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On September 19 2010 15:33 konadora wrote:
Yes, clusterfuck, it's been mentioned a billion times already. But honestly, as a spectator sport, it's fucking terrible. The lightings too. Army in a cluster is impossible to gauge how big it actually is. Helions going over creeps seem almost like a ninja, I had to squint my eyes several times to just spot them. There's just no individual unit's differentiation between one another. SCVs can hide under Thors (lol wtf?). If medics could blend in among marines to make muta sniping impossible, even I would admit that is some terrible imbalance.
oh god. try watching the lq eng stream and seeing zerglings on creep. is the most overcompressed garbage. anyways at least units in this game dont have auras and crap though. Hopefully it will only get better though. when i first started watching sc i had no idea what the disruption web was and what plague did. stuff like that wasnt exactly intuitive to spectators either.
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Totally agree with Kona here, though I havent even played SC2. The spectate/observing part is quite stale, its just not as explosive or exciting as BW. Watching WC3 was more enjoyable then this.
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On September 19 2010 16:52 ShaperofDreams wrote:
do you think you would enjoy sc1 as a spectator sport in its first year? it was just rofl bad.
To be honest the level of play in SC2 during his first months (aka right now) is about 3 billion times superior to what it was for SC1, so I feel like that comparison isn't exactly fair either.
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There's definitely not enough holy crap moments. There are HUGE comebacks that make you go wtf, but in general there's no unit like the lurker or spider mine that make you go HOLY CRAP. =\
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Canada5565 Posts
On September 19 2010 16:44 konadora wrote:
it's not about the content, it's about the how the game is delivered through its graphics and physics engine and whatever not.
The graphics and physics engines are fine, but the way the game is delivered as a spectator sport by the players is not, because everyone is still horrible at the game. Another reason why it can be less than fun to watch is because the maps are atrocious.
I do agree about the unit sounds and death animations though. And I don't like some of the new units.
Ah, I better stop before I turn this into a rant.
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i agree with your op entirely
however i feel the game will pick up when truly talented people make the transition, not to knock on our current group of recruits!
the game isn't being pushed to anywhere near its limits yet
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I'm happily willing to give SC2 the benefit of the doubt because of the fact that it came out so recently, making it understandable that the level of play is just amateurish compared to BW, and that the maps are all a bit too small for my tastes. That kind of stuff will be fixed with time and experience.
However, the issue with visual clarity is definitely one of the biggest reasons for why I haven't been able to get into SC2 yet, and I'm not sure how easily this can be fixed - the clumping is just that much more severe in 3D, and in most games I play or watch there's definitely a, "... I have no idea how many Zerglings there are in that" or "eh... that's 7 Marauders? No wait, 8. 9." kind of feeling that *might* be fixed by giving units slightly larger displacement sizes so they don't stack/clump so much, but I don't think that's gonna happen. That may just be something inherent in the 3D engine, I think.
Still, it seems many people are able to get past this point and are enjoying the game, so props to them, but it's just not happening for me yet.
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From the perspective of someone who hasn't played Sc1 since a year after BroodWar first came out, I gotta say I find Sc2 a lot more compelling and exciting. I think in the end a lot of it comes down to familiarity. I play Sc2 and not Sc1 so I find it a lot more interesting.
If you compare it to sports it would be like asking a diehard Soccer fan to suddenly start watching Rugby, of course they're not going to enjoy it as much because they have an intimate understanding of Soccer and probably understand lots of stuff in games that would wash over most people's heads.
I really hope both games stay alive and well, as there are clearly lots of people who enjoy both.
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I agree with you entirely. Even the "good" games in GSL thus far have been a complete bore when compared to good BW games. I can't really explain how I feel about it, but even when I'm watching a game that's apparently on the razor's edge in who will be the victor, there is absolutely no intensity in the feel of the game. The only game I've even been slightly on my seat for in the last several GSL matches was the most recent Tester PvP match, and that just had a hilariously bad end to it.
That's not to say that it won't eventually get good. If Boxer and other really innovative players manage to tear the game apart piece by piece and show us some amazing trick and feats of micro, it definitely has potential, but I'm not sure anything will ever be as good as watching a mass of MnM die to stop lurkers or the rush you feel as every scarab launches towards a mass of peons.
On another note, I'm not as much of a fan of the GOM English commentary as I use to be. Maybe I'm just feeling nostalgic and miss SDM. 
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Apart from everything else you said Kona~~, the thing that made me the most furious was the fact that units sounds ARE gone. I can't remember how said it but there was a thread or something where they stated that siege tanks in BW had this over-exaggerated sound when they sieged and shot. Although it was a bit exaggerated that's what made it so amazing! Listening to siege tanks siege was one of the best things I loved about Terran, it would just sound so beautiful to my ears.
