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Calgary26003 Posts
On November 27 2010 01:26 Sadistx wrote:I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?).
Artosis and Idra said tons of wrong shit in Brood War because they're insanely biased. Like "oh he went 14 Nexus and I went Siege expand this timing is nearly impossible to beat" and shit like that.
Who says it determines how closely I will listen to what they are saying, and nothing more. If IdrA said something I thought was wrong, I would take the time to double check if he's wrong or I'm wrong. If it was a bronze player, I would also check for mistakes in his opinion, but probably not as hard. That's it. You don't have to be a top player to form a justified opinion based on theory or evidence. It just takes time and logical thinking, that's all.
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I was referring to last night, but what??? somewhere 4 months ago you sneak into one of my game too? i don't remember that! Did I manage to impress you in any of those games ? :D
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On November 27 2010 02:07 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 01:26 Sadistx wrote:I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?). Artosis and Idra said tons of wrong shit in Brood War because they're insanely biased. Like "oh he went 14 Nexus and I went Siege expand this timing is nearly impossible to beat" and shit like that.
While they were quite biased, some of their statements tended to contain truth, though extremely exaggerated - a 14 nexus did have many advantages to a siege expanding player, though it isn't impossible to beat.
So while they shouldn't be taken literally, they still tend to make sense. IE - in the current state of the game, it IS difficult for zerg players to 15 hatch. Is it impossible? Probably not, but where we are at now, a player who 15 hatches has a pretty difficult disadvantage (at least how its played out at the moment) to a well played 2 raxing terran.
In fact, artosis and idra should probably have a translator for them that automatically de-amplifies most of their words  .
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On November 27 2010 01:18 eLiE wrote:
What happened to not complaining about how things are useless and working to find solutions to your race's problems? May I suggest using 5-10 nydus worms to make your mech more useful?
EDIT: I won't be lazy, I'll personalize it to Terran. Why don't you do 5-10 tank/thor drops at once to make your units more useful?
4000/3000, costs only 2000 minerals more than the 10 nydus worms and damage is insured. The analogy stands.
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That post is 100% correct. The amount of unwarranted whining by zergs in beta about mech was inexcusable, but they whined enough and blizzard nerfed mech. Guess what. Now mech is useless in TvP as a result.
except it was justifiably nerfed in relation to how zvt operated at the time and because of short map sizes mech became too strong, besides that terrans are experimenting with mass thors to battle the collossii balls so biomech is perfectly fine.
As for Avilo, he dosnt actually say anything intelligent. Basing everything on the games on gsl forgetting that koreans are so insanely agressive that they essentially have very few players who want the game to go into the lategame and when they end up in the lategame the terran is insanely behind because he has attempted to allinn rather than play for the lategame.
YOu cant allinn and play lategame in the same game.
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I have a hard time following this blog, it has gone from trying to state something is wrong with the game to bashing players. What we need is a new post that has more thought in it then inane ramblings about how something is imbalanced with very little proof given other than look at this game he lost the late game. (I am sorry that is pretty easy to do when 50% of the people playing this match up lose the game) How about you give it some time to rethink this "imbalance" play some games on the ladder and use those replays to show us the issue. Then we can see the replays and be like wow you had no way to win that late game match! Or you had the same chance to win as he did but you made a stupid mistake in getting supply blocked or you backed off your pressure because you thought you were ahead.
This is an interesting topic but it needs to be brought forward in a more logical approach. Replays & a not so biased whine fest about how you will never be able to beat a late game zerg.
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On November 27 2010 02:05 LuckyFool wrote:
Terran just can't turtle or play passive in TvZ at all. It's just matchup flow that terran needs to harass and/or be agressive in TvZ right now. I guess if you want to call that allin you could. I don't see 2rax marine pressure into expanding as allin. Now it is trending lately towards more allins by terran but EVERY game isn't allin and the matchup isn't completely broken/bad.
