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ZvT Imbalance: How to make a successful thread. - Page 3

Blogs > mahnini
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Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
August 06 2010 15:14 GMT
#41
On August 06 2010 23:47 Happy.fairytail wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 15:46 Lexpar wrote:
On August 06 2010 13:00 tomatriedes wrote:
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.


Thank you. The number of threads by Terran players ridiculing Zerg player for having legitimate complaints is mind boggling.


The problem I have with all these kinds of threads is that they're all just whining. If you wanted to get better, you'd post replays and ask for feedback -- not rage about how the game is stacked against you. Simple as that. Do you want to whine, or do you want to get better?

I really wonder why mods don't automatically close any thread that talks about imba when they don't include replays.


Part of the problem with the match-up is that it's hard to actually do this. There have been some good ZvT 'ideas' or improving on your ZvT threads, but it can only go so far. It's really easy to take a ZvT match and say, "Well if player did x,y,z they'd win" but that doesn't really count for a whole lot. First off playing mechanically better will always help you win, that's fine and good, but it's not really something you need to ask help for. As for the actual strategies a big part of the matchup's problem is that there are so many things a Terran can throw at you and in such flexible ways.
Usually the advice is something that would win that one particular game, but that's completely useless because the next 20 times you play terrans you're going to be seeing completely different stuff that demands completely different style of play.

Without zerg having more ways of restricting Terran options it's really hard to solicit advice on the matchup. By comparison when it's ZvP it's very easy to give advice. ZvP can feel very unfair at times to players, but you see little whining on the matchup and that's why (well also because it's more balanced). It's easy to look at replays or ask for advice, see what you did wrong, then apply it to the next game and actually have it result in some sort of improvement.
Logo
Happy.fairytail
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States327 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 16:20:46
August 06 2010 16:14 GMT
#42
On August 07 2010 00:14 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 23:47 Happy.fairytail wrote:
On August 06 2010 15:46 Lexpar wrote:
On August 06 2010 13:00 tomatriedes wrote:
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.


Thank you. The number of threads by Terran players ridiculing Zerg player for having legitimate complaints is mind boggling.


The problem I have with all these kinds of threads is that they're all just whining. If you wanted to get better, you'd post replays and ask for feedback -- not rage about how the game is stacked against you. Simple as that. Do you want to whine, or do you want to get better?

I really wonder why mods don't automatically close any thread that talks about imba when they don't include replays.


Part of the problem with the match-up is that it's hard to actually do this. There have been some good ZvT 'ideas' or improving on your ZvT threads, but it can only go so far. It's really easy to take a ZvT match and say, "Well if player did x,y,z they'd win" but that doesn't really count for a whole lot. First off playing mechanically better will always help you win, that's fine and good, but it's not really something you need to ask help for. As for the actual strategies a big part of the matchup's problem is that there are so many things a Terran can throw at you and in such flexible ways.
Usually the advice is something that would win that one particular game, but that's completely useless because the next 20 times you play terrans you're going to be seeing completely different stuff that demands completely different style of play.

Without zerg having more ways of restricting Terran options it's really hard to solicit advice on the matchup. By comparison when it's ZvP it's very easy to give advice. ZvP can feel very unfair at times to players, but you see little whining on the matchup and that's why (well also because it's more balanced). It's easy to look at replays or ask for advice, see what you did wrong, then apply it to the next game and actually have it result in some sort of improvement.


I'm not sure what the issue here is -- are you saying it's hard to improve by watching and receiving commentary on your replays? Because Zerg doesn't have initiative in the early game to take control of the game (because almost every Zerg FEs), so there isn't a single build order that lets you dictate the pace of the game 20 times in a row?

In the end, watching and analyzing replays is one of the best and most concrete ways of improving yourself. What do you suggest Zerg do instead?

Let's get to the heart of the issue ... no match up is beyond 45-55 right now, and overall the race win/ratio is within a couple of % of even, according to Blizzard posts. Ultimately, skill is a much higher determinant of whether you win or loss a match. Yes, race may provide you a 5-10% boost in your probability of winning, but the other 90-95%? That's you, and only you are responsible for that 90-95%. So man up, and take responsibilitiy for that 90-95%, and post replays, cuz that's a far better way of upping your win % than posting complaints about imbalance on the forums.
Z3kk
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4099 Posts
August 06 2010 17:44 GMT
#43
On August 06 2010 17:45 Entropic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 16:41 Z3kk wrote:
On August 06 2010 10:31 mahnini wrote:
On August 06 2010 10:29 Entropic wrote:
Are you really a doctor?

indubitably


Technically, "indubitably" shouldn't be used in standard English. Being a doctor, I expect your English to be nigh untouchable

+ Show Spoiler [UNLESS] +
you're Sherlock Holmes


You don't need perfect english to get the phd (specially in hard sciences, math, economics, CS).


