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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
It grows when we provide an outstanding educational system that then grows a new generation of inventors, entrepreneurs, artists, scientists and thinkers who come up with the next great idea for the planet. And how does one provide an outstanding education system? Let me put it this way, Washington DC has the third highest per pupil spending in the nation (I'm guessing of the 50 states + DC), yet their (public) schools are an unmitigated disaster. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32073 Posts
On March 09 2011 02:02 nath wrote: I enjoyed lots of your points Hawk but I just wanted to let you (and others who seem to not know this) know: (I'm in Madison, state capitol, go to school there) the unions officially stated that they were 100% WILLING to take all paycuts and even benefit cuts as long as they kept their bargaining rights.... Walker said no. this is more ideological, using the budget balancing that is needed to support something that would otherwise not fly. Yeah I thought I had read that too. I'd imagine that the governor's stance is based on how far left arbitrators and courts lean should negotiations ever make it that far. And the fact that the union will surely come back at the end of this deal or next once the economy has improve and try to compensate for taking a hit here For instance, in the height of the recession, local govts here in NJ were still getting hammered at negotiation because most of the instances that had gone to an arbitrator, the unions came away with most of what they were asking. The system is effectively gamed so that union have way more leverage than the government in negotiation. I think this goes towards restoring that balance a bit. | ||
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
On March 09 2011 00:39 Hawk wrote: Adjustable rate mortgages were the culprit I believe?? Google comes up with a ton of stuff on that and other options. This isn't stuff that was hidden prior to the crash. All stuff that, if you're serious about spending $500k or something of that nature, you'd look at before hand. Variable rate mortgages didn't cause the financial crisis. I'm not even sure where you guys got that information. If you want to simplify the entire asset-backed security meltdown, it was because the property bubble burst. People were borrowing beyond their means (as you guys mentioned and how this is related to the topic) and when their "speculative" house decreased in value, they were fucked or they walked away from it. Everyone from consumers to bankers to legislators were to blame. On topic: America isn't broke; the country just creates money out of nothing. America is insolvent though and based on Obama's budget and future projections, it'll only get worse. | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On March 09 2011 00:05 Hawk wrote: Also funny is that he is acting as if public employees aren't the single biggest drain on any municipality or state. Attend your local budget meeting. See just how much salary some retard who barely passed high school gets for picking up downed trees at the DPW. Then prepare to punch yourself in the head when you realize he's probably getting benefits you could only dream of and he'll get $50k-ish a year for life on his pension when he retires after 20-25 years at fucking 55. On a local, county and state level, the biggest expenditures are almost always for government employees, who get ridiculous benefits that they contribute next to nothing for. To say that it isn't a major issue means you are a goddamn idiot. I've already seen the aggregate numbers for public\private employees (Public are underpaid for education). Took up your offer anyway: http://www.leg.wa.gov/Senate/Committees/WM/Documents/Publications/BudgetGuides/2010/CGTB2010Final_3.pdf I live in one of the most heavily unionized states. Salaries and benefits are 23% of state expenditures. States are currently suffering from a drop in revenue, no magic involved. The Feds were picking up the tab for two years, but Republicans will never sign on to another stimulus, even if it is just transfer payments. Maybe states could just enlarge their slave labor program and we can compete with prisoners for wages. On March 09 2011 00:45 mahnini wrote: yeah man, what would we do without our $300 smartphones and $50/month data plan to surf facebook with??? s-st--str---strawman spotted! | ||
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IamBach
United States1059 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32073 Posts
