EPTI predict what always tends to happen in these circumstances - the other race adapts to the new strategy. If it really is overpowered Blizzard will eventually patch it, even if its not on the time scale we want.
Expect more all-in TvZ games in SC2 - Page 17
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
I predict what always tends to happen in these circumstances - the other race adapts to the new strategy. If it really is overpowered Blizzard will eventually patch it, even if its not on the time scale we want. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
just seems like his head is always 3-feet deep in avilo's ass. basically just repeating what avilo says, but in an inflammatory and obnoxious manner. I don't even see the point of this thread actually. Basically avilo is crying that he can't win a game against Zerg that goes longer than 20 mins. But it seems more like he can't win a game where Zerg is 6-base to his 3-base, which shouldn't really be a surprise. If Zerg has control of 6-bases, its because you've been outplayed, not because Zerg is OP. User was warned for this post | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
these people are competing a 1st prize of $80k and most of them terran (90%) will do watever they can, or may i put it properly: 'abuse the game's imbalanceness' as best as they could to win. there is a reason of why not every zerg play like kyrix do early bling(which hurt the econ so much) but instead of build up strong econ to own mid/late game. same reason goes to all these kamikaze early scv all-in players - they have no/low macro skill anyway, why not just abuse the imba early pressure of terran. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On December 06 2010 13:00 Servius_Fulvius wrote: It's no mystery that the later the game goes on, the higher the zerg's advantage. It was the same in BW. that's definitely not true. the longer the game goes on, the more vessels terran gets, the more irradiates he has (i fucking hate eraser, i never have enough scourge around my bases to stop it), and he has the option of switching into an invincible mech army. also in zvp toss gets archon/temp/reaver = gg. | ||
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MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
Terrans don't play allin all the time because they want to avoid lategame... They avoid the lategame because they cannot play it because they allin all the time And I am serious with that! Consider the following: How much effort does it take to master mid and late game of a matchup and compare that with the effort of learning one build order and practise some marine micro .... Allins are really effective and an easy way to make a lot of ca$$$h in GSL I know you cannot take one game as an example (Jinro beating Moon with a macro based playstyle) BUT jinro practised his strategies against oGs member and idra/ret so he MUST have performed well in these games, otherwise he would not have chosen them!! | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
GSL Ro8 SPOILERS+ Show Spoiler + No zergs even made it to Ro4. Obviously this means zergs need buffs and TvZ is way too easy for terran. GSL 3 is obvious and irrefutable proof of this. /s | ||
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news
892 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:11 Tsagacity wrote: Since Avilo loves to make knee-jerk reactions based off of small subsets of games: GSL Ro8 SPOILERS+ Show Spoiler + No zergs even made it to Ro4. Obviously this means zergs need buffs and TvZ is way too easy for terran. GSL 3 is obvious and irrefutable proof of this. /s There must be an explanation to this. Games probably went the wrong way, I didn't watch but they had to. I'm sure we will hear why soon enough. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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dasanivan
United States532 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:11 Tsagacity wrote: Since Avilo loves to make knee-jerk reactions based off of small subsets of games: GSL Ro8 SPOILERS+ Show Spoiler + No zergs even made it to Ro4. Obviously this means zergs need buffs and TvZ is way too easy for terran. GSL 3 is obvious and irrefutable proof of this. /s + Show Spoiler + i don't understand. avilo was saying expect more all in games and that's exactly what we saw. at this point i dont know whether zerg lategame is overpowered or not, but we know for a fact that all-ining is less of a risk than taking it to mid/lategame | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On December 07 2010 05:23 dasanivan wrote: He's also been saying Z>T+ Show Spoiler + i don't understand. avilo was saying expect more all in games and that's exactly what we saw. at this point i dont know whether zerg lategame is overpowered or not, but we know for a fact that all-ining is less of a risk than taking it to mid/lategame | ||
