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Liquid`Drone
Norway28690 Posts
On November 26 2010 14:54 Microlisk wrote: Ia ret's TvZ in sc2 good? I remember he had the best TvZ in the foreigner scene in BW. rets tvz in sc2 is definitely better than most 2500 terrans, especially going by mechanics | ||
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bbq ftw
United States139 Posts
It says something when you try so hard to derail a thread with a few screenshots. Its not a derail when one very key assumption of your argument -- your ability to objectively separate bad gameplay from inherent balance issues -- is getting thrown into question. Seeing as half your counter-arguments to TvZ wins disproving your predicted 'trend' stem from 'that zerg played bad/has a terrible playstyle'. Is it that difficult to admit that you may be wrong? Its not going to damage your e-credibility any more than straight denial, or suggesting 10 simultaneous Nydus worms as a viable strategy. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
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eLiE
Canada1039 Posts
avilo on nydus worms (and the beta state of tvz) | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:16 avilo wrote: This thread is just going to promote more whining and "NERF MECH" instead of actually looking for gameplay + strategic solutions. LOOOOOOOOOOL. Wow I'm starting to think avilo is just a troll. That post is absolutely drenched in hilarious irony. You heard it here Terrans: avilodamus predicted 10 nydus worms were the answer to ZvT back then, so surely you should listen to him now. He UNDERSTANDS the "metagame". | ||
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote: Not really. And the macro games people keep referencing are TvZs on jungle basin...lol. This is like me trying to support my argument and only referencing ZvT's on scrap station... edit: also i hope people realize players practice things on ladder...yes, that's right, what a strange concept! Yeah, cause a map that is 55% in favor of T in TvZ obviously means that it's Zerg imba (am speaking of Scrap Station in the foreigner scene, as per TLPD statistics) :/ | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On November 26 2010 18:26 SCC-Faust wrote: LOOOOOOOOOOL. Wow I'm starting to think avilo is just a troll. That post is absolutely drenched in hilarious irony. You heard it here Terrans: avilodamus predicted 10 nydus worms were the answer to ZvT back then, so surely you should listen to him now. He UNDERSTANDS the "metagame". Didn't he also falsely predict both of the last two GSLs? I don't know if that qualifies him as a troll in that case. >.> | ||
Chill
Calgary25981 Posts
On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote: Not really. And the macro games people keep referencing are TvZs on jungle basin...lol. This is like me trying to support my argument and only referencing ZvT's on scrap station... edit: also i hope people realize players practice things on ladder...yes, that's right, what a strange concept! How did practicing not macroing for 90 seconds work out for you? I also noticed your parting comments were not "Wow this build doesn't work" and were all directed outward rather than inward. This leads me to believe you weren't practicing anything. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
Hey zerg and drone iconed kids/players, he's still 100x better than you and understands the game well enough to make his opinion count more than yours ever will. Guess what, top players exaggerate things sometimes. Artosis: "UNSCOUTABLE 2 RAX, if u make speedlings non stop, you can't even put a dent in it" Idra: "14 hatch is dead" Lolololol, look, I can do this all day. On November 26 2010 18:17 eLiE wrote: lol, I finally found this (worth not getting that hour of sleep before school). I got my first taste of avilo when watching him text yelling on the chat that Sheth should be making nyduses all over the map instead of getting roflstomped by tanks. I believe the day after that game we all remember, I came across this post. avilo on nydus worms (and the beta state of tvz) That post is 100% correct. The amount of unwarranted whining by zergs in beta about mech was inexcusable, but they whined enough and blizzard nerfed mech. Guess what. Now mech is useless in TvP as a result. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25981 Posts
On November 27 2010 00:51 Sadistx wrote: Hey zerg and drone iconed kids/players, he's still 100x better than you and understands the game well enough to make his opinion count more than yours ever will. Guess what, top players exaggerate things sometimes. There's 2 huge problems with this: 1. Some top players in Brood War were retarded at game knowledge. Being a great player means it's more likely that you understand the game better, but it's not a certainty. His posts on the forum show (in my eyes) that he doesn't fully understand the match. 2. If your logic of a better player's opinion completely invalidating a less player's is true, then IdrA's post means we should no longer listen to avilo. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On November 27 2010 01:00 Chill wrote: There's 2 huge problems with this: 1. Some top players in Brood War were retarded at game knowledge. Being a great player means it's more likely that you understand the game better, but it's not a certainty. His posts on the forum show (in my eyes) that he doesn't fully understand the match. 2. If your logic of a better player's opinion completely invalidating a less player's is true, then IdrA's post means we should no longer listen to avilo. Regarding 1, I agree, and avilo does tend to exaggerate things (Like Liquid Drone said, instead of "impossible to win late game" you could say zerg "has a macro advantage late game"), but I wouldn't call any top player "retarded" at game knowledge. Maybe they were bad at putting their knowledge into a forum post, but none of them were flat out retarded (except Ps who went DTs every game). 2. This depends on the gap in skill. Because skill is a curve, the difference between top players is actually quite small. So someone like IdrA would invalidate opinions of most non top200 players, but not avilo's. Same way avilo's opinion exists alongside IdrA's without invalidating it. How big should the gap be, before one's opinion invalidates another? Pretty big, probably as big as between top200 and mid diamond, it's hard to put in numbers because of point inflation. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
