Can you have a computer game without flaws? It's something which interests me a lot, but currently I'm doubting it.
This blog was partly inspired by Yahtzee's video reviews: LINK
He's a hardcore gamer who mostly slags off games for being uncreative/not very good, but does it with fair amount of wit, and funny pictures.
What's also interesting is that even with some of the games he thinks are great, such as Shadow of the Colossus and Prince of Persia: the sands of time, he still finds glaring flaws.
I basically feel the same. If I look at the very best games I've played - my absolute favourites, there is still lots of stuff which clearly isn't up to scratch. To give four examples:
Final Fantasy 7: Despite all it's glories, the dialogue is often badly written. Some interactive events are badly presented and frustrating: such as getting in line at the parade, or trying to resuscitate the girl in Junon. Combat is repetitive and imbalanced.
Starcraft Brood war: Single player is often samey and uninspired. Even though I love the multiplayer (of course), it's disappointing how unplayable some units are- in particular Scouts.
Shadow of the Colossus - the first time I've felt a computer game can actually approach art, but suffers from a few boring collusi, awkward camera angles, occasionally sucky controls, and a slightly too obtuse story.
Nethack: Although it's meant to be frustrating, sometimes it's just too frustrating. Again, this is part of the point, and hard to argue with, but it just doesn't feel perfect. Maybe you want to ignore this example when writing back.
Now my point isn't that these games aren't great - of course they are! I love them. But in other fields, such as literature,music or film, I often get the feeling I've experienced something perfect. I would not change one note of Sibelius's 5th Symphony. I love every line and sound in Radiohead's Wolf at the Door. I simply can't find fault with Hesse's The Glass Bead Game. Every shot in the first Godfather film feels expertly judged.
Computer games haven't done this kind of thing yet, at least not to my knowledge. You don't have to be at all critical to notice many clear mistakes and flaws in finished games. If there's some perfect game I've missed, please tell me. I think there are three main reasons for this.
1: Gaming is a very new phenomenon. This is the obvious one, so perhaps in the future it will all change. Right now though, the trend seems to be in the opposite direction - as people have argued with SC2's battlenet, there is a trend towards meeting profit margins and hitting the biggest audience, instead of creating something to stand the test of time.
2: Games are huge collaborations. When you have so many people working on one project, the odds of getting gameplay/music/dialogue/story/mechanics/originality/graphics/no bugs all right is quite low. Films suffer from the same problem (maybe this is why I have so few favourite films), but are much shorter, and so can sometimes directly meet what the director hopes for.
3: Following from 2, games need a lot of money. Unless you try for a 2D retro approach, which is actually a cool idea, you will need a large budget. This ties you to your large target audience - even if you are a successful company. Radiohead recently released an album where they let their audience pay what they wanted for it. Can you imagine even the biggest gaming companies doing the same with a big title?
My main hope is in some indie developing genius getting something together, and it being so good it makes it, but even that seems optimistic, as people are more and more drawn to the latest (expensive) technologies.
Thoughts?
Note: if you disagree with my examples of perfection, or think that nothing can be objectively good, or anything along those lines, please PM me, or start a separate thread. What I want to discuss in this blog is whether computer games can reach the heights of other art - not whether there is such a thing as good or bad art, or good or bad games.
EDIT: I've realised I didn't do a very good job of defining perfect, and that that's a tricky topic, so for the sake of this thread I mean I am looking for games which are of such a high standard that they will be:
Played in a 100 years time Be an important part of the life of those who have played it (so not tetris, even though it will probably still be around)
If they exist already (a big crowd is putting forward Baldurs Gate 2, which I'm excited about), cool. If not, do you think they can/will exist?
Gaming is very similar to art, music, film, and literature etc. because it appeals to a broad audience. Within such a broad audience there are myriad tastes; what is perfect to one may not be perfect to another. Therefore, there will never be a universally accepted "perfect" game. Sure, there will be what many may consider to be very good ones, but there will never be a "perfect" one in a sense that no one can find a single flaw.
Reading your post there is only one solution to finding a game that will fit your taste specifically. It will address every need you have when you search a game that will suit you. But this might be a time consuming and a arduous task.
