I wish everyone would post video rants, was pretty entertaining.
The issue is what the issue use to be for Zerg; back in beta it use to be Don't let Terran mass tanks or you lose. From my understanding now it is don't let Zerg sit at 200/200 food because for every minute they sit there; each hatchery gets another hatcher worth of larva(BW). So once you hit that 200/200 army mark and a Terran player is still turtleling -- You have as much unit production as your econ will allow.
To explain Avilo's point better about Jungle Basin; it is near impossible for a Zerg to get a 3rd base. This means in the late game the Zerg will only be on 1 mining base and the Terran will be on 1.25(mules) or 2.5; which makes it relatively easy to keep up with Zerg Unit Production.
Overall, the issue is that people treat SC2 like SC1; early game they are similar but in late game it is very different. In Broodwar you saw: **lots of hatcheries because there are no queens. A queen basically gives an extra hatchery worth of larvae every minute. **Protoss can't just summon forces anywhere, giving insta-reinforcements and more importantly stormss **Terran can sac SCV's and depend on mules late game letting their army be larger.
There are a lot of things you can't let your opponent do in SC2 and I personally don't mind it as it creates versatile match ups. Being Terran shouldn't mean you can turtle against any MU; you need to have an aggressive play style. Until there is a Zerg player that can stop an All-In 75% of the time; I would say the match up is fair overall but it does suck for the few Terrans out there who don't go bio.
On November 28 2010 12:19 LuckyFool wrote: storrzerg plays protoss anyway don't expect him to be able to relate to terran pain.
Your right, i probably won't be able to relate to "terran" pain (btw you should be in bed if your sick )
Well i watched the video. I had a little trouble understanding you since your pronunciation (maybe diction) of words wasn't super (where you drunk? if so that explains a lot)
I have seen a few tvz late games where terran wins on jungle basin. I recall one of the interviews the terran was talking about if the zerg goes for a center expansion its auto loss as long as the terran does what you said (tank up and push) Is it possible zergs are just playing wrong on that map and jungle basin isn't as imbalanced as you say?
I also find it hard to judge you as an expert on the tvz match up when you struggle with basics in that match up. Yet, i understand fully what you mean about 200z > 200t with being able to remax as op. When you play, you let the zerg get to that point. You let zerg control the game in every game i've seen of you play (few replays, a game or two vs catz on stream). In bw terran was all over the map with mnm pressuring the 3rd and the main/nat at the same time, never sitting. tvz had a really interesting way of evolving from the midgame to the late game. Can you imagine if a terran opened up bio and sat on 2 base vs 3 base/3gas zerg and waited for zerg to move out? That scenario is how you play tvz in sc2, You constantly sit which results in HUGE trouble late game. (no shit your going to have problems)
If you really think your a top player, why don't you try evolving your play around what you've said. Don't play with the intention of letting zerg max out and sit for 10 mins. (I'm not saying proxy rax every game, though thats a perfectly fine opening, just don't count on that as a win if you force a canceled hatch.)
I'd be more interested with what you have to say after playing with a different focus rather than your current whine about balance and map "poop"
On November 28 2010 11:37 avilo wrote: I made a rant/discussion video on thanksgiving
it's basically my TvZ discussion/rage posts in video format ^_^
What I can suggest:
Knowledge on what the Zerg is doing, good unit positioning and good micro. That is must what be done on the even maps while going into the mid/late game with a terran macro build. With more economic builds being possible on Zs part and the possibility to maybe get to late-game seemingly easier than before, Terran needs to make better usage of their units than previously. I'm not saying that it's an easy style to get used to, but wasn't terran mech play in broodwar a lot about harass and army positioning ?
If you do a slow push and can make it near the Z base when you engage, Zerg wont have time to remax and you should be able to continue pumping units out to reinforce (You should have a ton of buildings ready to pump out units, possibly even 1 unit on each queued for when you start losing units if you have the resources for it, waypoint them directly to reinforce). Progressively destroy creep tumors with the aid of scan/raven (remember that it's the tumor that gives vision, not the creep) and avoid engaging on creep as much as possible since it's much harder to get flanked off-creep, you may sometimes be forced to engage on creep if you want to be close enough to cause damage after he spends his max army on you.
Z forces will be seperated between his bases and it will take time for the units to mass up/position against your army (Ultralisks take 70 seconds, roaches 27 but die to tank fire and need to be massed to cause any form of damage, banelings 44, broodlords 74, the last two are if Z transforms them right away) so you could push on with reinforcements and cause quite a bit of damage while catching Z out of position. I'm not saying run in and try to destroy a few of his bases, just get positioning on a hatch or two or split Zs bases as you get reinforces to push furthur/take out an expo/mining base because you do have a period before Z remaxes.
