Playing SC2, I'll leave all the complaints about open maps and stuff for another time, since it's being discussed basically everywhere.
But I just want to say that, after trying to watch 20+ VODs from GSL, I just can't do it. I can't stay interested in the game at all. Sure, it may be because it's all one-base play. But it's just about the graphics, the lack of enthusiasm and KOREAN DIRECT TRANSLATIONS of unit names in commentary (Korean-only, haven't watched Tastosis' commentary) and how everything is just a clusterfuck.
Yes, clusterfuck, it's been mentioned a billion times already. But honestly, as a spectator sport, it's fucking terrible. The lightings too. Army in a cluster is impossible to gauge how big it actually is. Helions going over creeps seem almost like a ninja, I had to squint my eyes several times to just spot them. There's just no individual unit's differentiation between one another. SCVs can hide under Thors (lol wtf?). If medics could blend in among marines to make muta sniping impossible, even I would admit that is some terrible imbalance.
Also, AI is too smart, making mistakes less occurring but from a spectator's point of view, not interesting. In BW, we'll go "aww fuck, he forgot to order the scvs to mine" or "he left out a control group of medics!". In sc2, with automining and one control-group for everything philosophy, all these can't happen, which kind of reduces the exciting feeling of how intense games can get. Imagine someone who went BBS and due to microing his marines, he forgot to place his main's SCVs for mining. That will fuck up his mid-late game if his rush failed (throwing aside the issue of BBS failing -> more or less game is lost), and that puts us on the edge of the seat. SC2? None.
Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
Another thing: there seems to be a lack of army/unit sounds, which really brings out the game. For example, hearing scan + stim + marines, lings and lurkers dying was so good to hear. Vessels being dropped was one of my favourite sounds, along with the sound of siege tanks. All these seem to have vanished in SC2.
I tried real hard to get into SC2 watching, but right now, it's just a painful sight.
I agree 100% with your opinion and that SC2 is definitely not as engaging and entertaining as SC1 was from a spectator point of view, but at the same time I can't help but feel that the BW ship has set sail and is slowly dying; hence regardless of how much it may be a bore we're stuck with it. (I'm sure a lot of people can agree with this).
That being said I'm completely willing to eat my words (much to my glee) and watch another dozen OSL/MSLs and a couple more Proleagues..
You did not talk about the protoss, where Zealot's "my life for aiur" has been totally fucked up. The old one and new one have significant differences. Dragoon removed? This is the worst thing ever. And what the fuck are these warp fucking gates.
The reason why I play Zerg is Zerg is conserved the most.
The biggest thing about watching GSL for me is that the units have different names. I know what is what now but honestly, having Firebear as a Marauder is just stupid, makes everything too complicated.
Oh and I completely agree about the clusterfuck thing, went out with the UofC StarCraft club and that came up in discussion briefly about how it's just one big clusterfuck and either one player wins right there or they have such a huge advantage they're going to win in the end.
On September 19 2010 15:37 Ndugu wrote: I could never understand how people could watch a glitchy game with n64 graphics and call it a Sport and put it on TV.
To each their own
To be fair, I think a lot of the "wow" stuff is going to have to come in expansions. We just have the basics atm.
Is that because you're abysmally bad and can't interpret what's going on in sc1 or something? I find it hard to believe that you can't see the merit in sc1 as a spectator sport.
On September 19 2010 15:37 Ndugu wrote: I could never understand how people could watch a glitchy game with n64 graphics and call it a Sport and put it on TV.
To each their own
To be fair, I think a lot of the "wow" stuff is going to have to come in expansions. We just have the basics atm.
I wish I didn't agree with you... From the very beginning, SC2 had this feel. And it's depressing, because I wanted it to have the same appeal as SC1. But, it doesn't. You listed a lot of reasons why you didn't enjoy watching pro games, but I think it's more than that. It's a combination of a lot of little problems like the sound is a little bit worse, and the visual clarity is a little bit worse, and dozens of other tiny things. It puts a malaise over the whole game.
On September 19 2010 15:47 NukeTheStars wrote: I wish I didn't agree with you... From the very beginning, SC2 had this feel. And it's depressing, because I wanted it to have the same appeal as SC1. But, it doesn't. You listed a lot of reasons why you didn't enjoy watching pro games, but I think it's more than that. It's a combination of a lot of little problems like the sound is a little bit worse, and the visual clarity is a little bit worse, and dozens of other tiny things. It puts a malaise over the whole game.
a little bit worse?
nah, i think it's like WAY much worse. even worse than warcraft 3.
You forgot to mention the smartcast. Perfect storms à la Jangbi ? Irradiate a defiler with a vessel slaloming between scourges into instant consume swarm / plague ? Wait wat, there are no scourge no defiler, only boring units
And I totally agree about all the lights and graphical effects, it's impossible to see anything in this clusterfuck. I was a big war2 fan, and I hated war3 for this reason as well.
Nothing that hasn't already been said, but I do agree with the OP. I too have tried as well to get into it. But I just can't, I fell asleep the last time I tuned in to the GSL T_T To me, SC2 feels like cricket (no offense to cricket lovers, I'm also not saying cricket is easy lol), it's okay to play when you're batting or bowling, but it is too boring to watch.
On September 19 2010 15:51 endy wrote: You forgot to mention the smartcast. Perfect storms à la Jangbi ? Irradiate a defiler with a vessel slaloming between scourges into instant consume swarm / plague ? Wait wat, there are no scourge no defiler, only boring units
And I totally agree about all the lights and graphical effects, it's impossible to see anything in this clusterfuck. I was a big war2 fan, and I hated war3 for this reason as well.
lol how did i miss that, smartcast too. which was what made Nada's yamato cloning epic. Made Jangbi's storms epic. Made corsair/reaver epic.
I'm positive SC2 can give the same feelings, it just needs a good year I guess to get fully polished and fast and dramatic enough for tv.
It's already pretty decent when you see Rainbow go at it in GSL, he just eviscerates people. Besides the current ex pros playing it are far from S class and were just as boring to watch play in SC1... Tester anyone =[ ?
I've liked what I've seen of SC2, at least streamed. I've had no chance to see a live event. Of course, I'm a poor player, so perhaps it takes less to impress me?
On the whole I'm willing - for now - to attribute the weaknesses of the game to lack of player and strategic development: even with the beta, the game simply hasn't been out for long and we have no idea how close we are to a semi-final balance patch (a truly final patch will have to wait a couple years). There are also several "styles" or techniques that I have yet to see (re)develop in SC2. The causes, I'll (mostly) leave to others to determine, but here they are:
- Viable harass-based play. Harass is currently a part of most strategies but a defining trait of no players or strategies (that I know of). - Standardization drop play. Of course this was going to fall off a little with Colossi and Reapers, but tanks still don't jump. - Multi-base play. The blame usually gets placed on the maps, but I'm also inclined to blame lack of experience with the game and developing safe timings.