The solution is to simply make your own game. You know what you want, you know what kind of plot, music, charachters, action suit your personality. Combine all those elements, learn how to make games ( through programs that I dont even know) compile it, and play it yourself. Again, this game is probably not going to suit a 'wide audience' because your probably not going to make this game intended to suit other people's needs/interests.
That is probably the only solution I see cause honestly, no game you will find made by any creator will suit you perfectly without any drawbacks unless the creator is yourself.
I dont know a whole lot about 'the perfect game'; for me that is, and will always be SC:BW, but i'd like to thank you for directing me to the site in your link. So awesome haha.
What do you consider as flaws? Making the game without technical flaws would be relatively easy, the more simplistic the game the more easy it would be to achieve such a goal. But would such game be fun? Would such game be challenging? I doubt it, the game has to hold a certain degree of complexity for it to be fun, and the more complex the game the more difficult it becomes to have it technically flawless. So no i don't think it is possible to create perfect game that would both be extremely good and technically flawless.
I believe that the technology is there to make a perfect game, and it could be made if you had the right people with unlimited resources and with no interest in making profit, just a single goal to make a perfect game.
But i cant figure out what genre the game should be based on, but what im sure about is that the perfect game should allow the player to experience unlimited freedom, the ultimate sandbox... So i think it should be an mmorpg because this genre has the capability of creating a word that a player can experience through his character, allowing to make his own adventure with other individuals, possibility to shape the world and change the way things work. I kind of thing of an eve-online as i write this because i believe that game has the right fundamentals to this perfect game, however its far from perfect.
I'm afraid that RTS genre is out of the question because it can only be perfect technically, but thats it. ...I don't really know how to put this, but starcraft is technical, logical and challenging, and that's great, thats what rts games should be like. But there are things that you could never experience through rts games, and thus it can't be perfect. I hope you get what i mean.
On August 18 2010 14:14 deth wrote: For what it was, I thought Yahtzee's 2nd game was perfect in its genre/own way..
Apart from that, KotOR 1 was pretty close to perfect.
KOTOR was simply amazing, but I honestly have to give it to Baldur's Gate 2. First thing I thought of when I saw the title was that, and the first two posts were about it. That's testament to how purely awesome it is. I'm only really giving it to BG2 because KOTOR is too easy to exploit, and becomes a cake walk. I personally like the story so it's worth it anyway, but just not as fun.
I haven't played Baldurs gate 2, so I'll have to get that. Apparently it's available with the expansion pack on Amazon for £10. Come to think of it, is it old enough that it can be downloaded from anywhere legally? I'm in China, so otherwise won't be able to play it for a while. I have windows 7.
Shadesofkarma - This is kind of the side discussion I wanted to avoid, but there is enough critical consensus over hundreds of years across all the worlds cultures that Mozart/Bach/Beethoven/Shakespeare/Tolstoy are really rather good, with their best work as close to perfection as mankind is going to manage. I just want the gaming equivalent, even at a lower level, where there aren't many clear flaws in a game to even a casual player.
Rickson- I've been able to find much music and literature, as well as a handful of films which I'd consider perfect, or at least 'good enough', so I don't see why it's impossible for a game, though as my post shows, I have doubts. In a similar vein, even though I know what I want is material like 'War and Peace', that doesn't mean I can create it myself. In fact, I almost certainly cannot.
Skvid - a flaw is something that clearly detracts from the game. For example, bad dialogue/storytelling/mechanics/bugs/imbalances. Just making a game which runs smoothly isn't enough - it also has to be inspired.
So yes, increased complexity will make this harder to achieve.
On August 18 2010 14:16 n.DieJokes wrote: tetris is perfect
I have to agree with this... Albeit I feel the OP is asking for something more artful and epic Something that's both creative, epic, and helluva-fun. Like Bioshock, maybe? Far from perfect, but damn good.
Edit:
I'll go on to say I don't think there has yet been a perfect game. But there have been a few that were pretty darn close.
Half Life 1 and 2, in my opinion, probably come the closest...
I haven't played Baldurs gate 2, so I'll have to get that. Apparently it's available with the expansion pack on Amazon for £10. Come to think of it, is it old enough that it can be downloaded from anywhere legally? I'm in China, so otherwise won't be able to play it for a while. I have windows 7.
