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Playing in Bronze league, and I imagine the higher leagues as well, it's almost guaranteed that for every mid-lategame match you play, you'll have fought at least two cheesers. Not a problem, 6pools and such are legitimate strategies and a successful player needs to be prepared for them.
Bronze players generally aren't prepared. Usually that's a result of a lack of practice, reading, and watching replays. Those that do but still fall to cheese generally lose as a result of confusion. The player sends his build order guide's mandated scout, sees a spawning pool in construction with only six drones mining minerals, and panics. They quickly start their gateway, maybe attempt to wall off their ramp, and hope their chronoboosted zealot comes out in time. It's mostly luck, and half the time the cheese wins.
We informed Bronze players could use a guide on exactly how to deal with cheese in all its forms. A guide that, to be effective, is tailored for those of us without perfect reaction times or powerful micro skills. Bronze players hesitate. We think. We overreact. We need a guide that accounts for those flaws. Maybe that's impossible.
Perhaps a collaborative effort by some experienced Bronze players (oxymoron?) and some better Diamonds could craft a suitable guide, and if one exists I must be more ignorant than I thought. If Bronzers had something we could fall back on, a "panic button" of sorts, maybe more Bronzers on the edge of Silver would move up. Or maybe the cheesers would adapt. It's a tricky process.
 
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I don't know of one centralized guide but there are quite a few random ones for fighting cheeses. I know there was one recently made against 6 pools in zvp that might help.
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A guide might help a little bit, but i think if you just keep playing and learn what you did wrong when they did x so you won't do it again when your in the situation. I think playing a lot of games will overcome the cheese in the long run compared to just reading a guide. The guide might help you deal with it, but if you never have battled against the situation then you can still make mistakes.
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Oh I know there are guides, but theyre usually made with diamond-level micro and macro in mind. Missing o nthe wall placement would mean disaster, for example, and a Bronze player may be spending a few seconds trying to get the wall right. Not to mention, that doesnt work against a reaper rush or other forms of cheese.
The problem I see, is that the Bronze player spends too much time thinking, and reacts too slowly. Having to think about their counter makes cheese that much stronger against him. Therefore my theory, which I guess wasn't explained very well, is that if there's one overall strategy a Bronze player could use that would stop most if not all cheese--assuming all/most cheese involves a very early rush--cheese wouldnt be as effective as it is in Bronze.
It's likely there's not even a theoretical anti-cheese build, but its food for thought at least.
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It wouldn't be possible to have an anti cheese build possible because you react differently to each cheese. I think the best idea would just be rush static defenses for an overarching idea but wouldn't always work.
Add me themiddleone.575 i would love to play you to see if we could come up with anything.
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but if the bronze leaguer learned to defend against cheeses correctly they wouldn't be bronze >_>
a lot of starcraft is just experience. and experience and willingness to adapt is what's key to stopping a cheese. this experience doesn't necessarily come from playing a lot, but could also come from watching a lot of games with cheeses, or reading a lot of battle reports/decent threads about cheeses. and by "decent" i mean not 99% of the sc2 strategy forum.
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vs 6 pool fight in your mineral lines, have your scout travel in the lane between your base and theirs and try to block the lings, if they are on A-move kite them for a little. (you're gonna end up losing the probe, but if you can kite them back towards their own base you gain valuable seconds.)
If you walled, you can still pull a few probes to hold the gap until your zeal comes out, if you simcitied then just drone drill.
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The thing that makes cheese difficult for lower league players is that defending it requires a lot more micro and skill than performing the cheese itself. It is MUCH easier to defend when you know exactly what to do, and can spend your energy and apm into taking the correct steps rather than thinking "omg omg what do I do". If you have to think about how to counter it then you're already one step closer to losing, the response should be automatic and (hopefully) well-practiced.
I agree with OP that a comprehensive guide would be helpful to players, with step by step instructions, something like:
So you scout your Protoss opponent and there is nothing in his base...
1) Don't panic!
2) Cancel probe production
3) etc
4) etc
As for general tips, if you lose to cheese one game then you should go and practice defending it in some custom games. Watch the replay and write down timings like when your scout reaches their base, when their building completes, when their first unit arrives etc. If you know the timings then you can practice by yourself (with the new ingame clock) at how to setup a defense in time, then get your friend to try the cheese on you and see if you can defend it.
I'm not saying that Bronze players are lazy, but I think a lot of them think "oh well, i got cheesed...too bad" and then click search game again without stopping to think about how they can do better against it next time. Honestly, if you get your friend to 6 pool you 10 games in a row then you'll find yourself doing a lot better next time you face someone doing it on the ladder.
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The most important skill is thinking, and reasoning. You need to be able to think clearly, and reason correctly.
Does it make sense that this building placement will block cheese?
Does it make sense that I'm building a Marine against a Reaper?
Bronze Players need to learn how to think correctly before they can advance.
The examples were terrible, but you get the idea. :D
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In bronze league, I would imagine that the best defense vs cheese is just having a solid build. Bronze level players will have shaky cheese builds with late timings and no micro. If you have a solid build order, you would probably have more stuff than the other player.
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A simple way to deal with 6 pool is to attack with all your workers. All of your workers will always take out all the lings without taking significant damage. If you see 6 lings, engage and try to engage if he runs way. If he gets to 8 lings, do NOT attack with your workers and wait until your infantry unit comes out. Then, if he engages, you can engage too, but try not to, and get more infantry out. If your terran, build a bunker as soon as u scout a 6 pool, and repair when the lings come.
