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Today we were learning some easy grammar stuff. Semicolons and colons. While reviewing a paragraph about the history of yo-yos, the teacher points out this sentence as being incorrect due to a reason other than the semicolon absence that we had to correct.
In Europe they played with yo-yos; in the Philippines they used them for more serious purposes.
My teacher says the sentence is incorrect because it has incorrect pronoun usage. She said the grammar workbook made a mistake because it should say
In Europe Europeans played with yo-yos; in the Philippines Filipinos used them for more serious purposes.
It especially bothers me because she is an obnoxious and elitist person who advocates absolute perfect use of grammar in an area where people really don't give a shit. Personally, as long as you can actually understand what someone is saying then grammar doesn't really matter to me.
Anyway...I think she is exaggerating the unclear usage of pronouns in this case. It is pretty easy to assume that "they" meant Europeans and Philippians in the second part. The sentence is in the middle of the paragraph about the history of yo-yos, so nothing really crazy such as aliens would happen. If the writers were intending something different and more specific, then they would have been more specific right? With using "they", the writers were certainly implying that it was the average person in Europe or Philippines.
I did ask, "Isn't it pretty easy to assume that they were referring to Europeans and Philippines?"
She said, "Well you know what happens when you assume?"
I couldn't say anything else because unless it would've been a very short one-lined reply, her elitist self would have interrupted me mid sentence and embarrass me in front of the class.
Poll: Is the original sentence correct?No (63) 88% Yes (9) 13% 72 total votes Your vote: Is the original sentence correct? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
edit: Changed poll for clarity.
 
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Calgary25977 Posts
You can get the meaning but it's not correct unless the preceding sentence is one about human beings.
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Your sentence is grammatically ambiguous, so your teacher is right about that. However, it's not like it would be ambiguous in context with what you are writing, and especially not to anyone with a grain of common sense.
Edit: That isn't to say that it is right at all though, both the original sentence and your teacher's fix are just not good writing.
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Hmmm...
Well, my mother tongue is German so maybe I'm the wrong one to give you an advice, but it's comparable to german here.
In German a suitable word would be "man", which is an indefinite pronoun of third person. As far as I know, the English counterpart to it is "one" (surprised me, but my teacher said so). Using an indefinite pronoun would be the save approach for this sentence.
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I think replacing 'they' with 'people' might be better. The teacher's correction is just a very awkward sentence, even if it's gramatically correct.
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Remembering back to high school, I'm going with chill. If there are appropriate context clues in the passage before that sentence, the antecedent of the pronoun "they" is understood to be people in those regions.
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isnt it Filipinos, not Philippians?
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On October 01 2010 05:57 metaphoR wrote:
isnt it Filipinos, not Philippians?
It is indeed.
I dunno, the first sentence seemed perfectly understandable to me, but I'm not exactly an english professor.
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On October 01 2010 05:57 metaphoR wrote:
isnt it Filipinos, not Philippians?
Maybe the article was about the ancient Greeks bringing the yo-yo to the Philippines.
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Canada8029 Posts
Technically, the first sentence is incorrect. It'd be absolutely fine in everyday usage though.
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United States22883 Posts
Grammar is important. If you ever take the LSATs, you'll see how assumptions like that are a problem.
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On October 01 2010 05:57 metaphoR wrote:
isnt it Filipinos, not Philippians?
This.
Philippians are people of the ancient city of Philippi. It is also the title of a letter written by the apostle Paul to the church in Philippi.
Ofc, this has nothing to do with your main question, but it is a little bit funny your elitist teacher made a very simple mistake like that (assuming you quoted accurately).
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On October 01 2010 06:00 mucker wrote:
Maybe the article was about the ancient Greeks bringing the yo-yo to the Philippines.
So it's not so obvious after all, and the original sentence is wrong!
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United States10774 Posts
well there are a grammar rules that are more or less forgotten in everyday speech. but yeah it is technically incorrect.
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ya i definitely didn't quote accurately. fixed it
also, I would like to emphasize that it was used in the middle of a paragraph with four sentences before it talking about different cultures using yo-yos
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well whatever the correct grammar is, you cant take your professor too seriously. cant let her get to you that easily.
she will still probably be that way even after you challenge her and prove her wrong. some people are like that.
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The "corrected" sentence is so awkward lol. Anyway, trusting your English teacher is a good heuristic. They're usually pretty competent on the subject of "correct" grammar.
On the other hand, linguistically that string of words is obviously a sentence in the English grammar. It's important to make this distinction so that we do not mistake pedantry for knowledge.
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While your teacher said:
"In Europe Europeans played with yo-yos; in the Philippines Filipinos used them for more serious purposes."
You should add a comma after Europe and Philippines as well.
It should read:
In Europe, Europeans played with yo-yos; in the Philippines, Filipinos used them for more serious purposes.