You saw similar things in PvT in broodwar in my opinion, Protoss couldn't just sit there and allow a terran to max and attack with 200/200 3/3 army, you would lose. Yet we didn't see them proxy gating or going "allin every game." You saw it some of the time. They needed to deny 3rd, recall, fight better smaller fights, go carriers or other surprise/special tactics. I view TvZ very similar to that, I think you will see terrans fall into allining some of the time (more than zerg obviously). Because I do agree you can't sit there or enter a late game with a fully macoring zerg on 3-4 bases unchecked. Now of course I agree you will probably see more allins because of that but there are plenty of midgame timings I think that can be very powerful that many terran players simply haven't discovered yet or aren't really using.
I thought TvZ was broken initially after the depot before rax patch but in the past 3-4 weeks I really don't think it's all that bad at all. And to conclude I thin It's also really hard to form judgments about TvZ right now period when there are probably less than 5 actually good zergs on the entire north American server at the moment and such a dynamic/changing game from patch to patch.
Ya, Rob, that's why u made this blog rite?
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=22
How can u be such a traitor to the terran race. You can't just abandon ur bw roots and say that shit. P 200/200 army was just as strong as T's, even stronger if they had carriers and HTs and arbiters and all that ridiculously imbalanced stuff.
Also, how do u feel about HeartBreak Ridge?
also this blog
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=27
Mister Blind 2 facter, lose all ur scvs in a TvT with blue hellions and still somehow win with f-in sieged tanks. Arghhhhhh!
Actually what you say about SC2 tvz makes sense.
On November 27 2010 02:07 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 01:26 Sadistx wrote:I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?). Who says it determines how closely I will listen to what they are saying, and nothing more. If IdrA said something I thought was wrong, I would take the time to double check if he's wrong or I'm wrong. If it was a bronze player, I would also check for mistakes in his opinion, but probably not as hard. That's it. You don't have to be a top player to form a justified opinion based on theory or evidence. It just takes time and logical thinking, that's all.
Ok, I can agree with that. For example if Luckyfool says something, I never listen, cuz he's my renegade student and I just tell him to shut up and tech switch. 
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On November 27 2010 02:22 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 02:05 LuckyFool wrote:
Terran just can't turtle or play passive in TvZ at all. It's just matchup flow that terran needs to harass and/or be agressive in TvZ right now. I guess if you want to call that allin you could. I don't see 2rax marine pressure into expanding as allin. Now it is trending lately towards more allins by terran but EVERY game isn't allin and the matchup isn't completely broken/bad.
You saw similar things in PvT in broodwar in my opinion, Protoss couldn't just sit there and allow a terran to max and attack with 200/200 3/3 army, you would lose. Yet we didn't see them proxy gating or going "allin every game." You saw it some of the time. They needed to deny 3rd, recall, fight better smaller fights, go carriers or other surprise/special tactics. I view TvZ very similar to that, I think you will see terrans fall into allining some of the time (more than zerg obviously). Because I do agree you can't sit there or enter a late game with a fully macoring zerg on 3-4 bases unchecked. Now of course I agree you will probably see more allins because of that but there are plenty of midgame timings I think that can be very powerful that many terran players simply haven't discovered yet or aren't really using.
I thought TvZ was broken initially after the depot before rax patch but in the past 3-4 weeks I really don't think it's all that bad at all. And to conclude I thin It's also really hard to form judgments about TvZ right now period when there are probably less than 5 actually good zergs on the entire north American server at the moment and such a dynamic/changing game from patch to patch. Ya, Rob, that's why u made this blog rite? http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=22How can u be such a traitor to the terran race. You can't just abandon ur bw roots and say that shit. P 200/200 army was just as strong as T's, even stronger if they had carriers and HTs and arbiters and all that ridiculously imbalanced stuff. Also, how do u feel about HeartBreak Ridge?also this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=27Mister Blind 2 facter, lose all ur scvs in a TvT with blue hellions and still somehow win with f-in sieged tanks. Arghhhhhh! Actually what you say about SC2 tvz makes sense.
Don't even START to remind me about Heartbreak Ridge......I get nightmares every time I try to remember my TvPs on that map. 
Also,
On November 27 2010 02:16 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +That post is 100% correct. The amount of unwarranted whining by zergs in beta about mech was inexcusable, but they whined enough and blizzard nerfed mech. Guess what. Now mech is useless in TvP as a result. except it was justifiably nerfed in relation to how zvt operated at the time and because of short map sizes mech became too strong, besides that terrans are experimenting with mass thors to battle the collossii balls so biomech is perfectly fine. As for Avilo, he dosnt actually say anything intelligent. Basing everything on the games on gsl forgetting that koreans are so insanely agressive that they essentially have very few players who want the game to go into the lategame and when they end up in the lategame the terran is insanely behind because he has attempted to allinn rather than play for the lategame.YOu cant allinn and play lategame in the same game.
