EPTSC2 fanboys vs BW camp. - Page 2
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too. I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors. SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition. If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote: I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience. BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too. I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors. SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition. If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership. Wow. First time I've heard someone put it that way. That's interesting, because I never thought that the SC2 community would quickly switch to the next big game. It seems that the current pool of SC2 players are up and ready to tackle competitive SC2 for a decently long period of time...at least from what I've seen posted in blogs and SC2 sites. And I can agree on your view of comparing the games. The way I saw it was that comparison of the games helped you form your own subjective opinion of the game. Whether you wrongly tried to impart that opinion onto others is out of my control. But I can see what you mean that beyond forming your own opinion, trying to compare the two is pretty useless. Good post. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote: stuff CS 1.6 vs CS 5.2? Melee vs Brawl? The scenes should survive on their own merit; that doesn't mean they do. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
The SC2 general forum is absolutely terrible. There are so many idiot posters there. If there's some bad thread proposing some change to make the game even easier to play and thus make it a more "strategic" and "thinking" game, then it turns into a 20 page shitfest between the SC2 fanboys who've never played BW, and the BW fans like myself who can't help but speak out against such shortsightedness. Somehow, it even feels like the innocent threads with interviews or news articles in them end up with small little shitfests as well. It's ridiculous. I don't think this is fair. If you look at what prominent members of the community have been promoting these ideas (of an intellectual and strategic game,) it's the opposite of what you're saying. Has TLO ever said that SC2 is more intellectual than SC1? nope. HuK nope, Demuslim? nope. MadFrog? nope. it has been incontrol, IdrA, and Artosis, the veterans of the BW community. Now, the fact that they may be just saying this to promote the scene they're going to be a part of, or that they may be genuinely deceived is a separate manner, but when you say that there's a bunch of players (some of which may have never played BW in the first place like you mentioned) saying that SC2 is more of a thinking game than BW, you have to see where it's coming from, because this stuff just gets regurgitated when the community leaders make these statements. If IdrA came out and said that he thought the game was not only incredibly simple mechanically but also much inferior to BW strategically, then 99% of this talk would never exist in SC2 general forums in the first place. | ||
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yoplate
United States332 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:38 Crunchums wrote: CS 1.6 vs CS 5.2? Melee vs Brawl? The scenes should survive on their own merit; that doesn't mean they do. I'm not defining merit as an individuals subjective opinion of what game is more skillful or fun... I'm defining merit as what game draws in more viewers without legal interference. In other words, it doesn't matter that people think SC2 is a more strategic favouring game that rewards smart players more... It matters that people want to watch it. Lots of people still want to watch BroodWar, therefore there's no good reason for it to die. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:45 Kiarip wrote: I don't think this is fair. If you look at what prominent members of the community have been promoting these ideas (of an intellectual and strategic game,) it's the opposite of what you're saying. Has TLO ever said that SC2 is more intellectual than SC1? nope. HuK nope, Demuslim? nope. MadFrog? nope. it has been incontrol, IdrA, and Artosis, the veterans of the BW community. Now, the fact that they may be just saying this to promote the scene they're going to be a part of, or that they may be genuinely deceived is a separate manner, but when you say that there's a bunch of players (some of which may have never played BW in the first place like you mentioned) saying that SC2 is more of a thinking game than BW, you have to see where it's coming from, because this stuff just gets regurgitated when the community leaders make these statements. If IdrA came out and said that he thought the game was not only incredibly simple mechanically but also much inferior to BW strategically, then 99% of this talk would never exist in SC2 general forums in the first place. To be fair....PH isn't talking about the high level players. I think it's fair to say that most of the high level players are respectful to both games. I don't really see any problems up top. I think PH is referring to new SC2 players who come and talk about how SC2 is more geared towards actual strategy, creativity, instead of game mechanics. While both sides are at fault, and BW players just need to calm down sometimes, I think the SC2 players who are saying that