EDIT: The title should have been "Teamliquid is barely recognizable now."; that would have sounded better, hehe. Cheer up, folks! =3
My heart cannot take it anymore.
First, there was the BW matchfixing scandal. Then, this Werra sexual harrassment thing in SC2. And now an upcoming lawsuit against MBC by Blizzard.
I have been visiting Teamliquid for almost 2 years now (or was it almost 3, I cannot remember, hehe), only becoming a member recently. Ever since SC2 came out, our fanbase has become so polarized lately. I was at first happy that Teamliquid would have the opportunity to grow and accommodate all the new SC2 fans. And that we would all go along together peacefully.
But now, all I see are threads full of hateful posts, slandering and spite between the BW and SC2 camps. Those are quickly overwhelmed by our own banlings, but still they come back.
What I want to say is, if Blizzard succeeds in an injunction to stop MBC (and possibly OGN) from broadcasting BW, then there may be no more reason for me to visit I may have to take a hiatus from visiting Teamliquid, at least for an indefinite time. Because if broadcasting stops, progamer teams in BW will have their livelihood stripped from them and... you know what happens next.
So before that ever happens,
- Thank you, NeverGG, for all the awesome photos covering the Korean BW proscene in the past. (I never knew you were actually a girl!)
- Thank you, boesthius, Roffles, konadora, Grobyc and others for your endless BW streams. (Bacon, anyone?!)
- Thank you, Milkis, motbob (?), Waxangel, mrmin (I think), and others for all the awesome translations. (Helping us to appreciate the Korean language much more)
- Thank you, heyoka, Waxangel, snowdrift, alffla and others for all the amazing TL write-ups about BW. (On Waxen Wings, *sob*)
- Thank you, mrmin, Roffles and others for Nalra's Old Boy and Hyungjoon's "... to be a progamer" (OH MY, I FORGOT THE TITLE)
- Thank you, all you rabid BW fans, for the awesome LR threads and crazy fanboyism. (Yay!)
- Thank you, Plexa, for your Power Rank. (However, inaccurate it can be =P)
And thank you, everyone else, including moderators, for making Teamliquid such a fun place to surf through.
Lol, if you think teamliquid is so unrecognizable now and you've only been here for 2 years, then you can imagine how some of us older guys feel
And I don't know what all the hub-ub is about concerning bw and sc2 people not being able to get along... mostly because most of the sc2 players worth watching and playing with were bw players themselves like 6 months ago. There is no reason why we can't all learn from each other and be respectful. Starcraft has always had immatures and fanatics. I think the fact that SC2 does as well only shows the similarity between the two games.
All things will pass in time, its a transitional period, it's always going to be painful... as they say in Korea in English (because its one of those English phrases everyone knows)
Even though I havent been here a long time, I feel like I belong to this site. But if BW dies because of this lawsuit, Im afraid TL for me will die with it. Maybe its just time to grow up and stop already with all the computer games?
if Blizzard succeeds in an injunction to stop MBC (and possibly OGN) from broadcasting BW, then there may be no more reason for me to visit Teamliquid
same here
Me too Kind of depressing to think about. Let's hope we still have a reason to come to TL in the coming years.
And while I'm posting, I also want to thank everyone who's made TL great. Thank you! (can never thank you guys enough)
me too, no more articles about proleague (man i love those recaps) no more LR threads no more interviews no more epic games to talk about and no more bw...and no more Lee-Young-Ho and KT Rolster and teams! :'( man it makes me depressed...(if it WOULD happen)
I agree with the OP to some extend. Many posts in SC2 section are very un-teamliquidish -> new word, yeah! I switched to SC2 but like to follow BW anyways so I like both games a lot, but being used to the (for example) BW Live report threads, it kills me to follow a SC2 LR thread. People there complain about other reporting live about the game!!!!! hello?????!!!!!! If you try to explain that a LR thrad is there to LR for people who cannot watch the games they call you a retarrded noob because they think it is your fault that you cannot watch the games live. This is just an example. Mods doing a great job, warning/banning people in LR threads but I really dont want to be a mod on TL nowadays. Each LR thread about GSL forces so many bans... its unbelieveable, really!