I know that. It was part of the terrible, failed joke :C

This thread is pure diamond of the highest rank.
Failure is not falling down over and over again. Failure is refusing to get back up.
talecK
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada35 Posts
August 06 2010 19:17 GMT
#44
mahnini, I love your work. I read this after writing up my "Zerg Tears" Guide and felt like it drew some (perhaps not obvious) parallels. WP sir.
Lemonwalrus
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States5465 Posts
August 06 2010 20:17 GMT
#45
This thread keeps getting worse (My proposition).

Credentials
- Devourer icon
- I've seen/made many bad threads before

Why this thread keeps getting worse
1. People think putting their post in this format will automatically make what they have to say funny.

2. Both mahnini and FragKrag have posted in this thread.

Therefore, this thread is terrible.

My suggestion
- Give me banling status.
- mahnini isn't actually a phd.
GreatFall
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1061 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 23:29:58
August 06 2010 23:28 GMT
#46
Nice a fellow Ph.D. Zerg player. Sense of humor to. very good. Continue -_-
Inventor of the 'Burning Tide' technique to quickly getting Outmatched Crusher achivement :D
Meapak_Ziphh
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6786 Posts
August 29 2010 06:23 GMT
#47
At some point I was reading the comments and couldn't remember whether I was reading a satirical balance thread or a real balance thread, apparently nothing can stop the endless balance discussion
Forti et Fideli ~ TL Mafia Forum: Come play with us! ~ Go Samsung KHAN, Stork, JangBi , Shine, Grape, and TurN Fighting!~ wat
MorningMusume11
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3490 Posts
August 29 2010 06:42 GMT
#48
Can you write my papers for me plz lol
Kishkumen
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States650 Posts
August 29 2010 07:35 GMT
#49
Finally someone has taught me how to be successful with OPs on TL. Starcraft 2 general forum here I come!
Weird, last time I checked the UN said you need to have at least 200 APM and be rainbow league to be called human. —Liquid`TLO
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11552 Posts
August 29 2010 09:02 GMT
#50
On August 07 2010 05:17 Lemonwalrus wrote:
This thread keeps getting worse (My proposition).

Credentials
- Devourer icon
- I've seen/made many bad threads before

Why this thread keeps getting worse
1. People think putting their post in this format will automatically make what they have to say funny.

2. Both mahnini and FragKrag have posted in this thread.

Therefore, this thread is terrible.

My suggestion
- Give me banling status.
- mahnini isn't actually a phd.


where is your phd
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
August 29 2010 13:45 GMT
#51
On August 29 2010 22:09 Affluenza wrote:
Zerg still need numerous patches from the looks of it...

Zerglings - Speedlings seem to have too much of a cannon fodder utility to them.
Hydra - Speed increase and HP of 100 plz oh and make me viable in ZvT by giving me armour unit bonus damage of 2 or 3+. Tank and Psystorm fodder is what Hydralisk is atm.
Roach - Give me back my Armour and give me speed from the off also range increase to 4 plz k thanks!
Queen - Should not need Spawning pool. Faster spawn larvae cycles maybe 35 seconds.
Spire - Lower the Spire time 10-15 seconds
Infestor - Neural Parasite needs to be at least 20 or 30 seconds
Spine Crawler - Marauder fodder. Spines should not be considered a structure.
Overseer - Needs a 25 reduction maybe even a 50 gas reduction!
Adrenal Glands Needs a buff!

JuddCaster
Profile Joined May 2010
United States45 Posts
October 01 2010 18:20 GMT
#52
On August 07 2010 01:14 Happy.fairytail wrote:
I'm not sure what the issue here is -- are you saying it's hard to improve by watching and receiving commentary on your replays? Because Zerg doesn't have initiative in the early game to take control of the game (because almost every Zerg FEs), so there isn't a single build order that lets you dictate the pace of the game 20 times in a row?

In the end, watching and analyzing replays is one of the best and most concrete ways of improving yourself. What do you suggest Zerg do instead?

Let's get to the heart of the issue ... no match up is beyond 45-55 right now, and overall the race win/ratio is within a couple of % of even, according to Blizzard posts. Ultimately, skill is a much higher determinant of whether you win or loss a match. Yes, race may provide you a 5-10% boost in your probability of winning, but the other 90-95%? That's you, and only you are responsible for that 90-95%. So man up, and take responsibilitiy for that 90-95%, and post replays, cuz that's a far better way of upping your win % than posting complaints about imbalance on the forums.

I think what he's trying to say is that Zerg has MORE to prepare for because of the variety of options the Terran has, thus making it harder for Zergs to properly prepare. It almost sounds to me like you guys are discussing Brood War though, no?

As for complaining about imbalance: it's a perfectly legitimate and helpful way to change things. Products improve due to customer feedback, games like this aren't any exception. The best thing a Zerg could do if he thought he was facing a huge imbalance is probably switch races. I'm a hypocrite because I always complain about Terran being overpowered in BW and haven't switched, but I think that would be the best thing on a large scale. It would show "hey, no one is using this race, perhaps it's underpowered."

And I know your post is from like 2 months ago, but I don't like this taboo of not being able to discuss balance.
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