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ZvT Imbalance: How to make a successful thread.

Blogs > mahnini
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mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 01:26:25
August 06 2010 01:22 GMT
#1
Hallo everybody! (Hi Dr. Nini!)
I'm here to talk to you today about making threads. Not just any kind of thread, an imbalance thread. Some people think you need weeks or even months of SC2 experience to make a good thread! But folks, I'm here to prove them wrong. Just follow these easy steps and you'll be A-OK!

Step 1: The Title.
As you know by now, ZvT imbalance is a hot topic so be sure to include that in your title (see: title). Don't forget to include a qualifier though so if someone calls your ideas stupid or nonsensical you can respond with "they're just a suggestions!" "well it's my opinion!"

Example:
TvZ imbalance: My Take.

TvZ imbalance: Take 2 (with more effort)

TvZ imbalance: It really is imbalanced IMO. TvZ that is.


Step 2: The Introduction.
The introduction is very important to set the tone for the rest of the post, that's why you should be sure to include your league, rank, and ELO. It's good to include your ELO so people know how many points you have and can make large assumptions about your skill based on the lack of information provided about games played or win ratio. Be sure to list your league and rank as well because something has to fill in the white-space where your replays should be. Also mention you switched to Terran and played 5 TvZs against your similarly ranked friend and won easily.

Example:
Hi! I'm Nini McNeenerton from South Neensville. I'm a 700 ELO rank 8 diamond player from Automaton Butterfly division. ZvT is imbalanced, trust me! I even played like 20 TvZs and won all of them. WOWOWOW!

Step 3: The Imbalance.
This section is the most important. It requires a certain amount of elegance to pull off but I know you can do it! You want to list what you think is causing the ZvT imbalance and make well-known generalizations about them. Be sure to not get to specific though or else you may end up having to argue to point with substantial evidence!

Example:
Reasons why ZvT is imbalanced.
1. Terrans have a lot of openings that are hard to scout.
  • 1 Rax
  • 2 rax
  • Thor Drop
  • Cloaked Banshee
  • Fast Hellion
  • So much more omfg!

Notice that I've done nothing but list Terran openings! Let's continue!

Example:
2. Terran units counter everything Zerg has!
  • Hellions > Zerglings
  • Tanks > Hydralisks
  • Thors > Mutalisks
  • Marauders > Roaches

What overwhelming evidence?! Simply list all the hard counters in the matchup that are favorable to Terran while ignoring Zerg counters to Terran units. Who's going to argue that hard counters don't exist?! Upward and onward!

Example:
3. My nerf suggestions!
  • Lower the range of Vikings
  • Take away Thor splash but give it +2 additional damage to light
  • Increase Reaper cost
  • Make MULEs SCVs that can't autorally and get rid of MULE calldown
  • Decrease Hive cost and build time
  • Increase Ultralisk HP to 900

The most important thing in this section is to maintain no sense of consistency whatsoever. You want to barrage the reader with so many nonsensical nerfs that anyone with half a brain will give up and not respond. Be sure to also include slight buffs with some of your nerfs even though the buffs make no real attempt to balance the terrible nerf at all. Be sure to include nerfs starting from early game units to late game tech buildings that way people know you've at least made it to late game!

Step 4: Conclusion.
In the conclusion, be sure to make an appeal to rationality. Make sure your reader knows that you are being completely objective and that you have considered everything possible even though you have not considered how your changes will affect other matchups. Also, be sure to include a snide remark towards the end about the current atrocity known as ZvT and, if you feel like it, send a quip Blizzard's way.

Example:
I think these changes will balance TvZ, proven by the fact that ladder statistics prove that Terran see a 5% increase in the Top 100. I think if Blizzard would be kind enough to balance their game maybe every Gold league Terran won't be in Diamond with 80% winrates XD.

So guys, I just want you to learn as much as possible and for Terrans to admit that they are actually terrible and only winning because the matchup is hugely imbalanced in their favor. I think it's up to us to initiate change because it's not like Blizzard would do it themselves. XD

***
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 06 2010 01:29 GMT
#2
Are you really a doctor?
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
August 06 2010 01:31 GMT
#3
On August 06 2010 10:29 Entropic wrote:
Are you really a doctor?

indubitably
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
August 06 2010 01:31 GMT
#4
Of course he's a doctor. See that scary red plexor next to his name?
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 01:36:00
August 06 2010 01:31 GMT
#5
Terran is imbalanced (My proposition).

