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On November 16 2010 11:12 avilo wrote:
such as you did, saying that SC2's micro is not as important or what not, etc.
Actually his point stands. With a hard counter system (like the damage system in sc2), micro does become less critical (read: this statement does not indicate that micro is not necessary). If you have 2 units, and unit a's damage type does double damage to unit b's and takes half the damage, unit b could still be micro'd to some effect, but it is an uphill battle and as such the outcome of the battle will depend less on micro than if the hard counter system was not in place. There are still many places where units can be micro'd successfully against other units (which on paper would beat them 1v1) but due to the nature of hard counters, it becomes less critical and instead the focus shifts towards a higher importance of army composition to hard counter your opponents'.
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Well, it will probably take Blizzard approximately 10 years to release the rest of the SC2 trilogy so I think we caught a break on that one.
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On November 16 2010 11:12 avilo wrote:I agree with a lot of what you said, and disagree with a lot too. The fights on the forum are pretty ridiculous and make you cringe when you open up one of those threads. And a lot of the newer SC2 blood that never played brood war, are in fact idiots. They say the most inane things without having the perspective to know better. But hardcore brood war players are no less at fault. A lot of times they're making the same stupid posts and arguments, such as you did, saying that SC2's micro is not as important or what not, etc. I think both sides are idiots tbh lol. The best side to be on is loving both games  i'm one of those people that absolutely loves brood war, and SC2, and can respect both games for what they are, and not go apeshit over SC2 taking over the Brood War scene. I'm sure there are a ton more that have similar respects for both games...but with all the forum bs from the SC2 vs SC1 stuff i'm sure they're lurking and not bothering posting lol. Both "camps" are fucking stupid for being in camps in the first place.
Oh I know I've been a bit less than civil, but I don't think I've said anything that isn't more or less valid.
I don't find anything "stupid" about my comment that micro isn't as critical in SC2 as in BW. I may have put it in a blunt and less-than-friendly way somewhere else on the forum, but I still stand by what I said. This blog isn't really intended to start up a balance war, so I won't get any further into it than that (I rather regret having included that mini-rant with my OP -_- ).
Again, the point of my post was to express my feelings as one who is explicitly and without doubt on the BW side. I play SC2 more than BW now (actually I'd stopped playing BW apart from UMS with friends almost a year ago), and I do enjoy SC2 a lot. I get along fine with people who've never played BW. I don't get along with people who've never played BW who also make ridiculous comments and call me out for not moving on... :\
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On November 16 2010 08:35 n00bination wrote:
Give it time. SCII is still a very young game. People haven't found out the best way to utilize all units yet. Remember, at this stage in the game, SCI was pretty much one-base all-ins too. Hopefully as time wears on, we will see some sort of play emerge that is reminiscent of the great BW moments.
I totally expected this answer as a first reply. It could even be a bot posting this as soon as he detects the 'SC2 fans vs BW fans' words in an OP...
About OP : I agree it's totally regrettable that a community built on BW changed quite radically, and that newcomers shit on BW... But at the meantime, it's totally normal that TL evolved and integrates SC2 in his content and community. I am sure that the awesome moderation team will get rid of the bad posters and there must be smart people among the newcomers brought by SC2 who will contribute. But it might take a year or two !
edit : Oh and regarding the BW > SC2 part, what I would like the most is an anonymous poll among the ex top foreign BW players in which they truthfully say if they like SC2 or BW more.
It is totally understandable that they switched because it's new / has a lot of cash tourneys / smaller skill gap between koreans and foreigners, I would probably have done the same myself, but I am sure than most of them would admit BW is a superior game 
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I think ya'll sound a bit too emotional. Maybe ya'll should go listen to some avril lavign or angel city, and tell the difference between your birthdays, and how every new year is not the same as the old ones. If I compared when I first started playing BW and came back to BW it felt like a completely new game. Back when I first started playing BW, my coach told me to never build cannons, but when I came back in 2010, everyone built cannons, especially in pvz.