Shadesofkarma - This is kind of the side discussion I wanted to avoid, but there is enough critical consensus over hundreds of years across all the worlds cultures that Mozart/Bach/Beethoven/Shakespeare/Tolstoy are really rather good, with their best work as close to perfection as mankind is going to manage. I just want the gaming equivalent, even at a lower level, where there aren't many clear flaws in a game to even a casual player.
Rickson- I've been able to find much music and literature, as well as a handful of films which I'd consider perfect, or at least 'good enough', so I don't see why it's impossible for a game, though as my post shows, I have doubts. In a similar vein, even though I know what I want is material like 'War and Peace', that doesn't mean I can create it myself. In fact, I almost certainly cannot.
It can be downloaded from a ton of places, but I really doubt legally. That might take some looking into. Either way, you won't be disappointed with it, it's a great play.
On August 18 2010 14:16 n.DieJokes wrote: tetris is perfect
I have to agree with this... Albeit I feel the OP is asking for something more artful and epic Something that's both creative, epic, and helluva-fun. Like Bioshock, maybe? Far from perfect, but damn good.
That's another iffy one, just because it's hit or miss. Personally, I loved Bioshock, but both of my brothers, who usually have the same tastes as I do in games, hated it.
On August 18 2010 13:32 nttea wrote: I'd consider Baldurs gate 2 to be the most "perfect" game i've ever played, don't think you can get any closer than that imo.
How about baldurs gate 1? It's way less linear and 2-3 times more captivating. Baldurs gate 2 is amazing, but the original still holds my heart. Actually now that I think about it baldurs gate 2 is pretty damn good. okay. whatever.
On August 18 2010 14:21 Tal wrote: Thanks for the replies everyone.
I haven't played Baldurs gate 2, so I'll have to get that. Apparently it's available with the expansion pack on Amazon for £10. Come to think of it, is it old enough that it can be downloaded from anywhere legally? I'm in China, so otherwise won't be able to play it for a while. I have windows 7.
Shadesofkarma - This is kind of the side discussion I wanted to avoid, but there is enough critical consensus over hundreds of years across all the worlds cultures that Mozart/Bach/Beethoven/Shakespeare/Tolstoy are really rather good, with their best work as close to perfection as mankind is going to manage. I just want the gaming equivalent, even at a lower level, where there aren't many clear flaws in a game to even a casual player.
Rickson- I've been able to find much music and literature, as well as a handful of films which I'd consider perfect, or at least 'good enough', so I don't see why it's impossible for a game, though as my post shows, I have doubts. In a similar vein, even though I know what I want is material like 'War and Peace', that doesn't mean I can create it myself. In fact, I almost certainly cannot.
Really? You have found a 'handful' of literature and music that suits you 100% in every element and detail? If that is the case then with all respect given, you are somebody that is relatively easier to 'please' or lets say 'satisfy' than most people which in a sense could be a god thing! Picky people are not good! Aha! There are definately music/ literature/ art that definatley 'suit' people and is very satisfying but I have rarely if not at all found a movie or a book or a piece of art that I have not found even the slightest conflict or something that I dont like. But anyways that could just be me as person who is very specific and picky...but then again everybody is picky in some way or another.
Anyways here are some games that I've played personally, thought they were pretty good and might be 'good enough' for you.
Age of empires - Lots of serious thought and strategetical approaches that make this game very entertaining. Has its drawbacks but relatively fun. Starcraft- For obvious reasons Final Fantasy (7 is my fav) - very entertaining plot line, kinda gets repetitive with fights but nevertheless very fun. Console games: Wii is very fun but you kinda get bored of it after.
Anyways I'll PM you with another list after i've done more thinking about some games that I have played that you might like!
On August 18 2010 13:32 nttea wrote: I'd consider Baldurs gate 2 to be the most "perfect" game i've ever played, don't think you can get any closer than that imo.
How about baldurs gate 1? It's way less linear and 2-3 times more captivating. Baldurs gate 2 is amazing, but the original still holds my heart. Actually now that I think about it baldurs gate 2 is pretty damn good. okay. whatever.