While I don't find it hard to tell units apart, I do find it very difficult to get a good estimate on numerically. You could easily eyeball "that's about six goliaths" without even paying much attention, and you might have missed one. Here, it's "That's about... some? marauders." Again, this could be experience or it could be a problem with the game, but it's the only major one from my perspective at this point.
On September 19 2010 15:33 konadora wrote: Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
i agree with everything kind of except this. I think you have it backwards cuz there's nothing more entertaining then watching standing marines slowly fall apart after psi blades slice through them.
I felt the same way you did when I first started watching streams in the beta months ago but once you get used to the visuals its perfectly fine. I think ur just being stubborn ^_^
Defiantly agree with you on the unit sounds. I especially miss the awesome sound mass hydras made when they attacked; it went from being this really cool squirting noise in sc1 to a little pffft kind of noise in sc2. It just isn’t as manly.
On September 19 2010 15:47 NukeTheStars wrote: I wish I didn't agree with you... From the very beginning, SC2 had this feel. And it's depressing, because I wanted it to have the same appeal as SC1. But, it doesn't. You listed a lot of reasons why you didn't enjoy watching pro games, but I think it's more than that. It's a combination of a lot of little problems like the sound is a little bit worse, and the visual clarity is a little bit worse, and dozens of other tiny things. It puts a malaise over the whole game.
a little bit worse?
nah, i think it's like WAY much worse. even worse than warcraft 3.
GSL isn't entertaining in the least. It won't get entertaining for a few more rounds, still weeding out the crap (doesn't help that a lot of the good players have been eliminated through various means).
Watching TaKe's homestory cup was one of the most enjoyable viewing experiences I've had. I've come to the conclusion that as far as esports goes, SC2 isn't going to be a korean only thing - the rest of the world is just as competitive - if not more so. Tournaments like the GSL will suck because you are only looking at a handful of good players and a field of scrubs - like the ESL viking cup - it only gets interesting in the later rounds.
Wait until some really big drawn out international tournaments happen, and then we'll see what this game can really do.
oh and re: the one big battle comment, go watch the demuslim vs brat_ok series from the homestory cup and that myth is completely busted.
I dont disagree with you, but come on, let it go. The move to a more eye-candy game is unavoidable. This is the industry standard now. You can not expect Blizzard to make unit plain and simple(graphic wise) as a game released in 1998. One more thing, every company has to make profit. If they make the game too hard to pick up for new users(which is the majority of SC2 population rightnow) there sales will drop and Blizzard dont want that to happen. Really, for us SC1 players since the beginning of time. Blizzard may just update the visual on SC1 a little bit and call it SC2 we still are very happy. SC2 has its flaws, but its still the best RTS in the current-gen(nothing can compare to SC:BW) I dont see any games that can beat SC2 anytime soon. And, its good to have you back on TL, now where is my Anime related stuff? :D
I sort of see where you're coming from, and I somewhat agree, but I simply cannot fully agree.
SC2 is a lot funner to play than SC1 in my opinion, being that I'm a decent player, but not a pro, therefore things like MBS/automine/interfaceupdates make it much more accessible. It's possibly a bit less fun to watch at the moment though, but I wouldn't say radically so. I'd imagine this will change some after people as a whole don't suck so bad at the game, but as of now it seems like there's a lot of neat micro stuff but hardly any epic macro stuff.
I blame the maps, the change of focus in gameplay, and people just simply being inexperienced, mostly. It's just so much more accessible for both the player and the viewer now.
What I hate is how siege tanks fire so quickly! In bw it was suspenseful seeing someone micro their goons back from tanks, wondering whether or not a 2nd or 3rd shot was going to go off or if they'd get the hell out of there in time! But maybe its an illusion caused by the shitty sound effects, coz tanks still do huge damage in sc2 dont they? (I dont play)
I'm absolutely sure sc2 will become far far, at least 2x better to watch with korean pros. Right now I'd rather watch Oscar build his PC than put on some sc2 vods.
The only thing I agree with is that the sounds are "softer" compared to BW.
I've been having a blast following GSL and Tastosis commentary keeps me coming back for more. Just putting in my input as a fan who actually has been enjoying the SC2 scene. I really believe its just in its early stages now and it'll get better with time.
On September 19 2010 15:37 Ndugu wrote: I could never understand how people could watch a glitchy game with n64 graphics and call it a Sport and put it on TV.
To each their own
To be fair, I think a lot of the "wow" stuff is going to have to come in expansions. We just have the basics atm.
Is that because you're abysmally bad and can't interpret what's going on in sc1 or something? I find it hard to believe that you can't see the merit in sc1 as a spectator sport.
as soon as i see a comment like his i go to profile
i feel exactly the same. i could waste hours every day watching live streams and proleague ect. with huge excitement but sc2 doesn't tickle me the slightest :\ i do play quite a bit though but it is also by far not the same awesome feeling
Agreed on all fronts more or less. The detriment of visual clutter, and muted sound/graphical effects cannot be understated. I had the same problem with wc3. Stuff just doesnt feel as impactful. I dont know if it's technology-related or a conscious decision to muffle the sounds.
I am giving the mechanics and tactical wow-factor more time, so far it hasnt lived up to BW but we'll see. I feel blizzard simplified things to open up potential for crazy tactics, but then stopped without putting in mechanics for said tactics. Let's see what more time + pros can do to fix it.
In my opinion it's because it's a bunch of no-names at the moment. Maybe it's just me, and don't get me wrong I love Brood War, but watching a game between two low class players in like the round of 64, or if it were GOM, round of 128, just doesn't entertain me. I mean sometimes there are amazing plays in those games, but when it's just standard play vs standard play and I don't really know/care about either player, it's really boring. Once the Starcraft 2 scene establishes itself and there are top tier players that are making a name for themself it will start to get more entertaining
im too noob to play bw so i decided to take the coward's way out and play sc2 instead
But i agree on every front. SCBW is just so intense because of the way the game is made. Every single mistake done could be game changing,such as forgetting to bring a control group of marine medic may lead to a lost skirmish, a misclicked storm with 6 templars inside meant that you wasted 5 storms for nothing.