Maybe you should just try to learn to play better, so ya'll can teach the new people how to really play. Once you figure out how to beat all the cheeses, and see the all ins, I'm sure you'll feel a lot better about the game, and be able to go back to BW and play with your grandkids.
User was banned for this post.
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honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. really boring game-centric units like banshees/mauraders/zerg/colossi will ALWAYS be in the game. expansions wont change that, at best they will just add other units that make those old ones not as important, but they'll still be there. high-ground advantage will NEVER be in the game. blizzard had their chance during the beta to make big changes and make the game better, but they really didnt do much.
basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW. unless the expansions are fucking AMAZING i doubt ill ever care about sc2 anymore.
I can still hold out hope that people will move back to BW in time, but really it wont happen. once BW dies i dont see myself moving to SC2, ill just go back to what life was like before starcraft...somehow.
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On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience.
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too.
I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors.
SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition.
If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership.
I really really like this post. However it is hard to not compare SC2 with BW considering they're both "Starcraft".
Also, credit to OP discussing the state of the forums at the moment, and the line of thought leading to why people are annoyed at people making such comments about BW.
However I do find your lack of faith disturbing  , if you love BW as you say you do, have faith in that the scene can continue.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169151 left a very deep impression of how deeply the BW scene is ingrained in Korean culture. They started the BW proscene, and I have faith in that their love of the game they spent 10 years building on to the point that Starcraft is shown on TWO channels every day, not just the pro games itself, but other variety programs (like the one with Shinae and July) showing their appreciation of the game. If they believe BW is still worth broadcasting, why wouldn't you?
OZ vs SKT is soon, shouldn't you be preparing to watch that? Might clear some of your worries~
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On November 16 2010 11:44 Ideas wrote:
honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW.
this this this
I considered making a blog post about all the things that I think are wrong with SC2 but I realized it wasn't worth the time; BW people would already know what I'm talking about whereas SC2 people would criticize me with the same tired arguments
("it's young, give it time, the expansions aren't even out yet" - "time and expansions won't matter if they don't fix the problems I'm talking about"
"BW is an 11 year old game, it's time to move on" - "uh no"
"blah blah blah i clearly did not read your post" - "you clearly did not read my post")
I don't want SC2 to fail and I don't hate it; it's is a pretty good game. But to me that's all it is - a game. BW is more than that, so it's hard not to be resentful about SC2 killing it. Things would be so much better if they fixed SC2's fundamental flaws but it's pretty clear that they're not going to.
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
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On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 11:44 Ideas wrote:
honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW. this this this I considered making a blog post about all the things that I think are wrong with SC2 but I realized it wasn't worth the time; BW people would already know what I'm talking about whereas SC2 people would criticize me with the same tired arguments ("it's young, give it time, the expansions aren't even out yet" - "time and expansions won't matter if they don't fix the problems I'm talking about" "BW is an 11 year old game, it's time to move on" - " uh no" "blah blah blah i clearly did not read your post" - "you clearly did not read my post") I don't want SC2 to fail and I don't hate it; it's is a pretty good game. But to me that's all it is - a game. BW is more than that, so it's hard not to be resentful about SC2 killing it. Things would be so much better if they fixed SC2's fundamental flaws but it's pretty clear that they're not going to. Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
I'm Terran.
Though my name seems to suggest otherwise. >.>
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I think the most insightful thing said is that (most) of us BW fans want so badly for SCII to be great, because we loved SCBW and we know that SCII is slowly taking it over. People can say all the bullshit they want about the two being separate games, but it's impossible not to compare them, and impossible not for SCII to tread on BW's space.
I want so badly for SCII to be great, I really do, and that's probably the most painful part right now - the thought that it won't be that great, it'll kill of the BW scene and then die out when the next shiny game comes out. Of course, only time will tell right now, with 2 expansions left over, but there are just a few core things that exist that makes me fearful of the outcome.