Credentials
- I win games with strong FD and BRFS (at D level)

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that can lift buildings.
- Terran

2. Races that can't lift buildings
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Allow Nexuses to warp around the map and recall probes.
- Allow Hatcheries, Lairs, and Hives to fly around and have a carry capacity of four ultras.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 06 2010 01:32 GMT
#6
Anyways this is a cool thread, I think I'm now well equipped to make a fulfilling and substantiative thread in the strategy forum, thanks doc!
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11567 Posts
August 06 2010 01:35 GMT
#7
i have evidence that mahnini is not a phd
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
August 06 2010 01:40 GMT
#8
Reasons why mahnini would have a PHD:
  • PHDs are for doctorates
  • You don't have to be a medical doctor to be a PHD
  • Smart people have PHDs
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11393 Posts
August 06 2010 01:43 GMT
#9
On August 06 2010 10:40 mahnini wrote:
Reasons why mahnini would have a PHD:
  • PHDs are for doctorates
  • You don't have to be a medical doctor to be a PHD
  • Smart people have PHDs

Zooey doesn't have a PHD. Are you calling her dumb? How dare you. You should be ashamed of yourself.

On August 06 2010 10:31 koreasilver wrote:
Terran is imbalanced (My proposition).

Credentials
- I win games with strong FD and BRFS (at D level)

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that can lift buildings.
- Terran

2. Races that can't lift buildings
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Allow Nexuses to warp around the map and recall probes.
- Allow Hatcheries, Lairs, and Hives to fly around and have a carry capacity of four ultras.

Completely airtight logic with no holes tbh.
Moderator。◕‿◕。
Severedevil
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4839 Posts
August 06 2010 01:49 GMT
#10
Needs [G] tag.
My strategy is to fork people.
CuteSmallHydra
Profile Joined May 2003
Canada120 Posts
August 06 2010 01:52 GMT
#11
Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion: switch the size of Thors and SCV's.
aka fOr)Darko
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 02:01:16
August 06 2010 02:00 GMT
#12
edit: I tried to pull a baller chart but failed miserably
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 02:06:12
August 06 2010 02:04 GMT
#13
On August 06 2010 10:52 CuteSmallHydra wrote:
Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion: switch the size of Thors and SCV's.

GIANT SCVs?!?!?

On topic: don't ignore TvP
I am a Pro league 1200 ELO Protoss player and I still get owned by the simplest of Terran builds. IMBALANCE? I think so!

1. Terran has marauders
Terran has tanks
Terran has banshees
2. Marauders>stalkers
Tanks>stalkers
Banshees>stalkers
3. It is obviously imbalances since Protoss cannot win with just stalkers
4. Buff stalkers. Give them marauder slow shells, marauder bonus vs armor, tank splash Nd banshee cloak
:D I'm a pro now!
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
August 06 2010 02:06 GMT
#14
I support your view. Zerg was nerfed so many times and terran was buffed so many times, omg, this must mean that blizzard has no idea what they are doing and T is imba! We NEED 1 supply roaches back because we are all sick of making other units!
sLiniss
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States849 Posts
August 06 2010 02:17 GMT
#15
On August 06 2010 10:40 mahnini wrote:
Reasons why mahnini would have a PHD:
  • PHDs are for doctorates
  • You don't have to be a medical doctor to be a PHD
  • Smart people have PHDs


I am a PHD....wut


And 2 supply roaches is still pretty annoying. I've been in too many games that get me to go MutaLing
blahman3344
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2015 Posts
August 06 2010 02:23 GMT
#16
Terran is imbalanced (My proposition).

Credentials
- I win games with the same 2port banshee build (at bronze level)

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that have cliff-jumpers early game.
- Terran

2. Races that don't have cliff-jumpers early-game
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Give zealots and zerglings spring shoes so that they can jump cliffs.
- Make the reaper's jumping ability have to be researched in techlab

(this is supposed to be a joke sorta...right? o_o)
I like haikus and / I can not lie. You other / brothers can't deny
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
August 06 2010 02:26 GMT
#17
Yeah man I hear ya. Zerg needs Lurkers back. And Defilers. Can't do shit without them two.
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
August 06 2010 03:09 GMT
#18
Any thoughts on a next project for me?