Maybe they were insanely aggressive b/c Terran is behind late game? Iono....
And you CAN play lategame after an all-in. Sounds kinda contradictory, but enough damage to the Zerg should be enough to bring you back from the damage taken from all-in.
To me, it sounds like the biggest problem is just Zerg is just outmassing the shit out of everybody in lategame. To be honest, that just sounds like a poor excuse for "fuck, I couldn't kill enough expos against Z, it's imba!"
Back in BW, a Zerg that was on four gas was SUPER strong in TvZ. And if you were a Zerg on FIVE bases, you could trash anything with your Sauron Zerg tactics. In SC2, Zerg's macro dynamics make it so easy for Zerg to take a lot of expansions, and with larvae inject, it makes SC2 Sauron Zerg style so much more threatening.
T's just gotta learn how to take down expoes like they did in BW. Once that happens, TvZ all-ins should lessen.
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The difference is that I don't claim to know better and I am fully aware that I'm not good at the game (I don't even own the game), and I don't say outrageous things, challenge people that are obviously better than me and then wuss out when the person calls me out. At the moment avilo isn't really much different from AzureEye and he deserves all the ridicule he receives.
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On November 27 2010 04:34 koreasilver wrote:
The difference is that I don't claim to know better and I am fully aware that I'm not good at the game (I don't even own the game), and I don't say outrageous things, challenge people that are obviously better than me and then wuss out when the person calls me out. At the moment avilo isn't really much different from AzureEye and he deserves all the ridicule he receives.
lol...mass bashing, hate, etc. i beat ret in brood war a game on iccup when i came back with 1 week of practice. PvZ...that's my off race, i'm a terran player. Yes, it's just one fucking game, but if people are gonna post "1 game" of me losing to zelniq and then say jack shit yeah...my point is, who cares, it's 1 game, a damn ladder game. Lots of people use ladder to practice different things.
And the skill gap between top foreigners is not huge at all like some people here think. A lot of the top 200 period can beat lots of the GSL competitors. No exaggeration...people aren't gods you know, everyone plays this game.
Anyways, the point of me making this was to discuss how Zerg has an advantage late game, and yes, Terran cannot play passive. You have to play "bad" by trading units, doing suicide drops, to take your next expo, etc.
I'm not saying I myself am not still learning this game...that's fucking ridiculous. Everyone here is still learning, but I'd think I know some things and can point them out.
Yes, I brought up nydus worms a lot during beta because no one was using them...like at all. The amount of Terran "balance whining" right now is no where goddamn near how bad idra and the other Zergs were whining when Zerg had a tough time.
But I hope people realize throughout the entire beta, Zerg's lategame has always been the absolute strongest. There's a reason why Zerg was the strongest race the first months of beta, and that's because of turtling and then drone whoring.
Chill's "e-sports science graphs" show what happens when Zerg defends until he can drone whore safely - their economy goes up exponentially while protoss/terran only go up linearly? Something like that eh?
So yes, the balance shifted, Terrans got ridiculously strong (see: OP) for a time, but Zergs knew that if they defended into lategame...they won. Nothing about lategame Zerg ever changed throughout any of the patches, economy-wise that is.
That's all I'm saying, pretty much how drone said i should have worded it - zerg has an advantage late-game. I don't understand how any good player can deny that.
And the people that say, "just use more ravens/HSM" are just as bad as I was about saying use nydus worms, FYI 
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On November 27 2010 04:34 koreasilver wrote:
The difference is that I don't claim to know better and I am fully aware that I'm not good at the game (I don't even own the game), and I don't say outrageous things, challenge people that are obviously better than me and then wuss out when the person calls me out. At the moment avilo isn't really much different from AzureEye and he deserves all the ridicule he receives.
If you read that thread, avilo didn't "wuss" out...Ret wanted a grand to play him, because according to Huk, Ret is Kolbe Bryant. Avilo stated that he's a college student and doesn't have the funds - otherwise he would have played him without hesitation, I'm sure.