On March 09 2011 07:27 Romantic wrote: Maybe states could just enlarge their slave labor program and we can compete with prisoners for wages. strawman, meet your good buddy, hyperbole! http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/03/local_nj_governments_school_di.html those numbers sure aren't concerning. Almost every city or state has searchable public employee salaries. Look up a few before you start talking about slave labor On March 09 2011 06:09 Durak wrote: While this is farther off-topic than I hope to be, I figure I'll address Spiritofthetuna/Hawk for clarification. Variable rate mortgages didn't cause the financial crisis. I'm not even sure where you guys got that information. If you want to simplify the entire asset-backed security meltdown, it was because the property bubble burst. People were borrowing beyond their means (as you guys mentioned and how this is related to the topic) and when their "speculative" house decreased in value, they were fucked or they walked away from it. Everyone from consumers to bankers to legislators were to blame. On topic: America isn't broke; the country just creates money out of nothing. America is insolvent though and based on Obama's budget and future projections, it'll only get worse. while i may have had the type of mortgage wrong, I still think the same concept of not getting into shit you can't possibly afford/understand still applies. That was more in response to someone implying that the mess was entirely on the backs of bankers | ||
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Hellhammer
Canada144 Posts
On March 09 2011 03:00 Milkis wrote: Why is he appealing to economics when he has zero economic intuition what so ever. The rich already pay more taxes than the poor percentage wise. How is that not their fair share? And the implication that all of these people just blow it all on Wall Street as a "Scheme"? Sounds like someone has zero idea of how the financial system works. How does he have the gall to imply that the economy runs on innovations but never mention that innovation comes with risks, which is exactly what happened with wall street? People like this make me sick. I can't even get myself to read the rest of this bullshit ~_~ Lol.. How ignorant are you, by the way? You say that innovation comes with risks, that should be well above obvious. What you fail to understand is that these highly intellectual and well educated 'wallstreets' take the risk with no risk for themselves, and all the risk on the public people; in other words they are corporate psychopaths. This is the cause for the 'bubble' and the 2008 market collapse. If you don't read enough, maybe tackle something easier, and try watching the documentary 'Inside Job.' By the sounds of it, you'll think its a conspiracy film, but that's up for your closed-minded brain to decide.. Also, I need to lol at the Michael Moore millionaire hate. If you don't like the guy, so be it. He is rather bias on a lot of things, but it's always for the better of the people. But to attack the fat bastard because he has a few million? Lol..... Perhaps people don't fully understand the concept of a million vs a billion: A million seconds is 13 days. A billion seconds is 31 years. Do we somewhat see the difference here? Darwin did say "The mind cannot possibly grasp the full meaning of the term of even a million years..." Of course he was right. Anyway... after reading all the posts, I best fit in with what Tuna has to say. I think Hawk has some strong opinions, but they are just opinions backing up opinions  OK now this is wrong : On March 09 2011 03:13 419 wrote: And how does one provide an outstanding education system? Let me put it this way, Washington DC has the third highest per pupil spending in the nation (I'm guessing of the 50 states + DC), yet their (public) schools are an unmitigated disaster. You may not have been informed, which is ok. I want you to try and get over the concept that, if you throw money at something, that something probably won't do anything but pick the money up. But if you tell that something to do what they are suppose to do, they will use that money to do it. The reason tests scores are so low in DC is because the unions are the strongest there and protect worthless scum teachers. There has been a recorded case of a teacher dunking a students head into a toilet, for whatever reason, and the teacher is protected because of tenure. The concept 'lemon dance' was created because of these unions and because of tenure. Education grows a better economy. Education WILL fix America without a question, and I challenge anyone to say otherwise. And throwing money at it is not the correct way. The correct way is to abolish tenure, and get real with the really bad teachers. I'm not even saying firing the teachers (some of them, yes) will do the trick. Training teachers properly; using technology to watch what children are doing in the classroom, so experts can give advice; fixing the public education system. Without public education, stupid people will get stupider. And the rich will get richer, but fewer. Eventually these drop out factories will close down, and foreign labor will be way above the vast majority. Here is a fun fact: 123 million jobs will be high skilled, high paid by 2020. Only 50 million Americans will be qualified to preform those jobs. It's time to for American's to fix their public education system. What is worst of all, American politics don't give a shit about education. Every president since, what, JFK has said education is #1 and I will fix it. And every president doesn't do shit about education because it's not good for their party. There is no direct reward to spending a couple years and taking a huge massive risk and lots of their resources to help their children of tomorrow. Instead they tackle war on drugs and terrorism. So really, it's left to a few individuals who care about tomorrow, but they are left to go against a union that is basically unbeatable. | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On March 09 2011 07:33 Hawk wrote: strawman, meet your good buddy, hyperbole! http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/03/local_nj_governments_school_di.html those numbers sure aren't concerning. Almost every city or state has searchable public employee salaries. Look up a few before you start talking about slave labor If you are going to exaggerate compensation I will exaggerate the prison industry *crosses arms*. 