I like starting trends

Kinda like the sound of "PvZ 2 gate pressure nerf".
FuRong
Profile Joined April 2010
New Zealand3089 Posts
August 06 2010 03:29 GMT
#19
On August 06 2010 11:23 blahman3344 wrote:
Terran is imbalanced (My proposition).

Credentials
- I win games with the same 2port banshee build (at bronze level)

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that have cliff-jumpers early game.
- Terran

2. Races that don't have cliff-jumpers early-game
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Give zealots and zerglings spring shoes so that they can jump cliffs.
- Make the reaper's jumping ability have to be researched in techlab



This is gonna become a meme now.
Don't hate the player, hate the game
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
August 06 2010 03:32 GMT
#20
I thought this was BW and then I was sad when it wasn't because I have no idea if tvz is imbalanced in SC2 but I would love to rage about how hard ZvT is in BW because fucking irradiate fucking tanks fucking mines bullshit bullshit rararrrg *rips off shirt*
brood war for life, brood war forever
Kezzer
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1268 Posts
August 06 2010 03:33 GMT
#21
I have a feeling some people are going to take this seriously.
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
August 06 2010 03:41 GMT
#22
The number of terrans whining on the zergs whining about obvious imbalance is starting to outnumber us whining zergs imo :p i gotta whine about that too.
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
August 06 2010 03:51 GMT
#23
I dunno, the late-game mech transition after the bio opening is pretty deadly. I think zergs really need to be more aggressive in tech switching themselves, and need to get better at matching terran gayness with roach macro. Also, lurkers. Should be added.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
August 06 2010 03:54 GMT
#24
On August 06 2010 12:32 Crunchums wrote:
I thought this was BW and then I was sad when it wasn't because I have no idea if tvz is imbalanced in SC2 but I would love to rage about how hard ZvT is in BW because fucking irradiate fucking tanks fucking mines bullshit bullshit rararrrg *rips off shirt*


LOL word man
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
August 06 2010 04:00 GMT
#25
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 06 2010 04:01 GMT
#26
On August 06 2010 12:51 tree.hugger wrote:
I dunno, the late-game mech transition after the bio opening is pretty deadly. I think zergs really need to be more aggressive in tech switching themselves, and need to get better at matching terran gayness with roach macro. Also, lurkers. Should be added.


Most of the "imba talk" in sc2 TvZ is with mech, I don't think lurkers will really help with mech.
Sinensis
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2513 Posts
August 06 2010 04:09 GMT
#27
Terran is imbalanced (My proposition).

Credentials

- I'm rank 1 diamond zerg and won every TvZ in my placement matches.

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that have tanks
- Terran

2. Races that don't have tanks
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Make mutas able to turn into brood lords for free.
- Make brood lords able to attack air except they spit scourges.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 06 2010 04:23 GMT
#28
Terran is imbalanced (My take).

Credentials

- I'm rank 1 Diamond Zerg Division Wallabie Kangaroo

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that have slow
- Terran (marauders)

2. Races that don't have slow
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Make zealots get charge for free
- Let zerg have movespeed equal to their on-creep movespeed (ie. lightspeed)
Magus
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada450 Posts
August 06 2010 04:25 GMT
#29
On August 06 2010 13:23 Entropic wrote:
Terran is imbalanced (My take).

Credentials

- I'm rank 1 Diamond Zerg Division Wallabie Kangaroo

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that have slow
- Terran (marauders)

2. Races that don't have slow
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Make zealots get charge for free
- Let zerg have movespeed equal to their on-creep movespeed (ie. lightspeed)

This man is lying he is not from Australia.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 04:41:21
August 06 2010 04:41 GMT
#30
On August 06 2010 13:25 Magus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 13:23 Entropic wrote:
Terran is imbalanced (My take).

