• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:43
CEST 21:43
KST 04:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence3Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups2WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia7Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues
Tourneys
WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 General Discussion Playing StarCraft as 2 people on the same network
Tourneys
Is there English video for group selection for ASL [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [ASL20] Ro16 Group B [IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Borderlands 3
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Big Programming Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1383 users

Expect more all-in TvZ games in SC2 - Page 14

Blogs > avilo
Post a Reply
Prev 1 12 13 14 15 16 18 Next All
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
November 29 2010 19:20 GMT
#261
sooooooo...with jinro's input, and everyone else's, and my own...SC2 TvZ/ZvT is boiled down to this right now:

Terran autoloses in macro game on bullshit maps like cross meta, shakuras, scrap, or any game where Zerg manages to make it into the same equivalent long game scenario. So in situations where Zerg can manage to get steppes, jungle, delta...into a long game...then Zerg can win...

Zerg autoloses on bullshit maps like jungle basin, steppes, delta quadrant, where the positions are close, and Terran can constantly keep the pressure to prevent the zerg "re-max macro machine." Or Zerg loses when Terran can miraculously turn those large maps into the equivalent short game scenarios by gaining momentum through drops, attacks, all-ins...then Terran can win....

This is pretty much what I've said all along but it seems pretty shitty that the match-up is so based on these horrible maps, and that if the game is forced long, then Zerg wins, if it's kept short then Terran wins...

Sound accurate? though this is what I've pretty much said the entire time

Like sadist said above me...

+ Show Spoiler +
...and as predicted...the Terran all-ins/aggro continue in GSL. And the map pool continues to rape Terrans/Zergs viciously. Though fruitdealer managed to get through his maps opponent miraculously.


Sup
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
November 29 2010 20:06 GMT
#262
So...Zergs win, except when Terran does something and Zerg doesn't win.

Very astute.
TranslatorBaa!
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 20:51:20
November 29 2010 20:46 GMT
#263
On November 30 2010 05:06 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
So...Zergs win, except when Terran does something and Zerg doesn't win.

Very astute.


Nice try. But no. Not at all. You missed the entire point, or you just feel like more derailment is fun.
Anyways, the map pool is the huge issue right now.

And it's much different from brood war because in brood war there never was such a, "if Zerg defends they autowin."

Terran could compete in a passive macromanagement late game with mass science vessels, or even mass tank mech. Obv you wanted to delay or kill Zerg's third just as you do now, but there wasn't so much of a "if I don't kill the third then I lose from here."

That's how SC2 is right now...you have the situations on steppes, and jungle where T dominates, then you have every other situation where Z is dominating scrap and long distance positions by defending to late game then winning with re-maxed armys of broods/ultras.

Terran really doesn't have the same late game fighting power or efficiency because there's nothing like science vessels or sc1 tanks that are that cost effective. (Ravens suck).

So it's Terran -> suicide suicide suicide try to do damage get momentum -> have momentum mid-late game to win.
Sup
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
November 29 2010 20:47 GMT
#264
I agree with avilo, never account for player skill at all.
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
November 29 2010 20:50 GMT
#265
On November 30 2010 04:20 avilo wrote:
Or Zerg loses when Terran can miraculously turn those large maps into the equivalent short game scenarios by gaining momentum through drops, attacks, all-ins...then Terran can win....



That's what you said. When Terrans decide to gain momentum as you say through whatever means, they can win.

Actually earlier you said

And do not expect Terrans to win even with this stuff


Hmm.

You're full of crap and now you're just backpedaling since other players are actually calling you on on it. And over the course of this thread when you realized that people knew you were full of crap, you tried to turn this conversation into one about the maps, which you made zero mention of in your original "bawwwww Terrans can't win against Zerg master race" post.
TranslatorBaa!
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 20:59:04
November 29 2010 20:54 GMT
#266
On November 30 2010 05:50 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 04:20 avilo wrote:
Or Zerg loses when Terran can miraculously turn those large maps into the equivalent short game scenarios by gaining momentum through drops, attacks, all-ins...then Terran can win....



That's what you said. When Terrans decide to gain momentum as you say through whatever means, they can win.

Actually earlier you said

Show nested quote +
And do not expect Terrans to win even with this stuff


Hmm.

You're full of crap and now you're just backpedaling since other players are actually calling you on on it. And over the course of this thread when you realized that people knew you were full of crap, you tried to turn this conversation into one about the maps, which you made zero mention of in your original "bawwwww Terrans can't win against Zerg master race" post.