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I do not believe the object of a preposition can be used as an antecedent, which is probably the rule that your teacher is being anal about.
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you should tell her that it's absolutely ludicrous to write in the fashion of the correction, and that no self respecting writer would ever do that without some crazy reason.
It's sadly correct but then again it's not incorrect for someone to be ejaculating in your hair but you don't want them to be doing that either.
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English is a bad language and unfortunately for you she is correct.
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Having taken a few SAT's it's pretty clear the first sentence is grammatically incorrect, but we can still understand its meaning. The two 'they' seem to be referring to the same group of people making it unclear that europeans is changing to Filipinos.
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Teacher is right, although you would probably say "In Europe people played with yo-yos, however in the Philippines they would normally use them for more serious purposes"
Up to you how you phrase it but the original sentence sounds 'wrong' so to speak, you can alter it a number of ways to make it sound better.
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8748 Posts
The only pronoun in that sentence is "them" which is used correctly. "They" isn't always a pronoun and it's clearly not being used as a pronoun here.
edit: dictionary.com's second definition of they:
people in general: They say he's rich.
So anyone saying to replace "they" with "people" or something similar is just adjusting the sentence based on their preferences, not on grammar. They're synonyms.
edit2: I bet your teacher would have me change "their preferences" to "his or her preferences" too. F that.
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On October 01 2010 06:01 Jibba wrote:
Grammar is important. If you ever take the LSATs, you'll see how assumptions like that are a problem.
Not just LSATs--the (relatively) new SAT writing portion has an entire section devoted to correcting sentence grammar, and ambiguous pronouns show up on quite a few of the questions.
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On October 01 2010 06:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:The only pronoun in that sentence is "them" which is used correctly. "They" isn't always a pronoun and it's clearly not being used as a pronoun here. edit: dictionary.com's second definition of they: So anyone saying to replace "they" with "people" or something similar is just adjusting the sentence based on their preferences, not on grammar. They're synonyms. edit2: I bet your teacher would have me change "their preferences" to "his or her preferences" too. F that.
Very true, what I wrote would be similar to how I would say the sentence, although trying to adapt that bastardised original sentence to speech is fundamentally flawed.
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On October 01 2010 06:38 Celesti wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:The only pronoun in that sentence is "them" which is used correctly. "They" isn't always a pronoun and it's clearly not being used as a pronoun here. edit: dictionary.com's second definition of they: people in general: They say he's rich. So anyone saying to replace "they" with "people" or something similar is just adjusting the sentence based on their preferences, not on grammar. They're synonyms. edit2: I bet your teacher would have me change "their preferences" to "his or her preferences" too. F that. Very true, what I wrote would be similar to how I would say the sentence, although trying to adapt that bastardised original sentence to speech is fundamentally flawed.
The problem is, what's acceptable in speech and general writing isn't always correct for standardised tests. It's one thing that's always annoyed me because I've always though 'he or she' was a sloppy looking construct.
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On October 01 2010 06:47 Nytefish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:38 Celesti wrote:On October 01 2010 06:27 Liquid`Tyler wrote:The only pronoun in that sentence is "them" which is used correctly. "They" isn't always a pronoun and it's clearly not being used as a pronoun here. edit: dictionary.com's second definition of they: people in general: They say he's rich. So anyone saying to replace "they" with "people" or something similar is just adjusting the sentence based on their preferences, not on grammar. They're synonyms. edit2: I bet your teacher would have me change "their preferences" to "his or her preferences" too. F that. Very true, what I wrote would be similar to how I would say the sentence, although trying to adapt that bastardised original sentence to speech is fundamentally flawed. The problem is, what's acceptable in speech and general writing isn't always correct for standardised tests. It's one thing that's always annoyed me because I've always though 'he or she' was a sloppy looking construct.
Yep, the original sentence is awful for written English and no one would ever construct a sentence like that. Spoken English can help in this regard as this sentence 'sounds' wrong and normally what sounds wrong in our minds whilst reading is grammatically incorrect. Well atleast for me.
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That's actually not correct, I learned from a recent blog I made as to why its wrong.
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You are mad at your teacher being elitist for teaching you proper gramamr like she is paid to?
The general public maybe not care about the grammar mistake, but a mistake is a mistake and should be pointed out.
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I hate that "his or her" bs. Can't English be not PC and just use the masculine pronoun to refer to the crowd like the other languages?
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Like everyone said, while the sentence is fine for everyday usage, it can still be improved. Though what concerns me the most is that while OP derides the teacher for being elitist (read: doing her job), the OP thinks it's ok to not care simply because he/she lives in a more secluded part of the States.
I'm certain the OP can still pursue his/her desires in life just fine, but writing well is a good skill to keep.
On October 01 2010 07:22 popnfreshspk wrote:
I hate that "his or her" bs. Can't English be not PC and just use the masculine pronoun to refer to the crowd like the other languages?