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rick-dmg
Canada36 Posts
On December 07 2010 05:49 Tsagacity wrote: He's also been saying Z>T How is it not 100% obvious to people at this point? Terran is fine as long as they win it early. After that Z is massively favored to win (assuming they are around the same skill level). Anybody that has been watching the last two GSLs (2-3) can see this. The rare exceptions (Nada last season, and Jinro this season) aren't actually exceptions... they are one player outplaying the other. Virtually every other game has Terran winning early or losing late game. The pattern is so clear - I don't understand why anybody would try to deny this. | ||
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Zeroes
United States1102 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:11 Tsagacity wrote: Since Avilo loves to make knee-jerk reactions based off of small subsets of games: GSL Ro8 SPOILERS+ Show Spoiler + No zergs even made it to Ro4. Obviously this means zergs need buffs and TvZ is way too easy for terran. GSL 3 is obvious and irrefutable proof of this. /s Expect more all-in TvZ games in SC2 Basically everyone agrees that T>Z early game, but terrans are saying Z>T late game, and Z's are saying terrans should learn to play. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Read the title of this thread. Read the thread. Expect more all-in TvZ games in SC2. Zergs are whining because they're losing to BS coinflip all-ins, but they are perfectly content that the game stay in a state where they have a massive advantage late game and almost never lose there. Every time some tip top Zerg like idra/ret complain about the recent two raxes they usually leave out that, "oh btw, once [if] they patch this Zerg will never lose late game! ahahahaa!" A reason I made this thread is because I saw this bs happening, and inane forum posters hopping back on the bandwagons. Everyone was going to see massive amounts of TvZ all-ins, aggro games in GSL, and stupidly think "OMG TERRAN IS BROKEN AGAIN!" When the truth is that the match-up itself is pretty broken right now. The 2 rax and other weird all-ins seem very powerful early game, but virtually every game that Zerg has defended and stabilized they've won decidedly...Terrans are not just doing all-ins to "win"...it's because that's the best chance you have of winning a TvZ. You play a coin flippy all-in...you give yourself a nice percentage chance to win the game. You play a macro game versus Zerg...you're slowly going to your death. Sure, you'll stay in the game 15 minutes and Zerg noobs on the forum will applaud you, and Terrans will go "oh that was so close," but nah...Zerg has like 90% chances to win the game when it goes to that. So yeah...if people still think there is no problem with this match-up I do not know what to say. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
I'd much prefer watching any other matchup or mirror matchup over TvZ at the moment. game quality is so much worse than an average TvZ in broodwar. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On December 07 2010 06:24 rick-dmg wrote: How is it not 100% obvious to people at this point? Terran is fine as long as they win it early. After that Z is massively favored to win (assuming they are around the same skill level). Anybody that has been watching the last two GSLs (2-3) can see this. The rare exceptions (Nada last season, and Jinro this season) aren't actually exceptions... they are one player outplaying the other. Virtually every other game has Terran winning early or losing late game. The pattern is so clear - I don't understand why anybody would try to deny this. I highly disagree. If anything, the people with the better skill usually always win+ Show Spoiler + with the exception of Nestea and Fruit dealer, who lost to terrans mind you! I believe the assumption that "Zerg is OP late game" is very flawed and a diluted point. Yes, a zerg allowed to macro up to 5 bases tier 3 tech is very hard to beat, but that's why you don't let it go there. You harras, you force lings with a small push, you expand yourself and go for a timing push. All inning is just an indication that your'e worse than them, not that Z is OP.