I mean even IdrA stepped in to say that Avilo is completely wrong. I think we can trust a legitimate pro to give the best opinion rather than a person who is busy making blogs like these instead of practicing for something like the GSL. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25981 Posts
On November 27 2010 01:08 Sadistx wrote: Regarding 1, I agree, and avilo does tend to exaggerate things (Like Liquid Drone said, instead of "impossible to win late game" you could say zerg "has a macro advantage late game"), but I wouldn't call any top player "retarded" at game knowledge. Maybe they were bad at putting their knowledge into a forum post, but none of them were flat out retarded (except Ps who went DTs every game). 2. This depends on the gap in skill. Because skill is a curve, the difference between top players is actually quite small. So someone like IdrA would invalidate opinions of most non top200 players, but not avilo's. Same way avilo's opinion exists alongside IdrA's without invalidating it. How big should the gap be, before one's opinion invalidates another? Pretty big, probably as big as between top200 and mid diamond, it's hard to put in numbers because of point inflation. I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion. There's plenty of people who can put pen to paper at the highest level but can't execute it. When I say "retarded" top level games, obviously that wasn't my true meaning. I mean players who can execute at the highest level, but could never sit down and say why that works. Players who don't (and can't) adapt. And there are many of those kinds of players. So when someone is top200, it means I'll listen more carefully, but I'm not going to take everything they say to be true. | ||
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eLiE
Canada1039 Posts
On November 27 2010 00:51 Sadistx wrote: I didn't realize posting some images from a shitty ladder game suddenly allowed all the posters to become giant assholes and bash avilo. Hey zerg and drone iconed kids/players, he's still 100x better than you and understands the game well enough to make his opinion count more than yours ever will. Guess what, top players exaggerate things sometimes. Artosis: "UNSCOUTABLE 2 RAX, if u make speedlings non stop, you can't even put a dent in it" Idra: "14 hatch is dead" Lolololol, look, I can do this all day. That post is 100% correct. The amount of unwarranted whining by zergs in beta about mech was inexcusable, but they whined enough and blizzard nerfed mech. Guess what. Now mech is useless in TvP as a result. What happened to not complaining about how things are useless and working to find solutions to your race's problems? May I suggest using 5-10 nydus worms to make your mech more useful? EDIT: I won't be lazy, I'll personalize it to Terran. Why don't you do 5-10 tank/thor drops at once to make your units more useful? | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
I don't believe skill ever invalidates an opinion I believe it does if the skill gap is big enough (i.e. let's say IdrA and some random bronze league player, what would you say then?). I cannot imagine a situation where I'd listen to someone worse than myself (and i'm pretty terrible). Why would I listen to someone in plat, when I can go on ladder myself and actually TEST it at a higher level ? Why would Idra? Why would anyone? There's plenty of people who can put pen to paper at the highest level but can't execute it. With SC2 I don't agree with that at all. Execution is easier than ever, units aren't stupid, macro is easy and if you have correct theorycrafting, you will be able to execute it at least at a high enough level that you can take games off top diamond players. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On November 27 2010 01:18 eLiE wrote: What happened to not complaining about how things are useless and working to find solutions to your race's problems? May I suggest using 5-10 nydus worms to make your mech more useful? EDIT: I won't be lazy, I'll personalize it to Terran. Why don't you do 5-10 tank/thor drops at once to make your units more useful? You seem to have mistaken me for avilo. However if you'd like a 1000$ bo7 showmatch against me, I'd be happy to oblige. | ||
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eLiE
Canada1039 Posts
On November 27 2010 01:27 Sadistx wrote: You seem to have mistaken me for avilo. However if you'd like a 1000$ bo7 showmatch against me, I'd be happy to oblige. lol, why would I do that? I'm fucking terrible at this game. But just because I can't execute perfectly, don't play all day, and have a zergling portrait doesn't mean I don't know anything about the game. In fact, I follow the SC2 extremely closely. I think I'm like the player Chill described. Usually I know what I'm talking about, but I may be off every now and then. Sue me, or call me a nub and tell me to shut up (or challenge me to a bo7. I'd do it for honour only, but I'm drowning in school atm), Don't really care either way. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On November 27 2010 01:45 rei wrote: wasn't Sadistx the guy that randomly pops in my practice games to spy on me ? I'm flattered that you remember me from like 2 games over 4 months lol.  | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
You saw similar things in PvT in broodwar in my opinion, Protoss couldn't just sit there and allow a terran to max and attack with 200/200 3/3 army, you would lose. Yet we didn't see them proxy gating or going "allin every game." You saw it some of the time. They needed to deny 3rd, recall, fight better smaller fights, go carriers or other surprise/special tactics. I view TvZ very similar to that, I think you will see terrans fall into allining some of the time (more than zerg obviously). Because I do agree you can't sit there or enter a late game with a fully macoring zerg on 3-4 bases unchecked. Now of course I agree you will probably see more allins because of that but there are plenty of midgame timings I think that can be very powerful that many terran players simply haven't discovered yet or aren't really using. I thought TvZ was broken initially after the depot before rax patch but in the past 3-4 weeks I really don't think it's all that bad at all. And to conclude I thin It's also really hard to form judgments about TvZ right now period when there are probably less than 5 actually good zergs on the entire north American server at the moment and such a dynamic/changing game from patch to patch. | ||
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