EPTExpect more all-in TvZ games in SC2 - Page 8
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28624 Posts
and watching someone butcher their own valid arguement like this is to me quite saddening. the fact is that the new special abilities of all the races (queen+ creep bonus for zerg, mule for terran and chrono boost for protoss) are all overpowered at certain stages of the game. mules are ridiculously good in situations where both players are short on peons (meaning that terran players should inherently be aiming for a low-econ style of play.. this is something that has been mentioned many times, but apparently not sufficiently grasped by some - 50 peons vs 50 peons means that each mule is hardly of any importance, 6 peons vs 6 peons means one mule gives one player twice the income.) creep suddenly being a resource means that zerg units have to be either too good on creep or not good enough away from creep - now that zergs are finally starting to do a good job creeping we see the consequences. additionally, this obviously is a lategame boost because more creep will normally be spread the further into the game we go. queens being worth more than a hatchery in production capabilities, and being able to make infinite larvea in late game, is definitely overpowered in a situation where both players are at limit and where both players have a lot of resources saved up. there's no question about this. as for protoss, chrono boost has left protoss fucked over because the one area where chrono boost really shines - allowing them to tech to something or attain a unit combination really really fast - has been nerfed through increased build time or nerfing of those units.. in late game it's practically worthless compared to what mules and queens can do. but, this is nothing new to the starcraft franchise. for years of brood war the counter to mass carrier in tvp was "don't let him get there". a mere couple months ago the counter to a turtled 200 200 terran in zvt sc2 was "don't let him get there". on destination in bw the exact same scenario also had the same counter, "don't let him get there". prior to 3/3 200/200 mech becoming popular in bw, terrans on the other hand had to play a "don't let him get there" style of play with regard to zergs having 4+ gas mining with defiler tech. so basically, deal with it. if you're unhappy with your chosen race happening to be one that needs to rely upon harassment and which thrives in low-econ style games, change race. the game is a couple months old and is aiming at a lifespan nearing eternity. when races are as different as they are in bw or sc2, they will be stronger in different scenarios. zerg's biggest singular advantage compared to terran or protoss is their ability to spend huge amounts of resources in a short amount of time, terran has the advantage that it's impossible to attack them cost-efficiently and that all of their crap can be healed or repaired quickly, protoss has the ability to warp units anywhere on the map.. avilo has a point but he's arguing it in such an off-putting way that he's actually de-convincing people and I can't say I'm very sympathetic towards him. | ||
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Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
On November 25 2010 07:46 SCC-Faust wrote: If I remember correctly Rainbow didn't hit a single Zerg in GSL 1 all the way up until Fruit Dealer. He 2-0'ed CheckPrime at Ro16. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
Lets Zerg take half the map with little resistance then cries imba when he loses. "All that harass!" = 2 fail banshees and 2 fail dropships. "you can't say I can't play a macro game" = bunkrush into fail 2port harass and expanding to nat when Zerg takes a third after losing nat and making 4 spines early on. okay yo. Zerg so imba. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On November 26 2010 05:32 koreasilver wrote: rofl that replay Lets Zerg take half the map with little resistance then cries imba when he loses. "All that harass!" = 2 fail banshees and 2 fail dropships. "you can't say I can't play a macro game" = bunkrush into fail 2port harass and expanding to nat when Zerg takes a third after losing nat and making 4 spines early on. okay yo. Zerg so imba. It seriously tilts me that someone can play like that then blame their loss on imbalance. | ||
Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
also those 15 production facilities are my selection in the replay just to show how every single one was idle but with plenty of money to build (but ya he did have 13 production buildings on 1 hotkey, i just added 2 command centers to it) | ||
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gurrpp
United States437 Posts
