Playing SC2, I'll leave all the complaints about open maps and stuff for another time, since it's being discussed basically everywhere.
But I just want to say that, after trying to watch 20+ VODs from GSL, I just can't do it. I can't stay interested in the game at all. Sure, it may be because it's all one-base play. But it's just about the graphics, the lack of enthusiasm and KOREAN DIRECT TRANSLATIONS of unit names in commentary (Korean-only, haven't watched Tastosis' commentary) and how everything is just a clusterfuck.
Yes, clusterfuck, it's been mentioned a billion times already. But honestly, as a spectator sport, it's fucking terrible. The lightings too. Army in a cluster is impossible to gauge how big it actually is. Helions going over creeps seem almost like a ninja, I had to squint my eyes several times to just spot them. There's just no individual unit's differentiation between one another. SCVs can hide under Thors (lol wtf?). If medics could blend in among marines to make muta sniping impossible, even I would admit that is some terrible imbalance.
Also, AI is too smart, making mistakes less occurring but from a spectator's point of view, not interesting. In BW, we'll go "aww fuck, he forgot to order the scvs to mine" or "he left out a control group of medics!". In sc2, with automining and one control-group for everything philosophy, all these can't happen, which kind of reduces the exciting feeling of how intense games can get. Imagine someone who went BBS and due to microing his marines, he forgot to place his main's SCVs for mining. That will fuck up his mid-late game if his rush failed (throwing aside the issue of BBS failing -> more or less game is lost), and that puts us on the edge of the seat. SC2? None.
Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
Another thing: there seems to be a lack of army/unit sounds, which really brings out the game. For example, hearing scan + stim + marines, lings and lurkers dying was so good to hear. Vessels being dropped was one of my favourite sounds, along with the sound of siege tanks. All these seem to have vanished in SC2.
I tried real hard to get into SC2 watching, but right now, it's just a painful sight.
I agree 100% with your opinion and that SC2 is definitely not as engaging and entertaining as SC1 was from a spectator point of view, but at the same time I can't help but feel that the BW ship has set sail and is slowly dying; hence regardless of how much it may be a bore we're stuck with it. (I'm sure a lot of people can agree with this).
That being said I'm completely willing to eat my words (much to my glee) and watch another dozen OSL/MSLs and a couple more Proleagues..
You did not talk about the protoss, where Zealot's "my life for aiur" has been totally fucked up. The old one and new one have significant differences. Dragoon removed? This is the worst thing ever. And what the fuck are these warp fucking gates.
The reason why I play Zerg is Zerg is conserved the most.
The biggest thing about watching GSL for me is that the units have different names. I know what is what now but honestly, having Firebear as a Marauder is just stupid, makes everything too complicated.
Oh and I completely agree about the clusterfuck thing, went out with the UofC StarCraft club and that came up in discussion briefly about how it's just one big clusterfuck and either one player wins right there or they have such a huge advantage they're going to win in the end.
On September 19 2010 15:37 Ndugu wrote: I could never understand how people could watch a glitchy game with n64 graphics and call it a Sport and put it on TV.
To each their own
To be fair, I think a lot of the "wow" stuff is going to have to come in expansions. We just have the basics atm.
Is that because you're abysmally bad and can't interpret what's going on in sc1 or something? I find it hard to believe that you can't see the merit in sc1 as a spectator sport.
On September 19 2010 15:37 Ndugu wrote: I could never understand how people could watch a glitchy game with n64 graphics and call it a Sport and put it on TV.
To each their own
To be fair, I think a lot of the "wow" stuff is going to have to come in expansions. We just have the basics atm.
I wish I didn't agree with you... From the very beginning, SC2 had this feel. And it's depressing, because I wanted it to have the same appeal as SC1. But, it doesn't. You listed a lot of reasons why you didn't enjoy watching pro games, but I think it's more than that. It's a combination of a lot of little problems like the sound is a little bit worse, and the visual clarity is a little bit worse, and dozens of other tiny things. It puts a malaise over the whole game.
On September 19 2010 15:47 NukeTheStars wrote: I wish I didn't agree with you... From the very beginning, SC2 had this feel. And it's depressing, because I wanted it to have the same appeal as SC1. But, it doesn't. You listed a lot of reasons why you didn't enjoy watching pro games, but I think it's more than that. It's a combination of a lot of little problems like the sound is a little bit worse, and the visual clarity is a little bit worse, and dozens of other tiny things. It puts a malaise over the whole game.
a little bit worse?
nah, i think it's like WAY much worse. even worse than warcraft 3.
You forgot to mention the smartcast. Perfect storms à la Jangbi ? Irradiate a defiler with a vessel slaloming between scourges into instant consume swarm / plague ? Wait wat, there are no scourge no defiler, only boring units
And I totally agree about all the lights and graphical effects, it's impossible to see anything in this clusterfuck. I was a big war2 fan, and I hated war3 for this reason as well.