+ Show Spoiler + (For example TSL Rain said he was going to do more macro games but didn't have the time. When zerg wins, its usually because of just solid fundamentals, not some funky all in strats. And that's just what they are, all in. So obviously when a terran fails in his early push he will be way behind. Note there are plenty of macro games where people CAN compete with zerg, because they don't all in, they don't play risky because of a flawed belief that Zerg is unbeatable late game. Clide was behind like 50 food in game 3 of Clide vs. Leenoch and still managed to come back, even in front of food supply, because he just played solid, didn't go for the all in, and macroed. Jinro can beat plenty of zergs because he didn't all in, he plays standard, and is just funkilicious. Since most tvz/zvt games have all in's, its really that that determines the game, since terrans will be far behind if it fails and zerg far behind if it succedes. So games that go on further from that must be discounted. Yes there are games where terran attempts to play standard That's the difference. I really do believe that the macro aspect of zerg has contributed to just us becoming more solid, more safe. Rather than what I believe is just a confused stage in TvZ for terrans. Are all in's effective? Of course! Does that prove that you can't win a macro game(and not just a macro game, obviously put pressure) vs zerg??? NO! There's a reason why Fruit Dealer won GSL despite being like the only zerg in the Ro8, representing a "weak" race and still won. It's because he was just simply better. And that's why many zergs have fallen, because they either failed to the all in(which sadly doesn't indicate skill either) or just are worse. Even the all in's terrans do is determined by micro, not by some "all inish" things. That's one of the advantages terran has, they can really micro much better than zerg(barring mutalisks). You split marines, us splitting banelings usually isn't cost effective(1-1). You stim and kite, we run away. The only thing we really can do is hit, run back, hit, run back and snipe units(such as roaches and mutalisks.) Burrow is there, but really unused. This is getting longwinded so I guess I'll just close it now. Hope you at least understood my thoughts, and saw my side. Also @ Avilo, I would think if the zerg defends the ALL IN and stabilizes they would be in a massive advantage  | ||
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:44 LuckyFool wrote: I was watching those GSL games last night realizing how boring it is to even watch TvZ now too. Long games that zergs win feel lame half the time, they basically just drone up and become unbeatable, short games terran just scv/rine bunker rush allins which is stupid to watch so much too. both ends of the spectrum for TvZ just feel really bad now both to play and watch. I'd much prefer watching any other matchup or mirror matchup over TvZ at the moment. game quality is so much worse than an average TvZ in broodwar. I pretty much agree with this, I haven't bothered watching a TvZ, apart from Jinro, since like ro32, every series is the exact same. Thank God there are some Protoss this time around, or I wouldn't be watching at all. I honestly think that Korean Terrans have completely forgotten how to play mid or late game (if they knew in the first place lol xD), Jinro isn't the most exciting player at the moment because he's the only foreigner- but because he's one of the only people that I've seen that actually understands the game. I don't agree that Terran is underpowered in the late game, it's been demonstrated many times that they are pretty even at that point- it's just that they have a stupid advantage early on, and yeah it makes sense to exploit it. Terran all-ins really killed the GSL for me this season  | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:03 emperorchampion wrote: ...I honestly think that Korean Terrans have completely forgotten how to play mid or late game (if they knew in the first place lol xD), .... just FYI, people that say something equivalent to the above ridiculous statement will disappear into the void from meh blog... Go trash up gen SC2 discussion with "Korean Progamer Terrans who play 8 hrs a day obviously don't know how to play late game or never have considered it" if you want. ANd you prob shouldn't do that there either -_- Seriously... Also, you obviously think TvZ lategame is balanced if the only series you watched is jinro vs moon lol...I'd look up some other games if you wanna get good support for that argument. I think most people are chalking that up to moon's war3 macro/training < jinro's SC1+SC2 training+macro. Sorta makes me chuckle when people cite leenock vs clide, jinro vs moon for lategame references lol. It's like me citing the idra steppes of war game and then trying to claim " SEE ZERG IS FINE ON THAT MAP!" No. They aren't. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
Maybe the reason we don't see a terran dominating lategame is because of the lack of creativity. We haven't seen cattlebruisers or anything. Maybe the Terrans right now are so focused on winning early/mid game that they don't formulate strong late game strategies, and I don't think it's fair to see "because there are none because zerg dominate so hard". It's because we see the same thing... marines, thors, siege tanks...if we saw like ghost snipes or something we could easily see a new game where Zerg dominates. Leenock vs clide reference is valid... I mean why not? Even the news in teamliquid rated those games as some of the best games in GSL. | ||
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