I loved baldurs gate1, but like 99% of games it had issues. Baldurs gate2 however must be one of the hardest games in the world to complain about. I'd say the same with planescape torment as bg1
Something can be perfect and not be your favourite thing. For example, I would say the Godfather is about as close to being a perfect film as one can get - continuously beautiful and captivating. Having said that, I would rather watch Amelie, as it resonates a lot more with my personal life experience, even though it may not be as brilliant a film.
Essentially, what I'm saying is just because stuff doesn't suit someone 100%, doesn't mean they can't see it is perfect/near perfect.
Well for me its Fallout2, and my first playthrough of that game was in 2006 if that says anything
Anyway nobody can deny the trend that the games are becoming progressively worse as the time goes by, and what worries me most is that the majority of the market doesn't even get it, shitty games appear to be good to them. This really worries me, besides starcraft2 i can't think of the close-to-perfect game ive played in the past 4 years.
And what does future holds for us? I have my hopes up for mafia 2 as it seemed to live up to its predecessor when i played through the demo, it has the potential of being the best gta'esque game made. (mafia1 is currently my favorite at this genre)
Guild wars 2 is likely to be good at what it will offer. It will likely be better than its predeccesor
Diablo 3 has the potential to turn out to be the perfect game for me because from what i\ve seen it has everything i enjoy in a computer game.
I've realised I didn't do a very good job of defining perfect, and that that's a tricky topic, so for the sake of this thread I mean I am looking for games which are of such a high standard that they will be:
Played in a 100 years time Be an important part of the life of those who have played it (so not tetris, even though it will probably still be around)
If they exist already (a big crowd is putting forward Baldurs Gate 2, which I'm excited about), cool. If not, do you think they can/will exist?
I think video games are a different type of art. Tetris was a great example of a perfect game. It doesn't need a back story, voice acting, cutscenes or great graphics. It's a game. You play it and enjoy it. It's easy to play but hard to be really good at.
I think that's what makes a great game and I think a game like Tetris should be considered art.
Games like MW2 or SC2 steer more towards "guided experience" than being just a game... This prevents them from becoming timeless like Tetris. I get bored of newer games once the "experience" runs out. This is by design because they want you to buy the new experience. With Tetris... that never really happens because you're just playing with the game like you'd play with a toy.
I'm finding it hard to explain exactly what I mean but hopefully people get where I'm coming from...
The artwork and music in a game can be art on it's own also which is another thing to consider. + Show Spoiler +
Is a video game as art a combination of gameplay, music and how it is presented? Or simply how it plays?
I love video games but sadly the mainstream developers are producing hollywood style rubbish I could never consider good, let alone see them as art.
At least Nintendo hasn't completely lost their way
A very interesting topic. As far as single player story telling goes I consider Betrayal at Krondor to be the all time best. It also has an amazingly open world for when it came out and there are lots of puzzles/riddles along with the rpg elements. What makes it so amazing is that not only is it based on Raymond E Feist's novels, but that Feist himself wrote the game. Most games simply don't have published author level people working on them and it really shows when you examine the stories.
I think the time thing is most critical. Other arts have been around for many generations, which means you have people growing up inspired by people that grew up inspired by people that grew up (and on and on) totally immersed in that artform. For computer games we're on basically only the second generation, and the first one was games like pong.
People in other arts you talk about like Mozart and Shakespeare had thousands of years of development of their art to learn from and build on when they came along. It may be completely unreasonable to be looking for such high art in computer games at this stage.
The games I had the most fun with, that felt most complete to me were probably the ones by Miyamoto (especially Mario 64 and Zelda: OOT).
I feel there could've been a lot of really good older games very close to perfection if it weren't for the technical limitations of the time and how new the entire scene was when people still cared about the games they made. Maybe these guys are still around but noone is willing to pay what's needed and have the patience to see it through. Just look at how the big publishers are all mass producing mediocre games. Few exceptions seem to be Valve and Blizzard (not so sure about Activision-Blizzard anymore). I would include id Software and Epic in this list but they're more noteworthy for their game engines nowadays (gotta have to wait for Rage, though). Haven't really kept up with the Japanese games but they seem to be suffering from the same things as western games and a trend to be only graphics with maybe one gameplay gimmick and nothing else.
Another major point that i think should be mentioned as to why there are no "perfect" games out is the interactivity that games have. In a painting the artist only has to worry about how it will look to a person just standing there. A game designer has to create game mechanics that can be used in ways that were never intended.
