On November 27 2010 02:05 LuckyFool wrote: Terran just can't turtle or play passive in TvZ at all. It's just matchup flow that terran needs to harass and/or be agressive in TvZ right now. I guess if you want to call that allin you could. I don't see 2rax marine pressure into expanding as allin. Now it is trending lately towards more allins by terran but EVERY game isn't allin and the matchup isn't completely broken/bad.
You saw similar things in PvT in broodwar in my opinion, Protoss couldn't just sit there and allow a terran to max and attack with 200/200 3/3 army, you would lose. Yet we didn't see them proxy gating or going "allin every game." You saw it some of the time. They needed to deny 3rd, recall, fight better smaller fights, go carriers or other surprise/special tactics. I view TvZ very similar to that, I think you will see terrans fall into allining some of the time (more than zerg obviously). Because I do agree you can't sit there or enter a late game with a fully macoring zerg on 3-4 bases unchecked. Now of course I agree you will probably see more allins because of that but there are plenty of midgame timings I think that can be very powerful that many terran players simply haven't discovered yet or aren't really using.
I thought TvZ was broken initially after the depot before rax patch but in the past 3-4 weeks I really don't think it's all that bad at all. And to conclude I thin It's also really hard to form judgments about TvZ right now period when there are probably less than 5 actually good zergs on the entire north American server at the moment and such a dynamic/changing game from patch to patch.
Ya, Rob, that's why u made this blog rite? http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=22 How can u be such a traitor to the terran race. You can't just abandon ur bw roots and say that shit. P 200/200 army was just as strong as T's, even stronger if they had carriers and HTs and arbiters and all that ridiculously imbalanced stuff.
Mister Blind 2 facter, lose all ur scvs in a TvT with blue hellions and still somehow win with f-in sieged tanks. Arghhhhhh!
Actually what you say about SC2 tvz makes sense.
On November 27 2010 02:07 Chill wrote:
On November 27 2010 01:26 Sadistx wrote:
I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion
I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?).
Who says it determines how closely I will listen to what they are saying, and nothing more. If IdrA said something I thought was wrong, I would take the time to double check if he's wrong or I'm wrong. If it was a bronze player, I would also check for mistakes in his opinion, but probably not as hard. That's it. You don't have to be a top player to form a justified opinion based on theory or evidence. It just takes time and logical thinking, that's all.
Ok, I can agree with that. For example if Luckyfool says something, I never listen, cuz he's my renegade student and I just tell him to shut up and tech switch.
I'm not a traitor to the terran race. I was just bad in broodwar so I raged about that stupid shit all the time. T_T
And I mentioned protoss needs carriers/recalls to fight terran in my first post so you're not really doing anything but trying to time warp into the past by linking to old blogposts.
On November 27 2010 07:16 avilo wrote: Lots of people use ladder to practice different things.
No matter what 'thing' you claim you were practicing that game, 90 second supply block is a fundamental flaw in your game that should prove pretty clearly that you aren't good enough at the game to make claims about imbalance based on your own play.
holy shit dudes. This is like the fucking time incontrol attacked an assimilator and everyone's fucking posting "OMG SO BAD HERP DE DERP" (lol sorry to bring it up). Seriously, no one fucking plays perfect every single damn game. Jesus christ, get off the random ladder game.
It's like some noobie makes a shiny bash post, and every other lil kiddo on TL sees, "OH SHINY ME BASH TOO!" lmao! Come on TL kiddos, you're better than that. -> TvZ - DISCUSS.
On November 27 2010 02:05 LuckyFool wrote: Terran just can't turtle or play passive in TvZ at all. It's just matchup flow that terran needs to harass and/or be agressive in TvZ right now. I guess if you want to call that allin you could. I don't see 2rax marine pressure into expanding as allin. Now it is trending lately towards more allins by terran but EVERY game isn't allin and the matchup isn't completely broken/bad.