80 Cents an hour is a lot closer to slavery than public employees are to grossly over payed. And 8% rise in pensions doesn't tell me anything. What portion of their budget is devoted to pensions? An 8% rise in 10% of the budget is a tiny amount of the overall budget. What does your overall budget look like? If your government failed to hire accountants that could tell them that public sector labor costs are shifted down the road that is their bad. Yearly compensation for public employees in aggregate and adjusted for educational attainments is low. Maybe you could adjust for compensation per hour worked and public sector employees would come out ahead... but I can't find that and it just means private employees work too much and need their own unions >  | ||
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SCbiff
110 Posts
On March 09 2011 01:22 Tuneful wrote: The idea that the mortgage crisis was caused by people signing mortgages they "knew they couldn't afford" is too simple an interpretation. It takes two to tango: the banks offering the morgages knew (without a doubt) that the people they were selling to were too risky a bet, and didn't even bother asking for documentation (no-doc loans). On top of that, any "people living beyond their means" or "they knew they couldn't afford it" explanation completely avoids the re-packaging and sale of these mortgages into securities and Moody's role in giving fraudulent AAA ratings to toxic assets, and how these ratings led A.I.G to insure something it would not have if Moody's had assigned a real rating. I don't believe that people signed mortgages they knew that they couldn't afford, I believe that they were ignorant. And I'm sorry, but ignorant isn't an excuse. When you are signing a contract, it is YOUR responsibility to understand it and YOU are taking the responsibility of fulfilling it. That means, you need to look at what it says and understand it, and most importantly, asses your ability to comply ESPECIALLY IF THINGS GO BAD! If you don't understand, then you need to not sign the contract until you do. I don't disagree with you that saying stupid people signed mortgages they shouldn't have is an oversimplification of the issue, but the fact is, if they'd hadn't signed them that problem wouldn't have happened. I'm one of those idiots who listened to people when I was young and have tried very hard my entire life to stay out of debt. Boy do I feel like a fool now. I could have stuck my head in the sand, bought a mansion, and then after the crash sat around complaining about how I was "duped." | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On March 09 2011 03:00 Milkis wrote: Why is he appealing to economics when he has zero economic intuition what so ever. The rich already pay more taxes than the poor percentage wise. How is that not their fair share? And the implication that all of these people just blow it all on Wall Street as a "Scheme"? Sounds like someone has zero idea of how the financial system works. How does he have the gall to imply that the economy runs on innovations but never mention that innovation comes with risks, which is exactly what happened with wall street? People like this make me sick. I can't even get myself to read the rest of this bullshit ~_~ How is it not their fair share? Well, interestingly enough, it deals with innovation and the financial system (although gov't too). See, the rich on wallstreet often aren't paying for those risks, at least, not their full extent. They know that bailouts are inevitable, therefore they take in more risk than they should, negative externalities in other words. Of course, when those risks pay off, they take the money. When they don't, they pay some, but when they REALLY screw up, the gov't(tax payers, not just rich) pays. http://www.minneapolisfed.org/pubs/eppapers/10-3/eppaper10-3_taxrisk.pdf http://www.minneapolisfed.org/pubs/region/10-06/taxrisk.pdf | ||
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allluckysevens7777
United States53 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
Money isn't something that should be equally distributed. And wealth can be created by anyone. | ||
Milkis
5003 Posts