Seems so subjective. With old beloved games such as super mario world I just look back at all the little flaws with affection. To me, that game is perfect.
OP : FF7 : I believe that the dialogs in the japanese version are much better that. Starcraft : Multiplayer is perfect (except that terran is imba :D). Look at Stork's scout micro, you will see how good he is. (forgot which game it was but you can google it)
Otherwise I loved "Omikron : The Nomad Soul." Great plot, great atmosphere, you can roam in the city as you wish, the soundtrack is amazing (composed by Bowie himself). The only bad point is the gameplay during the FPS mode.
Wth some people are talking about Zelda in a computer video games thread
BG1 was superior to BG2 in my opinion , BG2 being more linear especially the expansion pack.BG1 had far more areas to explore.Also in BG1 gold mattered , by the end of BG2 i had tons of gold but nothing to spend it on since i bought all the good stuff with ease.
Many people would disagree with me though since BG1 can be so hard , the first real enemy you face at the friendly arm inn can pretty much one shot you with magic missiles ; compare this to WoW where you're killing rabbits for the first few levels or whatever.
In answer to your question though , the more complex games get the harder it is for them to be perfect.I'm putting forward 'Asteroids' from 1980 , i can't think of any way to improve the game.
At best it would be perfect to an individual, even then I doubt it's possible. Getting some kind of consensus on perfect, impossible from what I've seen. Having some flaws isnt a bad thing imo. I guess if you round off flaws minor enough to not significantly lower your experience, you can approximate it to 0 flaw.
On your point of can it reach the height of other art. I'd say yes, because art is not perfect either.
As for your 100 years definitions..I dont understand why tetris couldn't be that game. Not personally huge on it, but just trying to understand why it couldnt be important to someone. I can see non-plot games like that, or ddr etc to be a huge part of some people's lives.
You can have two games in one with a mod and to be honest even after 10 years it has almost no flaws ( if you like ADD rules ) As for vanilla versions i prefer BG1 story, low level characters + exploration style but BG2 is technically superior, has better fights and banters.
Planescape Torment is the most brillant game ever made but as a game it has a lot of flaws. bugs, rushed content, boring gameplay etc... but the story, universe and dialog are just so ahead of the other games that it doesn't really matter.
My other pick is Deus Ex, just because the gameplay and interaction is so good. Yes it is ugly ( not that ugly if moded ), animation, voices and IA are terrible buuuuuuut:
I just learn about this trick today and i have this game since 2000 LOL
If you are into competitive gaming Broodwar / Quake 3 / CS / Third Strike could be considered as almost perfect.
On August 18 2010 14:59 vek wrote: I think video games are a different type of art. Tetris was a great example of a perfect game. It doesn't need a back story, voice acting, cutscenes or great graphics. It's a game. You play it and enjoy it. It's easy to play but hard to be really good at.
I think that's what makes a great game and I think a game like Tetris should be considered art.
Games like MW2 or SC2 steer more towards "guided experience" than being just a game... This prevents them from becoming timeless like Tetris. I get bored of newer games once the "experience" runs out. This is by design because they want you to buy the new experience. With Tetris... that never really happens because you're just playing with the game like you'd play with a toy.
I'm finding it hard to explain exactly what I mean but hopefully people get where I'm coming from...
The artwork and music in a game can be art on it's own also which is another thing to consider. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghZpyHP7B_g
Is a video game as art a combination of gameplay, music and how it is presented? Or simply how it plays?
I love video games but sadly the mainstream developers are producing hollywood style rubbish I could never consider good, let alone see them as art.
At least Nintendo hasn't completely lost their way
I guess in its own way, Tetris is a kind of art. Perfect in it's simple way - and so perhaps it will be remembered far in the future. What it doesn't do though, is have a big impact on someone's life - it's a lot of fun, but I guess you wouldn't call it profound.
I see the artwork and music as being a part of the experience - it's just not just the gameplay which matters- it's the whole package. And maybe that becomes more of a 'guided experience' as you put it, but that experience seems to have incredible potential for art. I can imagine something along the lines of FF7 or Shadow of the Collosus really being something special. But I'm not sure if it will happen - as you point out, there's a lot of 'holywood style rubbish' about these days.