Right or wrong, someone’s opinion cannot be invalidated. It’s theirs. And like they say “opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one.” If a person wants to vent (whine, as you call it) it’s their right; however, there’s no excuse for attacking someone’s integrity. It’s easy to follow the leader in a gang bashing, when you, yourself (collective) are a follower. It’s easy to laugh at someone else’s mistakes. Oh what fun!
Zelnig posts one replay of a bad game and suddenly it’s food for fodder. All the sheep having a good laugh at avilo’s expense for experimenting, or trying something new/different, or just maybe losing focus and attention atm due to something happening in his personal life. I’ve seen excellent “team” players lose for doing something stupid. They kick themselves enough; no one has to do it for them. But everyone is so geared on attacking avilo that they’ve lost all humanity and have become like a pack of ravenous wolves hell bent on ripping their prey to shreds. It’s sad really.
Harem jokingly mentioned earlier in this thread, “That's his girlfriend posting” as if one human being can’t defend another when she/he sees injustices perpetrated upon a fellow man.
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If you fear so much zerg 300 push or outmacroing you in late stages of the game, why don't you regularly trade army with him? Terran units while more costly (exept marines), are cost-effective. What it means is that it's a big investment to make it be it in time (or production capability), or in resources, they are more efficient for their food cost than other units.
Although the "costly" part is obviously debatable (especially when facing a marine / tank build because of reactor rax and the little tank needed), the efficiency can be proven by simple excel sheets (see maraudeurs vs roach, marine vs ling, tanks vs anything ground, thor vs ultralisk). Food for food there is a big provable difference there.
So terrans should aim to be aggressive and keep food counts equal (I know the concept is not new at all). It doesn't mean though that the terran should all in every chance they get . It means be aggressive.
When all ins are too powerfull it kills the game because it's not counterable. It's poker build order. It's bad for the game (imagine if most terran builds except one or two could be flat out beaten by a baneling bust allin?).
When macro "seems" too powerfull, it means it can be solved via tactics (being a better player) until the very very very top (it's true in most rps).
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On November 26 2010 18:17 eLiE wrote:lol, I finally found this (worth not getting that hour of sleep before school). I got my first taste of avilo when watching him text yelling on the chat that Sheth should be making nyduses all over the map instead of getting roflstomped by tanks. I believe the day after that game we all remember, I came across this post. avilo on nydus worms (and the beta state of tvz)
To be fair to me, I was also saying that all the whining was going to get mech nerfed, rather than fixing Zerg or buffing them up early game to match Terran. Obv, blizzard nerfed Terran early game which has turned out OK, except they haven't kept Zerg lategame in check/
Here we are today, there's a problem lategame ZvT where they have an advantage, but I'm not advocating nerfing any Zerg strategies like every Zerg was when the match-up was Terran favored in the early game build order poker.
Huge difference. I don't want Terran buffed, I don't want Zerg strats nerfed - me, like many other Terrans, want a game where it's possible to play a macro management game on even footing, whether that's passive or aggressive.
The only way to legitimately do that right now is to play "bad" and trade units over and over again, which is ridiculous.
and btw, hope you realize quoting that thread that the thread starter made that huge "OMG MECH TOO STRONG imba thread!" based off of ONE game on STEPPES OF WAR. I don't know how people can say I'm being Terran biased when you have crazy threads like that.
Zergs whined enough, they got their race problems fixed, now they're singing songs and patting each other on the back on a job well done by blizzard leaving Zerg lategame alone.
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On November 27 2010 02:22 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 02:05 LuckyFool wrote:
Terran just can't turtle or play passive in TvZ at all. It's just matchup flow that terran needs to harass and/or be agressive in TvZ right now. I guess if you want to call that allin you could. I don't see 2rax marine pressure into expanding as allin. Now it is trending lately towards more allins by terran but EVERY game isn't allin and the matchup isn't completely broken/bad.