Nothing that hasn't already been said, but I do agree with the OP. I too have tried as well to get into it. But I just can't, I fell asleep the last time I tuned in to the GSL T_T To me, SC2 feels like cricket (no offense to cricket lovers, I'm also not saying cricket is easy lol), it's okay to play when you're batting or bowling, but it is too boring to watch.
On September 19 2010 15:51 endy wrote: You forgot to mention the smartcast. Perfect storms à la Jangbi ? Irradiate a defiler with a vessel slaloming between scourges into instant consume swarm / plague ? Wait wat, there are no scourge no defiler, only boring units
And I totally agree about all the lights and graphical effects, it's impossible to see anything in this clusterfuck. I was a big war2 fan, and I hated war3 for this reason as well.
lol how did i miss that, smartcast too. which was what made Nada's yamato cloning epic. Made Jangbi's storms epic. Made corsair/reaver epic.
I'm positive SC2 can give the same feelings, it just needs a good year I guess to get fully polished and fast and dramatic enough for tv.
It's already pretty decent when you see Rainbow go at it in GSL, he just eviscerates people. Besides the current ex pros playing it are far from S class and were just as boring to watch play in SC1... Tester anyone =[ ?
I've liked what I've seen of SC2, at least streamed. I've had no chance to see a live event. Of course, I'm a poor player, so perhaps it takes less to impress me?
On the whole I'm willing - for now - to attribute the weaknesses of the game to lack of player and strategic development: even with the beta, the game simply hasn't been out for long and we have no idea how close we are to a semi-final balance patch (a truly final patch will have to wait a couple years). There are also several "styles" or techniques that I have yet to see (re)develop in SC2. The causes, I'll (mostly) leave to others to determine, but here they are:
- Viable harass-based play. Harass is currently a part of most strategies but a defining trait of no players or strategies (that I know of). - Standardization drop play. Of course this was going to fall off a little with Colossi and Reapers, but tanks still don't jump. - Multi-base play. The blame usually gets placed on the maps, but I'm also inclined to blame lack of experience with the game and developing safe timings.
While I don't find it hard to tell units apart, I do find it very difficult to get a good estimate on numerically. You could easily eyeball "that's about six goliaths" without even paying much attention, and you might have missed one. Here, it's "That's about... some? marauders." Again, this could be experience or it could be a problem with the game, but it's the only major one from my perspective at this point.
On September 19 2010 15:33 konadora wrote: Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
i agree with everything kind of except this. I think you have it backwards cuz there's nothing more entertaining then watching standing marines slowly fall apart after psi blades slice through them.
I felt the same way you did when I first started watching streams in the beta months ago but once you get used to the visuals its perfectly fine. I think ur just being stubborn ^_^
Defiantly agree with you on the unit sounds. I especially miss the awesome sound mass hydras made when they attacked; it went from being this really cool squirting noise in sc1 to a little pffft kind of noise in sc2. It just isn’t as manly.
On September 19 2010 15:47 NukeTheStars wrote: I wish I didn't agree with you... From the very beginning, SC2 had this feel. And it's depressing, because I wanted it to have the same appeal as SC1. But, it doesn't. You listed a lot of reasons why you didn't enjoy watching pro games, but I think it's more than that. It's a combination of a lot of little problems like the sound is a little bit worse, and the visual clarity is a little bit worse, and dozens of other tiny things. It puts a malaise over the whole game.
a little bit worse?
nah, i think it's like WAY much worse. even worse than warcraft 3.
GSL isn't entertaining in the least. It won't get entertaining for a few more rounds, still weeding out the crap (doesn't help that a lot of the good players have been eliminated through various means).
Watching TaKe's homestory cup was one of the most enjoyable viewing experiences I've had. I've come to the conclusion that as far as esports goes, SC2 isn't going to be a korean only thing - the rest of the world is just as competitive - if not more so. Tournaments like the GSL will suck because you are only looking at a handful of good players and a field of scrubs - like the ESL viking cup - it only gets interesting in the later rounds.
Wait until some really big drawn out international tournaments happen, and then we'll see what this game can really do.
oh and re: the one big battle comment, go watch the demuslim vs brat_ok series from the homestory cup and that myth is completely busted.
I dont disagree with you, but come on, let it go. The move to a more eye-candy game is unavoidable. This is the industry standard now. You can not expect Blizzard to make unit plain and simple(graphic wise) as a game released in 1998. One more thing, every company has to make profit. If they make the game too hard to pick up for new users(which is the majority of SC2 population rightnow) there sales will drop and Blizzard dont want that to happen. Really, for us SC1 players since the beginning of time. Blizzard may just update the visual on SC1 a little bit and call it SC2 we still are very happy. SC2 has its flaws, but its still the best RTS in the current-gen(nothing can compare to SC:BW) I dont see any games that can beat SC2 anytime soon. And, its good to have you back on TL, now where is my Anime related stuff? :D
EPT