Otherwise, I gues/hope/wish/pray, that this is just because of the flood of new people and that bad posters get less when they lose interest in TL/SC2 or they get banned so often that they dont want to be part of TL anymore.
Besides BW and SC2, I think its worth it to visit TL anyways. The general forum often brings great threads and many blogs are fun to read. SC2 is getting better with every BW player switching. The game is slowly evolving from WC3 like 1base paly to a macro game. If new maps are going to be a bit bigger, this will be the case even more. Actually, laddering in SC2 is a lot of fun, once you get used to the game. (I was bashing SC2 in every aspect before I played it for the first time and it took me a long time to actually like the game :p ). You just have to say yourself that it is NOT BW with new graphics. Its a new game and its getting better and better... I am hoping that with SC2 getting better, the community will grow, too.
yea man i sometimes i think back and its like wow i've spent nearly 6 years on this site already lol. logging in everyday excited as a puppy reading about brood war and going crazy over all the korean progamers and strats and vods adn everything.
its been a shitty year with the instability of the bw scene :\
But now, all I see are threads full of hateful posts, slandering and spite between the BW and SC2 camps. Those are quickly overwhelmed by our own banlings, but still they come back.
The only people I see starting flame wars between the SC2 and BW community are the people in the BW community flaming the SC2 community...
On October 25 2010 00:29 alffla wrote: yea man i sometimes i think back and its like wow i've spent nearly 6 years on this site already lol. logging in everyday excited as a puppy reading about brood war and going crazy over all the korean progamers and strats and vods adn everything.
its been a shitty year with the instability of the bw scene :\
AH, I forgot to add you to the writers section of my blog too! Editing now. =P
But now, all I see are threads full of hateful posts, slandering and spite between the BW and SC2 camps. Those are quickly overwhelmed by our own banlings, but still they come back.
The only people I see starting flame wars between the SC2 and BW community are the people in the BW community flaming the SC2 community...
i'm not posting this to start another flame war, but i just want to point out that both sides have equal share and responsibility in the flame wars.
scenario 1: sc2 fans going into bw-related threads/blogs and saying "lol this game should die already"
scenario 2: bw fans: "fuck blizzard/gretech/sc2, i aint playing that shit, game sucks, should never have existed"
On October 25 2010 00:45 Badjas wrote: Thanking people, while a nice gesture, with the context given is reaaaally morbid to me. TL won't go away. Fight the divide.
Don't worry, I believe in Teamliquid, that it will stay on forever. I wanted to say thanks for the first time, that is all. =)
I know how you feel, I totally agree, been here for more than three years and I really miss the "old" TL.net and Starcraft. When I used to go on here I would feel like a part of the community (even tho I am probably an unknown to most people). Nowdays I don't really visit TL.net alot, I just don't have the community feeling anymore.
I want to thank disciple for his epic art and later his revival of iconic historical events in TL. JWD for his sick blogs and I believe his contribution to the Power Rank at one point. And especially the Mods and Admins for being troopers, laying down the law, and spearheading tons of great new features. When I first started lurking, Chill wasn't modding the BW strat forum, there was no TLPD, no TSL, no Blogs, no Final Edits, no stream links, no Liquipedia... it's amazing how much TL has grown since then.
EDIT: I agree that in the past I felt a greater sense of community and camaraderie everywhere. There was some sort of tacit, mutual understanding that we were all hardcore fans of the most badass game in the world. When we lauded other games it was because they were hard as fuck, and/or similarly old school. When a foreigner went to Korea, or beat a Korean, it was a big fucking deal, not something to be expected, and to be disappointed otherwise. When live report threads held discussion of the games, the players, the teams, not complaints about organization, production or specious reasons to spawn 5 other threads.
I'd like to thank Shauni for still streaming BW even though he always trolls the Anime thread telling people they have no taste.
