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I don't agree with most of the OP, but a couple of things stood out to me.
I was intrigued by your comments about unit sounds, so I went and rewatched a few BW and SC2 games to see for myself. The result is that I completely agree with you on this point - the sounds are much more varied, louder and clearer in BW, and you can instantly hear what is happening just by listening to the ingame sounds. Even something as simple as Dropships loading and unloading is really clear. In SC2 the sounds are not like this, especially the sounds of units dying seem kind of generic and lacking flavour. Strangely enough, I never even noticed this until you pointed it out =/
Nothing can really be done about the graphics, but I think it would help if the lighting was improved a bit on some maps. It does seem pretty dark at times, especially on maps like Kulas and Metalopolis.
In a broader sense, I think things that make the game exciting for spectators are:
1) when you don't know who's gonna win for a long time (suspense)
2) when the game is building up to a large climactic moment (large battle, key harrass etc)
3) when there is a lot on the line (ie: finals, or a clash between two big name players)
4) when you really care about the result or players (ie: you're a fanboy)
In return, things which make the game boring or uninteresting for spectators:
1) when it's really obvious early in the game who will win
2) when both players are just sitting there making units and not attacking/doing anything
3) there is not a lot on the line
4) noone really cares about the result of the game or the players involved
Obviously, at this stage of the GSL we're not going to get much excitement from point 3 because we're in the early rounds of the tournament, or from point 4 because the game hasn't been around long enough for players to develop a dedicated group of fans. If you're finding the games boring, I think it has to do more with points 1 and 2. There have been some fantastic games, for example, when Tester got proxied in that game on Metalopolis, it was an intense moment because we were all waiting to see if he would even be able to scout it, let alone hold it with some amazing micro. Another good game I can think of was a TvT on Scrap Station (I think it was AugustWerra in Ro32) where there were a lot of drops and back and forth play, with both players trading the lead several times before the outcome was decided.
Unfortunately, there have also been a lot of rather uninspiring games. Games where one player has a clear advantage but just macros up and eventually delivers one crushing blow are not very exciting, whether it be BW or SC2. It does seem that so far we have seen a lot more of these games in the GSL, but to be honest I don't think there is much excitement in watching Flash clinically destroy some newcomer in a proleague match either. Hopefully we will see games with more suspense and climactic moments as the tournament progresses.
As a final thought, when I look back over the games so far it seems that a lot of the "memorable" moments have come from Baneling use and Forcefield use, especially the former. Burrowed Banelings, Baneling drops, Banelings in large numbers wrecking buildings, Banelings surrounding and blowing up huge armies..they definitely seem to be worth more in entertainment value for spectators than most of the other new units. I feel that this is the closest thing to a Lurker or Spider Mine that we have at the moment, but there is definitely potential for others to develop.
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United States22883 Posts
I really can't agree. SC2 isn't at the level BW has been for me in the past, because the level of play is lower, but I can't really watch BW anymore without wishing it was SC2.
I stopped trying to quantify what excites me in each game long ago. I just know that BW really is an ugly looking game next to SC2 and the clumping doesn't bother me.
ll
Comparing anything based on GSL is a mistake. GSL has not been good.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote:
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
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On September 19 2010 20:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote:
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport. What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over.
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On September 19 2010 20:03 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 20:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote:
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport. What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/ Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over.
Try to watch BW in its early days. Its boring as hell back then.
SC2 is no where as good as SC:BW. I dont think we need to argue about this fact anymore.
But as a next main-game of E-sport. SC2 can do fine.
Please do not compare high level SC:BW games(which take many year to develop to its current level) with SC2(still in its infancy).