Lol.. How ignorant are you, by the way? You say that innovation comes with risks, that should be well above obvious. What you fail to understand is that these highly intellectual and well educated 'wallstreets' take the risk with no risk for themselves, and all the risk on the public people; in other words they are corporate psychopaths. This is the cause for the 'bubble' and the 2008 market collapse. If you don't read enough, maybe tackle something easier, and try watching the documentary 'Inside Job.' By the sounds of it, you'll think its a conspiracy film, but that's up for your closed-minded brain to decide.. Please don't act like I failed to understand anything. My point was a more general one pointing out the fact that the risks came from a financial innovations, which is what caused the crisis. It did not matter in the end if the government bailed them out (which does create twisted incentives, but that is hardly besides the point). It's obvious that liberal hacks like you who like to paint this utterly biased picture of the world who like to twist things around to bring support to their story. I guess that isn't hard, considering that most people aren't actually educated enough to understand economics. But it's utterly hilarious how you believe you know what caused the bubble (hint: there was no guarantee that the banks would be bailed out -- in fact, many banks did fail at this point). The world isn't as simple as you think it is, but calling someone "closed minded" is utterly hilarious especially when you're buying into the entire michael moore bullshit anyway. Then again, I don't expect too much from brainwashed hypocritical liberals anyway. How is it not their fair share? Well, interestingly enough, it deals with innovation and the financial system (although gov't too). See, the rich on wallstreet often aren't paying for those risks, at least, not their full extent. They know that bailouts are inevitable, therefore they take in more risk than they should, negative externalities in other words. Of course, when those risks pay off, they take the money. When they don't, they pay some, but when they REALLY screw up, the gov't(tax payers, not just rich) pays. Again, that wasn't even my point when I said things about innovation. My point is completely unrelated to people with twisted incentives or else I would have mentioned it. My point is that while Michael Moore charades about how innovations are important in the Economy he fails to realize that it is the same type of innovations that come with risks and at times blow up the economy. It didn't matter that yes, there were perverse incentives, but perverse incentives is hardly the entire picture -- it was more closer to the fact that people didn't understand how much at risk they were since they did not fully understand the innovations they were using. Do not act as if these "inevitable bailouts" were the cause of the financial system's downfall -- there were much deeper issues than that. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On March 09 2011 00:18 Hawk wrote: If you can't be bothered to do your own, independent research on mortgages prior to agreeing on a purchase of several hundred thousands of dollars, yes, you are an idiot. Plain and simple, it is a lack of accountability. How is that any different than going car shopping and being like 'oh well the salesman told me this car is way under value and it's totally fine, let me skip all inspection, research and screw shopping to compare prices' People buying things they can't afford is a tradition in this country, as is passing the blame. What's even more wonderful is that the people who did live within their means and don't carry insane, unpayable debt don't get the government to help them out. e; if you don't understand the logic that goes into a $500,000 transaction, you shouldn't be buying a house until you figure out the process. The whole thing can be summed up as a bunch of dumbasses buying on a whim instead of doing research. Totally Agree. For the most part, state and local workers are overpaid, but there are exceptions. Example My dad has a masters. He makes 79k/yr before taxes. They hire consultants who make 160k a year to do the same job he could do, because they are furloughing him. It's pretty stupid. Also, the IT guy at our school who knows 900% less than I do gets 130k/yr. Government just sucks at determining pay. | ||
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maahes`ra
United States255 Posts
On March 09 2011 13:36 Milkis wrote: + Show Spoiler + Lol.. How ignorant are you, by the way? You say that innovation comes with risks, that should be well above obvious. What you fail to understand is that these highly intellectual and well educated 'wallstreets' take the risk with no risk for themselves, and all the risk on the public people; in other words they are corporate psychopaths. This is the cause for the 'bubble' and the 2008 market collapse. If you don't read enough, maybe tackle something easier, and try watching the documentary 'Inside Job.' By the sounds of it, you'll think its a conspiracy film, but that's up for your closed-minded brain to decide.. Please don't act like I failed to understand anything. My point was a more general one pointing out the fact that the risks came from a financial innovations, which is what caused the crisis. It did not matter in the end if the government bailed them out (which does create twisted incentives, but that is hardly besides the point). It's obvious that liberal hacks like you who like to paint this utterly biased picture of the world who like to