Imo the site should just be split in two sections entirely, because this isn't really working out. It's very frustrating as a starcraft player having not only to deal with bad news every time I read the bw forums but also getting a bunch of sc2 players telling me bw dying is only due by now.
Well, as someone who has been around this site since 2003 I can tell you that I pretty much got out of the SC:BW about 2years ago and have had no interest at all in SC2, but I still find myself here everyday checking the forums. The site has so much more to offer than just SC/SC2. Though, that is the biggest part of it.
On October 25 2010 01:39 tonight wrote: Well, as someone who has been around this site since 2003 I can tell you that I pretty much got out of the SC:BW about 2years ago and have had no interest at all in SC2, but I still find myself here everyday checking the forums. The site has so much more to offer than just SC/SC2. Though, that is the biggest part of it.
Yes, you are right, Teamliquid is also an awesome community for news headlines and interesting topics not in any way related to the SC universe. That is why I put in "at least for an indefinite time" =P.
Hehe, I guess it was a mistake on my part. I cannot remember all the names as possible anyway, and I must have mixed yours up. But YES, your name is so familiar to me! I just cannot put it right. =)
I definitely agree. There's always someone who hops into the Gretech/etc negotiation threads and starts telling everyone how BW should just die etc etc.
Another thing that drives me nuts is the "wall" between diamond players and non-diamond players in the SC2 section. It feels like regardless if the bronze/silver leaguers are asking for some solid advice or just have some good ideas, they're instantly ostracized/criticized because of the fact that they aren't 1700+ diamond.
edit: Reminds me of the WoW PVP forums where if anyone with an arena team lower then like 1800 says anything, the entire thread dissolves into "LOL NICE ARENA TEAM" x 10. =/
Juggling between quality and quantity is a hard task indeed and very few can be successful in both.
It will be even harder to maintain quality of forums if BW survives all this bullshit it's in and all leagues continue, because the difference of average BW and average SC2 player is getting so huge. If this happens, TL will indeed feel like a different place (it already does to some). The biggest problem is usual overprotective attitude of BW players "we were here first" and overly disrespectful attitude of SC2 players "i don't care about anything, just give me some IdrA rage to watch".
Anyways, it will be interesting to see how TL looks like in a year.
Well I'm sorry I'm probably contributing to the sc1 vs sc2 thing but uninformed sc2 noobs going into BW topics and making completely ridiculous unsubstantiated statements is really irritating.
As a BW fanatic respectfully waiting for SC2 to show promise, I am curious where TeamLiquid will go. My sense is that the higher-ups are either trying to push SC2 for integrative and monetary purposes, or are unsure of what to do. It's not secret that TL has found a way to generate more funds, which is fine by me, we are provided an excellent service in an anglophone Starcraft community. What bugs me is what feels like BW being pushed to the fringes of the website, and almost to the point where TL's admins want it to go away.
I doubt this is the case, but I think a letter to the community would be appropriate. I appreciated the post when the website was redesigned, but a post regarding the direction of the website would be much-welcomed. Just because there's a bunch of money in SC2 at the moment does not mean we as community members should care. I've never felt that e-sports will develop into some huge thing, so maybe I'm missing the enthusiasm that the admins feel, but the supposed freshness and vitality of SC2 appears stale and forced. I say this as a BW fan since 2005, so I did not experience BW's ascendancy, so potentially this initial enthusiasm will be tempered and modified as the scene becomes clearer.
I think the [SFW] Random pics that make you laugh thread is enough reason to stay on TL, heheheh. Although I must say, the [NSFW] one was much more fun before it got shut down...
On October 25 2010 01:39 tonight wrote: Well, as someone who has been around this site since 2003 I can tell you that I pretty much got out of the SC:BW about 2years ago and have had no interest at all in SC2, but I still find myself here everyday checking the forums. The site has so much more to offer than just SC/SC2. Though, that is the biggest part of it.
Amen. General and Blogs have really been the only places I post. I find really no interest in reading SC2 strategy posts...