You saw similar things in PvT in broodwar in my opinion, Protoss couldn't just sit there and allow a terran to max and attack with 200/200 3/3 army, you would lose. Yet we didn't see them proxy gating or going "allin every game." You saw it some of the time. They needed to deny 3rd, recall, fight better smaller fights, go carriers or other surprise/special tactics. I view TvZ very similar to that, I think you will see terrans fall into allining some of the time (more than zerg obviously). Because I do agree you can't sit there or enter a late game with a fully macoring zerg on 3-4 bases unchecked. Now of course I agree you will probably see more allins because of that but there are plenty of midgame timings I think that can be very powerful that many terran players simply haven't discovered yet or aren't really using.
I thought TvZ was broken initially after the depot before rax patch but in the past 3-4 weeks I really don't think it's all that bad at all. And to conclude I thin It's also really hard to form judgments about TvZ right now period when there are probably less than 5 actually good zergs on the entire north American server at the moment and such a dynamic/changing game from patch to patch. Ya, Rob, that's why u made this blog rite? http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=22How can u be such a traitor to the terran race. You can't just abandon ur bw roots and say that shit. P 200/200 army was just as strong as T's, even stronger if they had carriers and HTs and arbiters and all that ridiculously imbalanced stuff. Also, how do u feel about HeartBreak Ridge? also this blog http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/blogitems.php?site=luckyfool&page=27Mister Blind 2 facter, lose all ur scvs in a TvT with blue hellions and still somehow win with f-in sieged tanks. Arghhhhhh! Actually what you say about SC2 tvz makes sense. Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 02:07 Chill wrote:On November 27 2010 01:26 Sadistx wrote:I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?). Who says it determines how closely I will listen to what they are saying, and nothing more. If IdrA said something I thought was wrong, I would take the time to double check if he's wrong or I'm wrong. If it was a bronze player, I would also check for mistakes in his opinion, but probably not as hard. That's it. You don't have to be a top player to form a justified opinion based on theory or evidence. It just takes time and logical thinking, that's all. Ok, I can agree with that. For example if Luckyfool says something, I never listen, cuz he's my renegade student and I just tell him to shut up and tech switch.
I'm not a traitor to the terran race. I was just bad in broodwar so I raged about that stupid shit all the time. T_T
And I mentioned protoss needs carriers/recalls to fight terran in my first post so you're not really doing anything but trying to time warp into the past by linking to old blogposts. 
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Huge difference. I don't want Terran buffed, I don't want Zerg strats nerfed - me, like many other Terrans, want a game where it's possible to play a macro management game on even footing, whether that's passive or aggressive.
I quite sincerely want to know what this means.
Are you advocating a change of the map pool (as you said: loljunglebasin)?
Otherwise, the statement seems like a self-contradicting mess...
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Huge difference. I don't want Terran buffed, I don't want Zerg strats nerfed - me, like many other Terrans, want a game where it's possible to play a macro management game on even footing, whether that's passive or aggressive.
and idra says it is possible you just need to learn to play for the lategame.
either that or you are indeed advocating nerfs to zerg lategame and that in itself is mocking to all the great terran players out there like clide and nada.
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On November 27 2010 07:16 avilo wrote:
Lots of people use ladder to practice different things.
No matter what 'thing' you claim you were practicing that game, 90 second supply block is a fundamental flaw in your game that should prove pretty clearly that you aren't good enough at the game to make claims about imbalance based on your own play.
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Calgary26003 Posts
Please stop citing my 6-month old beta article.
Secondly, no one is bashing you for one ladder game. They're bashing you for having 13 production facilities on one hotkey, idling for 90 seconds, and whining once the game was lost. I'm sure Ret did none of these things when you beat him offrace.
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On November 27 2010 09:11 Chill wrote:
Please stop citing my 6-month old beta article.
Secondly, no one is bashing you for one ladder game. They're bashing you for having 13 production facilities on one hotkey, idling for 90 seconds, and whining once the game was lost. I'm sure Ret did none of these things when you beat him offrace.
wait wtf are you talking about? I didn't come here after that "1 game." Are you kidding me? You say no one is bashing me for a ladder game. Then you bash me for that one random ladder game?
Come on man, i'm not talking about 1 damn game, i'm talking about the match-up period. He de-railed meh blog nicely with that post tho =/ dirty Zerg players
edit: also, your 6 month old article was very telling of what would happen eventually with the macro mechanics.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/tUWns.jpg)
