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Expect more all-in TvZ games in SC2 - Page 16
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21243 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:50 Lemonwalrus wrote: avilo is going to be 70 years old in his rocking chair at the old folks home explaining to orderlies why zerg is imba in sc2 long after sc4 has been released. He might relapse and go back to explaining why Empire is imba in RA3. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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Kurt_Russell
Canada147 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:45 avilo wrote: Seems like everytime I throw out objective analysis you guys are the ones whining, not me. Look at the games - analyze them. I just did. I did not even mention the maps much in that last tid bit I posted. If you go look at the LR thread for GSL, and jinro's post in here, even Jinro doesn't dellude himself about cross position tvz metalopolis. But two posts after he says that, you have noobies even ignoring what he just said and throwing a party "OMG T CAN DO MACRO GAME!!!" I think that's on page 204-205ish of that thread if you want some LuLZ lol... Cool, now analyze a macro game where a terran loses (that is not your own, preferably). | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:45 avilo wrote: If you go look at the LR thread for GSL, and jinro's post in here, even Jinro doesn't dellude himself about cross position tvz metalopolis. But two posts after he says that, you have noobies even ignoring what he just said and throwing a party "OMG T CAN DO MACRO GAME!!!" I think that's on page 204-205ish of that thread if you want some LuLZ lol... You seriously have a warped sense of perception. The reason why everyone thinks your a lunatic isn't because you're constantly trying to make Terran look worse than they are by changing your initial argument many times throughout the thread... It is because most people in this thread are capable of a legitimate discussion and you don't even respond to them. No one ever said Terran won't have it very hard on some maps. Just like Zerg has it hard on some maps. And Protoss. Get over yourself. People aren't here to say Terran is overpowered or anything. They are trying to get your head out of the clouds. I'm not saying TvZ win ratio is 66% in GSL 3 because I think Terran is overpowered. I'm saying it so maybe you'll understand nothing is wrong with your race. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
We all have our races, we all have our own interests, every single one of us at least a little subjective, some more than others. The fact that you get so passionate and upset and angry or whatever just shows you're not objective. Someone completely objective doesn't get emotional about an issue. The only people who can really be objective about this are random players, or people who don't play the game, but the latter's opinion probably isn't that important. All this being said, to call your analysis "objective"... do you even manage to fool yourself? You're one of the most biased posters on TL, and I don't think many people would argue that. Being biased doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but people have to take what you say with a pinch of salt, and while there may be elements of truth in it, you tend to layer it with gross exaggerations that undermine your credibility. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
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Entropic
Canada2837 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:46 SCC-Faust wrote: I wonder if avilo watched Nestea vs Maka game 2. While it was an exciting game... Nestea was veerrrryyyy inefficient with his army. Maka came back in that game because Nestea lost most of his first 200/200 army of ling/baneling/muta without trading efficiently. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 02 2010 20:28 Entropic wrote: While it was an exciting game... Nestea was veerrrryyyy inefficient with his army. Maka came back in that game because Nestea lost most of his first 200/200 army of ling/baneling/muta without trading efficiently. zerg never trades efficiently vs late game t and p armies, the whole 'herpdy derp just insta remax' is pretty meaningless when lair armies trade for 3 marines. and if you can insta max on ultras or broods, well for one the units arent gonna be out for 2 minutes anyway, and if you can stockpile that many resources t/p did something wrong to get to that point in the game. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On December 02 2010 20:28 Entropic wrote: While it was an exciting game... Nestea was veerrrryyyy inefficient with his army. Maka came back in that game because Nestea lost most of his first 200/200 army of ling/baneling/muta without trading efficiently. Yeah losing the Brood Lords was careless. But still, even though I disagree with Maka's play (he didn't even drop or harass the Zerg until he was 200/200) - he managed to fight pretty damn good for being 3 bases against 6. I don't think he ever really had a chance once the Zerg took the map like that, but he held off and fought pretty damn long. As Tasteless showed when Maka was setting up his third, in Maka's vision only, he didn't even scout 3 of the Zerg bases that were up and running for a portion of that game (being two on the sides and the expansion behind the gold, Zerg took the gold after Maka took his gold). The only problem that game in my eyes was how great and efficient Mutalisks are. They kept him from harassing for the most part and it stops Terran in a lot of positions from doing their pushes when they want to. If Terran finds a way to deal with Mutalisk-heavy styles it'll definitely be easier imo. Although Maka could have definitely harassed... it just would've ended up as the typical sacrifice units to get Zerg's economy down. | ||
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Entropic
Canada2837 Posts
But yes, the key I think will be to employ a strategy that can mitigate the muta ball in the later part of the midgame (sort of the irradiate timing in BW stopping muta harass), so that the Terran can move out and pressure the zerg 3rd/4th | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On December 02 2010 20:32 IdrA wrote: zerg never trades efficiently vs late game t and p armies, the whole 'herpdy derp just insta remax' is pretty meaningless when lair armies trade for 3 marines. and if you can insta max on ultras or broods, well for one the units arent gonna be out for 2 minutes anyway, and if you can stockpile that many resources t/p did something wrong to get to that point in the game. You dont need to remax on ultras and broodlords. After you trade armies, all you need is a ton of lings and 20 banelings to "herpdy derp sucide" into any terran expo and force 100 seconds of lost income. Zerg may not trade efficiently against a sieged and spread out 200/200 army, but they are pretty fucking efficient against expos, reinforcements and hatch sniping armies that aren't 100 supply, i.e. everything else. T is only efficient if they are ahead on upgrades. I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding more blue flame hellions late game though, because that's the only real way to deal with broodlings and zerglings cost efficiently late game (marines suck vs speedlings if you are not ahead on upgrades) | ||