twist things around to bring support to their story. I guess that isn't hard, considering that most people aren't actually educated enough to understand economics. But it's utterly hilarious how you believe you know what caused the bubble (hint: there was no guarantee that the banks would be bailed out -- in fact, many banks did fail at this point). The world isn't as simple as you think it is, but calling someone "closed minded" is utterly hilarious especially when you're buying into the entire michael moore bullshit anyway. Then again, I don't expect too much from brainwashed hypocritical liberals anyway. How is it not their fair share? Well, interestingly enough, it deals with innovation and the financial system (although gov't too). See, the rich on wallstreet often aren't paying for those risks, at least, not their full extent. They know that bailouts are inevitable, therefore they take in more risk than they should, negative externalities in other words. Of course, when those risks pay off, they take the money. When they don't, they pay some, but when they REALLY screw up, the gov't(tax payers, not just rich) pays. Again, that wasn't even my point when I said things about innovation. My point is completely unrelated to people with twisted incentives or else I would have mentioned it. My point is that while Michael Moore charades about how innovations are important in the Economy he fails to realize that it is the same type of innovations that come with risks and at times blow up the economy. It didn't matter that yes, there were perverse incentives, but perverse incentives is hardly the entire picture -- it was more closer to the fact that people didn't understand how much at risk they were since they did not fully understand the innovations they were using. Do not act as if these "inevitable bailouts" were the cause of the financial system's downfall -- there were much deeper issues than that. While I agree with what you said fundamentally I don't think creating money out of thin air then gambling on fake money using the pocket of the middle class as your bankroll is a good form of innovation. That is to say, it's been a while since we had a really good example - I might cite the rise of Google as the last 'good' example of innovation. Banking and mathematics/engineering students are a bad mix, though. That shit has to stop. | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 09 2011 15:58 maahes wrote: While I agree with what you said fundamentally I don't think creating money out of thin air then gambling on fake money using the pocket of the middle class as your bankroll is a good form of innovation. That is to say, it's been a while since we had a really good example - I might cite the rise of Google as the last 'good' example of innovation. Banking and mathematics/engineering students are a bad mix, though. That shit has to stop. I don't think you understand what the financial system is nor do you understand what it does and what kind of innovations occur in there :| | ||
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maahes`ra
United States255 Posts
On March 09 2011 16:03 Milkis wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 09 2011 15:58 maahes wrote: While I agree with what you said fundamentally I don't think creating money out of thin air then gambling on fake money using the pocket of the middle class as your bankroll is a good form of innovation. That is to say, it's been a while since we had a really good example - I might cite the rise of Google as the last 'good' example of innovation. Banking and mathematics/engineering students are a bad mix, though. That shit has to stop. I don't think you understand what the financial system is nor do you understand what it does and what kind of innovations occur in there :| Then educate me. o: | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
Are you aware of derivatives, packaging of debt, etc? | ||
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maahes`ra
United States255 Posts
On March 09 2011 16:12 Froadac wrote: + Show Spoiler + Are you aware of derivatives, packaging of debt, etc? Pretty fluent, I suppose. I'm an econ student at a top 30 business school and before that I was in the Industrial Engineering program in that school which was top 3 when I enrolled in 2008. I spent a semester last spring in a five-person class learning why the meltdown happened and what systems perpetrated it, so I'm curious what I'm missing but completely open minded. | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
On March 09 2011 16:20 maahes wrote: Pretty fluent, I suppose. I'm an econ student at a top 30 business school and before that I was in the Industrial Engineering program in that school which was top 3 when I enrolled in 2008. I spent a semester last spring in a five-person class learning why the meltdown happened and what systems perpetrated it, so I'm curious what I'm missing but completely open minded. I don't know what milkis is getting at: just was asking a question that a majority of the people on these forums cant' answer >.> What business school are you going to? (and what program was industrial engineering...) | ||
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