You saw similar things in PvT in broodwar in my opinion, Protoss couldn't just sit there and allow a terran to max and attack with 200/200 3/3 army, you would lose. Yet we didn't see them proxy gating or going "allin every game." You saw it some of the time. They needed to deny 3rd, recall, fight better smaller fights, go carriers or other surprise/special tactics. I view TvZ very similar to that, I think you will see terrans fall into allining some of the time (more than zerg obviously). Because I do agree you can't sit there or enter a late game with a fully macoring zerg on 3-4 bases unchecked. Now of course I agree you will probably see more allins because of that but there are plenty of midgame timings I think that can be very powerful that many terran players simply haven't discovered yet or aren't really using.
I thought TvZ was broken initially after the depot before rax patch but in the past 3-4 weeks I really don't think it's all that bad at all. And to conclude I thin It's also really hard to form judgments about TvZ right now period when there are probably less than 5 actually good zergs on the entire north American server at the moment and such a dynamic/changing game from patch to patch.
Ya, Rob, that's why u made this blog rite? http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=22 How can u be such a traitor to the terran race. You can't just abandon ur bw roots and say that shit. P 200/200 army was just as strong as T's, even stronger if they had carriers and HTs and arbiters and all that ridiculously imbalanced stuff.
Mister Blind 2 facter, lose all ur scvs in a TvT with blue hellions and still somehow win with f-in sieged tanks. Arghhhhhh!
Actually what you say about SC2 tvz makes sense.
On November 27 2010 02:07 Chill wrote:
On November 27 2010 01:26 Sadistx wrote:
I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion
I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?).
Who says it determines how closely I will listen to what they are saying, and nothing more. If IdrA said something I thought was wrong, I would take the time to double check if he's wrong or I'm wrong. If it was a bronze player, I would also check for mistakes in his opinion, but probably not as hard. That's it. You don't have to be a top player to form a justified opinion based on theory or evidence. It just takes time and logical thinking, that's all.
Ok, I can agree with that. For example if Luckyfool says something, I never listen, cuz he's my renegade student and I just tell him to shut up and tech switch.
I'm not a traitor to the terran race. I was just bad in broodwar so I raged about that stupid shit all the time. T_T
And I mentioned protoss needs carriers/recalls to fight terran in my first post so you're not really doing anything but trying to time warp into the past by linking to old blogposts.
On November 27 2010 07:16 avilo wrote: Lots of people use ladder to practice different things.
No matter what 'thing' you claim you were practicing that game, 90 second supply block is a fundamental flaw in your game that should prove pretty clearly that you aren't good enough at the game to make claims about imbalance based on your own play.
holy shit dudes. This is like the fucking time incontrol attacked an assimilator and everyone's fucking posting "OMG SO BAD HERP DE DERP" (lol sorry to bring it up). Seriously, no one fucking plays perfect every single damn game. Jesus christ, get off the random ladder game.
It's like some noobie makes a shiny bash post, and every other lil kiddo on TL sees, "OH SHINY ME BASH TOO!" lmao! Come on TL kiddos, you're better than that. -> TvZ - DISCUSS.
except incontrol does not make blogposts saying zerg lategame needs to be nerfed while brandishing his top 200 ladder rank as if it mattered. There is nothing further to discuss, you are wrong and Idra posted why.
On November 27 2010 02:05 LuckyFool wrote: Terran just can't turtle or play passive in TvZ at all. It's just matchup flow that terran needs to harass and/or be agressive in TvZ right now. I guess if you want to call that allin you could. I don't see 2rax marine pressure into expanding as allin. Now it is trending lately towards more allins by terran but EVERY game isn't allin and the matchup isn't completely broken/bad.
You saw similar things in PvT in broodwar in my opinion, Protoss couldn't just sit there and allow a terran to max and attack with 200/200 3/3 army, you would lose. Yet we didn't see them proxy gating or going "allin every game." You saw it some of the time. They needed to deny 3rd, recall, fight better smaller fights, go carriers or other surprise/special tactics. I view TvZ very similar to that, I think you will see terrans fall into allining some of the time (more than zerg obviously). Because I do agree you can't sit there or enter a late game with a fully macoring zerg on 3-4 bases unchecked. Now of course I agree you will probably see more allins because of that but there are plenty of midgame timings I think that can be very powerful that many terran players simply haven't discovered yet or aren't really using.