SC2 is better than BW in terms of strategies, creativities are also at fault and just seeing the short term picture. Because if SC2 players are correct and SC2 matures and becomes a staple game around the world. Strategies/creativity is going to be cut for game mechanics and timings. That's just the way the wind blows. | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote: I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience. BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too. I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors. SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition. If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership. The problem is SC2 is supposed to be the successor to BW, and the two games are similar enough that people can't help but compare them. Right now I watch SC2 as a fun sort of side thing but if I had to compare the games to BW it would be horribly bad. The reason I can enjoy SC2 for what it is and not expect it to fill BW's shoes is because I have BW. There is no need for me to dampen SC2 fans' enthusiasm by telling them how I truly feel. Honestly I don't see a whole lot of SC2 trashing from BW guys in the SC2 forums so I think most people are good about not pooping on someone else's fun. However, if Blizzard does shut down BW then people will either leave the whole scene or turn to SC2 as a substitute. Without BW we will expect SC2 to deliver in the same way that BW has. I believe that SC2 (given Blizzard's general attitude) will never have some of the elements that made BW so amazing. This will piss people off. They won't be able to stop themselves from feeling that SC2 is inferior rather than just enjoying it as another very fun (but not as deep) game in its own right. Basically, I believe that if Blizzard kills BW then the polarization and gap between communities will be unbridgeable, and a lot of people will leave the scene forever. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3128 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:21 Crunchums wrote: Do you think SC2 will end up fulfilling the task you have set out for it? I don't know, to be honest. I don't understand SC2's core gameplay well enough to be able to make a guess at that. I can only say I hope it does. On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote: I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience. BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too. I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors. SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition. If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership. A lot of people said similar things for a while. However, I disagree. SC2 already has very low system requirements for a recently released game. Blizzard obviously intended for it to be very accessible. I remember when I first got BW when I was like...twelve, my father and I had to go through the computer for hours to free up enough hard drive space to meet the 600MB requirements. Even then, I had tons of problems running the game on a computer my dad had spent two grand only a year or so prior. I don't think BW will survive for more than a few years with SC2 out. It was already starting to dwindle, and with KeSPA's utter retardation, it was getting more and more difficult to secure sponsors each season for the starleagues. The BW scene was revitalized in a big way with the announcement of SC2, but now that SC2 is out, every impression I'm getting is that pro BW will die at the hands of SC2 eventually. It is indeed my own subjective viewpoint and I shared it as such. Again, the reader was warned at the start that it was a rant, and it was posted in the blogs. Personally, I enjoy SC2. I think it's fun enough, and I think that's very much due to the many great commentators out there. With Day[9], Tasteless and Artosis, as well as my community favorites like xHydrax and Husky, games are much more exciting to watch than they would be otherwise. Let me completely honest and frank at this point and say that I hope that everything plays out as you've said. That would be great if BW could survive alongside SC2, and each on their own. On November 16 2010 09:45 Kiarip wrote: I don't think this is fair. If you look at what prominent members of the community have been promoting these ideas (of an intellectual and strategic game,) it's the opposite of what you're saying. Has TLO ever said that SC2 is more intellectual than SC1? nope. HuK nope, Demuslim? nope. MadFrog? nope. it has been incontrol, IdrA, and Artosis, the veterans of the BW community. Now, the fact that they may be just saying this to promote the scene they're going to be a part of, or that they may be genuinely deceived is a separate manner, but when you say that there's a bunch of players (some of which may have never played BW in the first place like you mentioned) saying that SC2 is more of a thinking game than BW, you have to see where it's coming from, because this stuff just gets regurgitated when the community leaders make these statements. If IdrA came out and said that he thought the game was not only incredibly simple mechanically but also much inferior to BW strategically, then 99% of this talk would never exist in SC2 general forums in the first place. To be honest, I don't really pay attention to what those guys have been saying aside from the occasional interview. However, I do see