It's "gimmicky" though on how Terrans are able to get that momentum and a massive dice roll. The top Zergs and solid Zergs can defend it with ease into that invincible late game style.

I'm not backpedaling at all, the stuff I said earlier still holds true. Yes, I am including maps more into the convo, as their shittiness is coming more and more into the spotlight. As well as the fact that jinro mentioned them.

I think regardless of the map, once Z reaches that lategame stage...T dies. But obviously on steppes/jungle Z struggle to get there. All I pointed out is that Terrans are obviously trying to play the larger maps with the all-in/aggro gimmicks to turn those map into a steppes of war/jungle basin type of scenario so that it is possible to win...

Hence all the TvZ all-ins, and "beta-like" gimmicks, which is what this thread is about too. So no, not full of crap at all.

Sup
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
November 29 2010 21:00 GMT
#267
Its only in the past year that Terrans have really learned how to play lategame against a 4gas Zerg in BW. For years and years before that a 4gas Zerg was considered to be unbeatable in standard TvZ. The whole lategame mass tank transition didn't exist until very recently. So yes, there really was a "if I let him stabilize his fourth then I'm going to autolose to ultras and swarm"
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 22:54:15
November 29 2010 22:50 GMT
#268
On November 30 2010 06:00 koreasilver wrote:
Its only in the past year that Terrans have really learned how to play lategame against a 4gas Zerg in BW. For years and years before that a 4gas Zerg was considered to be unbeatable in standard TvZ. The whole lategame mass tank transition didn't exist until very recently. So yes, there really was a "if I let him stabilize his fourth then I'm going to autolose to ultras and swarm"


Now imagine 4 gas SC1 Zerg with larva inject, and SC1 ultras that demolish SC1 tanks. And also imagine that instead of uber goliaths you have goliaths 4x the size that deal barely any damage to guardians.

oh, and defilers now are at tier2 and plague also ensnares

Sup
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21243 Posts
November 29 2010 23:03 GMT
#269
On November 30 2010 07:50 avilo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 06:00 koreasilver wrote:
Its only in the past year that Terrans have really learned how to play lategame against a 4gas Zerg in BW. For years and years before that a 4gas Zerg was considered to be unbeatable in standard TvZ. The whole lategame mass tank transition didn't exist until very recently. So yes, there really was a "if I let him stabilize his fourth then I'm going to autolose to ultras and swarm"


Now imagine 4 gas SC1 Zerg with larva inject, and SC1 ultras that demolish SC1 tanks. And also imagine that instead of uber goliaths you have goliaths 4x the size that deal barely any damage to guardians.

oh, and defilers now are at tier2 and plague also ensnares



And Goliathes do 10x the damage to everything else and are 10x as durable, and Dark Swarm doesn't exist.

Yeah I can pick and choose to make stupid comparisons too ~_~
TranslatorBaa!
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
November 29 2010 23:40 GMT
#270
On November 30 2010 08:03 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 07:50 avilo wrote:
On November 30 2010 06:00 koreasilver wrote:
Its only in the past year that Terrans have really learned how to play lategame against a 4gas Zerg in BW. For years and years before that a 4gas Zerg was considered to be unbeatable in standard TvZ. The whole lategame mass tank transition didn't exist until very recently. So yes, there really was a "if I let him stabilize his fourth then I'm going to autolose to ultras and swarm"


Now imagine 4 gas SC1 Zerg with larva inject, and SC1 ultras that demolish SC1 tanks. And also imagine that instead of uber goliaths you have goliaths 4x the size that deal barely any damage to guardians.

oh, and defilers now are at tier2 and plague also ensnares



And Goliathes do 10x the damage to everything else and are 10x as durable, and Dark Swarm doesn't exist.

Yeah I can pick and choose to make stupid comparisons too ~_~


Actually you could have included your comparisons with the ones I made, and it'd still be a "wow" type of point.

The economics of SC1 Zerg/Terran and SC2 Zerg/Terran are completely different. That was the point I was trying to make. Try not to nit pick it please
Sup
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
November 29 2010 23:43 GMT
#271
Yeah, but his comparisons are actually right.

As anti-air, thors are garbage against anything but muta/phoenix/banshee, and there's no way terran can reinforce thors at the same speed as Z can reinforce ultras.

