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On November 26 2010 04:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think avilo's style of arguing invalidates his points. basically he writes some stuff that is correct but then as a direct consequence of blatant exaggeration it actually becomes incorrect. (as "zerg is advantaged if they reach the lategame unpunished" is a very different statement from "zerg is invincible unless they're killed early". )
and watching someone butcher their own valid arguement like this is to me quite saddening.
the fact is that the new special abilities of all the races (queen+ creep bonus for zerg, mule for terran and chrono boost for protoss) are all overpowered at certain stages of the game.
mules are ridiculously good in situations where both players are short on peons (meaning that terran players should inherently be aiming for a low-econ style of play.. this is something that has been mentioned many times, but apparently not sufficiently grasped by some - 50 peons vs 50 peons means that each mule is hardly of any importance, 6 peons vs 6 peons means one mule gives one player twice the income.)
creep suddenly being a resource means that zerg units have to be either too good on creep or not good enough away from creep - now that zergs are finally starting to do a good job creeping we see the consequences. additionally, this obviously is a lategame boost because more creep will normally be spread the further into the game we go.
queens being worth more than a hatchery in production capabilities, and being able to make infinite larvea in late game, is definitely overpowered in a situation where both players are at limit and where both players have a lot of resources saved up. there's no question about this.
as for protoss, chrono boost has left protoss fucked over because the one area where chrono boost really shines - allowing them to tech to something or attain a unit combination really really fast - has been nerfed through increased build time or nerfing of those units.. in late game it's practically worthless compared to what mules and queens can do.
but, this is nothing new to the starcraft franchise. for years of brood war the counter to mass carrier in tvp was "don't let him get there". a mere couple months ago the counter to a turtled 200 200 terran in zvt sc2 was "don't let him get there". on destination in bw the exact same scenario also had the same counter, "don't let him get there". prior to 3/3 200/200 mech becoming popular in bw, terrans on the other hand had to play a "don't let him get there" style of play with regard to zergs having 4+ gas mining with defiler tech.
so basically, deal with it. if you're unhappy with your chosen race happening to be one that needs to rely upon harassment and which thrives in low-econ style games, change race. the game is a couple months old and is aiming at a lifespan nearing eternity. when races are as different as they are in bw or sc2, they will be stronger in different scenarios. zerg's biggest singular advantage compared to terran or protoss is their ability to spend huge amounts of resources in a short amount of time, terran has the advantage that it's impossible to attack them cost-efficiently and that all of their crap can be healed or repaired quickly, protoss has the ability to warp units anywhere on the map.. avilo has a point but he's arguing it in such an off-putting way that he's actually de-convincing people and I can't say I'm very sympathetic towards him.
no he's actually just flat out wrong
mules+pf's+terran unit efficiency and defensive capabilities means that properly played terran is just fine, at worst, in a macro game. as a ton of terrans in gsl are starting to show. its not a 'dont let him get there' its a 'learn how to play the game instead of being dependent on allins'
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any good point you may have is completely smothered by your gross exaggerations and aggressive arguing and stubbornness.
And idra is completely right. we have SEEN good terrans in GSL showing strong, strong macro play. their sheer defensive capabilities makes it very easy for them to macro hard.
watch Clide vs Leenock. Leenock can't take out a single missile turret with 20 mutas becos SCVs form a little repair ring. You can't kill a PF without Tier 3 units, or at an enormous cost (like 25 banelings). I don't know how with this kind of enormously strong defensive capability, along with MULEs, terran can say that they cant win a macro game.
On November 24 2010 05:14 xxpack09 wrote:
Here's the issue, and its been an issue I've been talking about forever
YEAH I KILLED THIRTY DRONES WITH MY AWESOME HARASSMENT!!!
-> spawn larvae @ 4 bases with 4 queens
-> 28 new drones
It's simply way too easy for zerg to out-power the other races with their macro mechanic
I can't even begin to explain how much posts like this make me rage. I see this ALL THE TIME. Can people please, please get it into their heads THAT WE USE LARVA FOR ARMY AND WORKERS.
If I just make 28 drones np, I am making ZERO army whatsoever. So while I'm trying to replenish my workers, I am completely unable to make army.
People need to realise larva is a RESOURCE. And by killing drones that I have to remake, you are costing me that resource. This is exactly why its good to pressure Zerg into making units. It's not to make him spend 200 minerals on 8 lings or whatever, noone gives a shit about 200 minerals, its the 4 larva that is so costly.