That is why BW is so much nicer to watch. So much intense micro, its as though the unit itself came alive and is controlling himself(i.e vessels running from scourge when huge battles are coming while your vessels does a dive to irradiate any lurkers/ultralisks/defilers in sight.
Seriously... the game is what, 2 months old? not counting the Beta. I promise you BW wasn't as exciting to watch back when it was 2 months old, you seriously need to give it some time.
konadora you have to understand that you have been conditioned for many years by bw. all of the subconscious things like the background music and the death sounds have impacted you for years.
On September 19 2010 16:44 konadora wrote: those saying about starcraft 2 establishing itself and weeding out bad players, you guys are missing the point.
it's not about the content, it's about the how the game is delivered through its graphics and physics engine and whatever not.
even if they set the right levels, the sounds just arent as cool... im missing that nice siege mode sound T_T i too am interested to see how it evolves once there will be many pros playing... danger is that korea once again will own all and kill off sc2 in the rest of the world (altho personally i think that's fine)... but we'll c i guess...
Yes, clusterfuck, it's been mentioned a billion times already. But honestly, as a spectator sport, it's fucking terrible. The lightings too. Army in a cluster is impossible to gauge how big it actually is. Helions going over creeps seem almost like a ninja, I had to squint my eyes several times to just spot them. There's just no individual unit's differentiation between one another. SCVs can hide under Thors (lol wtf?). If medics could blend in among marines to make muta sniping impossible, even I would admit that is some terrible imbalance.
oh god. try watching the lq eng stream and seeing zerglings on creep. is the most overcompressed garbage. anyways at least units in this game dont have auras and crap though. Hopefully it will only get better though. when i first started watching sc i had no idea what the disruption web was and what plague did. stuff like that wasnt exactly intuitive to spectators either.
Totally agree with Kona here, though I havent even played SC2. The spectate/observing part is quite stale, its just not as explosive or exciting as BW. Watching WC3 was more enjoyable then this.
On September 19 2010 16:52 ShaperofDreams wrote: do you think you would enjoy sc1 as a spectator sport in its first year? it was just rofl bad.
To be honest the level of play in SC2 during his first months (aka right now) is about 3 billion times superior to what it was for SC1, so I feel like that comparison isn't exactly fair either.
There's definitely not enough holy crap moments. There are HUGE comebacks that make you go wtf, but in general there's no unit like the lurker or spider mine that make you go HOLY CRAP. =\
On September 19 2010 16:44 konadora wrote: it's not about the content, it's about the how the game is delivered through its graphics and physics engine and whatever not.
The graphics and physics engines are fine, but the way the game is delivered as a spectator sport by the players is not, because everyone is still horrible at the game. Another reason why it can be less than fun to watch is because the maps are atrocious.
I do agree about the unit sounds and death animations though. And I don't like some of the new units.
I'm happily willing to give SC2 the benefit of the doubt because of the fact that it came out so recently, making it understandable that the level of play is just amateurish compared to BW, and that the maps are all a bit too small for my tastes. That kind of stuff will be fixed with time and experience.
However, the issue with visual clarity is definitely one of the biggest reasons for why I haven't been able to get into SC2 yet, and I'm not sure how easily this can be fixed - the clumping is just that much more severe in 3D, and in most games I play or watch there's definitely a, "... I have no idea how many Zerglings there are in that" or "eh... that's 7 Marauders? No wait, 8. 9." kind of feeling that *might* be fixed by giving units slightly larger displacement sizes so they don't stack/clump so much, but I don't think that's gonna happen. That may just be something inherent in the 3D engine, I think.
Still, it seems many people are able to get past this point and are enjoying the game, so props to them, but it's just not happening for me yet.
From the perspective of someone who hasn't played Sc1 since a year after BroodWar first came out, I gotta say I find Sc2 a lot more compelling and exciting. I think in the end a lot of it comes down to familiarity. I play Sc2 and not Sc1 so I find it a lot more interesting.
If you compare it to sports it would be like asking a diehard Soccer fan to suddenly start watching Rugby, of course they're not going to enjoy it as much because they have an intimate understanding of Soccer and probably understand lots of stuff in games that would wash over most people's heads.
I really hope both games stay alive and well, as there are clearly lots of people who enjoy both.
I agree with you entirely. Even the "good" games in GSL thus far have been a complete bore when compared to good BW games. I can't really explain how I feel about it, but even when I'm watching a game that's apparently on the razor's edge in who will be the victor, there is absolutely no intensity in the feel of the game. The only game I've even been slightly on my seat for in the last several GSL matches was the most recent Tester PvP match, and that just had a hilariously bad end to it.
That's not to say that it won't eventually get good. If Boxer and other really innovative players manage to tear the game apart piece by piece and show us some amazing trick and feats of micro, it definitely has potential, but I'm not sure anything will ever be as good as watching a mass of MnM die to stop lurkers or the rush you feel as every scarab launches towards a mass of peons.
On another note, I'm not as much of a fan of the GOM English commentary as I use to be. Maybe I'm just feeling nostalgic and miss SDM.
Apart from everything else you said Kona~~, the thing that made me the most furious was the fact that units sounds ARE gone. I can't remember how said it but there was a thread or something where they stated that siege tanks in BW had this over-exaggerated sound when they sieged and shot. Although it was a bit exaggerated that's what made it so amazing! Listening to siege tanks siege was one of the best things I loved about Terran, it would just sound so beautiful to my ears.
Don't even get me started on Zerg... sigh sounds are literally fucking gone from that race. The sound on Zerg is just fucking terrible, there's no more epic loudness to them. Like overlords... they had such loud amazing sounds in BW now they just sound like fuck. (I really miss the Overmind for the adviser -.-)
Protoss... Dt's, Stalkers, HT's, Phoenix's sound like they have the same exact terrible fucking voice actor. OH YEAH VOICE ACTORS SUCK IN SC2! One thing I'm happy with is that they kept the same voice actor and sounds for the toss adviser and probes.
Last of all... the music.. just garbage that's all I have to say.
TL:DR - SC2 sounds/music/voice actors are fucking awful. SLASH END RANT.
In my opinion, watching B's is more enjoyable than SC2. As its 'new' feel fades, it really loses its value. Not that being a B is easy, but there are better players in SC2.
Lets put the graphics and sound aside, when you watch an amateur play Broodwar even as a D player you can spot the distinctions to a pro player immediately. That's why i await the real progamers.
Once the game is more refined i guarantee you that 80% of todays players will fall off the boat. Now you see players in the GSL with like 1control group of units and 2 more for buildings while Tester goes up to 7-8 with crazy high apm. This allone may not win him the game yes, but it is the right fundamentals to go with the evolution of starcraft2.