Credentials

- I'm rank 1 Diamond Zerg Division Wallabie Kangaroo

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that have slow
- Terran (marauders)

2. Races that don't have slow
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Make zealots get charge for free
- Let zerg have movespeed equal to their on-creep movespeed (ie. lightspeed)

This man is lying he is not from Australia.


Sorry man, I've just been on LZ's stream a lot lately and Incontrol just keeps pounding on the Azz the aussie (hilarious btw, as many would attest).
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 04:51:58
August 06 2010 04:49 GMT
#31
On August 06 2010 12:51 tree.hugger wrote:
I dunno, the late-game mech transition after the bio opening is pretty deadly. I think zergs really need to be more aggressive in tech switching themselves, and need to get better at matching terran gayness with roach macro. Also, lurkers. Should be added.


It's so cute when terrans talk like this.

Go try it out, we'll wait.


The first annoying thing was playing Zerg and having to play vs Terran.
Then the annoying thing became the Terran players who refused to admit there was an issue. That was the most annoying thing.
Then the most annoying thing were the flux of zerg players all claiming they know why the matchup is imbalanced or that the matchup is unwinnable by zerg.
Now I'd have to say the most annoying thing is the glut of terran/protoss players who not only think it's zerg players making stuff up, but also ridicule away at their attempts to explain the complex balance issue that is ZvT.
Logo
Wings
Profile Joined January 2010
United States999 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 04:59:44
August 06 2010 04:57 GMT
#32
I lol'd. Awesome post, funnier responses. Please make that koreasilver imba format a meme.

On August 06 2010 12:32 Crunchums wrote:
I thought this was BW and then I was sad when it wasn't because I have no idea if tvz is imbalanced in SC2 but I would love to rage about how hard ZvT is in BW because fucking irradiate fucking tanks fucking mines bullshit bullshit rararrrg *rips off shirt*


this was the funniest comment i've read all week. especially after the MSL Ro8 comments. omg I'm still laughing
The probability of Kim Carrier getting all those predictions wrong is similar to the probability Flash loses a TvT. Kim Carrier MUST BE a genius. His only big mistake... STORK.
hasuprotoss
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States4679 Posts
August 06 2010 06:14 GMT
#33
Terran is imbalanced (My take).

Credentials

- I'm best Zerg in world, imo.

Why Terran is imbalanced
1. Races that have a free scouting tool that's impossible to stop (scans!!!)
- Terran

2. Races that don't have free scouting tool that's impossible to stop
- Protoss
- Zerg

Therefore, Terran is imbalanced.

My suggestion
- Make overlords free.
- Make Scans cost 400 minerals each. And make it an upgrade for Orbital for 100/100.
- Reduce Marine range by 1.
- Make observers cost 10/15.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?viewdays=0&show_part=5 <--- Articles Section on TL
Lexpar
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
1813 Posts
August 06 2010 06:46 GMT
#34
On August 06 2010 13:00 tomatriedes wrote:
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.


Thank you. The number of threads by Terran players ridiculing Zerg player for having legitimate complaints is mind boggling.
Z3kk
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4099 Posts
August 06 2010 07:41 GMT
#35
On August 06 2010 10:31 mahnini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 10:29 Entropic wrote:
Are you really a doctor?

indubitably


Technically, "indubitably" shouldn't be used in standard English. Being a doctor, I expect your English to be nigh untouchable

+ Show Spoiler [UNLESS] +
you're Sherlock Holmes
Failure is not falling down over and over again. Failure is refusing to get back up.
Jugan
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1566 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 08:39:30
August 06 2010 08:38 GMT
#36
On August 06 2010 15:46 Lexpar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 13:00 tomatriedes wrote:
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.


Thank you. The number of threads by Terran players ridiculing Zerg player for having legitimate complaints is mind boggling.


Because it's real fun to play against exploding zerglings that 2-shot your entire army. right?
Even a Savior couldn't fix all problems. www.twitch.tv/xJugan
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
August 06 2010 08:45 GMT
#37
On August 06 2010 16:41 Z3kk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 10:31 mahnini wrote:
On August 06 2010 10:29 Entropic wrote:
Are you really a doctor?

indubitably


Technically, "indubitably" shouldn't be used in standard English. Being a doctor, I expect your English to be nigh untouchable

+ Show Spoiler [UNLESS] +
you're Sherlock Holmes


You don't need perfect english to get the phd (specially in hard sciences, math, economics, CS).
sLiniss
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States849 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 09:21:54
August 06 2010 09:21 GMT
#38
Terran is imbalanced (Fact).