If you do end up engaging Zs max army near your base, then yes, Z will most likely be able to remax and tech switch without you being able cause that much damage against his bases. I'm pretty sure that it would still be possible to drop expos during that time to pick off a mining/production base while he tries to spawn units. He won't have mutas to deny drops and won't have the forces to destroy your drops. When you see you've caused the damage, may it be the mining or hatchery/tech or even part of the army that just spawned from one of his expos, pick up and go back to your main army to make sure you don't lose your main force.
Every time I see qxc in a TvZ, I see him trying to go macro and honestly I see it having quite a bit of potential, he just has quite a few issues with unit positioning that he must sort out before being able to do something truly great. I would have checked a few more of his games before posting, but I've already surpassed by download limit, I could try to find a few reps of this style however and post them.
At least I'm glad you also think the map pool is pretty shitty ^^
I'm also going to send this by PM, since by now you mustn't read my posts very often since most of the time (I admit) I just bash you.
Edit: It may be possible to get forward bunkers/turrets when creep has receded enough, even just random buildings to make it harder to engage with his mainly low range/melee forces. Another thing I must add: in mid-late game situations, if he has amassed a muta army, don't be afraid to get a raven or two for defensive purpouses: PDD + Turrets make mutas life a living hell to engage a base because they won't be able to fend off the turrets easily until the PDD is down, and by that time your SCVs will be in position to repair. I think it would be best to test this out with the Unit tester beforehand though, I see it having a good defensive potential because it could deny muta harass and even whittle them down if they insist on attacking the base, PDDs last for quite a long time if their energy is not expended.
it's basically my TvZ discussion/rage posts in video format ^_^
Can we expect a song from you on christmas? something like 'Tis the season to nerf zergies imba-ba-ba-ba-ba, ba-ba-balanced'
I'm expecting a little different christmas song than yours:
Imbalanced imbalanced imba imba lanced Oh what fun it is to 1 base allin against zerg, sleigh Imbalanced imbalanced imba imba lanced FUCK YOU BLIZZ THIS IS THE SEASON TO NERF THESE ZERGIES YEAH !!!
But seriously, avilo has a point on 1 thing: that game was on jungle joke basin. But still whatever. Watch Nada vs Leenock on Shakuras Plateu, where Terran wins a macro game vs Zerg on a non-joke map.
So, I'm gonna have an answer someday, Avilo ? I thought you wanted people to discuss I didn't even bash you that time. I addressed part of your TvZ issues and I'm wondering what you think of it :[
On November 29 2010 07:58 Kurt_Russell wrote: So, I'm gonna have an answer someday, Avilo ? I thought you wanted people to discuss I didn't even bash you that time. I addressed part of your TvZ issues and I'm wondering what you think of it :[
"see baneling bust noobs"
thats his comment to everything lately He clearly doesn't want to further this discussion and would rather talk to people baiting him with stupid comments.
it's basically my TvZ discussion/rage posts in video format ^_^
What I can suggest:
Knowledge on what the Zerg is doing, good unit positioning and good micro. That is must what be done on the even maps while going into the mid/late game with a terran macro build. With more economic builds being possible on Zs part and the possibility to maybe get to late-game seemingly easier than before, Terran needs to make better usage of their units than previously. I'm not saying that it's an easy style to get used to, but wasn't terran mech play in broodwar a lot about harass and army positioning ?
If you do a slow push and can make it near the Z base when you engage, Zerg wont have time to remax and you should be able to continue pumping units out to reinforce (You should have a ton of buildings ready to pump out units, possibly even 1 unit on each queued for when you start losing units if you have the resources for it, waypoint them directly to reinforce). Progressively destroy creep tumors with the aid of scan/raven (remember that it's the tumor that gives vision, not the creep) and avoid engaging on creep as much as possible since it's much harder to get flanked off-creep, you may sometimes be forced to engage on creep if you want to be close enough to cause damage after he spends his max army on you.
Z forces will be seperated between his bases and it will take time for the units to mass up/position against your army (Ultralisks take 70 seconds, roaches 27 but die to tank fire and need to be massed to cause any form of damage, banelings 44, broodlords 74, the last two are if Z transforms them right away) so you could push on with reinforcements and cause quite a bit of damage while catching Z out of position. I'm not saying run in and try to destroy a few of his bases, just get positioning on a hatch or two or split Zs bases as you get reinforces to push furthur/take out an expo/mining base because you do have a period before Z remaxes.