To give you another example. I saw some players multitask and their minerals and gas skyrocketed to nowhere but they still won. As soon as more pros come over all these players will have to up their level because these are the things a progamer in BW has to refine to the maximum to even be competitive.
I just hope i'm not wrong because SC2 would get very boring very soon.
Its hard on the eyes, thats true. I can definitely make out what happens when the VOD/stream is super super HD, but in BW you could make shit out even when it was terribly low quality. Disappointing, to say the least.
Completely agree with you. The cluster fuck and overall game design turns me off the most. I also fail to see how players like boxer could change something that is built into the game design, it's just impossible. Btw yes i thought Bw was very entertaining even in his first year.
It's just overall you don't wan't to start making a game with the mindset of making a balanced e-sport rts.You will end up like now with a lot of boring units. It should be all about the spectators and to have fun using nice unit micro/macro. Balance can come later when the fun is there. But somehow i didn't saw a whoa very nice unit in sc2 yet, all fun units from Bw got deleted
I think your problem is that you want so bad for SC2 to be what SC1 was to you when you were at a younger age. SC1 has been absolutely embedded into you. Your mind is basically rejecting change.
You love every sound, not because that particular sound was so great, but because of your passion for the game.
The new generation of gamers, their first epic RTS is SC2. Everything about sc2 will be en-grained and held to the highest regard, just like it is for the OP & SC1.
I have enjoyed watching streams even in the early going here. As PoP said, the level of play is so much superior to BW. Just watch Grrr....'s OSL victory games if you don't believe me.
What worries me is that I don't see the ceiling for SC2 being anywhere near as high as what BW gave us. I worry that what we see now might be closer to the end than the beginning.
Some of it is fair enough (I dont even play on the Ultra settings, which is what they use to broadcast, its just too busy - I like the game better on medium or lower)...
However:
Also, AI is too smart, making mistakes less occurring but from a spectator's point of view, not interesting. In BW, we'll go "aww fuck, he forgot to order the scvs to mine" or "he left out a control group of medics!". In sc2, with automining and one control-group for everything philosophy, all these can't happen, which kind of reduces the exciting feeling of how intense games can get. Imagine someone who went BBS and due to microing his marines, he forgot to place his main's SCVs for mining. That will fuck up his mid-late game if his rush failed (throwing aside the issue of BBS failing -> more or less game is lost), and that puts us on the edge of the seat. SC2? None.
Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
Meh - I dont think this contributed at all to making BW enjoyable, and if you had actually played the game youd see the AI isnt at all that great... Infact, it can be downright retarded when it comes to pathing around friendly units on hold position or trying to reach a bunker to repair.
On September 19 2010 19:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Some of it is fair enough (I dont even play on the Ultra settings, which is what they use to broadcast, its just too busy - I like the game better on medium or lower)...
Also, AI is too smart, making mistakes less occurring but from a spectator's point of view, not interesting. In BW, we'll go "aww fuck, he forgot to order the scvs to mine" or "he left out a control group of medics!". In sc2, with automining and one control-group for everything philosophy, all these can't happen, which kind of reduces the exciting feeling of how intense games can get. Imagine someone who went BBS and due to microing his marines, he forgot to place his main's SCVs for mining. That will fuck up his mid-late game if his rush failed (throwing aside the issue of BBS failing -> more or less game is lost), and that puts us on the edge of the seat. SC2? None.
Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
Meh - I dont think this contributed at all to making BW enjoyable, and if you had actually played the game youd see the AI isnt at all that great... Infact, it can be downright retarded when it comes to pathing around friendly units on hold position or trying to reach a bunker to repair.
The pathing around forcefields is down right retarded
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
I don't agree with most of the OP, but a couple of things stood out to me.
I was intrigued by your comments about unit sounds, so I went and rewatched a few BW and SC2 games to see for myself. The result is that I completely agree with you on this point - the sounds are much more varied, louder and clearer in BW, and you can instantly hear what is happening just by listening to the ingame sounds. Even something as simple as Dropships loading and unloading is really clear. In SC2 the sounds are not like this, especially the sounds of units dying seem kind of generic and lacking flavour. Strangely enough, I never even noticed this until you pointed it out =/
Nothing can really be done about the graphics, but I think it would help if the lighting was improved a bit on some maps. It does seem pretty dark at times, especially on maps like Kulas and Metalopolis.
In a broader sense, I think things that make the game exciting for spectators are: 1) when you don't know who's gonna win for a long time (suspense) 2) when the game is building up to a large climactic moment (large battle, key harrass etc) 3) when there is a lot on the line (ie: finals, or a clash between two big name players) 4) when you really care about the result or players (ie: you're a fanboy)
In return, things which make the game boring or uninteresting for spectators: 1) when it's really obvious early in the game who will win 2) when both players are just sitting there making units and not attacking/doing anything 3) there is not a lot on the line 4) noone really cares about the result of the game or the players involved
Obviously, at this stage of the GSL we're not going to get much excitement from point 3 because we're in the early rounds of the tournament, or from point 4 because the game hasn't been around long enough for players to develop a dedicated group of fans. If you're finding the games boring, I think it has to do more with points 1 and 2. There have been some fantastic games, for example, when Tester got proxied in that game on Metalopolis, it was an intense moment because we were all waiting to see if he would even be able to scout it, let alone hold it with some amazing micro. Another good game I can think of was a TvT on Scrap Station (I think it was AugustWerra in Ro32) where there were a lot of drops and back and forth play, with both players trading the lead several times before the outcome was decided.
Unfortunately, there have also been a lot of rather uninspiring games. Games where one player has a clear advantage but just macros up and eventually delivers one crushing blow are not very exciting, whether it be BW or SC2. It does seem that so far we have seen a lot more of these games in the GSL, but to be honest I don't think there is much excitement in watching Flash clinically destroy some newcomer in a proleague match either. Hopefully we will see games with more suspense and climactic moments as the tournament progresses.
As a final thought, when I look back over the games so far it seems that a lot of the "memorable" moments have come from Baneling use and Forcefield use, especially the former. Burrowed Banelings, Baneling drops, Banelings in large numbers wrecking buildings, Banelings surrounding and blowing up huge armies..they definitely seem to be worth more in entertainment value for spectators than most of the other new units. I feel that this is the closest thing to a Lurker or Spider Mine that we have at the moment, but there is definitely potential for others to develop.
I really can't agree. SC2 isn't at the level BW has been for me in the past, because the level of play is lower, but I can't really watch BW anymore without wishing it was SC2.