Don't even get me started on Zerg... sigh sounds are literally fucking gone from that race. The sound on Zerg is just fucking terrible, there's no more epic loudness to them. Like overlords... they had such loud amazing sounds in BW now they just sound like fuck. (I really miss the Overmind for the adviser -.-)
Protoss... Dt's, Stalkers, HT's, Phoenix's sound like they have the same exact terrible fucking voice actor. OH YEAH VOICE ACTORS SUCK IN SC2! One thing I'm happy with is that they kept the same voice actor and sounds for the toss adviser and probes.
Last of all... the music.. just garbage that's all I have to say.
TL:DR - SC2 sounds/music/voice actors are fucking awful.
SLASH END RANT.
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In my opinion, watching B's is more enjoyable than SC2. As its 'new' feel fades, it really loses its value.
Not that being a B is easy, but there are better players in SC2.
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Lets put the graphics and sound aside, when you watch an amateur play Broodwar even as a D player you can spot the distinctions to a pro player immediately. That's why i await the real progamers.
Once the game is more refined i guarantee you that 80% of todays players will fall off the boat. Now you see players in the GSL with like 1control group of units and 2 more for buildings while Tester goes up to 7-8 with crazy high apm. This allone may not win him the game yes, but it is the right fundamentals to go with the evolution of starcraft2.
To give you another example. I saw some players multitask and their minerals and gas skyrocketed to nowhere but they still won. As soon as more pros come over all these players will have to up their level because these are the things a progamer in BW has to refine to the maximum to even be competitive.
I just hope i'm not wrong because SC2 would get very boring very soon.
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Its hard on the eyes, thats true. I can definitely make out what happens when the VOD/stream is super super HD, but in BW you could make shit out even when it was terribly low quality. Disappointing, to say the least.
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Completely agree with you. The cluster fuck and overall game design turns me off the most. I also fail to see how players like boxer could change something that is built into the game design, it's just impossible. Btw yes i thought Bw was very entertaining even in his first year.
It's just overall you don't wan't to start making a game with the mindset of making a balanced e-sport rts.You will end up like now with a lot of boring units. It should be all about the spectators and to have fun using nice unit micro/macro. Balance can come later when the fun is there. But somehow i didn't saw a whoa very nice unit in sc2 yet, all fun units from Bw got deleted
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I just want to add in my 2 cents.
I think your problem is that you want so bad for SC2 to be what SC1 was to you when you were at a younger age. SC1 has been absolutely embedded into you. Your mind is basically rejecting change.
You love every sound, not because that particular sound was so great, but because of your passion for the game.
The new generation of gamers, their first epic RTS is SC2. Everything about sc2 will be en-grained and held to the highest regard, just like it is for the OP & SC1.
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Osaka27146 Posts
I have enjoyed watching streams even in the early going here. As PoP said, the level of play is so much superior to BW. Just watch Grrr....'s OSL victory games if you don't believe me.
What worries me is that I don't see the ceiling for SC2 being anywhere near as high as what BW gave us. I worry that what we see now might be closer to the end than the beginning.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Some of it is fair enough (I dont even play on the Ultra settings, which is what they use to broadcast, its just too busy - I like the game better on medium or lower)...
However:
Also, AI is too smart, making mistakes less occurring but from a spectator's point of view, not interesting. In BW, we'll go "aww fuck, he forgot to order the scvs to mine" or "he left out a control group of medics!". In sc2, with automining and one control-group for everything philosophy, all these can't happen, which kind of reduces the exciting feeling of how intense games can get. Imagine someone who went BBS and due to microing his marines, he forgot to place his main's SCVs for mining. That will fuck up his mid-late game if his rush failed (throwing aside the issue of BBS failing -> more or less game is lost), and that puts us on the edge of the seat. SC2? None.
Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
Meh - I dont think this contributed at all to making BW enjoyable, and if you had actually played the game youd see the AI isnt at all that great... Infact, it can be downright retarded when it comes to pathing around friendly units on hold position or trying to reach a bunker to repair.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 19 2010 19:12 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Some of it is fair enough (I dont even play on the Ultra settings, which is what they use to broadcast, its just too busy - I like the game better on medium or lower)... However: Show nested quote +Also, AI is too smart, making mistakes less occurring but from a spectator's point of view, not interesting. In BW, we'll go "aww fuck, he forgot to order the scvs to mine" or "he left out a control group of medics!". In sc2, with automining and one control-group for everything philosophy, all these can't happen, which kind of reduces the exciting feeling of how intense games can get. Imagine someone who went BBS and due to microing his marines, he forgot to place his main's SCVs for mining. That will fuck up his mid-late game if his rush failed (throwing aside the issue of BBS failing -> more or less game is lost), and that puts us on the edge of the seat. SC2? None.
Also, explosions and death animations feel kinda.. "soft". Compare a marine in BW dying and a marine in SC2 dying. I think you'll get what I mean.
Meh - I dont think this contributed at all to making BW enjoyable, and if you had actually played the game youd see the AI isnt at all that great... Infact, it can be downright retarded when it comes to pathing around friendly units on hold position or trying to reach a bunker to repair.
The pathing around forcefields is down right retarded
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9070 Posts
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
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EPT