I thought TvZ was broken initially after the depot before rax patch but in the past 3-4 weeks I really don't think it's all that bad at all. And to conclude I thin It's also really hard to form judgments about TvZ right now period when there are probably less than 5 actually good zergs on the entire north American server at the moment and such a dynamic/changing game from patch to patch.
Ya, Rob, that's why u made this blog rite? http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=22 How can u be such a traitor to the terran race. You can't just abandon ur bw roots and say that shit. P 200/200 army was just as strong as T's, even stronger if they had carriers and HTs and arbiters and all that ridiculously imbalanced stuff.
Mister Blind 2 facter, lose all ur scvs in a TvT with blue hellions and still somehow win with f-in sieged tanks. Arghhhhhh!
Actually what you say about SC2 tvz makes sense.
On November 27 2010 02:07 Chill wrote:
On November 27 2010 01:26 Sadistx wrote:
I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion
I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?).
Who says it determines how closely I will listen to what they are saying, and nothing more. If IdrA said something I thought was wrong, I would take the time to double check if he's wrong or I'm wrong. If it was a bronze player, I would also check for mistakes in his opinion, but probably not as hard. That's it. You don't have to be a top player to form a justified opinion based on theory or evidence. It just takes time and logical thinking, that's all.
Ok, I can agree with that. For example if Luckyfool says something, I never listen, cuz he's my renegade student and I just tell him to shut up and tech switch.
I'm not a traitor to the terran race. I was just bad in broodwar so I raged about that stupid shit all the time. T_T
And I mentioned protoss needs carriers/recalls to fight terran in my first post so you're not really doing anything but trying to time warp into the past by linking to old blogposts.
TRAITOR!!!!!! :p lol
On November 27 2010 09:07 Lemonwalrus wrote:
On November 27 2010 07:16 avilo wrote: Lots of people use ladder to practice different things.
No matter what 'thing' you claim you were practicing that game, 90 second supply block is a fundamental flaw in your game that should prove pretty clearly that you aren't good enough at the game to make claims about imbalance based on your own play.
holy shit dudes. This is like the fucking time incontrol attacked an assimilator and everyone's fucking posting "OMG SO BAD HERP DE DERP" (lol sorry to bring it up). Seriously, no one fucking plays perfect every single damn game. Jesus christ, get off the random ladder game.
It's like some noobie makes a shiny bash post, and every other lil kiddo on TL sees, "OH SHINY ME BASH TOO!" lmao! Come on TL kiddos, you're better than that. -> TvZ - DISCUSS.
except incontrol does not make blogposts saying zerg lategame needs to be nerfed while brandishing his top 200 ladder rank as if it mattered. There is nothing further to discuss, you are wrong and Idra posted why.
I never brandished anything. I made my points. People bashed me instead of the points. I understand it's difficult though for people to make coherent arguments about lategame ZvT, it's easier to not talk about the problems for some people.
so what exactly changed about zvt? It went from impossible for zerg to impossible for terran. Yes, mass reapers were taken out, but it was T>>Z for a while before that was discovered too. The only other significant change I can think of is roach range (duh) but most tvzs zerg will go muta ling bling anyway. Did zerg just finally stop whining and figure out how to play the matchup?
On November 27 2010 11:02 vica wrote: In 3 years people will look back at this, and laugh. Just like they always do.
We don't need three years. Blizzard is probably gonna roll out with some crappy ass patch in a few months, completely nerf some shit and change the entire meta-game but still not balance the game or make it require more skill in any way.
On November 27 2010 11:22 SubtleArt wrote: so what exactly changed about zvt? It went from impossible for zerg to impossible for terran. Yes, mass reapers were taken out, but it was T>>Z for a while before that was discovered too. The only other significant change I can think of is roach range (duh) but most tvzs zerg will go muta ling bling anyway. Did zerg just finally stop whining and figure out how to play the matchup?
no. the only thing about roach buff is that it makes hellion builds riskier. tank nerf is really the only meaningful change. now 0/0 tanks dont rofflestomp upgraded banelings anymore
To think that weapons 3 tanks (used to be 60+15 = 75) used to be able to kill lings in one hit and kill others in it's first two circles of splash damage :/
Edit: armor level 3 lings would survive with .5 +1 hp left however Dx
why are you so proud of this video? Honestly i can't believe this thread hasn't been closed with how many times this thread has been derailed and how much fighting that goes on here.
