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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
Another one: qxc vs catz where qxc tries to play a macro game vs his teammate. Nice and cute try imo. Can I say that qxc is better then catz? http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/3177 Funny fact: people always say "ye the terran played crap in that game". The problem is that they never say how the terran should have played. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On November 25 2010 08:16 Dente wrote: Since no one is actually posting replays, I want to invite people to watch this TvZ between select and haypro: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/3154 To be fair, select did play like crap in that game. Look at his macro and decision making carefully, also check when he gets his upgrades. He was trying to play it like TvP, but you can't do that since zerg is almost twice as mobile as P. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 25 2010 08:30 Sadistx wrote: To be fair, select did play like crap in that game. Look at his macro and decision making carefully, also check when he gets his upgrades. He was trying to play it like TvP, but you can't do that since zerg is almost twice as mobile as P. Can you explain what select should have done then? He tried to pressure the zerg, because if you don't, the zerg will be on 5 base and 80 drones. | ||
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Archmage
United States169 Posts
When someone tries to do a cannon rush or a 6 pool against you, you can comfortably call them cheesy players because they aren't actually learning the game. Once learning how to defend these becomes standard, they will have nothing. If it's considered cheese to perform either of those all in attacks, why do Terran and Protoss players keep focusing on their own all ins? I want you to consider this: When the game first comes out, Terran is 3 raxing. It works well for a while, but after some time, Zerg learns to defend against this. They think, "Well that isn't working. Let's try mech!" I think it's accepted now that mech play used to be overpowered, but that's beside the point. It took Zerg players a few months to be able to crack this style of play, but ultimately, Zerg players found strategies that could defend against Mech. "Well, if neither mech nor bio work, then I must get creative!" After a while, 5 rax reaper was developed. "Ahah! A new way to 1 base a Zerg to death!" I don't think this was necessarily overpowered, but Blizzard decided that this was not how they wanted TvZ to be played, so 5 rax reaper was nerfed. "Well maybe if I delay tech and take half my SCVs with me to fight, I will be able to 1 base them!" Do you see the problem here? It seems like while all of these fancy builds were happening, Zerg was adamantly focused on learning what it took to hold these off while gaining an economic advantage. Now Terran is having a hard time holding up due to the fact that they don't know how to do things that aren't 1 base plays, which is exactly the same wall cheesers hit once they reach a certain level of play. Has it not occurred to anyone that Terran, in fact, has 3 of the best defensive abilities in the game? Between being able to put down (essentially free) bunkers, abusing high ground with range 13 tanks, and building Planetary Fortresses which can single handedly hold off an entire Zerg army, it baffles me to think that Terran players haven't begun experimenting with bolder expansion timings. Maybe when the game was still new and 1 base play was very prevalent, it would not have been safe to fast expand as Terran. However, now that Zerg players have become comfortable with going hatch before pool, I'd say it is definitely time for Terran players to adopt the mentality that Zerg players have had from the start. Try to figure out ways of taking earlier expansions. See how little it takes to actually defend incoming pressure. I know that I (as Zerg) will get legitimately upset with myself when I make too many units to defend a push. "Those units could have been drones!" The same can be said for Protoss players, but I feel like they are a little bit ahead and behind in some regards. Their 1 base all ins (fast Collosi) are still working (to a point), but on the other hand, I've seen a lot of forge expand ingenuity from them, as well. TL;DR Perhaps the correct response to Zerg players who take early expansions is not to find more innovative ways of punishing their expansion, but to find ways of more efficiently taking your own. | ||
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
On November 25 2010 07:11 avilo wrote: People keep trying to cite GSL games where "Terran won" as evidence that Terran doesn't have a tough time, which is not true. The easiest Z style to beat is aggressive baneling busting. You defend -> win. Exactly, other people keep trying to cite GSL games where "Zerg won" as evidence that Terran has a tough time, which may or may not be true. The easiest T styles to beat are all these stupid one-base all-ins that terran come up with because they can't be bothered to try experimenting late game. You defend -> win. About Select vs Haypro: Select was 20 food behind Haypro the whole game, he never tried to attain any sort of critical mass until it was far too late, he was just tossing units for fun and only ever got +1 infantry weapons at like 18 minutes in. I also remember something Select said in-game at MLG DC finals where he mentioned something about not having any Zerg practice partners :/ About Catz vs qxc: I love what qxc is doing, a little bit of better positioning and this could be awesome, he just wouldn't stop getting caught with all his tanks unsieged or with his army abandoning them, or without missile turrets, thors attacking lings instead of blowing up like 20 mutas. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On November 25 2010 08:33 Dente wrote: Can you explain what select should have done then? He tried to pressure the zerg, because if you don't, the zerg will be on 5 base and 80 drones. Yes, but he never actually killed a Z hatchery or sniped enough drones for the amount of infantry that he lost. That's why you're supposed to use banshees or hellions, unless you're absolutely sure you can kill a hatch, because once u step on creep - u commit that infantry force to do or die, and select never did enough dmg with his marines. His mistakes should be evident to any decent mid-diamond tvz-er. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 25 2010 07:46 SCC-Faust wrote: You should really read the posts in this thread. And Rainbow's TvZ is by far his weakest match-up. Artosis and Tasteless made this comment during GSL 1, and I believe during GSL 2 also. If I remember correctly Rainbow didn't hit a single Zerg in GSL 1 all the way up until Fruit Dealer. Which is sort of ironic because avilo used this point in his defense, saying "Even Rainbow is using all-in rushes because TvZ late game is impossible". Funny that, I must say, considering that he probably did feel it was his best chance, because his TvZ is definitely lacking. I'd love to be able to pull up the interviews Rainbow had during GSL 1. And how exactly does a 4-3 qualify as "so much better" than Fake Boxer? If you want to argue that Zerg is impossible to beat in late game, just watch Clide vs Leenock. Clide was comfortable playing late game, he even OPTED TO. His build was intentionally for it. And he did amazing. If you even watched the last game of the set, Clide was 2-3 bases behind all game but was holding on and fighting. His SCV count was also somewhat low from the constant Mutalisk harass. I think both players played amazing that game. He built only banelings and mutas... | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 25 2010 08:06 SCC-Faust wrote: Maybe, I don't know. I thought Leenock played very good though. And I don't know what Boxer's thought process was in cheesing. He proved he can play late-game TvZ in the round of 8 against Kyrix. Just as Clide proved he could play late game TvZ last night. You're definitely looking at this wrong though. You are saying Terran can't play late game against Zerg because some Terran opted to do rushes. There are some games where Terran DID play late game against Zerg and won. Why are you just throwing out half of the games? Do you not want them to count? I hope you're kidding. "He proved he can play late-game TvZ vs kyrix?" That's a joke. Kyrix does 2 base baneling bust every single ZvT. That's the style that Terran CAN beat. No one has any doubts about that. It's the defensive zerg infestor/baneling + muta harrass style into army re-maxes that is unkillable. It's fine if you want to say clyde played a macro game last night versus leenock...because he did...but leenock built all baneling muta with like 3 infestor versus mass tanks marines....yeah... fruitdealer, cool, even idra, knows how to make more units than just baneling mutas when they see all tank marine. Usually the response is to get broodlords asap and use infestors to grab onto any viking clumps they get. It was a good macro game...but look at the map too. lol. jungle basin... And boxer's thought process in cheesing is the same as all other terrans right now. Win the game b4 they go into invincible mode. | ||
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
On November 25 2010 10:07 avilo wrote: I hope you're kidding. "He proved he can play late-game TvZ vs kyrix?" That's a joke. Kyrix does 2 base baneling bust every single ZvT. That's the style that Terran CAN beat. No one has any doubts about that. It's the defensive zerg infestor/baneling + muta harrass style into army re-maxes that is unkillable. It's fine if you want to say clyde played a macro game last night versus leenock...because he did...but leenock built all baneling muta with like 3 infestor versus mass tanks marines....yeah... fruitdealer, cool, even idra, knows how to make more units than just baneling mutas when they see all tank marine. Usually the response is to get broodlords asap and use infestors to grab onto any viking clumps they get. It was a good macro game...but look at the map too. lol. jungle basin... And boxer's thought process in cheesing is the same as all other terrans right now. Win the game b4 they go into invincible mode. Fruitdealer, cool and IdrA are two very good Zerg players indeed. Edit: I hope you understood the implications of what you said, Avilo :/ | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
And clearly, if all the Zerg in GSL are doing the wrong things, maybe you should switch to Zerg and head over for GSL 4. That or become apart of the profitable part of SC2 and offer Zerg lessons. I'd sure like to be taught by someone who knows how to play an undefeatable ZvT strategy. Why are you such a self-defeatist? Obviously I'm not going to debate against someone who knows the metagame perfectly and understands progamer styles better than themselves (cause honestly I don't think Kyrix has any idea he is playing the easiest build to counter for Terran if he keeps doing it, maybe you should shoot him a message). | ||
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Minus`
United States174 Posts