I stopped trying to quantify what excites me in each game long ago. I just know that BW really is an ugly looking game next to SC2 and the clumping doesn't bother me. ll Comparing anything based on GSL is a mistake. GSL has not been good.
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote: I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote: I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over.
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote: I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over.
Try to watch BW in its early days. Its boring as hell back then. SC2 is no where as good as SC:BW. I dont think we need to argue about this fact anymore. But as a next main-game of E-sport. SC2 can do fine. Please do not compare high level SC:BW games(which take many year to develop to its current level) with SC2(still in its infancy).
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote: I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
well, in SC2 zerg actually camps to get maxed out... SC1 just feels a lot more dynamic for me as a spectator. The main difference is the zerg
Also, comparing the early days of Sc1 with the current state of SC2 is rubbish
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote: I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over.
Try to watch BW in its early days. Its boring as hell back then. SC2 is no where as good as SC:BW. I dont think we need to argue about this fact anymore. But as a next main-game of E-sport. SC2 can do fine. Please do not compare high level SC:BW games(which take many year to develop to its current level) with SC2(still in its infancy).
I follow BW even before BW and I`m still hooked. Even that by today standarts games back then are bad, they were extremely entertaining.
I can understand some of the points you make since I used to feel the same way, but I mostly disagree nonetheless. First of all Jinro is right esp. with two things - medium/low settings give a clearer vision of what's going on and wth, someone forgetting to send his SCVs to mining is not what BW made great even in the slightest imho. Also I dont know how it is in korean version, but slicing up marines with DTs looks pretty damn brutal. Just like it should.
I think the "two huge blobs attack each other and who comes ahead is the victor of the game" really isn't true anymore, have you watched BratOK's TvP for example? The way in which he dismantles his opponents in all the things that are not main army battles is amazing, even though it's also painful for me to watch as a protoss player :p Socke's PvT also has a lot of "wow"-moments. When demuslim plays I often think "damn, sick micro" Overall the battles are indeed not as exciting to watch yet as in bw and there still are a lot of two blob-battles that look a bit boring and there's not as many woah-moments like reapershots,hold lurkers but there's lots of exceptions. at IEM in cologne the crowd went wild every time there'd be a big confrontation of baneling muta ling vs tank+mmm, not any less exciting whatsoever than lurker ling vs mm if not more imo (in average).
I feel the same way. As a game sc2 isn't bad, but as a spectator sport I just can't take it. I too tried watching GSL a few times, but kept getting bored from the blob vs blob play.
KONA, I so AGREE with you on this! I have been following BW for a long time, watching most OSL/MSL finals and the PL. I was first excited about the prospect of watching both BW and SC2 at the same time, but... I just could not get into the GSL at all! Most matches managed to bore me to sleep halfway through.
The problems were very glaring. First and foremost, the badly-designed maps. Too dark, too lacking of an identity (BW maps all had an identity to them, unique battlefields that offered myriad strategies), and limited opportunities. What I am speaking of, is one-base play, macro-ing up and only pushing "clusterfuck" units against each other towards the end of each game. What happened to harrass, timing pushes, and in the beauty of BW, "smartcasts"? (Quoting another person... perfect storms, plaguuuuu, swarms.... etc.)
The graphics were too unintelligible to tell each unit apart, and to see what the f*ck was going on. From what I saw of SC2, most units were spider-isque in design (say hello to eight-legged freaks). No "ooooohhh, those lurkers are ambushing the marines!", but rather, one big macro battle determining the victor near the end of each SC2 game. Sure, there were occassional flashes of brilliance, but even those were not too exciting to watch. Units were dying WAY too fast.
I could go on and on about the deficiencies of SC2 as a spectator sport, but that would make up almost an essay in itself. I wanted to give SC2 a chance, but without the enthusiastic commentary made famous by BW Korean casters, I could never feel emotion watching it. That, and the current Kespa-Gretech thing, and SC2 only gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
Maybe, if future patches improve SC2, it may become more watchable to me. But I doubt it will ever reach the pinnacle of greatness that BW was, and always will be, in Esports.
I agree in large part, especially with the issues of visual clarity and sound. 3D is pretty bad for this kind of game, it makes everything faded and hazy, even on lower settings. Events lack the clarity and impact they had in BW. Combine that with the muted, more "realistic" sound effects and you have much more dull-looking battles.
As for the gameplay itself, I do think it'll improve as people have been saying, but I don't see anything as sexy as muta micro or shuttle/reaver micro or vulture minelaying ever appearing. And that's why I think sc2 can give off the impression of nothing happening until the big blob clash, even if there are smaller battles. BW just felt more busy, with the muta harrassment phases, vultures vs. dragoons, lurkers... Vultures pushing back dragoons with mines; mutalisks dismantling a base with surgical micro; a reaver pulling off some mad scarabs; mnm vs lurker positioning and repositioning. All these very exciting small-scale engagements happen in the midgame,before any big battles, and there's nothing in sc2 that compares to them.
Basically, the most exciting units and abilities of BW have been removed from the game. What made them exciting was that they were imba, but difficult to use. Now autocasting and smarter AI has forced Blizzard to weaken many abilities.
Also, balance issues aside, marauders are horrible units. They're fast (stimmed), they're powerful and they can take a huge amount of punishment. Whenever marauders are on the scene, especially stimmed, it's like every other unit becomes a joke (aside from air obviously): formidable siege tank lines? Lol stim, rush in and blow em to pieces. In BW vultures vs unsupported siege tanks required sweet micro. Ur main? Lol drop and kill it in two seconds. In BW cracklings and marines were weak, so you had to use micro for mnm drops, running around lurkers/swarms, and cracklings generally failed without swarm, unless you were hitting a completely undefended expo. In sc2 marauders laugh at everything on the ground. Hell, they'd survive 5 lurker spines if lurkers were in the game.
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote: I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
This 200/200 clash is due to players these days not confident in their micro to win with smaller armies. Months from now when we see these pro-teams practicing for 12+ hours daily is when we will start seeing those small battles like in brood war. Also, not everyone who is at the top of sc2 has crazy 350+ apm like the pro's in Proleague.
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote: I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over.
Thats mostly cause theres a bunch of gigantic mismatches in the GSL tho -.- Any close TvT is going to have at least as much happening as an SC1 TvT, same with TvP. TvZ it depends I guess, watching a Terran turtle until 200/200 with 3-3 upgrades is about as fun in sc2 as in sc1.