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well zelniq just owned this blog
gg avilo
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On November 26 2010 12:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
well zelniq just owned this blog
gg avilo
Not really. And the macro games people keep referencing are TvZs on jungle basin...lol. This is like me trying to support my argument and only referencing ZvT's on scrap station...
edit: also i hope people realize players practice things on ladder...yes, that's right, what a strange concept!
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On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 12:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
well zelniq just owned this blog
gg avilo Not really. And the macro games people keep referencing are TvZs on jungle basin...lol. This is like me trying to support my argument and only referencing ZvT's on scrap station...
The game people keep referencing was a TvZ on shakuras plateau. Seriously.
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Well, pretty bad macro game by avilo there. Once you deny their expo you have to expo and get a few hellion/banshees to defend the counter attack. Then you're way ahead in macro. In my experience 2 port banshee follow-up rarely works.
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omg zelniq is a hero
On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 12:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
well zelniq just owned this blog
gg avilo Not really. And the macro games people keep referencing are TvZs on jungle basin...lol. This is like me trying to support my argument and only referencing ZvT's on scrap station...
What about the "macro" game referenced on Metalopolis? Your "macro" game.
You can say "i was having a bad game" and thats fine, it happens. It would be wrong to judge you off a single game.
BUT...
You were QQ'ing hard in that game, claiming your macro was good etc. and Zelniq just won 'cause he was Zerg. If you're blaming balance in that game, then you could be blaming balance in this thread on other games like that one.
Which means the problem is probably with your own inability to recognise your flaws and improve the holes in your game, and not to do with balance.
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I suggest you stop posting in the strategy section avilo, your posts as of late are not not positive for strategic growth. All i see from you is a guy carried by his race now suddenly finding its hard to play.
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Why cant you guys relax and just play the game for fun? Yes it isnt balanced yet, but what would you expect from a game that came out not too long ago? Liquid'Drone is right in the sense that if you dont like the way your race current plays out, just change race.
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TvZ is difficult but no where near imbalanced. The most important thing Terran's have to keep in mind is that we can produce SCV's constantly, whereas zerg must choose between drones/units. There is no excuse for T to not be pushing out randomly and turning back constantly throughout a match. Honestly if you just push towards a watchtower on your side of the map and kill off the zergling there, he will produce more units and have no clue you turned back.
Knowing timings is pretty important as well. For example if you go 1 rax expo into mass barracks, you have a pretty strong timing window to damage the zerg just as mutas pop and baneling speed is not completed(kind of like the 9 minute push in BW without a full tech tree).
If you go to the lategame on even terms with a Zerg, you really aren't behind at all. Once both races hit 70-80 workers it just comes down to map control, army engagement, and being aware of possible tech switches. Yes you have to outplay the zerg a lot of the time since they have the speedy harass units.
"defend into free-win" makes no sense. Watch your replays and you'll know there are a millions things you could have done better.
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On November 26 2010 13:03 MinusPlus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote:On November 26 2010 12:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
well zelniq just owned this blog
gg avilo Not really. And the macro games people keep referencing are TvZs on jungle basin...lol. This is like me trying to support my argument and only referencing ZvT's on scrap station... The game people keep referencing was a TvZ on shakuras plateau. Seriously.
You mean nada's game where he got an early game advantage from aggro?
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On November 26 2010 13:59 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 13:03 MinusPlus wrote:On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote:On November 26 2010 12:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
well zelniq just owned this blog
gg avilo Not really. And the macro games people keep referencing are TvZs on jungle basin...lol. This is like me trying to support my argument and only referencing ZvT's on scrap station... The game people keep referencing was a TvZ on shakuras plateau. Seriously. You mean nada's game where he got an early game advantage from aggro?
On November 25 2010 01:55 Swixi wrote:
Watch Leenock vs. Nada
Watch Kyrix vs. JSL
Watch Clide vs. Leenock
It's easily doable. Great games of TvZ can be played, and the whining is extremely off-putting.
On November 25 2010 07:46 SCC-Faust wrote:
If you want to argue that Zerg is impossible to beat in late game, just watch Clide vs Leenock.
Clide was comfortable playing late game, he even OPTED TO. His build was intentionally for it.
And he did amazing. If you even watched the last game of the set, Clide was 2-3 bases behind all game but was holding on and fighting. His SCV count was also somewhat low from the constant Mutalisk harass. I think both players played amazing that game.
