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On November 30 2010 12:23 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 06:00 koreasilver wrote:
Its only in the past year that Terrans have really learned how to play lategame against a 4gas Zerg in BW. For years and years before that a 4gas Zerg was considered to be unbeatable in standard TvZ. The whole lategame mass tank transition didn't exist until very recently. So yes, there really was a "if I let him stabilize his fourth then I'm going to autolose to ultras and swarm" I don't think that is accurate about BW... TvZ before ultra macro Flash mode was more about keeping the Vessel cloud alive than anything. I don't think anyone considered 4gas Zerg unbeatable (unless they were a whining C level player), but certainly the style popular in the proscene was two-base heavy army heavy harass terran, which by it's nature requires successful attacks. But you can back pretty far and see Terrans playing very macro heavy styles, especially on maps like Arcadia which is about 5 years ago now. What was really happening with BW was that Zergs were teching super fast to defilers because of Savior, so leaving the Zerg alone was much more dangerous. These days Zergs are staying on Lair tech a little longer cause Terrans have gotten really good vs fast defiler play... To be honest you need a few 100 pages to talk about how BW has evolved... Blanket statements like '200/200 terran is unbeatable TvP" and "4gas zerg is the end of the road TvZ" is just over simplified and wrong. The important factors in BW are not that the zerg has 4 gas, but how he got to it and where is opponent is at that point in time.
Yeah, it was all about the vessel clouds but the general idea of a 4gas Zerg being a death sentence in TvZ was a pretty widely held idea for a long time and it was expressed quite a bit amongst the MSL/OGN casters and high level players on TL. Progamers usually don't say these things overtly but it was very much expressed by how the way Terrans played. This mentality has been pretty apparent since around when Jaedong and Flash began to tear up the scene after Bisu lost to Mind and it carried on until basically this year when Flash went into bonjwa-mode. The whole thing is a bit over-simplified but it really was a general thought that was in the matchup for years, and this isn't an exaggeration.
Especially for the use of tanks in the lategame. If we look at TvZs in the time frame of the post-Savior era up to before Flash's god-mode phase (Fantasy did the mass tanks thing earlier but he never took it into a standard lategame management strategy), then all we are going to see is lategame SK play. A personal anecdote for me is when I suggested that it would have been better for Flash to add a factory rather than a third starport in his game against Jaedong in RH3 which was met with wide disapproval amongst other people. It is true that most people in LR threads are idiots but then again, it was Flash's own decision to put more and more resources into vessels rather than tanks even when Jaedong started using hydras with his defilers. This mentality was seen in basically every Terran which then led to seeing most Terrans just crumble if the Zerg secured his fourth gas without taking horrendous damage.
Obviously even this didn't consider people to find the game imbalanced and still in favour of the Terran in TvZ for various other reasons, but the whole 4-gas-Zerg-omg was something I heard pretty often from people that are very respected. I really agree that all this is very, very generalized and I might be wrong in some areas. This is something that Ver would know really, really well.
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yeah.. jinro vs moon kinda debunks this whole thread, lol.
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Baa?21245 Posts
Jinro says hi avilo.
@Sadistx: I do play SC2.
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On December 01 2010 20:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Jinro says hi avilo.
@Sadistx: I do play SC2.
Lol I thought of this as soon as the series ended.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
lol wat why the name change Megalisk?
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I was waiting for this to get bumped. Just kept f5'ing blogs until someone said something. And I agree, Jinro knows what's up.
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On December 01 2010 20:05 flamewheel wrote:
lol wat why the name change Megalisk?
he has a different name similar to his old one and his post count is significantly lower
hm...what could have happened
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Me and F91 discussed this in PM. Please stay on topic mr.mOnion. Or I will have to report you.
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On December 01 2010 20:02 NeVeR wrote:
yeah.. jinro vs moon kinda debunks this whole thread, lol.
To be honest Moon isn't playing that well, he was really sloppy in game 1 and made some poor decisions.
FA on the other hand played GREAT.
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Moon thought roaches were a good tech choice on scrap station and apparently doesn't know about hive tech or infestors.
That's why he lost, not because of "amazing Jinro macro". It's SC2, I'd be surprised if someone didn't have near perfect macro with MBS.