Credentials
- I am unranked because Blizzard put me in my own league just because they were afraid of me getting n00bs to QQ/RQ and increase suicide rates in America

Why Terran/Protoss is imbalanced
Terran
  • Marauders w/ stim... I mean c'mon, self explanatory
  • Tanks... with or without siege mode do an unmeasurable amount damage, like wayyyyy over 9000
  • Thors - Like tanks, cept bigger and a bit manlier


Protoss
  • Warpgates - warp in units almost instantly anywhere you build a structure that only costs 100 and gives supply
  • Voidrays - Imbabeamz that become more imba after they CHARGIN THEIR LAZERZS
  • Force fields - Like the Invisible Woman or a bunch of Jedi Knights


Races that are underpowered
Zerg
[list]
[*]No need for explanation. Just take my word for it. Everything I saw is always true, so you don't have to worry. Just sit back, relax, and rage at Blizzard until they buff Zerg.

Therefore, Terran/Protoss is imbalanced.

My suggestions
- Hack all the Terran/Protoss player's accounts and sell them to 12 year old n00bs, this will increase Zerg winrate by buttloads
- Just get rid of Terran/Protoss permanently. I mean... why have them around. I don't like them, so no one should play them. End of story.

Thanks for reading.
HeadhunteR
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Argentina1258 Posts
August 06 2010 11:25 GMT
#39
I thought this was rage from the Warning bw spoilers: + Show Spoiler +
sea vs jaedong match
...but yeah there are lots of dumb posts in the sc2 area that have this tone..
in The Kong line forever
Happy.fairytail
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States327 Posts
August 06 2010 14:47 GMT
#40
On August 06 2010 15:46 Lexpar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 13:00 tomatriedes wrote:
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.


Thank you. The number of threads by Terran players ridiculing Zerg player for having legitimate complaints is mind boggling.


The problem I have with all these kinds of threads is that they're all just whining. If you wanted to get better, you'd post replays and ask for feedback -- not rage about how the game is stacked against you. Simple as that. Do you want to whine, or do you want to get better?

I really wonder why mods don't automatically close any thread that talks about imba when they don't include replays.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
August 06 2010 15:14 GMT
#41
On August 06 2010 23:47 Happy.fairytail wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 15:46 Lexpar wrote:
On August 06 2010 13:00 tomatriedes wrote:
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.


Thank you. The number of threads by Terran players ridiculing Zerg player for having legitimate complaints is mind boggling.


The problem I have with all these kinds of threads is that they're all just whining. If you wanted to get better, you'd post replays and ask for feedback -- not rage about how the game is stacked against you. Simple as that. Do you want to whine, or do you want to get better?

I really wonder why mods don't automatically close any thread that talks about imba when they don't include replays.


Part of the problem with the match-up is that it's hard to actually do this. There have been some good ZvT 'ideas' or improving on your ZvT threads, but it can only go so far. It's really easy to take a ZvT match and say, "Well if player did x,y,z they'd win" but that doesn't really count for a whole lot. First off playing mechanically better will always help you win, that's fine and good, but it's not really something you need to ask help for. As for the actual strategies a big part of the matchup's problem is that there are so many things a Terran can throw at you and in such flexible ways.
Usually the advice is something that would win that one particular game, but that's completely useless because the next 20 times you play terrans you're going to be seeing completely different stuff that demands completely different style of play.

Without zerg having more ways of restricting Terran options it's really hard to solicit advice on the matchup. By comparison when it's ZvP it's very easy to give advice. ZvP can feel very unfair at times to players, but you see little whining on the matchup and that's why (well also because it's more balanced). It's easy to look at replays or ask for advice, see what you did wrong, then apply it to the next game and actually have it result in some sort of improvement.
Logo
Happy.fairytail
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States327 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 16:20:46
August 06 2010 16:14 GMT
#42
On August 07 2010 00:14 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 23:47 Happy.fairytail wrote:
On August 06 2010 15:46 Lexpar wrote:
On August 06 2010 13:00 tomatriedes wrote:
I think after two weeks of being out it's obvious that SC2 is already perfectly balanced so we should try and shut down and ridicule anyone who tries to identify any supposed imbalances.