I do too, though that's more due to the scholars (and not so scholarly ones) that insist on PC, rather than English itself.
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would the first one imply that all people in Europe take it seriously? and the second imply only Europeans in Europe take it serious, and not any foreigners or natives?
idk, im probably wrong
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The original sentence implies the meaning of they, so I don't think it's a major grammatical error. However, if you ever get into college level English, you'll quickly find that writing a sentence like this will get you in trouble pretty fast. Using the word "they" without defining it is almost always a bad idea. On that note... other bad words to use in a formal paper are "there really are a lot of very good/just people."
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The first sentence is fine, but its meaning may not be as intended. It does not offer the same interpretation range as the second sentence. I wouldn't label either as better or worse, but the second is definitely more specific.
English grammar is often silly, but command of it is important in accurate, professional written communication, especially with non-native speakers who may not hold the same linguistic assumptions as a native speaker.
I don't know the circumstances of your education, but if you wish to enlighten your teacher, I recommend doing so in private, with well-prepared reasoning and evidence, and hopefully with good intentions.
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Technically its incorrect.
Pronouns are used as a placeholder for a previously used noun.
In this sentence you can't say "they" because you have not previously specified the noun "Europeans".
Pretty petty, but she technically is right. But yeah man, in casual speech, noone gives a shit.
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its ambiguous - you're basically saying in the first case that the yoyos are using 'them' for more serious purposes, where 'them' is unknown.
of course we all know what you're talking about, but just because we can fix your mistake in our mind does not mean that its correct. and if you really refuse to learn this, you'll just score a hundred points less on the SAT, nbd.
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The first sentence is fine, not incorrect. Call it casual use of language.
The meaning is clear.
If you were to send a letter to the WSJ or the Pope then I'd recommend a more formal usage.
The teacher should just teach it that way: Formal and informal.
(Prescriptive grammar vs. descriptive grammar. Follow the pronounced rules vs. discover how usage defines the rules.)
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United States4053 Posts
The problem is the context of the sentence. If the sentence is spoken, it's completely fine. If it's for a casual assignment, especially in a non-humanity class (?), the sentence would be borderline acceptable. For any scholarly or formal essays or other writing pieces, the second sentence would be imperative. Formal writing may not contain any ambiguity, which is what the first sentence unfortunately lends. Your teacher is not carping on you for no reason: she is trying to ensure you utilize the correct grammar when it counts. Rather than calling her "obnoxious and elitist," you should (even if you do it reluctantly) accept the fact that she showed you how to correct a very subtle grammatical mistake.
EDIT: The reason the sentence is ambiguous is because the pronoun "they" in the sentence could share an antecedent from the previous sentence. More correct would be to say "people" instead of "they," as someone above pointed out.
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On October 01 2010 07:14 Seide wrote:
You are mad at your teacher being elitist for teaching you proper gramamr like she is paid to?
Except she berates anyone who talks incorrectly, and it gets pretty annoying after a few months of her complaining about the same shit. I won't go into every detail because that is not the point of the blog.
edit:
Conclusion:
It is technically incorrect, and I shouldn't use it at school. Everywhere else, it is fine.
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On October 01 2010 05:33 Whole wrote:
Personally, as long as you can actually understand what someone is saying then grammar doesn't really matter to me.
I have a similar view. I consider language a tool that I can use any way I see fit. The common use of it is to convey a message to a recipient. You are right; it is often easy to understand someone even if they use "incorrect" grammar. However, it is worth considering the impact language use has on the way other people view you.
It has happened to me repeatedly at work that a poorly written email (on a technical topic) was incomprehensible to me, even after I carefully studied it. That wasted a lot of time and it was very annoying. I also have a negative view of the sender now.
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On October 01 2010 06:01 Jibba wrote:
Grammar is important. If you ever take the LSATs, you'll see how assumptions like that are a problem.
yeaaaaaaah al;sdjkfaskadjl;f
it's incorrect. people would understand it, but in any academic or professional setting... it's def wrong and anyone with a halfway decent education would realize it
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I agree with you that it is pretty obvious, but as I read the sentence in question I knew that the follow up would be a discussion of the pronoun usage. I agree that the "fixed" sentence is awkward looking too, and as such would try writing the whole thing differently.
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Norway28624 Posts
it's correct in daily speak or for writing on forums or chatting or whatever. hell, even for creative writing it's absolutely fine.
but it's not completely grammatically correct. just like you don't use contractions for academic papers. language is different dependant on context, your teacher's job is to enable you to write at the highest level possible.
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Wait, people are agreeing that the first sentence isn't grammatically correct? What's the justification for that stance? Since when does ambiguity have any reflection on whether or not a sentence is grammatically correct? And why?
If that is grammatically incorrect then I reject it on the basis that it's totally fucking nonsensical. Ambiguity is a personal choice... it should have no bearing on grammar. Grammar is about syntax...
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EPT