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9071 Posts
On September 19 2010 20:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote:
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport. What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/
well, in SC2 zerg actually camps to get maxed out... SC1 just feels a lot more dynamic for me as a spectator. The main difference is the zerg
Also, comparing the early days of Sc1 with the current state of SC2 is rubbish
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On September 19 2010 20:16 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 20:03 mdb wrote:On September 19 2010 20:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote:
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport. What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/ Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over. Try to watch BW in its early days. Its boring as hell back then. SC2 is no where as good as SC:BW. I dont think we need to argue about this fact anymore. But as a next main-game of E-sport. SC2 can do fine. Please do not compare high level SC:BW games(which take many year to develop to its current level) with SC2(still in its infancy).
I follow BW even before BW and I`m still hooked. Even that by today standarts games back then are bad, they were extremely entertaining.
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I can understand some of the points you make since I used to feel the same way, but I mostly disagree nonetheless.
First of all Jinro is right esp. with two things - medium/low settings give a clearer vision of what's going on and wth, someone forgetting to send his SCVs to mining is not what BW made great even in the slightest imho.
Also I dont know how it is in korean version, but slicing up marines with DTs looks pretty damn brutal. Just like it should.
I think the "two huge blobs attack each other and who comes ahead is the victor of the game" really isn't true anymore, have you watched BratOK's TvP for example? The way in which he dismantles his opponents in all the things that are not main army battles is amazing, even though it's also painful for me to watch as a protoss player :p
Socke's PvT also has a lot of "wow"-moments. When demuslim plays I often think "damn, sick micro"
Overall the battles are indeed not as exciting to watch yet as in bw and there still are a lot of two blob-battles that look a bit boring and there's not as many woah-moments like reapershots,hold lurkers but there's lots of exceptions. at IEM in cologne the crowd went wild every time there'd be a big confrontation of baneling muta ling vs tank+mmm, not any less exciting whatsoever than lurker ling vs mm if not more imo (in average).
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I feel the same way. As a game sc2 isn't bad, but as a spectator sport I just can't take it. I too tried watching GSL a few times, but kept getting bored from the blob vs blob play.
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KONA, I so AGREE with you on this! I have been following BW for a long time, watching most OSL/MSL finals and the PL. I was first excited about the prospect of watching both BW and SC2 at the same time, but... I just could not get into the GSL at all! Most matches managed to bore me to sleep halfway through.
The problems were very glaring. First and foremost, the badly-designed maps. Too dark, too lacking of an identity (BW maps all had an identity to them, unique battlefields that offered myriad strategies), and limited opportunities. What I am speaking of, is one-base play, macro-ing up and only pushing "clusterfuck" units against each other towards the end of each game. What happened to harrass, timing pushes, and in the beauty of BW, "smartcasts"? (Quoting another person... perfect storms, plaguuuuu, swarms.... etc.)
The graphics were too unintelligible to tell each unit apart, and to see what the f*ck was going on. From what I saw of SC2, most units were spider-isque in design (say hello to eight-legged freaks). No "ooooohhh, those lurkers are ambushing the marines!", but rather, one big macro battle determining the victor near the end of each SC2 game. Sure, there were occassional flashes of brilliance, but even those were not too exciting to watch. Units were dying WAY too fast.
I could go on and on about the deficiencies of SC2 as a spectator sport, but that would make up almost an essay in itself. I wanted to give SC2 a chance, but without the enthusiastic commentary made famous by BW Korean casters, I could never feel emotion watching it. That, and the current Kespa-Gretech thing, and SC2 only gives me a bad taste in my mouth.
Maybe, if future patches improve SC2, it may become more watchable to me. But I doubt it will ever reach the pinnacle of greatness that BW was, and always will be, in Esports.
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France2061 Posts
I agree in large part, especially with the issues of visual clarity and sound. 3D is pretty bad for this kind of game, it makes everything faded and hazy, even on lower settings. Events lack the clarity and impact they had in BW. Combine that with the muted, more "realistic" sound effects and you have much more dull-looking battles.