If you are unable to put words on paper (on tl) in good form how are you expecting this video to go over, when you say its what you have been discussing.
I'll watch the video and comment latter, but atm im baffled with your decision to make one.
Lol avilo, you are much more likable in video format. I can't be angry at anything you say anymore. a1 here, last time I played sc2 was during beta when you trounced me with mech like 3 times in a row. Was really furious at your "mech isn't OP" comments back then (obviously you were a better player).
Maybe if you dedicated all your spare time to playing mnm style games you would start winning more. I really don't think mech should be the standard way to play tvz, speaking from pure entertainment perspective.
On November 28 2010 11:49 StorrZerg wrote: why are you so proud of this video? Honestly i can't believe this thread hasn't been closed with how many times this thread has been derailed and how much fighting that goes on here.
If you are unable to put words on paper (on tl) in good form how are you expecting this video to go over, when you say its what you have been discussing.
I'll watch the video and comment latter, but atm im baffled with your decision to make one.
There's a difference between being able to put words onto TL, and others taking every opportunity to bash the person writing them rather than reading the words.
Pretty sure I am able to put words on paper pretty well...re-read most of this blog post and a huge percentage of it has been trolled and de-railed like you said, which is pretty sad, especially for TL, but it happens, especially with touchy things like talking about balance.
And I didn't meet with a bunch of executives to "make a decision to make a video..." come on storrzerg...lmao.
On November 28 2010 12:06 LuckyFool wrote: you have to play bad to play good! Better start playing bad then avilo (*cough* ATTACK MORE *cough*)
and you can't even enjoy thanksgiving without raging about TvZ?! what's next, nightmares about lategame TvZ when you sleep too?
in other news I'm doing great TvZ lately.... it's prolly my favorite mu.
yah lmao. I've been working on it. I'm so used to T from SC1, and well SC1 period where you could play a defensive macro game...Zerg probably fits my style more in SC2, but I love T too much to switch
I'm not the best player in the world. Like everyone else I have flaws in my play and am getting better (h8ters gonna hate), but that doesn't invalidate the points I'm trying to make about TvZ lategame =/
On November 28 2010 12:11 News wrote: Lol avilo, you are much more likable in video format. I can't be angry at anything you say anymore. a1 here, last time I played sc2 was during beta when you trounced me with mech like 3 times in a row. Was really furious at your "mech isn't OP" comments back then (obviously you were a better player).
Maybe if you dedicated all your spare time to playing mnm style games you would start winning more. I really don't think mech should be the standard way to play tvz, speaking from pure entertainment perspective.
well...I did say some naive stuff in beta, like the entire "USE MOAR NYDUS WORMS" lol. So people are pretty quick to dig up those posts and bash me @_@. But by the end of the reaper era, I started to play Zerg myself, and I made quite a few posts saying that Zerg needed to be buffed, or something changed so scouting were more possible...and I was agreeing with the Zergs. No one will dig those up though lol.
It's just annoying that now we're at a point where everything is opposite, with Zerg having a clear advantage lategame and everyone is content to keep their mouths shut.
If you notice, every major Zerg whiner from beta has completely shut their mouth since this last patch
Zerg has always had a major advantage late game, even throughout beta. The reason it's coming to light now is because a lot of terran options have been removed or nerfed (reapers, tanks, bunker rush), thus making late game much more likely. With late game being so much more likely with standard play, it seems rather obvious that terran would be doing these weird all in builds.
Let's be clear. This problem has been here since beta, we just couldn't see it clearly with games ending at the midpoint. And to be honest, with the amount of people on this forum that want bigger maps and more epic games.... it's obviously a problem that should be addressed. Unless you just want to keep playing on small maps.
EPT