Thank you. The number of threads by Terran players ridiculing Zerg player for having legitimate complaints is mind boggling.


The problem I have with all these kinds of threads is that they're all just whining. If you wanted to get better, you'd post replays and ask for feedback -- not rage about how the game is stacked against you. Simple as that. Do you want to whine, or do you want to get better?

I really wonder why mods don't automatically close any thread that talks about imba when they don't include replays.


Part of the problem with the match-up is that it's hard to actually do this. There have been some good ZvT 'ideas' or improving on your ZvT threads, but it can only go so far. It's really easy to take a ZvT match and say, "Well if player did x,y,z they'd win" but that doesn't really count for a whole lot. First off playing mechanically better will always help you win, that's fine and good, but it's not really something you need to ask help for. As for the actual strategies a big part of the matchup's problem is that there are so many things a Terran can throw at you and in such flexible ways.
Usually the advice is something that would win that one particular game, but that's completely useless because the next 20 times you play terrans you're going to be seeing completely different stuff that demands completely different style of play.

Without zerg having more ways of restricting Terran options it's really hard to solicit advice on the matchup. By comparison when it's ZvP it's very easy to give advice. ZvP can feel very unfair at times to players, but you see little whining on the matchup and that's why (well also because it's more balanced). It's easy to look at replays or ask for advice, see what you did wrong, then apply it to the next game and actually have it result in some sort of improvement.


I'm not sure what the issue here is -- are you saying it's hard to improve by watching and receiving commentary on your replays? Because Zerg doesn't have initiative in the early game to take control of the game (because almost every Zerg FEs), so there isn't a single build order that lets you dictate the pace of the game 20 times in a row?

In the end, watching and analyzing replays is one of the best and most concrete ways of improving yourself. What do you suggest Zerg do instead?

Let's get to the heart of the issue ... no match up is beyond 45-55 right now, and overall the race win/ratio is within a couple of % of even, according to Blizzard posts. Ultimately, skill is a much higher determinant of whether you win or loss a match. Yes, race may provide you a 5-10% boost in your probability of winning, but the other 90-95%? That's you, and only you are responsible for that 90-95%. So man up, and take responsibilitiy for that 90-95%, and post replays, cuz that's a far better way of upping your win % than posting complaints about imbalance on the forums.
Z3kk
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4099 Posts
August 06 2010 17:44 GMT
#43
On August 06 2010 17:45 Entropic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 06 2010 16:41 Z3kk wrote:
On August 06 2010 10:31 mahnini wrote:
On August 06 2010 10:29 Entropic wrote:
Are you really a doctor?

indubitably


Technically, "indubitably" shouldn't be used in standard English. Being a doctor, I expect your English to be nigh untouchable

+ Show Spoiler [UNLESS] +
you're Sherlock Holmes


You don't need perfect english to get the phd (specially in hard sciences, math, economics, CS).


I know that. It was part of the terrible, failed joke :C

This thread is pure diamond of the highest rank.
Failure is not falling down over and over again. Failure is refusing to get back up.
talecK
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada35 Posts
August 06 2010 19:17 GMT
#44
mahnini, I love your work. I read this after writing up my "Zerg Tears" Guide and felt like it drew some (perhaps not obvious) parallels. WP sir.
Lemonwalrus
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States5465 Posts
August 06 2010 20:17 GMT
#45
This thread keeps getting worse (My proposition).

Credentials
- Devourer icon
- I've seen/made many bad threads before

Why this thread keeps getting worse
1. People think putting their post in this format will automatically make what they have to say funny.

2. Both mahnini and FragKrag have posted in this thread.

Therefore, this thread is terrible.

