansions? no.
i dont understand your need to bitch about a game which isnt even fully released & balanced. at least wait for the first expansion before getting your knickers in a twist over how a vanilla rts game is supposedly stale in comparison to another which has had an expansion or just kill yourself.
I love how non-confrontational the OP is, only to see a post like this...
Really?
I think a lot of these posts are more out-of-line than the OP (who is not at all actually).
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If you really like BW so much there are BW mods you can play in SC2. Heck the BW campaign was ported to SC2.
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Eh, I think once an opinion of the game boils down to just plain "feeling," then there isn't much that can be done to convince people otherwise.
BW is a brilliant game, and I think a lot of what make old BW fans love the game is a combinations of nostalgia and the game's phenomenal design. SC2 takes this old foundation and attempts to improve on it, though it's quite obvious that many of these "improvements" are quite controversial amongst BW fans.
IMO, I think it was nearly impossible for Blizzard to please both the casual audience who doesn't want a BW clone and the BW fans who wanted a BW remake. Of course, many on TL basically wanted a remake of BW with better graphics, possibly with the same old interface. After browsing more mainstream game sites and forums of other games, however, many non-BW fans are actually extremely skeptical about SC2 thinking that it's just a BW clone with none of the "improvements" that had evolved in the RTS genre since 1998.
Nevertheless, SC2 is still a fantastic RTS game and a great example of how an old-school RTS format can be used even after all these years of "improvements" in the genre. It's not BW, and it is, in some ways, inferior to BW. However, IMO it's still a damn good game that gets really close to being BW without actually being a copy. Honestly, other companies have really dropped the ball when trying to improve on their old RTS franchises (Age of Empires, Command and Conquer), and I think Blizzard has done the best job of making old-school RTS relevant in modern times.
It's not a perfect game, and it's not BW, but SC2 is still a damn good game. However, disliking the game is completely respectable, especially since it seems that OP is finding a lot of entertainment in alternative games besides BW. IMO, I'm not a fan of WC3 or DoTA simply because the gameplay looks quite sluggish and somewhat repetitive in them, especially in WC3 where unit lethality is low and durability is high. However, I do respect that there are features in those games that made them viable e-sports for a while.
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On April 14 2011 09:06 Ledcaveman wrote:
i dont understand your need to bitch about a game which isnt even fully released & balanced. at least wait for the first expansion before getting your knickers in a twist over how a vanilla rts game is supposedly stale in comparison to another which has had an expansion or just kill yourself.
Don't forget what sc2 is doing for esports either.
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On April 14 2011 10:08 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:06 Ledcaveman wrote:
i dont understand your need to bitch about a game which isnt even fully released & balanced. at least wait for the first expansion before getting your knickers in a twist over how a vanilla rts game is supposedly stale in comparison to another which has had an expansion or just kill yourself. Don't forget what sc2 is doing for esports either.
Nothing good IMO. Blizzard is suing the best BW/esport providers because of it.
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On April 14 2011 09:48 Tipany wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 09:06 Ledcaveman wrote:
sick of these blogs bitching about how sc2 is already somehow stale in comparison to ALL THESE OTHER GAMES WHICH HAVE BEEN OUT FOR YEARS. your line of argument is bullshit and illogical.
i wasnt into rts games when starcraft first came out. the other day i played vanilla and it was awful without all the broodwar units. why? because i was used to the variety. do i think sc2 is crap because ive not experienced the expansions? no.
i dont understand your need to bitch about a game which isnt even fully released & balanced. at least wait for the first expansion before getting your knickers in a twist over how a vanilla rts game is supposedly stale in comparison to another which has had an expansion or just kill yourself. I love how non-confrontational the OP is, only to see a post like this... Really? I think a lot of these posts are more out-of-line than the OP (who is not at all actually).
+1.
Exactly, you might want to tone down your tone there, caveman. Absolutely no need to tell someone to kill themselves just because they don't like your game. The OP wasn't being aggressive about his opinion. No need to be aggressive about yours.
P.S.: I just saw that you've already been banned once for calling someone a moron. 1 in 27 is not too phenomenal. You'll probably want to chill out with the personal attacks if you want to hang around in the long term.
P.P.S.: I don't think that you've got a valid opinion on vanilla SC at all. You're drawing conclusions about it based on the fact that you played it "the other day"? In the interest of improving your familiarity with vanilla, I'll gladly play some games with you. I tend to think that I could show you a variety of viable strategies!
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EPT