And I'm not well versed enough on the Korean proscene to comment on Proleague and stuff like that.
Edit: Also. No. It's not unrecognizable. Things aren't as bad as you think they are. Sure there's flaming, but that's an inevitable reality when two forces clash together. Let it be, because it's gonna get better.
Well for the time i've been here everything has pretty much been the same... there's alot of shit and alot of awesome. Maybe a little more of the former nowadays but still just as much awesome.
On October 25 2010 01:39 tonight wrote: Well, as someone who has been around this site since 2003 I can tell you that I pretty much got out of the SC:BW about 2years ago and have had no interest at all in SC2, but I still find myself here everyday checking the forums. The site has so much more to offer than just SC/SC2. Though, that is the biggest part of it.
Yeah I've been a huge fan of the General and Blogs around here, some good reads
It does upset me greatly the the division between Sc2 and BW players at times, I think they're both fantastic games and I truly do believe that both games can co-exist together, although for some people this is an idea they loathe.
The Sc2 forums as of late have been so bitterly disappointing however, even the "IM IN DIAMOND LOOK EVERYONE" threads have been returning.......
On October 25 2010 02:00 Graham wrote: I definitely agree. There's always someone who hops into the Gretech/etc negotiation threads and starts telling everyone how BW should just die etc etc.
Another thing that drives me nuts is the "wall" between diamond players and non-diamond players in the SC2 section. It feels like regardless if the bronze/silver leaguers are asking for some solid advice or just have some good ideas, they're instantly ostracized/criticized because of the fact that they aren't 1700+ diamond.
edit: Reminds me of the WoW PVP forums where if anyone with an arena team lower then like 1800 says anything, the entire thread dissolves into "LOL NICE ARENA TEAM" x 10. =/
I couldn't agree more. With all these "how to manage rage?" threads and such it seems to me that a lot of SC2 players have this illusion that they are or should be entitled to being "good". That strikes me as a really childish, egoistic behavior that doesn't really belong in competition. Anyone who's an amateur at anything remotely difficult like Go, photography, or triathlons always knows that he's, in some respects, just plain bad and in need of improvement. Even the best of the best like Flash always mention how they need more practice.
And then these silly posters attach their inflated egos to some sort of superiority complex. It makes absolutely no sense; how is comparing oneself to a demonstrably inferior player in any way useful to improving your own results? Did Edmund Hillary gloat about his ascent to the highest peak in New Zealand and tell other mountain climbers to stfu when planning his expedition to Mt. Everest?
I remember the BW community was always helpful in some way or another even to D level players posting replays for help, as long as they presented well written OPs and inquiries. Then again, the BW strat forum was low population, didn't move quickly, and was not inundated by random theorycrafting threads.
To be honest - the SC2 "fans" invading BW threads are easy (for me) to ignore.
The real problem now is that relatively rare good posts are drowned out by the mounds of crap spewed by people who are not informed about the topic of discussion (whatever it is) and don't try to even become slightly informed before posting. I hardly read general nowadays, when it used to be one of my favorite sections. Reading TL truly does make you less intelligent now, I'm really trying to ween myself off this site, or at least visit far less often (but not before I post the project I've been working on).
I went through the thread and found this hilarious post
On April 01 2009 08:41 infinity21 wrote: There's no class in fooling these hapless people who trust in everything they read on the internet. When you look back a year later, people will never go, "oh yeah, do you remember when motbob completely had us fooled for a whole day? that was hilarious". In a week, this thread will disappear into the depths of the TL database, never to be brought up again. You will never be known as 'that guy' who made the epic April Fools thread. I'm sorry I had to say it, but it's the truth.