When I "watch" sc2 I usually leave the sound on in the background while I do something else so I know the results :p Agreed, a lot of sc2 matches just aren't fun/is difficult to watch for me. But then again, I groan when there's a ZvZ or TvT with two B-Teamers in STX masters or something.
YES! I feel exactly the same way. I love playing SC2, so I decided to watch some on hd's channel, but its just terrible. I can't do it, the units kind of all look the same, the lighting is terrible on night maps. Its just not a spectator sport
Wow, so many staunch defenders of SC2 pop up, all trying to find excuses =(
There are games that are just hard to watch, and I think SC2 is one of them. The 3D is rather disorienting when you're watching the game as a spectator. I don't think Kona said much about the players playing, just the game mechanics/graphics instead.
But one thing -- I think the SC2 version played on TV atm is the Korean censored version, so they did nerf down a lot of the death graphics.
hmmm.... depends on match up. The 3D/cluster thing... if a toss have 4 or 5 colossi in this army then all I can see are the colossi as thy cover up everything else due to their size and how they can step over units. Also in BW I feel that units take more "room" (zerglings are so small in sc2, and that marine ball seem so much... more dense)
I suspect as the game evolves and as maps get a lot bigger we will see less of that 1 big army v 1 big army fight and will be seeing more multi-front battle+harassment (already emerging in tvX). Imagine a bigger version of desert oasis where placing an army on your ramp wouldnt save both your main and natural.
On September 19 2010 22:44 Milkis wrote: Wow, so many staunch defenders of SC2 pop up, all trying to find excuses =(
There are games that are just hard to watch, and I think SC2 is one of them. The 3D is rather disorienting when you're watching the game as a spectator. I don't think Kona said much about the players playing, just the game mechanics/graphics instead.
I dont really get what you mean by "trying to find excuses" except for the one argument that people arent playing the game at the highest level yet.
I truely enjoy watching the game and I never find myself disoriented.
It's really freaking problematic you can't even see scvs underneath Thors- not just as a spectator. I lost to like 4 Thors when I had an entire army because I couldn't even see the scvs underneath the Thors. When I finally got it down to 1 Thor, I still couldn't see the last three scvs and lost due to that.
Now sure, you could make it so scvs are autotargeted when repairing, but this would never be a problem to begin with if scvs were big enough that you could actually see and target them. Good grief.
On September 20 2010 01:16 zer0das wrote: It's really freaking problematic you can't even see scvs underneath Thors- not just as a spectator. I lost to like 4 Thors when I had an entire army because I couldn't even see the scvs underneath the Thors. When I finally got it down to 1 Thor, I still couldn't see the last three scvs and lost due to that.
Now sure, you could make it so scvs are autotargeted when repairing, but this would never be a problem to begin with if scvs were big enough that you could actually see and target them. Good grief.
And dark swarm or floating buildings were fair in that sense?
i must be getting crazy. but watching that reminds me of reaper gay killing all ur lings, and then getting ur queen and the hatch. although doing that with vultures is 10x harder in bw, visually they arent too different, both units can outrun lings and can kite them forever
I was surfing Liquipedia II and just by chance I came across the Engineering Bay and I looked at it and realized that during every single game where Terran has gotten an E-Bay, I just don't see it, it blends in. Compared to SC1 where the E-Bay is pretty hard to NOT see if it's on screen.
It's probably much easier to see what's going on when you're using a gigantic monitor and not trying to watch a 200x300 stream, but it's still and issue, especially for something that's meant to step up and take the place of SC1.
I keep wondering if they'll release a graphics fix to brighten things up. Anyone remember the SC1 beta graphics? Hah.
I can sympathize with your complaints, but honestly, I can't see how it could possibly be any different. Clumped up units, smart AI, automine, etc. - you can't really expect Blizzard to intentionally give the game suboptimal AI/pathing just to make it more like BW. It sounds pretty silly to say Blizzard designed a game badly because they made the AI and pathing "too good".
That's what's so unfortunate about this whole thing: BW's crappy interface and AI is one of the things that made it so great. Taking it away may take something away from the game, but again - do you really blame them? Can you really see them NOT making these improvements that are pretty much expected, given the technology available today?
Some of the other things are fixable (sounds, animations), and I hope that will happen. And I really do firmly believe that it will get more interesting to watch as time goes on. Earlier today I was actually watching Grrr... vs H.O.T. Forever OSL finals, and it was just laughable compared to what BW has become today, and frankly, not nearly as interesting to watch. Obviously SC2 isn't starting in as much of an RTS/e-sports stone age as that game was, but there is still a ton of room for evolution and changes in playstyle. (Most notably 1-base plays)
And lastly, you have to remember that while designing the new units/abilities for the expansions, Blizzard is listening. They want SC2 to succeed as an e-sport as much as we do (well, some of us), so they're certainly going to take feedback into account to do the best job possible. I can guarantee you that they have ready tons of post just like this. They know a lot of things that are wrong, they know what people want more of (RIBORIBORIBO AHHHHH), and I have a lot of faith that they can make that happen in the expansions.
The biggest thing that bothers me is how atrocious unit movement is. Watching a big ball of Terran units with tanks mixed sort of "slide" like a liquid together across the map just makes me wonder how they were satisfied with that kind of AI / pathing. Units frolicking back and forth when trying to move and spinning around. It's just TERRIBLE.
i must be getting crazy. but watching that reminds me of reaper gay killing all ur lings, and then getting ur queen and the hatch. although doing that with vultures is 10x harder in bw, visually they arent too different, both units can outrun lings and can kite them forever
In that case it wasn't. Microing speed vultures vs. lings is ridiculously easy. I suspect things like TLO's Reapers vs. roaches/queen are much higher difficulty.
EDIT: Yes, I know the main difficulty is in multitasking at the same time, I'm just saying that TLO's margin of error was much less.
On September 20 2010 01:16 zer0das wrote: It's really freaking problematic you can't even see scvs underneath Thors- not just as a spectator. I lost to like 4 Thors when I had an entire army because I couldn't even see the scvs underneath the Thors. When I finally got it down to 1 Thor, I still couldn't see the last three scvs and lost due to that.
Now sure, you could make it so scvs are autotargeted when repairing, but this would never be a problem to begin with if scvs were big enough that you could actually see and target them. Good grief.
And dark swarm or floating buildings were fair in that sense?
You can see units under dark swarm unless they've casted it multiple times on the same patch. Floating buildings don't attack, so unless it's the scvs on the ramp with marines behind them and a rax over it, it almost isn't ever a problem.
I agree with Kona. This game is just not nearly as intense as BW. Sure, it's early, but all the little things add up that just kill its potential. There hasn't been a single moment where I'm on the edge of my seat, unlike in SCBW watching a reaver drop.