On November 24 2010 04:05 avilo wrote: and yes, I know I take a lot of flak for being outspoken on the boards about this stuff. That's fine. Bring it. But I wonder if people can manage to attack my arguments instead of me personally. If you honestly feel Terran can compete with Zerg in a late game macro management game, I would be happy to see your arguments. I'm sure you'll have plenty of GSL games to back those up as well (LOL). We're reaching a point where there is evidence that Terran can compete with Zerg in late game macro; yes, it's hard, but no, it isn't unfair. There have been GSL games to back it up (LOL). You haven't been presenting further arguments. Kyrix's style is "one-dimensional" even after showing he can play macro games, but Foxer apparently showed Terrans the way with marine and SCV all-ins -- which is still trendy, but is becoming steadily more stoppable/predictable. I also agree with SCC-Faust above in that it seems like you didn't watch Clide vs Leenock -- you're really missing out, the games were damned good. You're saying the same things (omg terran can't even play lategame vs zerg might as well quit) but there's practically no evidence of that now -- you're basing your entire remaining argument on "lol. jungle basin" and the aggressive early game style of a few players, suggesting that that's the only way to play the game because Zerg is broken. Terran is strong early game, Zerg is strong lategame. It's an uphill battle for Zerg to survive in the early game, and it's uphill for Terran to survive later on, but for some reason this is being interpreted as "The only way for Terran to win is to all-in ASAP". IdrA, and others here have made really strong points. It's time to get away from the defeatist mentality that Zerg is unstoppable in TvZ lategame and start using your damned skills at this game to push the meta forward. The game is young enough for there to be some room to innovate, and you're clearly good enough to do so. Jump on it. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 25 2010 11:26 MinusPlus wrote: We're reaching a point where there is evidence that Terran can compete with Zerg in late game macro; yes, it's hard, but no, it isn't unfair. There have been GSL games to back it up (LOL). You haven't been presenting further arguments. Kyrix's style is "one-dimensional" even after showing he can play macro games, but Foxer apparently showed Terrans the way with marine and SCV all-ins -- which is still trendy, but is becoming steadily more stoppable/predictable. I also agree with SCC-Faust above in that it seems like you didn't watch Clide vs Leenock -- you're really missing out, the games were damned good. You're saying the same things (omg terran can't even play lategame vs zerg might as well quit) but there's practically no evidence of that now -- you're basing your entire remaining argument on "lol. jungle basin" and the aggressive early game style of a few players, suggesting that that's the only way to play the game because Zerg is broken. Terran is strong early game, Zerg is strong lategame. It's an uphill battle for Zerg to survive in the early game, and it's uphill for Terran to survive later on, but for some reason this is being interpreted as "The only way for Terran to win is to all-in ASAP". IdrA, and others here have made really strong points. It's time to get away from the defeatist mentality that Zerg is unstoppable in TvZ lategame and start using your damned skills at this game to push the meta forward. The game is young enough for there to be some room to innovate, and you're clearly good enough to do so. Jump on it. Anyone remember this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101782 Chill wrote that pre-release. Since the game is much more figured out now...that's why TvZ is in the state it's in. Zergs know how to be untouched later into the game now = hello massive economy advantage. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
Funny thing is most people think banelings are imbalanced or broodlords or ultras, which is all wrong. Upgraded lings coupled with infestors are what's scary, because they can both stall the terran army forever. Now I'm not saying it's impossible to win or anything, but people have to realize that terran tier 3 is actually garbage and one of the main reasons terrans are able to win is due to better upgrades than Z. Terran tier 3 = 3/3 upgrades on infantry, and honestly it's just not enough against infestor/ling/BL + Larva inject. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + i mean seriously, i dont know how else to respond to a petty argument except with my own pettiness terran has always needed to do 2 base timing attacks on zerg's third since bw. i see no difference in sc2 | ||
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Swixi
United States73 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Since you've made this post, Terrans have gone 3-1 against Zerg with 1 scv/allin occuring, and several of the games reaching the late game. You're undoubtedly wrong. Be humble, accept that you don't know everything about this matchup (nobody does), and practice your macro strategies. Or, continue to be willfully ignorant. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On November 25 2010 13:42 billyX333 wrote: Avilo, please teach alivefou how to play tvz. he clearly has not gotten the memo + Show Spoiler + i mean seriously, i dont know how else to respond to a petty argument except with my own pettiness terran has always needed to do 2 base timing attacks on zerg's third since bw. i see no difference in sc2 On November 25 2010 13:57 Swixi wrote: Are you even watching the GSL games, Avilo? + Show Spoiler + Since you've made this post, Terrans have gone 3-1 against Zerg with 1 scv/allin occuring, and several of the games reaching the late game. You're undoubtedly wrong. Be humble, accept that you don't know everything about this matchup (nobody does), and practice your macro strategies. Or, continue to be willfully ignorant. jungle basin, banelings vs tanks, impossible to secure third. Don't let GOMTV's shitty map rules fool you. Most series that start with T winning game 1, and then jungle basin being game 2...are gonna be T win. Just like tvz series that have Z winning game one and then scrap station being game 2...yeah... Compare the two maps. One of those