Anyways, because I love Broodwar, I do wish all the best for SCII's success.
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BW fan here...
Ever since SC2 dropped, I stopped laddering on BW, iCCup is pretty much dead, and with my entire /f l and /c o pretty much empty all the time, I just stopped wanting to go on iCCup.
However, I want to love SC2 so much, but I just can't bring myself to play more than a few games.
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5/5 good read for an sc2 lurker like me. I definitely like your way of being very critical towards SC2 because of your love of BW and your desire of SC2 becoming as major. I've always looked up the Starcraft franchise as something incredibly grand once I realized people still played after so many years. With this sequel, I agree it would be very sad if SC2 doesn't last a good ten years.
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United States7481 Posts
On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
I came in to post something almost exactly along these lines. I love both BW and sc2, and I hope both the scenes thrive. It really pisses me off to see sc2 people saying BW should just go away and give up, but it also pisses me off to see BW people saying sc2 is a joke, it has no value as an e-sport, and it should die. Both sides need to be more respectful.
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I kind of disagree with your minirant about how micro is no longer important in this game. In fact I think due to the new hard counter system managing battles is even more important than it was in broodwar. That said, I really really hope broodwar lives on. SC2 just isn't as fun to watch. All else aside that's the most important aspect of broodwar the majesty in the games is unparalleled by any esport game. If you can enchant your audience you can live for ever
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On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
HAHAHA. Nice catch.
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On November 16 2010 13:47 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me... HAHAHA. Nice catch.
they raped our race so much
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Seriously. I'm thinking of switching to T. It's not fun playing Z anymore ):
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As with any video game, the first year it's out everybody loves it, and after that only the true fans stick around. So those people who don't have anything nice to contribute will move on, and those dedicated to the game will stay. Overall the discussions will improve over time.
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PH, you're my hero. You basically just summed up all of the thoughts I had running around my head today.
On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
The biggest issue I have with this is not the games but TeamLiquid. TL used to be this premier Broodwar site, filled with crazy/awesome people and insights. I'm not saying TL isn't that anymore but we integrated Starcraft 2 into our whole system. TL is no longer Broodwar progaming news, its Starcraft progaming news. Is SC2 worthy of suddenly becoming this giant section of TL? Sc2 is a great game, but so is Warcraft 3, LoL, Diablo, CS, etc. That's why we have the sports and games section. I can't help but feel that sc2 was instantly expected to be accepted just because it has the word "starcraft" in it.
Because TL accepted sc2 as an equal to broodwar, over any other game, I feel like they have to be compared.
On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 11:44 Ideas wrote:
honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW. Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
Despite being a zerg player at heart, I could not bear to play zerg in sc2. Going from muta micro and lurker ling surrounds to a-moving various different units in ball formations was too heartbreaking. Also, lings are not crickets!
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On November 16 2010 13:57 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 13:47 PH wrote:On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me... HAHAHA. Nice catch. they raped our race so much
Yeah zerg probably resembles it's BW counterpart the least out of the 3 in SC2. So much so that I'll rage about it when offracing(I don't play zerg in SC2 or BW) >_>.
Man, I don't really hate SC2. I like it as a game, but what I really hate is all this KeSPa-Blizzard crap that's going on. If BW dies, I probably won't be able to enjoy SC2 that much, particularly because I like BW so much, and I really feel like what's going on right now is probably not going to turn out the best. So it's really hard not to hate SC2, even now, cause it kinda embodies what Blizzard is at the moment. SC2 shouldn't replace BW, but when Blizzard is trying to make it such, (They claim they aren't, but their actions say otherwise...) of course you're gonna draw comparisons between the two games.
Although, I can't really say I like KeSPA either, both sides are being incredibly greedy and it's probably going to go to the worst possible outcome. I feel like both sides say one thing but have their actions completely contradict it....
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EPT