On November 25 2010 08:16 Dente wrote: Since no one is actually posting replays, I want to invite people to watch this TvZ between select and haypro: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/3154 Another one: qxc vs catz where qxc tries to play a macro game vs his teammate. Nice and cute try imo. Can I say that qxc is better then catz? http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/3177 Funny fact: people always say "ye the terran played crap in that game". The problem is that they never say how the terran should have played. I recently watched a game between qxc and catz on the same map, so I'm assuming its the same match. To be honest, qxc was very close to winning towards the end. He was doing amazing drops, taking out expos. At one point it was one base (high yield) terran vs one base (also high yield zerg). Very very close. qxc put up a base at the 11 o clock, catz put down a base on the opposite side of the map. However, qxc did a bad job defending his last mining base. Watching the army, qxc had a larger army at that point, not to mention the fact that both players had pretty much no income. After attacking the expansion, zerg moved his entire army into the 12 o clock high ground area and hid it in the vents. qxc knew that there was an army up there(even sent an scv scout, which got picked off by lings), but apparently forgot about it. He could have taken it out and gone on to win the game with mules and an army advantage. Either way it was really close. I don't see how it demonstrates that terran is absolutely boned in the late game. | ||
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
Just checked the rep and I noticed something really funny. Every time avilo would get supply blocked, he'd hesitate on what to do. End up that the first time he was supply blocked, he thought about doing a command center, canceled the order, waited a bit to then end up building 3 barracks more (on 1 base when he had double starport tech lab, 3 rax and a fac) AND THEN build a command center. Don't really know when he built a supply.... then at 129, he eventually builds 3 facts at his 2nd expo before getting extra supply. Note: He build like 11 missile turrets almost at once around the 19 mark, not necessarily "horrible", maybe he wanted to move out of his base and was afraid of muta backstabs... but still :/ Oh avilo, you are so funny when you want =D Continue | ||
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
EDIT: removed quote, screenshots too bulky O_O | ||
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Trozz
Canada3454 Posts
These screenshots tell quite the tale. The chat is the best. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
Laughed until I cried and had to catch my breath | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
It says something when you try so hard to derail a thread with a few screenshots. I remember you raging some in the "T OP era" Zelniq...who cares. I said it when I started this blog, people are going to be quick to start directing things personally at me instead of attacking my arguments. It happens, this is the internet after all  Bash me all you want...it doesn't change the state of the game. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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Minus`
United States174 Posts
On November 26 2010 11:29 avilo wrote: Yes, I was having a horrible day on ladder. Who cares. It doesn't invalidate my arguments, everyone loses games. I've beaten lots lots of top names, many of them on sponsored teams, many who rage at me when they lose, but I don't come here, call them out on it, and brag/post every single one of those replays and make overarching balance claims about single games. It says something when you try so hard to derail a thread with a few screenshots. I remember you raging some in the "T OP era" Zelniq...who cares. I said it when I started this blog, people are going to be quick to start directing things personally at me instead of attacking my arguments. It happens, this is the internet after all Bash me all you want...it doesn't change the state of the game. The "T OP" era you're referencing is the state of the game which immediately preceded a balance patch, right? kthx. You're making "overarching balance claims" about a very limited number of games where it's become noticeably trendy to marine&scv all-in -- other posts and high-profile games have shown that it isn't the norm, nor is it the "only way" to win. You haven't got any arguments left to attack, might as well attack an example where you apparently played terribly (by your own admission) and then cried "zerg imba" -- because it calls into question your credibility, which in turn damages your initial argument further. This is, as you said, the internet, after all. Incidentally, you trying to inject "I've beaten lots of top names" to save face as a response does more to hurt your credibility than anything else posted here; it insists that you "aren't terrible" (as IdrA put it) in lieu of evidence to the contrary (Zelniq's post, with pictures and replay). Regardless, you're utterly wrong that we should expect more all-in TvZ style. The style will more likely continue to be refined to permit early aggression while minimizing the amount of commitment to the point that a certain level of aggression becomes expected. This is the predictable, possibly inevitable progression of the game; it's unfortunate you likely won't contribute. | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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