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we need another avilo vid explaining why/how Jinro's wins don't mean anything. 
Oh it's just Moon playing sloppy? Ok! T_T
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On December 01 2010 20:27 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 20:02 NeVeR wrote:
yeah.. jinro vs moon kinda debunks this whole thread, lol. To be honest Moon isn't playing that well, he was really sloppy in game 1 and made some poor decisions. FA on the other hand played GREAT.
hey boblion(sphere)
i'm bobtiger 
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On December 01 2010 20:02 NeVeR wrote:
yeah.. jinro vs moon kinda debunks this whole thread, lol.
No. Look at the games.
On December 01 2010 20:27 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2010 20:02 NeVeR wrote:
yeah.. jinro vs moon kinda debunks this whole thread, lol. To be honest Moon isn't playing that well, he was really sloppy in game 1 and made some poor decisions. FA on the other hand played GREAT.
Yep.
B4 I say anything btw...jinro played great
But let's look at the games.
Game 1:
Terran turtles. Moon builds mutas...to run from two turrets and a thor. They do nothing. Then he decides to suicide a lot of banelings/muta/roach into a choke vs a turtling terran, instead of taking his 4th, droning up, and getting infestors to get the Z re-max macro machine going.
This game was more jinro being way better than moon, than it having anything to do with zvt problems here.
Game 2:
Jinro does the same thing, except with banshee expo this game. After game1, to anyone watching, it's clear jinro skilll-wise is leagues ahead of moon.
That is verified when jinro is turtling taking his natural, moon decides instead of droning up and taking his third, to build 20+ zerglings that do absolutely nothing.
jinro was simply the better player. and moon was completely indecisive and as a player, very underwhelming. Which isn't surprising, as he is not nestea or check. His war3 background pretty much shined through, as well as his lack of practice or what not.
The maps didn't matter much here because jinro completely outclassed moon. Wait until we see a higher caliber of tvz coming up soon.
Btw, 1 series later, Terran MVP wins vs idra with two games both under 13 minutes. The game idra wins is a very unorthodox one on steppes where MVP made mistakes early where he could have won, but idra also played the map very good, getting his creep to the center and massing up to stop any push on his nat.
So yeah...MVP vs idra showed my "Terran wins b4 13 mins" is still pretty accurate analysis.
And jinro basically outclassed moon b4 the series even started. Jinro is the only TvZ person that I've liquibetted to win out of every liquibet i've had sooo... pretty sure most people here knew jinro was way better than moon. dunno why so many people think he's godly at sc2 just because he owned at war3.
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seems like everytime you make a post you are complaining about something.
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Seems like everytime a T beats a Z in GSL you have an excuse.
Everytime a Z beats a T its imbalanced.
You're so crazy-biased dude.
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On December 02 2010 10:27 Subversion wrote:
Seems like everytime a T beats a Z in GSL you have an excuse.
Everytime a Z beats a T its imbalanced.
You're so crazy-biased dude. Same thing I was thinking. Reminds me of the GSL 1 finals when Fruitdealer won. Everyone was suddenly like "OMG ZERG IS FINE" despite how terrible the terran played.
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Funny how this turned out
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On December 02 2010 10:27 Subversion wrote:
Seems like everytime a T beats a Z in GSL you have an excuse.
Everytime a Z beats a T its imbalanced.
You're so crazy-biased dude.
Seems like everytime I throw out objective analysis you guys are the ones whining, not me.
Look at the games - analyze them. I just did.
I did not even mention the maps much in that last tid bit I posted.
If you go look at the LR thread for GSL, and jinro's post in here, even Jinro doesn't dellude himself about cross position tvz metalopolis.
But two posts after he says that, you have noobies even ignoring what he just said and throwing a party "OMG T CAN DO MACRO GAME!!!" I think that's on page 204-205ish of that thread if you want some LuLZ
lol...
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avilo is going to be 70 years old in his rocking chair at the old folks home explaining to orderlies why zerg is imba in sc2 long after sc4 has been released.
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avilo should be put in a cage with AzureEye so we could make bets on who kills the other in mortal imba-combat.
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EPT