If you do end up engaging Zs max army near your base, then yes, Z will most likely be able to remax and tech switch without you being able cause that much damage against his bases. I'm pretty sure that it would still be possible to drop expos during that time to pick off a mining/production base while he tries to spawn units. He won't have mutas to deny drops and won't have the forces to destroy your drops. When you see you've caused the damage, may it be the mining or hatchery/tech or even part of the army that just spawned from one of his expos, pick up and go back to your main army to make sure you don't lose your main force.
Every time I see qxc in a TvZ, I see him trying to go macro and honestly I see it having quite a bit of potential, he just has quite a few issues with unit positioning that he must sort out before being able to do something truly great. I would have checked a few more of his games before posting, but I've already surpassed by download limit, I could try to find a few reps of this style however and post them.
At least I'm glad you also think the map pool is pretty shitty ^^
I'm also going to send this by PM, since by now you mustn't read my posts very often since most of the time (I admit) I just bash you.
Edit: It may be possible to get forward bunkers/turrets when creep has receded enough, even just random buildings to make it harder to engage with his mainly low range/melee forces. Another thing I must add: in mid-late game situations, if he has amassed a muta army, don't be afraid to get a raven or two for defensive purpouses: PDD + Turrets make mutas life a living hell to engage a base because they won't be able to fend off the turrets easily until the PDD is down, and by that time your SCVs will be in position to repair. I think it would be best to test this out with the Unit tester beforehand though, I see it having a good defensive potential because it could deny muta harass and even whittle them down if they insist on attacking the base, PDDs last for quite a long time if their energy is not expended.
The stuff you're talking about is very general...Terrans already "know how to use their units" very well. On the even maps what you call "better unit usage" boils down to purposely sending out multiple drops and suiciding them in the hope you can do damage somewhere.
That's why I said "you have to play bad to play good." When you suicide random drops to places, you try to use that little harrass to expo yourself or get ahead momentum-wise so you win a little bit after that. The mid-late game is in a pretty bad state though that you have to play like that to be able to win.
As for "slow pushing," it's non-existent. Unless you're looking at games mostly on steppes of war, where yeah, you can slow tank push with marines, same on jungle basin...
On the bigger maps though...slow push means zerg gets their third...or just macros all their larva to kill your one push...which lets them immediately have that period to re-drone ahead of you while you're scrambling to defend after having your "slow push" broken.
The situations you're saying never come up in the way you're describing them in an actual game. When the game reaches mid-game, when Z has deflected all the damage, they're always ahead in workers and that's when muta harrass comes...which makes any push you describe impossible or destined to be picked apart.
The problem is you can't "avoid engaging on creep." You will always have to engage on creep TvZ, and when you do is when the Zerg has pumped just enough units to stop your army and then -> pump drones.
In beta and previously, Zergs were horrible with creep spread. Now you see top Zergs doing even x2-x4 creep tumors at once specifically for their creep spread.
The stuff you point out would be absolutely great if that's how the game worked. But the good Zergs know how to make just barely enough to stop your army, and drone up.
I agree with what you said about using ravens/scans for creep tumors - more Terrans need to use the raven to clear that out...but that's another fundamental problem. You don't always have the teched starport, and getting just 1 raven makes it easily snipeable.
A lot of T do use scans to clear tumors, I do myself as well...but that's T's macro mechanic too, so you use a scan, while they are droning...suddenly your economy being even with Z due to mules is not as good (despite what forum kids say about mules being OP...mules barely keep T even with Z/P worker counts - except versus players that are aggro noob zergs, or P's that never chrono probes, then yes, mules put you slightly ahead).
And yah, the Terran drops doing damage, and immediately picking up to go back with your main force is ideally what every Terran now should be doing and wants to do...the problem is...versus these infestor turtle zergs, your drop is never gonna get back home, or even land a lot of times.
So it's a bit of a dice roll on whether you're gonna do damage or if they are really good with infestors / mutas to stop your drops. And the good zergs do stop them...so yeah...
PDD are good against muta/corruptor late game...but you're usually not going to have 5 million ravens...mass raven right now is something in theory that should work (just like lots of nydus worms ) but it just doesn't work out so well as you think it would -> unless you somehow get up to that point unscathed.
And back to your slow pushes...the only time they work are on the small maps, or on close positions on metalopolis or what not imo. Most games i've watched, and replays, and vods of when T's slow push Z, the Z ends up dedicating all of their larva to roach/ling/muta/baneling until they can crush the push and then go safely into late game...
Or maybe all of this doesn't matter and the maps just suck lol
On November 29 2010 07:58 Kurt_Russell wrote: So, I'm gonna have an answer someday, Avilo ? I thought you wanted people to discuss I didn't even bash you that time. I addressed part of your TvZ issues and I'm wondering what you think of it :[
"see baneling bust noobs"
thats his comment to everything lately He clearly doesn't want to further this discussion and would rather talk to people baiting him with stupid comments.