your point and have seen evidence of it. In response, I think such words must be understood in the proper context. SC2 is, indeed, more a thinking-oriented game than BW is. But It does not necessarily follow that it has more strategic depth than BW does. Who knows, maybe SC2 will end up requiring more strategic thinking overall than BW. That remains to be seen. The fact of the matter is, though, that with SC2's lower mechanical requirements, you have a lot more time to think about what you're going to be doing. That fundamentally makes SC2 a more "thinking" game than BW. Do you understand my meaning? This is just my take on it, though. Perhaps iNc, idra and artosis really have abandoned BW in saying such things, but I hope not. I don't think I've met anyone who loved BW more than Artosis. That guy was as passionate as it got about the game. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote: If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition. Ok, I'm going to single this out and make a separate reply directly to it because you're the second person to take that statement the wrong way. It was a joke. As I said in an earlier reply, it was a whimsical statement. That said, it was still a sentiment shared by many upon SC2's announcement, even if just as a fantasy pipe dream. | ||
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Thurokiir
United States779 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote: BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. Thats not true. You can make a comp that can run sc2 np for >300 or if you're feeling spendy a comp that can run it on all max for 400. Please do research. Edit: If I have a post here might as well throw in to the rest. These two games represent two different eras. As a result we should be treating them differently. These games are both harder or easier depending on what you're looking at and above all are still different games. Saying one is harder or easier does what? Really. What does it do? All a thread will devolve to is people throwing shit at each other over the aisle with no regard to the consequence of said shit throwing. When you post, you should be thinking "what does this do?". Why tell someone the game that they dedicated the last decade to enjoying is a cardboard cut out 2d facsimile of a real game with enough broken mechanics to put an auto dealership in the black. Or why tell someone that the game that has sparked enough zealotry to join an entirely new community, care enough to even speak about it that their game has no basis in real RTS gaming and has the APM requirement of a dead hippo. When there's blatant Q_Qing over these games being compared treat it with apathy and callousness not rage and assault. Because really what happens if all sc1 people leave? The core, the meaning the focus of this community is gone. What happens if all the sc2 people leave? The community is faced with a slow stagnant death that yes, BW will endure but to what end? Sc1 streams have over 3000 views for ro32 quals now. Sc2 coming into this genre has been a GOOD thing. More people want to learn about the game that started it all. That made us all care. Blatant elitism and assaulting to sc2 newbies makes them do what? Hate your game? Never want to play it? Never want to speak to you? When was that a part of the Team Liquid experience? And brash irresponsible comments that net nothing towards sc1 veterans do what? Make them not want to come back to their home? That makes them feel unwelcome in a place they've found happyness and solace in an amazing community? Frankly though more often than not when I'm watching streams it is the BW crowd that incites and flames sc2 fans almost with out exception more than sc2 fans. Everyone I know that plays sc2 knows the history much less the work put into BW by the pros is simply mind boggling. I guess what I'm trying to say is that; Why fight? To what end do you hope to achieve in doing so? And if you do know what you're trying to achieve... Do you know the consequences. | ||
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Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On November 16 2010 08:35 n00bination wrote: Give it time. SCII is still a very young game. People haven't found out the best way to utilize all units yet. Remember, at this stage in the game, SCI was pretty much one-base all-ins too. Hopefully as time wears on, we will see some sort of play emerge that is reminiscent of the great BW moments. I really hate this kind of argument, because it just completely ignores the vast difference in attitudes and the environment that each game was brought up in. You think a few guys playing Brood War for ramen back then, with a couple sparse tournaments, is anything comparable to what the fledgling SC2 community already has? Massive tournaments, money thrown at it by the handfuls, organized teams already starting up months after release? The fact is, the SC2 scene should develop much faster than the Brood War one. I am not saying that "oh SC2 has been out for nearly half a year, strategies should be as developed as BW now", but arguments like "give SC2 ten years and we'll see" are similarly incoherent. If anything, the reason it's been developing slowly is Blizzard putting out shitty maps that encourage that kind of play -_- | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