- Thank you, Plexa, for your Power Rank. (However, inaccurate it can be =P)
Hahaha and Thank You good sir for reminding me to check this month's Power Rank("However, inaccurate it can be" xD) I want to thank DrH for his great girl pic blogs and The Great Penguin for his great pics. I also want to thank the TL.net staff for being so good to us and the great casters (HD,Husky, the Plott brothers and their Mother, along with many others) as well as the people the OP has already thanked and Chill and Kennigit and any other staff members that helped in the TL.net sponsored SC2 Beta Key contests. May TL.net be thanked! Also thank you for this great music that I still listen to ,
On October 25 2010 00:10 MightyAtom wrote: All things will pass in time, its a transitional period, it's always going to be painful... as they say in Korea in English (because its one of those English phrases everyone knows)
Cheer up!
Indeed. Already transitioned fully to SC2 for CSL. Oh how sad...poor BW.
On October 25 2010 01:39 tonight wrote: Well, as someone who has been around this site since 2003 I can tell you that I pretty much got out of the SC:BW about 2years ago and have had no interest at all in SC2, but I still find myself here everyday checking the forums. The site has so much more to offer than just SC/SC2. Though, that is the biggest part of it.
Amen. General and Blogs have really been the only places I post. I find really no interest in reading SC2 strategy posts...
And I'm not well versed enough on the Korean proscene to comment on Proleague and stuff like that.
Edit: Also. No. It's not unrecognizable. Things aren't as bad as you think they are. Sure there's flaming, but that's an inevitable reality when two forces clash together. Let it be, because it's gonna get better.
Hehe, I should have changed my blog title to "Teamliquid is barely recognizable now."; that would have sounded better! My blog post must have sounded a bit morbid with the current title in context. =P I believe in Teamliquid.
I miss the times during the TSL where you could look to the sidebar and see [BW] streams galore. Now when I look over I'm like "wtf is that" and I close the browser.
On October 25 2010 10:44 Masamune wrote: It really is
I miss the times during the TSL where you could look to the sidebar and see [BW] streams galore. Now when I look over I'm like "wtf is that" and I close the browser.
Same here, now all i watch is Shauni, Remag and PL when they are on. I Just wish for more Terran streams or even more BW streams overall.
On October 25 2010 02:00 Graham wrote: I definitely agree. There's always someone who hops into the Gretech/etc negotiation threads and starts telling everyone how BW should just die etc etc.
Another thing that drives me nuts is the "wall" between diamond players and non-diamond players in the SC2 section. It feels like regardless if the bronze/silver leaguers are asking for some solid advice or just have some good ideas, they're instantly ostracized/criticized because of the fact that they aren't 1700+ diamond.
edit: Reminds me of the WoW PVP forums where if anyone with an arena team lower then like 1800 says anything, the entire thread dissolves into "LOL NICE ARENA TEAM" x 10. =/
I couldn't agree more. With all these "how to manage rage?" threads and such it seems to me that a lot of SC2 players have this illusion that they are or should be entitled to being "good". That strikes me as a really childish, egoistic behavior that doesn't really belong in competition. Anyone who's an amateur at anything remotely difficult like Go, photography, or triathlons always knows that he's, in some respects, just plain bad and in need of improvement. Even the best of the best like Flash always mention how they need more practice.
And then these silly posters attach their inflated egos to some sort of superiority complex. It makes absolutely no sense; how is comparing oneself to a demonstrably inferior player in any way useful to improving your own results? Did Edmund Hillary gloat about his ascent to the highest peak in New Zealand and tell other mountain climbers to stfu when planning his expedition to Mt. Everest?
I remember the BW community was always helpful in some way or another even to D level players posting replays for help, as long as they presented well written OPs and inquiries. Then again, the BW strat forum was low population, didn't move quickly, and was not inundated by random theorycrafting threads.
While I'm a relatively new member of TL, I still haven't gotten SC2 yet (played the Beta), and have mostly been playing Brood War until I do end up buying SC2 later in the year.
Given that, here's perhaps some reflection on deeper issues:
Re: the whole attitude of "silly" egos of diamond players against those below.