I'm not sure why you're arguing with a better player CS. You're known to have terran hateposts in bw live report threads as well and now you're obviously continuing this tradition to sc2, even though you probably don't even play it and have no idea about the gameflow.
Can we see a link to your bnet profile please?
SCC-Faust
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3736 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-29 23:47:28
November 29 2010 23:47 GMT
#272
On November 30 2010 08:43 Sadistx wrote:
Can we see a link to your bnet profile please?


Why do you come in here ever so often to start shit?

Someone already used this argument back a few pages.
And it was retorted too - when ret replied, and IdrA replied also, do I need to link YOU to their bnet profile page?

I want to fuck Soulkey with a Zelderan.
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
November 30 2010 00:07 GMT
#273
On November 30 2010 08:47 SCC-Faust wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 08:43 Sadistx wrote:
Can we see a link to your bnet profile please?


Why do you come in here ever so often to start shit?

Someone already used this argument back a few pages.
And it was retorted too - when ret replied, and IdrA replied also, do I need to link YOU to their bnet profile page?



Hilarious that you're actually accusing ME of starting shit when there are dozens of drone iconed posters blatantly bashing a top player.

Idra and ret can do it, because they are IdrA and ret. Is CS a top player? I didn't think so.

I come in here often, because it's a thread that interests me greatly and I'm hoping to see someone good reply to avilo aside from IdrA or ret. Unfortunately all I see is more bashing.
bbq ftw
Profile Joined September 2010
United States139 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 02:52:57
November 30 2010 02:52 GMT
#274
Hilarious that you're actually accusing ME of starting shit when there are dozens of drone iconed posters blatantly bashing a top player.

Seriously?

"Your post count on TL directly impacts your ability to put together a cogent argument." (If that were true, CharlieMurphy would be President)

Also, interestingly, one's Bnet rank doesn't correlate with the ability to spot logical errors, overreach, or backpedaling in posts. For example:
-"every high level TvZ will involve gimmicks" isn't equivalent to "every high level TvZ except on non-bullshit maps involves gimmicks"
-All counter evidence attacking my ability to objectively separate player skill and inherent imbalance = derail
-All reductio ad absurdums that make me look bad = derail
and in the interests of repeatedly beating a long dead horse:
-"Zerg doesn't use nydus enough" isn't equivalent to "Zerg should put down 10 nyduses at once"
-A constantly fluctuating standard of "good terran" and "good zerg" that to some verges on a double standard (any zerg that loses is automatically bad bad bad, any terran wins are immediately chalked up to bullshit maps)

etc.

Other statements:
Terrans already "know how to use their units" very well.

I'm going to go out on a prophetic limb here and say that come a few months that will be proved quite wrong (re: Sadistx, no, "show me your bnet profile" is not a valid counterargument).

I don't actually disagree with the thrust of your points, its just that the way you present it is...just bad. If you took the time to qualify your points, it leaves you less vulnerable to what you call 'derails'.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
November 30 2010 02:57 GMT
#275
On November 30 2010 09:07 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 08:47 SCC-Faust wrote:
On November 30 2010 08:43 Sadistx wrote:
Can we see a link to your bnet profile please?


Why do you come in here ever so often to start shit?

Someone already used this argument back a few pages.
And it was retorted too - when ret replied, and IdrA replied also, do I need to link YOU to their bnet profile page?



Hilarious that you're actually accusing ME of starting shit when there are dozens of drone iconed posters blatantly bashing a top player.

hes not a top player. he cheeses, takes his percentage wins, then spends all his time bitching about the fact that he cant win after his bullshit fails.
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 03:01:16
November 30 2010 02:59 GMT
#276
Calling out 'logical errors, overreach, or backpedaling' doesn't do shit for developing the discussing except boost ego.

I'd rather see good players discuss the topic and tear it down if inaccurate than a sea of 'hurr look ur bad' from randoms. A few posts from ret/idra are worth a lot more.
news
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
892 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 03:19:04
November 30 2010 03:17 GMT
#277
Yeah it's a bit early to throw "top player" around, I don't think anyone who played bw or wc3 for at least 4-5 years and wasn't relevant can just claim to be that. If you played bw for years and never broke B on iccup you cannot suddenly become a "top player" on sc2 either. Maybe you still can maintain a decent percent win ratio but time will settle everything. Matchups get figured out now, superior mechanics and multitasking will eventually outweight "gimmicky" plays. That's why TLO and huk and many others are starting to have problems. If avilo (or any of them) was anywhere close to his full potential while playing bw it will be problematic for him to break that ceiling. If they weren't - potentially sky is the limit, but it will take time.