I disagree. I loved playing BW, but I could never get into watching the matches. After SC2, I would watch people's streams and watch the VODs as much as I would ladder. It's just a much more enjoyable game for me in all aspects.
I think people citing the fact that BW was boring in its early days need to stop, because it was only boring in RETROSPECT. Seriously, back then that shit was intense and awesome.
New strategies and stronger players won't really bring forth a more entertaining experience. Lower level BW is still damn entertaining for a normal spectator, even more than SC2's higher level games. I'd have to suspect that new maps won't bring a much better viewing experience either, due to battle mechanics. Like Konadora said, its simply the presentation that kills the spectating experience of SC2.
What really kills the experience for me is how.. distant I feel from the action. I think this has to do with how zoomed out things are, a battle of almost any scale will make me rather yawn. The grapic clarity is bad, the unit sound is uninspiring, and things are so damn small its too hard to get excited at a distance.
Also how units ball up so perfectly and 200/200 armies move around unnaturally perfect, and that battles are over so fast that I didn't even get to enjoy the explosions.. 200/200 battles are just not impressive in SC2. In BW, units tended to sprawl out instead, and when 200/200 armies clashed in BW, just how the armies engaged each other makes it a lot more fun to watch.
I dunno, I just can't get excited over 2 balls clashing into each other.
How many times can you watch two armies 1a into each other before you simply cannot pretend that you find it enjoyable anymore? The sounds and graphics are simply not as good as in Brood War. In BW, you can immediately figure out that the siege tank arclite cannon is not something to fuck around with just by listening to the sound. You can tell that the zealot has a lot of attack. Wraith ground attack sounds weak. Blue lightning over someone's units are not good. That orange cloud probably provides some cover. Lurkers can be pretty nasty. Archons look like they pack a punch.
It's really easy to see what's going on and even if you have never played the game before you can kinda figure out what's good for you and what's bad. I don't think it's that way for SC2.
Don't understand what people find so enjoyable about watching this shit.
On September 20 2010 21:02 Wargizmo wrote: I challenge anyone to watch game 1 of TLO vs Hyperdub and still think Sc2 is boring.
It was pretty good I must say. Probably the most entertaining in SC2 yet. Well, to the people that say old bw games were bad, I still prefer Coca Cola OSL final (2001), game 3 for instance, was much better than anything I've seen in SC2 (quite a lot in fact for various reasons). I'm not comparing it to more modern games of course, would be too easy =) So yeah, it takes a big comeback from a crowd favorite for SC2 to be interesting to watch =)
I dunno why so much hate on the GSL (don't mean from OP); the tourny still hasn't started the RO16 and there's already been a lot of great to watch series. Most of the major tournies didn't have nearly as many good as this one has already.
I agree with konadora that SC2's units quickly become a giant blog in which it's hard to tell wtf is going on, especially if you are on a lower stream quality. This is such a problem in the current games, because a lot of the games don't feature much drop play and do just end up with a lot of 1a play, which is crap to watch anyway and even worse with SC2's units. I think this could be really helped by a new map pool to suit e-sports, these maps have already been played to death and lot of the maps aren't very good anyway. But, I really don't know when Blizz are gonna update their map pool, since they want to keep the ladder pool for everyone the same as the tourny pool which fails. Hope we don't see another WC3 situation.
EDIT: That is new maps to help more interesting plays, rather than 1 base a move stuff, on split map then a move.
On September 20 2010 21:02 Wargizmo wrote: I challenge anyone to watch game 1 of TLO vs Hyperdub and still think Sc2 is boring.
Game 1 was fairly entertaining I agree. It doesn't stop the game having huge visual clarity issues and sound problems. In terms of spectating it just makes watching it a chore at times trying to figure out what is going on.
It's been said before but it has to be said again in the hope that Blizzard picks up on the problems and improves... The whole point of having a good game that is also a spectator event is being able to tell what the hell is going on.
I found the Dark Swarm comment earlier in the thread pretty strange because it's damn obvious that Dark Swarm is up and you CAN see units under it. Compare it to PDD in SC2 and you seriously have to squint hard and concentrate right on the raven to see if a PDD goes down, it is so hard to see in comparison to dark swarm I just.. don't know what Blizzard was thinking.
Hydras also stand out as having the same problem... along with about every other unit to a certain degree.
The sound designers who worked on Brood War were absolute geniuses, you can tell every unit apart from what it sounds like, you can tell when things die and you can tell who is winning from the sounds alone. Combine this with super clear obvious graphics and you have something that is easy to watch and as a result easy to enjoy good play.
When I watch a battle in SC2 everything just blurs together, the sounds don't have enough power or uniqueness. Mirror matches are the worst - I honestly can't tell who has what units most of the time. Even if I am playing in 1920x1080 res on max on my 27 inch monitor I still have trouble on some maps because they are so dark... the question is why?
And yes I agree, SC2 is worse than WC3 in terms of visual clarity and sound design.
On September 20 2010 21:02 Wargizmo wrote: I challenge anyone to watch game 1 of TLO vs Hyperdub and still think Sc2 is boring.
In terms of spectating it just makes watching it a chore at times trying to figure out what is going on.
I hear this time and time again, but I've never understood how people can think BW is easier to follow than Sc2. Sc2 has so many observer tools like the production and unit tabs - as long as the observer knows what he's doing you always know what people are building and what strategies they are going and exactly who is ahead. Sc1 matches don't even show the food count for each player unless it's the OSL who have that custom screen edited in. I often have to look at the chatroom or LR thread to figure out who's winning.
The units themselves I find are FAR clearer in Sc2; in Sc1 I see a mutalisk stack and I have no idea if it's 4 mutalisks or 12 mutalisks I'm watching. Dark swarm just looks ugly and confuses the action for me and some spells like irradiate on a burrowed unit doesn't even show up at all.
I would like to see the opinions of a non-Sc1 player on whether it's easier to follow than Sc2 or not because I have a feeling a lot of Sc1 veterans are so used to the game that they don't even realise stuff is actually quite hard to pick up on to the untrained eye.
On September 20 2010 21:02 Wargizmo wrote: I challenge anyone to watch game 1 of TLO vs Hyperdub and still think Sc2 is boring.
i never said it was boring
i said it's freaking hard to make out what's going on + lack of sounds makes it less "connected" and "real" as compared to bw, because of all the points i mentioned in the first post
content-wise, that game was good, i won't deny it.