On August 18 2010 15:04 mucker wrote: A very interesting topic. As far as single player story telling goes I consider Betrayal at Krondor to be the all time best. It also has an amazingly open world for when it came out and there are lots of puzzles/riddles along with the rpg elements. What makes it so amazing is that not only is it based on Raymond E Feist's novels, but that Feist himself wrote the game. Most games simply don't have published author level people working on them and it really shows when you examine the stories.
I think the time thing is most critical. Other arts have been around for many generations, which means you have people growing up inspired by people that grew up inspired by people that grew up (and on and on) totally immersed in that artform. For computer games we're on basically only the second generation, and the first one was games like pong.
People in other arts you talk about like Mozart and Shakespeare had thousands of years of development of their art to learn from and build on when they came along. It may be completely unreasonable to be looking for such high art in computer games at this stage.
Interesting, I'll check that Betrayal at Kondor out. Having a professional author does seem helpful...
Perhaps you're right about looking for too much too early. On the other hand, when an artform is in it's infancy, it's much easier to be creative - take rock music's early days for example. So there's still hope at least.
On August 18 2010 15:14 tricap wrote: Another major point that i think should be mentioned as to why there are no "perfect" games out is the interactivity that games have. In a painting the artist only has to worry about how it will look to a person just standing there. A game designer has to create game mechanics that can be used in ways that were never intended.
The way a painting looks to a person and interacts with their experiences is also kind of a two way process- even if to a lesser extent. But I take your point.
Even if game mechanics are used in unintended ways, this can either improve the game (see starcraft), or be patched if it screws it up.
On August 18 2010 21:06 ironchef wrote: At best it would be perfect to an individual, even then I doubt it's possible. Getting some kind of consensus on perfect, impossible from what I've seen. Having some flaws isnt a bad thing imo. I guess if you round off flaws minor enough to not significantly lower your experience, you can approximate it to 0 flaw.
On your point of can it reach the height of other art. I'd say yes, because art is not perfect either.
As for your 100 years definitions..I dont understand why tetris couldn't be that game. Not personally huge on it, but just trying to understand why it couldnt be important to someone. I can see non-plot games like that, or ddr etc to be a huge part of some people's lives.
There is critical consensus on the greatness of many writers - e.g Shakespeare, Dickens, Hemingway, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky. The same is true of composers: Brahms, Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, etc
And for bands: The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones, Radiohead.
Many of these different artists works (with the possible exception of the bands), look set to endure for hundreds of years - and I'm basically convinced by the critical arguments for why. Perhaps art isn't 'truly perfect' (what is?), but it's heights come close enough for me to feel comfortable using the word.
I think Tetris is great in it's way, but can it really change your life? Does it offer a profound experience? I think that's kind of part of it too...
On August 19 2010 00:03 Tal wrote: I guess in its own way, Tetris is a kind of art. Perfect in it's simple way - and so perhaps it will be remembered far in the future. What it doesn't do though, is have a big impact on someone's life - it's a lot of fun, but I guess you wouldn't call it profound.
I see the artwork and music as being a part of the experience - it's just not just the gameplay which matters- it's the whole package. And maybe that becomes more of a 'guided experience' as you put it, but that experience seems to have incredible potential for art. I can imagine something along the lines of FF7 or Shadow of the Collosus really being something special. But I'm not sure if it will happen - as you point out, there's a lot of 'holywood style rubbish' about these days.
You're putting definitions on 'perfect' that shouldn't really be there. Perfect means something that is flawless at its task; but a perfect hammer is not also a perfect nail. You can't pin down a perfect game as a 'guided experience'; a choose-your-own-adventure book is also a 'guided experience'. 'Having an impact' is even more vague. You're mentioning gameplay, graphics, music, all of that; what does it all add up to? When all is said and done, what is the perfect game perfect at? Can it not be perfect if it isn't profound? But I could always argue that Tetris is profound in a quite different way than SotC. Books, paintings, movies, many of those are very much profound. You're going to need a better definition. In the end, though, it seems fairly obvious that a perfect game will never be made. I think it's more interesting to speculate as to whether developers can make games without obvious flaws (e.g. grinding in RPGs)
Perhaps part of the answer is that it's so easy to dissect elements of a computer game. Since it's made up of so many distinct parts, it's just begging for people who masquerade as 'video game critics' to divide and comment upon. As an aside, this kind of half-assed reviewing just seems kind of silly to me:
Gameplay: 3/5 Story: 2/5 Music: 5/5
Really? So I should buy this game if I love listening to a few good tracks over and over and should just skip through the cutscenes to the kind-of-average gameplay? Thanks for the info, buddy.