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The best defense against cheese is superior micro and scouting.
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The mindset I go into when fighting cheese is to determine how much they sacrificed in order to get their units out so quickly. For example, if I'm fighting a 6 pool, I can tell myself if I can fight this off without losing all but a few workers I will be ahead. That allows me to make decisions like pulling probes or losing a few probes defending a pylon to get out a zealot even when it might seem like losing probes means their cheese is "working"
Similarly, if facing an early push, its not necesarily a bad thing to concede one or two buildings or even a part of your base waiting for your forces to build up if crushing the first push means you will have taken a huge lead. Bronze level players often feel the need to defend every part of their base at all cost and watching higher level players you can often be struck by how long the opponent was in their face before they finally "defended" by breaking the push.
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On October 04 2010 13:22 stealthrider wrote:
We informed Bronze players could use a guide on exactly how to deal with cheese in all its forms. A guide that, to be effective, is tailored for those of us without perfect reaction times or powerful micro skills. Bronze players hesitate. We think. We overreact. We need a guide that accounts for those flaws. Maybe that's impossible.
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a good guide would be, improve and get rid of those flaws. It would be stupid to post a guide that says 'well do this to compensate for the fact you're bad'
no any guide should assume good play, if you can't meet those standards work on it until you can. It doesn't take long if you put your mind to it.
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Cannon rush: Send 3 probes per cannon being built. Continue until your first zealot is out.
7 Rax Reaper:
General Idea - Use small numbers of workers to stall for time until you get units out to deal with the reapers. Requires superior micro and multitasking than opponent, no other way.
Double proxy gates:
Terran: Wall and LOL, if in base you need a bunker by your mineral line to retreat into. Throw down a second barracks relatively quickly.
Protoss: Throw down a second gateway, take probes off gas if you have any on gas. If you can send one zealot at your opponent's base, do it. If you're late, you need cannons.
Zerg: Good luck if you have a really late pool or hatch first, zerglings and later roaches should be able to hold if you have something more reasonable.
6 Pool:
Terran: Complete wall early, pull SCVs to repair wall.
Protoss: Full block with forge, throw up a cannon, get a zealot out to buy a little time
Zerg: If your pool is too late, you'll need good micro with workers - a 13 gas / 13 pool should be fast enough. Throwing up a spine crawler helps.
In general, cheeses are far easier to execute than the counter to said cheeses. That's just how it works. Improving yourself is just as much a requirement to getting better as improving your strategies is
P.S. At 1300 diamond I get cheesed one in every like 5 games. The fact of the matter is that every cheese is a coin flip to some extent - it might work or it might not. I know that my win ratio is higher when I actually play rather than cheese people, where I have little control over who wins.
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United States47024 Posts
The problem with a guide like this is that ultimately, it can't be set in stone. Unless your play is close to optimal, then you're going to be susceptible to cheeses that aren't optimal--meaning that the array of options that a "cheeser" has to use against you is vastly more than what's reasonable for someone higher level to face.
Ultimately, the only real defense against cheese is practice. Practice practice practice practice practice. Ladder until you've seen every possible variation of crappy bronze level cheese that is suboptimal, and then ladder more until you can defeat them all.
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I have a replay of me surviving a dual 9rax/6pool when i went hatch first in a 2v2 (because my ally didnt bother looking for the pool timing until i told him to specifically, and i had already thrown down the hatch by then); we eventually lost because he didnt defend the reaper transition in his main properly, but the early rush more or less was foiled; I'll upload that and edit this post or quote myself so you can maybe get some ideas - I'm a diamond player, but my friend is silver and the opponents we played were gold/plat or something, so it should be fairly accurate for cheesers you might come across.
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Defending cheese is just a stepping stone to improve your skill level.
Like you said, most bronze players (myself included in the early stages of beta when I was copper) overreacted and didn't knew much how to defend and thus had a rough time.
There is no real anti cheese build that can counter every cheese build. Only a refined good BO will help you a lot but won't be invincible against cheese.
Starcraft is just a learning curve starting from very easy to learn to impossible to master.
The main important thing for defending against any kind of cheese is to stay calm at all times. If you overreact you might not think calmly and do something stupid which sets you at an even greater disadvantage.
A great example is Tester's game vs Hyperdub (click).
He stays calm and doesn't overreact. Although this is a professional defending a cheese, this still applies to all players.
Defending cheese when you're new to Starcraft is very frustrating and makes the players not wanting to play ladder. But everyone gets cheesed and had the same frustration when they first started out. It's a very common thing that beginners have a lot of difficulty to fend off.
All I can say to you is to play more and learn from your mistakes, playing more games is the best method. Refining your BO will get you far in defending cheese plays.
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On October 04 2010 14:12 FuRong wrote:
...Honestly, if you get your friend to 6 pool you 10 games in a row then you'll find yourself doing a lot better next time you face someone doing it on the ladder.
This is what we did and this is what I would recommend. The most important thing I learned from it was to stay calm and not panic.
Remember that while doing cheese yourself probably won't improve your skill a lot, playing against it can actually improve your skill quite well. It will teach you a lot about the early economy in the game and how to deal with stressful situations, something you want to know sooner or later anyway.
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EPT