It seems to me that no one seeks to question why these individuals feel the need to adopt an attitude of entitlement/egotism in the first place. Like the quoted statement, everyone seems to assume "it's just because they're childish and immature. They're not part of our niche of Broodwar veterans" (after all this entire thread is dedicated to attributing these issues to SC2, maybe because of preconceived notions of most SC2 players as "casual gamers" jumping in). Have you ever stopped to think that this perspective itself may create that very thing you find so annoying? In other words, because SC1 players adopt the attitude that SC2 players are just immature and the equivalent of "D level players" in BW, SC2 players in response have the need to assert their skill, to assert that they are not lowly scrubs. It does not seem unreasonable to think that the elitism of sc1 players towards sc2 players may itself cause sc2 diamond players to be elitist towards under skill levels, much like how scientifically it has been documented that children often bullied feel the need to bully others.
[Edit]: This is of course not to say that all BW players are elitist/condescending towards SC2 ones, but it seems a general trend with as equal a merit as that of the claim that as a general trend, SC2 diamonds are elitist/condescending to non-diamonds.
Meanwhile, this whole idea that Teamliquid is hardly recognizable is more borne out of the assumed idea that Teamliquid = broodwar. All the examples of decline have either been cases of broodwar not being as big, or issues entirely unrelated to SC or SC2 (eg the Werra incident being one related to allegations of allegedly sexual perversity that merely happened to be associated with people involved in starcraft, not being caused or a result of starcraft).
On October 25 2010 04:29 Zona wrote: I hardly read general nowadays, when it used to be one of my favorite sections. Reading TL truly does make you less intelligent now, I'm really trying to ween myself off this site, or at least visit far less often
You'll stil find a gem every now and then. I wouldn't say it makes you less intelligent, but I started visiting in 06, joined finally in 07, and I must admit the quality of posts and reasoning behind them seemed greater at least in comparison. I remembered looking at TL as the site where all intelligent people gathered, and it feels like in the past year it's been slowly drifting away from that. I guess our banlings have that much work now? I still love TL though. The users that have been here since the beginning are growing up and moving on to bigger things; I guess it'll be our responsibility to help improve the quality on the forums as we'll become the new veterans...
But now, all I see are threads full of hateful posts, slandering and spite between the BW and SC2 camps. Those are quickly overwhelmed by our own banlings, but still they come back.
The only people I see starting flame wars between the SC2 and BW community are the people in the BW community flaming the SC2 community...
i'm not posting this to start another flame war, but i just want to point out that both sides have equal share and responsibility in the flame wars.
scenario 1: sc2 fans going into bw-related threads/blogs and saying "lol this game should die already"
scenario 2: bw fans: "fuck blizzard/gretech/sc2, i aint playing that shit, game sucks, should never have existed"
peace yo
What BW threads? At least, the strategy forum has week old posts from players asking what went wrong when their macro/build order needs work.
---
And the main problems that the original poster refers to have nothing to do with teamliquid, but with starcraft. So shouldn't it be, professional brood wars is unrecognizable now?
I find it helps if I minimize the SC2 menus except the tourneys.
i only use tl for the general section, blogs, and drama, in that order this is because there are a lot of intelligent people on these forums compared to others, and watching pro games isn't fun for me anymore
I miss my trolling back in the day, but now if I ever think of trolling I always say to myself holy shit I'm already contributing and I don't wanna get banned.
Anyone who posts in SC2 threads should be restricted from posting in other forums. Yeah it wouldn't work + Show Spoiler +
(but if there were a button to do so you'd be pushing it already)
Maybe it's just me but I feel like something is missing. I don't really believe in e-rep, and I've never ever cared about someone's post count on an internet forum. However, lately when I read a particularly trollish post, I find my glance flickering over to the post count, to feel some sort of inexplicable affirmation when it's inevitably in the low hundreds or less.
I have a mild-mannered aunt who, when cut off dangerously on the road, will risk life and limb to catch a glimpse of the offending driver. Perhaps this is how she feels.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/486/adorablepuppies.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8177/cutebabyh.gif)
![[image loading]](http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/407/cutekittyf.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/2016/teamliquid2.jpg)