I agree with avilo that if you allow the Zerg to get to late game in a position that they can comfortably max out and stockpile resources/larvae a competent Zerg will steamroll just about any Terran. This, along with the fact that Reaper/Hellion early game pressure has been severely nerfed means that many Terrans are resorting to a double barracks play to try and stomp the zerg early game to punish fast expanding or other greedy plays.
However, I do NOT think that TvZ is as imbalanced as he thinks it is. I think avilo's idea of a 'macro game' needs to be changed in this circumstance. I don't think you can play a passive macro game as Terran. You absolutely must find ways to pressure the Zerg. I think as tha game progresses Terrans are going to become much better at finding ways to force drops to work, limit the spread of creep and create good timing pushes to punish greedy Zerg play.
After reading a few of avilo's posts and watching his video, he talks about how you need to play Terran 'badly' to win. I think that avilo just should accept and adapt to the limits of Terran's weaknesses and to try and play to exploit their strengths because right now he is literally playing into the Zergs hands, so to speak.
Its fine as long as the map allows for it. If its a map where you cant touch the zerg at all during the early and midgame, then yes, terran stands no chance whatsoever, but fortunately theres not very many of these maps (cross positions on metal, arguably scrap station).
As long as you can present some kind of threat early game, and its possible to credibly threaten to kill the zergs 3rd when he takes it, the game is fine. Zerg cant be left unchecked, perhaps even more so than in brood war, but with proper maps the game would still be balanced.
Unfortunately we have very few maps that arent complete bullshit (T favoured like Steppes or Delta, or Z favoured like Scrap or cross pos metal).
On November 27 2010 11:22 SubtleArt wrote: so what exactly changed about zvt? It went from impossible for zerg to impossible for terran. Yes, mass reapers were taken out, but it was T>>Z for a while before that was discovered too. The only other significant change I can think of is roach range (duh) but most tvzs zerg will go muta ling bling anyway. Did zerg just finally stop whining and figure out how to play the matchup?
As Ive been saying for a long time, when a lot of T gameplay is revolved around gimmicks, theres gonna be a point where the pros of the other two races are just too well prepared for them for them to work with as high a success rate as they used to.
Pretty sure theres some room for terrans to "stop whining and figure out the matchup" as well, just like zergs did (it wasnt only the balance changes that helped them IMO, they also became better), but we will see.
Its still mostly map dependant anyway-,-
Anyways, the point of me making this was to discuss how Zerg has an advantage late game, and yes, Terran cannot play passive. You have to play "bad" by trading units, doing suicide drops, to take your next expo, etc.
I dont see whats bad about this, as long as the maps make it possible to play this way (ie not cross position metal).
Oh and about ravens, let me quote (well, paraphrase) Junwi:
IMJunwiPirme: Raven make... you lose -_-
Not sure I think its THAT bad TvZ, but its certainly a gimped unit compared to what it once was.
In many of my practice games i've been trying a lot of new things to try and figure out what the key is to winning a macro game with zerg, and i think i've been making some headway but still feel pretty gimped late game :/
I've simply been FORCING passive, macro games against my zerg buddies to see how well i can really perform just trying to get my third (and 4th if its a favorable map) up. I've gotten to a point where i can easily be on PAR with them for food count, they'll max out just slightly before i do.
With astounding control, you can easily win the fight with tank/marine- but thats about as far as it goes. even if zerg is only on 4-5 base themselves, they can easily just remax while you have a gimped army to fight whatever they produce- and they can keep this up for AGES. eventually youre bound to get just ONE bad siege or ONE bad missclick and its really just all over. That or they know how to make broods :D
i really think "gimmicky" tactics are the way to fight a zerg. It sucks, because most 2 rax builds are extremely allin- even if they spend larva on a ton of zerglings they can still be OK. the 2 rax does transition well IF you do decent damage, though, so i think thats the best bet for TvZ right now.
Hopefully a GSL terran will show me something revolutionary in the next few days!!!
To comment on Jinro's post, I have to agree that maps right now are as big of a deciding factor as actual race balance. This is why some of the best games tend to happen on Xel Naga, where there's a choice between a more risky expo and a safer one.
Ravens are...situational. I guess you could get 1 for creep control, but other than that every time I saw terran use ravens like casters (i.e. like infestors or HTs), they ended up being too light on tanks or upgrades, and got rolled easily by Z ground. Also you're unlikely to have more than 1 starport in most of your TvZs so making a raven cuts into your medivac production or u really cant even make ravens since u have a reactor on it.
EPT
I didn't even bash you that time. I addressed part of your TvZ issues and I'm wondering what you think of it :[