Also sadistx needs to calm down, guy has anger issues. Would be sweet if he was any good himself.
"Althought it sounds sexism, and probably is, given the right context, we cannot classify the statement itself as a sexist statement by itself," - evanthebouncy!
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 30 2010 03:23 GMT
#278
On November 30 2010 06:00 koreasilver wrote:
Its only in the past year that Terrans have really learned how to play lategame against a 4gas Zerg in BW. For years and years before that a 4gas Zerg was considered to be unbeatable in standard TvZ. The whole lategame mass tank transition didn't exist until very recently. So yes, there really was a "if I let him stabilize his fourth then I'm going to autolose to ultras and swarm"

I don't think that is accurate about BW... TvZ before ultra macro Flash mode was more about keeping the Vessel cloud alive than anything. I don't think anyone considered 4gas Zerg unbeatable (unless they were a whining C level player), but certainly the style popular in the proscene was two-base heavy army heavy harass terran, which by it's nature requires successful attacks. But you can back pretty far and see Terrans playing very macro heavy styles, especially on maps like Arcadia which is about 5 years ago now.

What was really happening with BW was that Zergs were teching super fast to defilers because of Savior, so leaving the Zerg alone was much more dangerous. These days Zergs are staying on Lair tech a little longer cause Terrans have gotten really good vs fast defiler play...

To be honest you need a few 100 pages to talk about how BW has evolved... Blanket statements like '200/200 terran is unbeatable TvP" and "4gas zerg is the end of the road TvZ" is just over simplified and wrong. The important factors in BW are not that the zerg has 4 gas, but how he got to it and where is opponent is at that point in time.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 03:26:00
November 30 2010 03:24 GMT
#279
On November 30 2010 11:57 IdrA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2010 09:07 Sadistx wrote:
On November 30 2010 08:47 SCC-Faust wrote:
On November 30 2010 08:43 Sadistx wrote:
Can we see a link to your bnet profile please?


Why do you come in here ever so often to start shit?

Someone already used this argument back a few pages.
And it was retorted too - when ret replied, and IdrA replied also, do I need to link YOU to their bnet profile page?



Hilarious that you're actually accusing ME of starting shit when there are dozens of drone iconed posters blatantly bashing a top player.

hes not a top player. he cheeses, takes his percentage wins, then spends all his time bitching about the fact that he cant win after his bullshit fails.


what or who are you talking about? lol? funny you just come into threads and randomly say something about so and so is bad and never actually input anything.
Sup
bbq ftw
Profile Joined September 2010
United States139 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-30 03:32:40
November 30 2010 03:26 GMT
#280
Calling out 'logical errors, overreach, or backpedaling' doesn't do shit for developing the discussing except boost ego.

Of course it does, unless "discussion" is really just a disguised form of "diamond points e-peen battle" (if it is, kindly inform me and I'll get out of the thread).

I agree that 'top players' are more likely to have correct arguments than terrible people like me, but they certainly aren't immune to bad logic.
Prev 1 12 13 14 15 16 18 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#23
RotterdaM882
TKL 420
SteadfastSC362
IndyStarCraft 303
PiGStarcraft278
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 882
TKL 420
SteadfastSC 362
IndyStarCraft 303
PiGStarcraft278
UpATreeSC 88
ZombieGrub63
NeuroSwarm 53
JuggernautJason50
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 2560
Shuttle 1489
EffOrt 956
Stork 368
Dewaltoss 204
ggaemo 189
hero 141
Rush 119
Hyuk 119
Mong 70
[ Show more ]
JYJ67
Mind 63
sSak 23
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Movie 13
Shine 12
Terrorterran 7
yabsab 5
Dota 2
Fuzer 165
Counter-Strike
ScreaM2015
pashabiceps578
Stewie2K187
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu397
Other Games
Grubby3033
FrodaN958
mouzStarbuck278
KnowMe171
C9.Mang0130
Trikslyr67
rGuardiaN36
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 161
• Psz 13
• davetesta11
• Reevou 1
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix15
• RayReign 10
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3360
• masondota22049
• Ler107
Other Games
• imaqtpie941
• Scarra846
• Shiphtur233
Upcoming Events
OSC
4h 17m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
14h 17m
Afreeca Starleague
14h 17m
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
2v2
15h 17m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 4h
LiuLi Cup
1d 15h
RSL Revival
2 days
Maru vs Reynor
Cure vs TriGGeR
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
4 days
BSL Team Wars
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Online Event
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Team Wars
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.