My suggestion
- Give me banling status.
- mahnini isn't actually a phd.
GreatFall
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1061 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-06 23:29:58
August 06 2010 23:28 GMT
#46
Nice a fellow Ph.D. Zerg player. Sense of humor to. very good. Continue -_-
Inventor of the 'Burning Tide' technique to quickly getting Outmatched Crusher achivement :D
Meapak_Ziphh
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6789 Posts
August 29 2010 06:23 GMT
#47
At some point I was reading the comments and couldn't remember whether I was reading a satirical balance thread or a real balance thread, apparently nothing can stop the endless balance discussion
Forti et Fideli ~ TL Mafia Forum: Come play with us! ~ Go Samsung KHAN, Stork, JangBi , Shine, Grape, and TurN Fighting!~ wat
MorningMusume11
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3490 Posts
August 29 2010 06:42 GMT
#48
Can you write my papers for me plz lol
Kishkumen
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States650 Posts
August 29 2010 07:35 GMT
#49
Finally someone has taught me how to be successful with OPs on TL. Starcraft 2 general forum here I come!
Weird, last time I checked the UN said you need to have at least 200 APM and be rainbow league to be called human. —Liquid`TLO
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11567 Posts
August 29 2010 09:02 GMT
#50
On August 07 2010 05:17 Lemonwalrus wrote:
This thread keeps getting worse (My proposition).

Credentials
- Devourer icon
- I've seen/made many bad threads before

Why this thread keeps getting worse
1. People think putting their post in this format will automatically make what they have to say funny.

2. Both mahnini and FragKrag have posted in this thread.

Therefore, this thread is terrible.

My suggestion
- Give me banling status.
- mahnini isn't actually a phd.


where is your phd
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
Catch]22
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden2683 Posts
August 29 2010 13:45 GMT
#51
On August 29 2010 22:09 Affluenza wrote:
Zerg still need numerous patches from the looks of it...

Zerglings - Speedlings seem to have too much of a cannon fodder utility to them.
Hydra - Speed increase and HP of 100 plz oh and make me viable in ZvT by giving me armour unit bonus damage of 2 or 3+. Tank and Psystorm fodder is what Hydralisk is atm.
Roach - Give me back my Armour and give me speed from the off also range increase to 4 plz k thanks!
Queen - Should not need Spawning pool. Faster spawn larvae cycles maybe 35 seconds.
Spire - Lower the Spire time 10-15 seconds
Infestor - Neural Parasite needs to be at least 20 or 30 seconds
Spine Crawler - Marauder fodder. Spines should not be considered a structure.
Overseer - Needs a 25 reduction maybe even a 50 gas reduction!
Adrenal Glands Needs a buff!

JuddCaster
Profile Joined May 2010
United States45 Posts
October 01 2010 18:20 GMT
#52
On August 07 2010 01:14 Happy.fairytail wrote:
I'm not sure what the issue here is -- are you saying it's hard to improve by watching and receiving commentary on your replays? Because Zerg doesn't have initiative in the early game to take control of the game (because almost every Zerg FEs), so there isn't a single build order that lets you dictate the pace of the game 20 times in a row?

In the end, watching and analyzing replays is one of the best and most concrete ways of improving yourself. What do you suggest Zerg do instead?

Let's get to the heart of the issue ... no match up is beyond 45-55 right now, and overall the race win/ratio is within a couple of % of even, according to Blizzard posts. Ultimately, skill is a much higher determinant of whether you win or loss a match. Yes, race may provide you a 5-10% boost in your probability of winning, but the other 90-95%? That's you, and only you are responsible for that 90-95%. So man up, and take responsibilitiy for that 90-95%, and post replays, cuz that's a far better way of upping your win % than posting complaints about imbalance on the forums.

I think what he's trying to say is that Zerg has MORE to prepare for because of the variety of options the Terran has, thus making it harder for Zergs to properly prepare. It almost sounds to me like you guys are discussing Brood War though, no?

As for complaining about imbalance: it's a perfectly legitimate and helpful way to change things. Products improve due to customer feedback, games like this aren't any exception. The best thing a Zerg could do if he thought he was facing a huge imbalance is probably switch races. I'm a hypocrite because I always complain about Terran being overpowered in BW and haven't switched, but I think that would be the best thing on a large scale. It would show "hey, no one is using this race, perhaps it's underpowered."

And I know your post is from like 2 months ago, but I don't like this taboo of not being able to discuss balance.
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