two lets Zerg play into lategame macro game, T loses, guess which map of those two that is? The other map makes it impossible for Zerg to secure a third...guess which map? Enough said. Next time b4 you post something inane thinking "omg i'm so witty i'll just post the recent GSL tvz games" try analyzing them before you post. like sadist said, wait till you see some good infestor turtle zvt players...instead of these idiotic..."i'm gonna keep massing MOAR LING BANELING vs siege tanks!" also if you notice game 2 of leenock on jungle basin, he knew just like every other zerg what breaks marine tank easily - broodlords. But he could never get there because ZvT is broken in favor of T on that map...he never had a secure third almost all game long. so yeh...if you're gonna be smartasses and post "so n so gsl game" analyze them, otherwise it's just like me going "did you just fuckin see moon vs butterflyeffect EL O EL" | ||
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Minus`
United States174 Posts
On November 25 2010 13:16 avilo wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 25 2010 11:26 MinusPlus wrote: We're reaching a point where there is evidence that Terran can compete with Zerg in late game macro; yes, it's hard, but no, it isn't unfair. There have been GSL games to back it up (LOL). You haven't been presenting further arguments. Kyrix's style is "one-dimensional" even after showing he can play macro games, but Foxer apparently showed Terrans the way with marine and SCV all-ins -- which is still trendy, but is becoming steadily more stoppable/predictable. I also agree with SCC-Faust above in that it seems like you didn't watch Clide vs Leenock -- you're really missing out, the games were damned good. You're saying the same things (omg terran can't even play lategame vs zerg might as well quit) but there's practically no evidence of that now -- you're basing your entire remaining argument on "lol. jungle basin" and the aggressive early game style of a few players, suggesting that that's the only way to play the game because Zerg is broken. Terran is strong early game, Zerg is strong lategame. It's an uphill battle for Zerg to survive in the early game, and it's uphill for Terran to survive later on, but for some reason this is being interpreted as "The only way for Terran to win is to all-in ASAP". IdrA, and others here have made really strong points. It's time to get away from the defeatist mentality that Zerg is unstoppable in TvZ lategame and start using your damned skills at this game to push the meta forward. The game is young enough for there to be some room to innovate, and you're clearly good enough to do so. Jump on it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101782 Chill wrote that pre-release. Since the game is much more figured out now...that's why TvZ is in the state it's in. Zergs know how to be untouched later into the game now = hello massive economy advantage. Sup avilo, you didn't actually address anything I said. Here's a link. http://sotg-sc2.blogspot.com/2010/11/sotg-ep21.html This actually isn't from pre-release. It's actually from yesterday and the SotG guys directly responded to your blogs about TvZ. Thoughts? | ||
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Obscura.304
150 Posts
On November 25 2010 13:16 avilo wrote: Anyone remember this? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101782 Chill wrote that pre-release. Since the game is much more figured out now...that's why TvZ is in the state it's in. Zergs know how to be untouched later into the game now = hello massive economy advantage. Yeah, and in the article they link from that one, they claim that 1-hatch Hydra is a great ZvT build, lol. They also claim that Terrans will always MULE instead of scan, unless forced to do otherwise by cloaked units. Articles based on pre-public builds of the game have absolutely no relevance to what we're playing now. | ||
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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On June 03 2010 10:16 avilo wrote: This thread is just going to promote more whining and "NERF MECH" instead of actually looking for gameplay + strategic solutions. Idra and Artosis are good Zergs but they themselves are not beyond the "it's imba" as well. I remember them complaining severely about the roach nerf, yet they were entirely 100% elation pre-roach nerf where ZvT was autowin late game. How strange! Instead of making threads trying to fear monger the "omg it's imba, nerf it blizzard," start proposing late game styles and things to do in the game, such as more nydus usage. Obviously Blizzard knows what they are doing and mech is not going to be nerfed, but here is something they can do: There is still more to be explored ZvT is all i'm saying. If there's anything you should be looking at for a legitmate nerf, it should not be the actual units right now, perhaps sensor towers are actually too powerful and their radius of vision should be slightly reduced  avilo - top players in this thread have disagreed with your arguments. Statistics from high level play also indicate that ZvT is much more balanced than you make it out to be. Your past advice to zerg players (ie shut up and play better) was good. Similar solution to what you provided zerg players: just drop more | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cx3Zg.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BxWIn.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sEGOj.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L4V4X.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6RrVV.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CWyRb.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/crZrF.jpg) replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?6v241xu884pwdrp | ||
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EPT