As for the gameplay itself, I do think it'll improve as people have been saying, but I don't see anything as sexy as muta micro or shuttle/reaver micro or vulture minelaying ever appearing. And that's why I think sc2 can give off the impression of nothing happening until the big blob clash, even if there are smaller battles. BW just felt more busy, with the muta harrassment phases, vultures vs. dragoons, lurkers... Vultures pushing back dragoons with mines; mutalisks dismantling a base with surgical micro; a reaver pulling off some mad scarabs; mnm vs lurker positioning and repositioning. All these very exciting small-scale engagements happen in the midgame,before any big battles, and there's nothing in sc2 that compares to them.
Basically, the most exciting units and abilities of BW have been removed from the game. What made them exciting was that they were imba, but difficult to use. Now autocasting and smarter AI has forced Blizzard to weaken many abilities.
Also, balance issues aside, marauders are horrible units. They're fast (stimmed), they're powerful and they can take a huge amount of punishment. Whenever marauders are on the scene, especially stimmed, it's like every other unit becomes a joke (aside from air obviously): formidable siege tank lines? Lol stim, rush in and blow em to pieces. In BW vultures vs unsupported siege tanks required sweet micro. Ur main? Lol drop and kill it in two seconds. In BW cracklings and marines were weak, so you had to use micro for mnm drops, running around lurkers/swarms, and cracklings generally failed without swarm, unless you were hitting a completely undefended expo. In sc2 marauders laugh at everything on the ground. Hell, they'd survive 5 lurker spines if lurkers were in the game.
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On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote:
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport.
This 200/200 clash is due to players these days not confident in their micro to win with smaller armies. Months from now when we see these pro-teams practicing for 12+ hours daily is when we will start seeing those small battles like in brood war. Also, not everyone who is at the top of sc2 has crazy 350+ apm like the pro's in Proleague.
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agree with Kona totally
+ Show Spoiler +some kind of filter in calendar to removeSC2 events would be nice <3
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 19 2010 20:03 mdb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 20:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On September 19 2010 19:27 disciple wrote:
I'm with you, kona. Especially on the big army thing and the fact you cant tell the units apart. SC2 as a spectators sport, feels very american - long periods of nothing thrilling happening and then BAAM - very intense and hard to contemplate melee in one big battle. Its like "argh both players are 200/200, lasers, forcefields, rockets, guts and blood EVERYWHERE". So basically yeah, SC2 is an american sport. What? Theres just as much happening in most sc2 matchups as in sc1 :/ Maybe from a top level player point of view.But for me, the feeling i get from watching SC2 is exactly how disciple described it - nothing, nothing, nothing and then BOOM and its over.
Thats mostly cause theres a bunch of gigantic mismatches in the GSL tho -.- Any close TvT is going to have at least as much happening as an SC1 TvT, same with TvP. TvZ it depends I guess, watching a Terran turtle until 200/200 with 3-3 upgrades is about as fun in sc2 as in sc1.
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When I "watch" sc2 I usually leave the sound on in the background while I do something else so I know the results :p Agreed, a lot of sc2 matches just aren't fun/is difficult to watch for me. But then again, I groan when there's a ZvZ or TvT with two B-Teamers in STX masters or something.
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the only sc2 i watched was Idra vs the nuking terran in the 1st round of the GSL.
shit died too fast.. and a side note, the observer was terrible >_>
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You can't watch one game and expect to draw reasonable conclusions >_> The first time I watched BW it seemed confusing and slow, too. It's not magic.
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
i didn't say one game
and i watched streams during beta too
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YES! I feel exactly the same way. I love playing SC2, so I decided to watch some on hd's channel, but its just terrible. I can't do it, the units kind of all look the same, the lighting is terrible on night maps. Its just not a spectator sport
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5003 Posts
Wow, so many staunch defenders of SC2 pop up, all trying to find excuses =(
There are games that are just hard to watch, and I think SC2 is one of them. The 3D is rather disorienting when you're watching the game as a spectator. I don't think Kona said much about the players playing, just the game mechanics/graphics instead.
But one thing -- I think the SC2 version played on TV atm is the Korean censored version, so they did nerf down a lot of the death graphics.
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EPT