In other spheres of art, it's generally take it or leave it. The entire work is presented as a complete piece, which you take in as is. It's much more uncommon to hear "yeah I liked his brushwork overall, but that upper left corner, not so much..."
Another part of it is that a game spans many hours of experience, and may include multiple playthroughs. It's probably normal for an average movie nowadays to cost more than a major computer game, and that's only for a couple hours of passive entertainment. What I'm getting at is somewhere along the line, since less expertise and budget are being allocated over a lot more ground, it's inevitable to get a couple of weaker links somewhere in the chain.
I think you'll find that many of the people who rate games would uprate games with minimal or zero story, simply because there's nothing they can criticize and itsartritelol. Indeed I believe that's one of the more lasting trends nowadays. I would guess that if you are looking for something approaching critical perfection, it would be easier to search among games with minimalist plot/storyline, like most indie-ish games nowadays.
You'd also need a healthy circle of critics. There is such a thing as critical quality, even though I am unable to define it. You could review 10,000 books and 10,000 pieces of music and still be a shitty lit/music critic. However I doubt the same can be said of the state of video game reviews online.
Commercial games are a major undertaking, and so the studios need professionals to create each element and to piece it together. There will be conflicts between what someone envisioned and what is delivered, and loads of compromises are made in the name of cooperation, achieving targets on time, internal politics etc.
Don't forget that in the age of classical music, if I'm not mistaken, famous composers were sponsored by wealthy patrons and royalty to basically just do their thing. They didn't have to meet deadlines and budgets, listen to the ramblings of some nerds online, shove some crap in for ADD-riddled adolescents, and think about saving some shit up for when they owned a studio themselves. They put their heart and soul into their work and never settled for anything less than what they viewed as perfection, something which I doubt many game designers actually do.
On August 19 2010 00:03 Tal wrote: I guess in its own way, Tetris is a kind of art. Perfect in it's simple way - and so perhaps it will be remembered far in the future. What it doesn't do though, is have a big impact on someone's life - it's a lot of fun, but I guess you wouldn't call it profound.
I see the artwork and music as being a part of the experience - it's just not just the gameplay which matters- it's the whole package. And maybe that becomes more of a 'guided experience' as you put it, but that experience seems to have incredible potential for art. I can imagine something along the lines of FF7 or Shadow of the Collosus really being something special. But I'm not sure if it will happen - as you point out, there's a lot of 'holywood style rubbish' about these days.
You're putting definitions on 'perfect' that shouldn't really be there. Perfect means something that is flawless at its task; but a perfect hammer is not also a perfect nail. You can't pin down a perfect game as a 'guided experience'; a choose-your-own-adventure book is also a 'guided experience'. 'Having an impact' is even more vague. You're mentioning gameplay, graphics, music, all of that; what does it all add up to? When all is said and done, what is the perfect game perfect at? Can it not be perfect if it isn't profound? But I could always argue that Tetris is profound in a quite different way than SotC. Books, paintings, movies, many of those are very much profound. You're going to need a better definition. In the end, though, it seems fairly obvious that a perfect game will never be made. I think it's more interesting to speculate as to whether developers can make games without obvious flaws (e.g. grinding in RPGs)
Good point well made. The word perfect actually really doesn't get across what I'm trying to say, so I have to modify it far too much. What I'm actually asking about seems very unclear.
All this talk about BG2 really makes me want to play it. I thought I had, but then I realized that I played BG2 Dark Alliance on Xbox. A great game, but, at least from my understanding, a different one.
Does anyone know where I can get BG2? I don't mind paying for it, but I'd really prefer to download, rather than wait for a disc to come in the mail. =\
I'm not sure about perfect but Cave Story is a games thats pretty perfect for what it was trying to accomplish, and I wouldn't change anything about it.