On November 25 2010 11:26 MinusPlus wrote:
I also agree with SCC-Faust above in that it seems like you didn't watch Clide vs Leenock -- you're really missing out, the games were damned good.
On November 26 2010 12:15 Subversion wrote:
watch Clide vs Leenock
By the way, I think you should watch Clide vs Leenock.
And sure, the nada game works, too -- as long as you aren't saying "oh that one where he got an early advantage from aggro?" as if Terran isn't supposed to be trying for an early game advantage with aggro.
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when players much much better than you (ret and idra) say you are bad and wrong about everything and then zelniq posts a replay proving your macro is awful then it might just be time to throw in the towel and admit you have some improvements to make and that you just might not be great at this game
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On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 12:22 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
well zelniq just owned this blog
gg avilo edit: also i hope people realize players practice things on ladder...yes, that's right, what a strange concept!
are you trying to say you were practicing bad macro on the ladder? what strategies involve getting supply blocked and stockpiling resources?
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On November 26 2010 12:56 avilo wrote:
also i hope people realize players practice things on ladder...yes, that's right, what a strange concept!
Yes, everyone practices how to be supply blocked for 90 seconds
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So when's the $1000 bo7 with you as Z and ret as T going down.
If Zerg is so imba you should win easily, right? Should be an easy 1k for you. After all, you are the one that challenged him, not the other way around.
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On October 26 2010 02:51 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 00:28 avilo wrote:How coincidental  Considering how imba Z is right now, especially versus T, I have been experimenting with mass ravens, marines/med/tank as well...as it's the only thing that really seems viable long term...and even then, it still gets raped from Zergs. The only problem of why this will never work versus a good Zerg is because HSM is so slow that they always can run their entire ling/muta/baneling/roach ball directly into your army and suicide it, and the HSMs actually help them more than you. It has some potential though... Here are some replays: Starting into mass raven if I remember right. Manage to kill lots of banelings with HSM, but that was more or less the Zerg's bad control than me doing something good. Unlike irradiate, HSM leaves the game in the hands of your opponent after it's cast  ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160483.jpg) I think I didn't pay attention for 1 split second, if I remember right...and lost 5000 marines. Otherwise this replay might be a mech replay lol. Can't remember. If it's mech, you can lol @ how hard zerg can crush that now too with late game ultras + neural. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160487.jpg) This one is an incredibly long TvZ with marine/tank/raven/medivac into -> Zerg macros and defends -> muta harrasses you -> into you lose. Which is basically every TvZ this patch. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-160488.jpg) You seem to have gone for a 1-1-1 with a FE. The thing about that vs mass marine is that you can't apply pressure. :-\
Look at the third replay. We see that avilo was doing quite okay (he even brought the drone count down to 11 with an early hellion drop), the only issue is that he transitioned into herp derping and that is never what a terran should do, we clearly see him staying in the middle of the map stimming marines that, in the end, made it so that his marines died automatically to fungal growth when Z decided to do something (60-80 marines stationed at 15 health =D ), not to mention he did not even try to defend the expos he tried to set up. I haven't watched the other replays he posted in the said thread ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605¤tpage=18#348) , but they are most likely just as bad...
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On November 26 2010 14:42 koreasilver wrote:
So when's the $1000 bo7 with you as Z and ret as T going down.
If Zerg is so imba you should win easily, right? Should be an easy 1k for you. After all, you are the one that challenged him, not the other way around.
Ia ret's TvZ in sc2 good? I remember he had the best TvZ in the foreigner scene in BW.
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love how avilo puts all his arguments on gsl games but doesnt seem to actually watch any of them
at least not the ones that disprove his theories tho
seems to conveniently miss those
also just glossing over the zelniq post without really commenting
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On November 26 2010 14:54 Microlisk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 14:42 koreasilver wrote:
So when's the $1000 bo7 with you as Z and ret as T going down.
If Zerg is so imba you should win easily, right? Should be an easy 1k for you. After all, you are the one that challenged him, not the other way around. Ia ret's TvZ in sc2 good? I remember he had the best TvZ in the foreigner scene in BW.
I dunno, I haven't actually watched one sc2 ret game. But avilo will probably get overlord blocked for 90seconds and not inject larva for 2 minutes or something and let the T take half the map so I don't think ret will lose if avilo doesn't dodge.
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EPT