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Thetan
240 Posts
but they are pretty fucking efficient against expos Not if the expo is a PF, esp. with the building armor upgrade | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:52 koreasilver wrote: avilo should be put in a cage with AzureEye so we could make bets on who kills the other in mortal imba-combat. lol, I thought he WAS AzureEye ^^ Then, he would have been already banned if it was really him | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Did he lose the longer drawn out macro games... I'd say this thread and the analysis behind it are still very relevant. Jinro versus moon you can consider an outlier, mainly because moon is a war3 player that also has little practice, and jinro outclassed him b4 the games even started...so the maps weren't as much of a factor, let alone late game. A more refined zerg like nestea or check isn't gonna randomly build 20 zerglings to attempt an allin baneling bust versus sieged tanks. And then be indecisive and cancel them all or not do anything with them. Zerg like nestea would have known better to have made those lings in the first place. Then we just saw nestea vs maka...went exactly how I have described since page 1. Idra's series versus MVP also went the same way, with the weird steppes game in there too. He mainly had horrible luck with spawn points on meta though. So people are gonna chalk that up as another Terran win and forget about how Terran actually won that series. On December 02 2010 10:56 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: He might relapse and go back to explaining why Empire is imba in RA3. Very funny. But I don't think you've played ra3, or have read what i've ever said about the game, as I never once said empire was imbalanced in that game. If you wanna bring it up, empire was the weakest army up until the latest patch, where EA actually got something right and now RA3 is pretty much more balanced than SC2 is right now, especially in phases of the game like early, mid, late. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
 What are your thoughts on balance in Dawn of War 1 if you played it? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
We'll start seeing less SCV/marine all-in cheese and actually get some macro games out of Terrans. Then you can cry about late game balance once we see more than 3 TvZ games in the entirity of the tournament go beyond 15 minutes. SCV all-ins have everything to do with SCV all-ins being too good and nothing to do with late game so please stop trying to associate the two. | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On December 04 2010 01:19 Jermstuddog wrote: I've got your balance fix avilo, reduce marine firing rate by ~15% give or take. We'll start seeing less SCV/marine all-in cheese and actually get some macro games out of Terrans. Then you can cry about late game balance once we see more than 3 TvZ games in the entirity of the tournament go beyond 15 minutes. SCV all-ins have everything to do with SCV all-ins being too good and nothing to do with late game so please stop trying to associate the two. Ok let me try the zerg way of arguing to reply to this: "HURR DURR Fruitdealer proved u wrong buddy! Other games don't exist! Fruitdealer defended the allins so they are bad!! Hurr!!!11" | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
I play protoss so I don't know much about TvZ, but your reasons for why Zerg > Terran in lategame should apply to Zerg being > Protoss in late-game, and I really don't feel like this is the case. Obviously, Protoss's most cost-effective units are mobile 1 ball units which don't suffer too much from getting fungaled, have lots of health, can regen, and don't need to deploy, but Terran also has strengths to make up for this. I think with mules (not taking up supply and all,) even if at some point if zerg has 80 drones, then their main army will be only 120 pop worht of units, and if you cut scvs you can have a huge maxed army which will take out the entire 120 pop Zerg army with small casualties. Obviously, this army is probably not going to be super mobile, as it's gonna include tanks, thors, and etc. but I'm sure that there's a 160 pop terran army that with good positioning can take out just about any 120 pop zerg army regardless of its composition with minimal casualties, thus making the game balanced. edit: and even if this isn't so at the moment it's definitely possible theoretically, so Zerg's strong ability to reproduce their economy and army doesn't have to directly lead to their late-game being imbalanced. If zerg units are cost-ineffective enough in large armies the game can be balanced in the late-game, is what I'm saying. | ||
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Entropic
Canada2837 Posts
On December 02 2010 20:32 IdrA wrote: zerg never trades efficiently vs late game t and p armies, the whole 'herpdy derp just insta remax' is pretty meaningless when lair armies trade for 3 marines. and if you can insta max on ultras or broods, well for one the units arent gonna be out for 2 minutes anyway, and if you can stockpile that many resources t/p did something wrong to get to that point in the game. I never stipulated that in a typical scenario zerg armies will be able to trade efficiently (and what is efficient in terms of numbers with zerg is not the same for terran or protoss) with terran armies lategame. In retrospect, I think I shouldn't have used the term "efficiently", and more that he chose to attack in a very non-optimal position and came out much worse than had he chose to attack better (drops in the main maybe, even if his original intent was just to sac his first lower-tech army to free up supply for broods and ultras). Just that in that instance (that game 2 on Xel Naga), Nestea attack into the gold 3rd with bunkers and staggered tanks in that small chokepoint, hence he lost his whole army without doing much dmg to anything at all (maka still had most of his tanks). I think most zerg armies could come out better than that if they dont attack into small chokes like that. | ||
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