On August 18 2010 13:32 nttea wrote: I'd consider Baldurs gate 2 to be the most "perfect" game i've ever played, don't think you can get any closer than that imo.
Can i have your babies, please? I mean that... Yes Baldurs gate 2 were the most polishes... Most awesome... Most pretty game. And you can still play it today! (I even got it installed with widescreen patch, running it in high resolution).
Tetris, minesweeper, and such will be the only games that could be considered flawless. Compare them to something like that BG2, surely there's a ton of bugs and minor plot holes if someone really goes looking for it. And you could always try to refine the content, add or remove something, really hard to say what details would make it the best experience possible...
Or SCBW, there's ton of technical issues. Netcode could be much better, there's many many annoying bugs like sprite limitations, flying drone glitches or whatever. On balance and such, who's to say something's perfect, it's mostly subjective in that in the end...
I guess something's perfect in 1 way when you can go to the game designer and he will say, that he wouldn't want to change or further polish anything. But even that doesn't mean everyone will like the game.
Having worked in the video games industry, I can say a "perfect" (I'm assuming you mean a game without technical flaws) game would be impossible to produce within a reasonable time-frame and budget constraint. The last project I worked on, at it's peak had over 16,000 open defects logged in the database. Each of these defects, when fixed, has the possibility of affecting another area of the game, creating even more defects, causing even more work. Combine that with pressure from publishers to meet schedules, and there's some choices that have to be made, and more often than not, that choice is left up to producers, not developers. That's also the reason behind Day 1 patches for nearly every major game release, there are still a huge number of bugs left in the game, they're just the ones that were decided to be least "urgent."
Online games are especially notorious, because when tackling any given issue in game, the number of factors to take into consideration increases exponentially.
That's just technical issues from a QA monkey's PoV.
I don't think the idea of "perfection" is really a good way to measure games...new games are created learning the lessons from previous ones, just like many other entertainment and art forms.
Like a treat or a chocolate - one might taste good, but perhaps another even better one will be created when creators better understand tastebuds, the mind, the chemistry and biology of the ingredients, etc.
And when it comes to "flaws" or parts that you don't enjoy, it's subjective. Unless someday we have AI's creating skinner boxes/games specifically for a particular person's preferences...yikes.
On August 18 2010 13:32 nttea wrote: I'd consider Baldurs gate 2 to be the most "perfect" game i've ever played, don't think you can get any closer than that imo.
Fun blog to read. Nice to see so many BGate fans! Without doubt a damn near perfect single player experience. Still flaws such as too much money, easy thieving etc as mentioned. Hard to not take advantage of this free candy.
A tribute to Baldur's Gate via Starcraft, wut? -->A bit off topic and partial spam: + Show Spoiler +
Been meaning to create a TL.net blog myself about a SC mod that pays tribute to these classic and damn near perfect rpgs, but haven't gotten around to it (nor figured how to create a blog here lol). The mod is called Planar Erratus and if you love BGate, Torment, Arcanum, you'd get a kick out of PEAI and its nostalgia. I'll admit RTS and RPG don't mix too well, but I feel the mod did a good job capturing the D&D atmosphere. While there's plenty of combat involved, you won't win by just building large throw away armies. You'll need to think a bit to break through enemy lines. Anywho.. been a bit busy lately and it has sat idle now for awhile. This might be the first mention of this mod outside the limited exposure of the BWAI forum, but would love to throw some ideas around with some other Bgate fans and respark the flame again.
For all the BG newbs who want to play the full story with patchs and resolution mod. It makes things much more enjoyable. Also skipping BG1 and Tosc would be a shame.
Buy BG1+Tales of the sword coast + BG2 + Throne of Baal Then:
On August 19 2010 10:31 MrBitter wrote: All this talk about BG2 really makes me want to play it. I thought I had, but then I realized that I played BG2 Dark Alliance on Xbox. A great game, but, at least from my understanding, a different one.
Does anyone know where I can get BG2? I don't mind paying for it, but I'd really prefer to download, rather than wait for a disc to come in the mail. =\
there is no legal download available i picked up BG1+expansion+BG2+expansion in one pack for $20 each on its own DVD way better than the 6 CD and 5 CD sets i got with the original games , swapping the discs over was a real pain in the ass
EPT
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