On November 16 2010 10:15 Thurokiir wrote: Thats not true. You can make a comp that can run sc2 np for >300 or if you're feeling spendy a comp that can run it on all max for 400. Please do research. Sorry, my research consisted of having two pretty good computers that cannot run SC2. If I have to spend 450 dollars to play SC2, that's not exactly pocket change you.. silly, silly man. BroodWar costs like 10 bucks. I was able to try SC2 on my brother's machine since he has like 9 gigs of RAM, but that's not a typical set up, and guess what, even if you can barely run SC2 on a brand new mid-range computer, SC2 looks really awful on low settings and is pretty much unplayable with cursor lag. BroodWar needs like 32 mb of RAM to function. SC2 needs 1.5 gigs of ram to barely function. If I'm someone (ie 90% of people/anyone who isn't playing the latest releases) who hasn't bought a new computer in a few years, which game can I run? I remember when I first got BW when I was like...twelve, my father and I had to go through the computer for hours to free up enough hard drive space to meet the 600MB requirements. Even then, I had tons of problems running the game on a computer my dad had spent two grand only a year or so prior. I had like four computers of varying ages when SC first came out, and all of them were able to run the game fine... But even if that were true, it doesn't change the fact that SC has become accessible to everyone, and has been for the majority of its life as an eSport. Maybe in 5 years SC2 will be incredibly accessible, but I don't think SC2 will even live that long. You gotta remember a large part of the fanbase is flighty... SC2 is the new big thing... SC1 has survived thru many new big things, but retained a large audience... WC3 hasn't, and SC2 probably won't either. I can say this because SC2 isn't the first thing to ever challenge BW. This community has been through so many of these pseudo replacements it's not even funny. The only difference is that Blizzard is trying really hard to make SC2 work... There's no real precedent for anyone doing this, so all we can do is wait and see... But there is a number of precedents for BroodWar living on. Really, I wanna ask this: What does SC2 have in common with SC1 that other RTS's don't have in common? Sure, there's the trademark minerals and gas, but there are iterations of this in many games. Sure, there's the players, but WC3 also took a lot of SC1 players and it is not doing so hot after the test of time. Right now SC2 is seriously just another RTS. It hasn't proven anything. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On November 16 2010 10:15 Thurokiir wrote: Thats not true. You can make a comp that can run sc2 np for >300 or if you're feeling spendy a comp that can run it on all max for 400. Please do research. Honestly, playing on a system that cheap would not be a pleasurable experience. Also just because 300-400$ may be chump change people in the States/Canada, that is not the case about many people in other places or a younger age group. Plus 300-400$ is a pretty hefty investment for a video game, when you can probably pick up any computer this day and age and run BW. Not to mention to play SC2 multiplayer you also need a good internet connection, whereas you can play BW with friends over lan. I mean shit, back when I coached tennis, many people were turned away from it because down the road a decent tennis racquet cost 100-200$, and you needed atleast 2 to play in tournaments. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On November 16 2010 10:34 Seide wrote: Honestly, playing on a system that cheap would not be a pleasurable experience. Also just because 300-400$ may be chump change people in the States/Canada, that is not the case about many people in other places or a younger age group. Plus 300-400$ is a pretty hefty investment for a video game, when you can probably pick up any computer this day and age and run BW. Not to mention to play SC2 multiplayer you also need a good internet connection, whereas you can play BW with friends over lan. I mean shit, back when I coached tennis, many people were turned away from it because a decent tennis racquet cost 100-200$, and you needed atleast 2 to play in tournaments. Not trying to derail the thread....but oh my God. Don't remind me of the hefty price that tennis brings to your life. Damn good analogy right there for SC2. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
And a lot of the newer SC2 blood that never played brood war, are in fact idiots. They say the most inane things without having the perspective to know better. But hardcore brood war players are no less at fault. A lot of times they're making the same stupid posts and arguments, such as you did, saying that SC2's micro is not as important or what not, etc. I think both sides are idiots tbh lol. The best side to be on is loving both games  i'm one of those people that absolutely loves brood war, and SC2, and can respect both games for what they are, and not go apeshit over SC2 taking over the Brood War scene. I'm sure there are a ton more that have similar respects for both games...but with all the forum bs from the SC2 vs SC1 stuff i'm sure they're lurking and not bothering posting lol.Both "camps" are fucking stupid for being in camps in the first place. | ||
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Murderotica
Vatican City State2594 Posts
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