On September 20 2010 18:20 ArvickHero wrote: New strategies and stronger players won't really bring forth a more entertaining experience. Lower level BW is still damn entertaining for a normal spectator, even more than SC2's higher level games.
My god you're subjective. What exactly do you mean by "normal spectator" .. I suppose you mean yourself? I've got several friends I tried to get into watching BW and I never managed to achieve that, the same people, however, now enjoy watching SC2 a lot.
Oh and on a completely unrelated note, since this is your blog
On September 20 2010 13:10 konadora wrote: lol haha
On September 20 2010 21:02 Wargizmo wrote: I challenge anyone to watch game 1 of TLO vs Hyperdub and still think Sc2 is boring.
i never said it was boring
i said it's freaking hard to make out what's going on + lack of sounds makes it less "connected" and "real" as compared to bw, because of all the points i mentioned in the first post
content-wise, that game was good, i won't deny it.
that game was good and sc2 should develop a bit more for me to make a final statement but its much easier on the eyes to watch a bw game. The more i watch sc2 the more I crave to see what is happening but the graphics turn the excitement a bit off.
I don't see how you could possibly make such huge, sweeping judgements based on a stream that is obviously inferior to actual game quality... would anyone take me seriously if I loaded up atdhe.net, flipped on a crappy NFL stream and said, 'this blows, I can't tell what's going on'??
And jesus, the stuff in this thread. There's a group of people complaining that it's only 1 base play and it never goes past it. Then on 5, there's a bunch of people complaining that it's only 200/200 blobs each game. IT CAN'T BE BOTH PEOPLE.
So many people want and treat SC2 like it's BW, and just can't accept it's a different game in the same cannon
I agree 100% on the sounds and death animations even in the non-censored version.
But I think the rest is a lack of experience. I can look at any thing at anytime and figure out what's going on. There is some issues like Zerglings being hard to spot on the creep on Ultra but with all the great observer tools (production tab is the greatest thing ever) I think you need to know more what's going on.
It's no different than BW, when I first started watching competitive play in BW I had NO CLUE what was going on until I knew what to look for, much like SCII.
I can't stand watching a SC2 stream. A lot of the stuff that you pointed out are probably the reasons why I have an innate dislike for watching SC2 streams. It's just doesn't feel as manly as the original.
The graphics bugged me a lot at first. I found it very difficult to parse information and watching a game just seemed chaotic. However, the more I played the game the better my spectator experience got as I became familiar with how the units blended into their surroundings. I had a similar experience when I started watching BW but it was far more subdued.
Either way, maybe you should try playing the game some more and as a result you may find it easier to watch. If you've already played a lot of games then my apologies, I'm simply stating what happened in my experience.
complaining about 1-control group syndrome is fairly shallow criticism. it should be obvious that players who acutely control their armies with multiple groups will have a micro advantage against those who don't. try grouping your ghost / marines / medivacs into one group and see what happens when you encounter a toss army.
I really hate the natural balls that units form. Seriously, armies don't fucking mass move in huge circles. They come in flipping WAVES. Nothing for me willl beat late-game toss army v zerg ultraling 400 supply dukeout in the middle of Andromeda. NOTHING.
On September 21 2010 01:36 Hawk wrote: I don't see how you could possibly make such huge, sweeping judgements based on a stream that is obviously inferior to actual game quality... would anyone take me seriously if I loaded up atdhe.net, flipped on a crappy NFL stream and said, 'this blows, I can't tell what's going on'??
And jesus, the stuff in this thread. There's a group of people complaining that it's only 1 base play and it never goes past it. Then on 5, there's a bunch of people complaining that it's only 200/200 blobs each game. IT CAN'T BE BOTH PEOPLE.
So many people want and treat SC2 like it's BW, and just can't accept it's a different game in the same cannon
Of course we can. As a spectator, what we have are the streams.
and iirc kona is watching Korean VODs, which is far better quality than american ones.
On September 21 2010 01:36 Hawk wrote: I don't see how you could possibly make such huge, sweeping judgements based on a stream that is obviously inferior to actual game quality... would anyone take me seriously if I loaded up atdhe.net, flipped on a crappy NFL stream and said, 'this blows, I can't tell what's going on'??
Or if Al Michaels and Chris Colinsworth talked about the shape of a goalpost while the camera panned on a water cooler, as a play was going on. :x
This morning watching GSL, I also felt like super exciting SC2 stuff was hard to watch/follow, but I think a lot of it falls on the observing.
On September 21 2010 01:36 Hawk wrote: I don't see how you could possibly make such huge, sweeping judgements based on a stream that is obviously inferior to actual game quality... would anyone take me seriously if I loaded up atdhe.net, flipped on a crappy NFL stream and said, 'this blows, I can't tell what's going on'??
And jesus, the stuff in this thread. There's a group of people complaining that it's only 1 base play and it never goes past it. Then on 5, there's a bunch of people complaining that it's only 200/200 blobs each game. IT CAN'T BE BOTH PEOPLE.
So many people want and treat SC2 like it's BW, and just can't accept it's a different game in the same cannon
Of course we can. As a spectator, what we have are the streams.
and iirc kona is watching Korean VODs, which is far better quality than american ones.
The Korean obs is pretty terrible too. I didn't last night but up until that Youtube channel got taken down, I was watching Korean video + English audio. Korean obs was also late to engagements and never pulled up important unit tabs.
On September 21 2010 01:36 Hawk wrote: I don't see how you could possibly make such huge, sweeping judgements based on a stream that is obviously inferior to actual game quality... would anyone take me seriously if I loaded up atdhe.net, flipped on a crappy NFL stream and said, 'this blows, I can't tell what's going on'??
And jesus, the stuff in this thread. There's a group of people complaining that it's only 1 base play and it never goes past it. Then on 5, there's a bunch of people complaining that it's only 200/200 blobs each game. IT CAN'T BE BOTH PEOPLE.
So many people want and treat SC2 like it's BW, and just can't accept it's a different game in the same cannon
Of course we can. As a spectator, what we have are the streams.
and iirc kona is watching Korean VODs, which is far better quality than american ones.
The Korean obs is pretty terrible too. I didn't last night but up until that Youtube channel got taken down, I was watching Korean video + English audio. Korean obs was also late to engagements and never pulled up important unit tabs.
I completely agree with what you have to say about the sounds. I hate how boring and soft the sounds are. It makes me sad to watch them all make boring sides.
Largely agreed on the visuals and sounds. Stuff clusters up too much and just vanishes on death compared to BW (fields of blue soup!), and sounds are not really distinct either. I don't mind watching the gameplay so much, but those areas could benefit from some polishing.
EPT
