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On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid. I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him.
He is still respected enough that Flash is practicing mainly with him for the finals...
You do remember that Flash started out like this too? Hell, his finals vs Stork was brilliant but even more gimmicky than Efforts. You can't see into the future, noone can.
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Pff... even more flaming, now I'm starting to feel bad for thinking like Plexa lol...
Too much hate I guess... | -_-|
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lol, honestly Plexa this is the worst commentary I've read in a long time. Flash made the last 2 games bad, not Effort. You want him to sit back and watch Flash 14CC when he has 2 hatcheries, enough gas for speed, and his pool up already? And you're saying Effort made the 4th game bad by getting cheesed? Really?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:56 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid. I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him. He is still respected enough that Flash is practicing mainly with him for the finals... You do remember that Flash started out like this too? Hell, his finals vs Stork was brilliant but even more gimmicky than Efforts. You can't see into the future, noone can.
What? Flash's bacchus win was anything but gimmicky... Again, that stuff was revolutionary and influenced a generation of TvP.
Flash when he first started out, in Daum, was gimmicky. He wasn't ready for the big time and it showed. If Flash was still playing like he was back in Daum there would have been no possible way for him to have won Bacchus that's for sure.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
This blog seems designed to annoy me.
But I'll take the high road. Haters gonna hate.
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States22883 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid.
CJ fanboy imo
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And I was hoping this was troll post  I mean sincerely. Even assuming Effort used so-called "dirty tactic", it is within Flash's fault for not adapting to such common "dirty strategies" three times in a row? And Effort was quite good to pull it off?
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Since your blog is basically a rant, I am not too concerned about your controversial statements and rather found them amusing.
However, the way you make it sound like game 4 of Jaedong vs Fantasy and game 4 of Effort vs Flash were "Dirty Zerg"-play is really not helping your argument. Fantasy built a proxy fac (which Jaedong scouted) and Flash tried to BBS (and got scouted). Of course they adjusted their game-plan accordingly. If they would have played "Dirty Zerg" regardless we cannot know.
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I love EffOrt. Just saying.
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I can just recall the enormous amount of times flash has done bunker rushes on 2nd hatch or pressured 14 nexus. Effort knew he stood a better chance at taking him out early game rather than go against a macro beast. The smarter strategy is to make him pay for his macro ways and early game aggressiveness despite macroing up. I feel the same you do about z "dirty" style, but with terran "macro". I get so sick of watching idra play in sc bw or sc2, because almost every game is a boring snooze fest on his part. Granted I respect great macro and love to watch games where both players are macro beasts such as jaedong and flash, but at the same time I like to watch the contrasting styles as well.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 01:09 Malinor wrote:
Since your blog is basically a rant, I am not too concerned about your controversial statements and rather found them amusing.
However, the way you make it sound like game 4 of Jaedong vs Fantasy and game 4 of Effort vs Flash were "Dirty Zerg"-play is really not helping your argument. Fantasy built a proxy fac (which Jaedong scouted) and Flash tried to BBS (and got scouted). Of course they adjusted their game-plan accordingly. If they would have played "Dirty Zerg" regardless we cannot know.
Finally someone who gets it.
The only worthwhile thing to take from this blog is that Flash /Jaedong > Effort skillwise and Plexa watched the finals less than 3 hours ago.
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no offense, but you kinda sound like idra here
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As a small aside, it frustrates me that Terran and Protoss do not have this opportunity against Zerg - so if a Zerg has a bad day he can still cheese his way to a win, but if a Terran has a bad day he gets 0-3'd.
Seriously? What about fucking bunker rushes that doesn't even deny terran a standard continuation? And you think Effort ruind the series after adapting to 14CC and BBS cheese from Flash? This is the worst blog I've ever read. I hope it is some kind of joke.
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While it was an interesting read, I completely disagree with you. The only aim in Starcraft (or any game) is to win. If you find a way to win, you are a better player. You beat the map, the other player, and you succeeded in following the rules of Starcraft. There's not much else to it.
And using "legit strategy" as a term completely undermines any argument you have. Effort beat Flash, he was the better player on the day. Jaedong beat Fantasy because he was the better player, he BEAT him, what else is there to it?
Edit: Also, the naivety of calling cheese/dirty-zerg/whatever you are calling it, in a Starleague final a CHEAP choice, like it's some sort of blind, mindless, hope-for-the-best strategy that anyone could pull off, regardless of skill, is horrifying. I'm almost as mad as you are.
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On May 29 2010 01:03 tree.hugger wrote:This blog seems designed to annoy me. But I'll take the high road. Haters gonna hate. + Show Spoiler +
First of all I just want to say that the game where flash's monitor crashed was not in favour to any player. So bolding that game is just wierd.
Flash lost his valkyrie because his monitor crashed. It didn't crash because he lost his valkyrie.
Effort had no advantage whatsoever before Flash's monitor failed.
"Dirty zerg" is indeed effective. A player like Octzerg could get A on iccup using that style.
It doesn't really have to show that much skill, but I cannot blame effort for scouting Flash's proxy rax or chosing zergling allin vs CC first.
However to imply that Effort is better than Flash by showing these statistics is wrong.
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plexa tell me- what do you call this:
TvZ- terran goes, fake mech, fast vult, fake vult into wraith, 1 port 2 port play... Not to mention my all time fav- proxy rax, quick gas early valut early wraith play. if you don't think that shit is cheese then your so biased, i don't even know why i wasted my time reading this blog.
PvZ- protoss goes 9/9 proxy gate, cannon rush, 1 gate tech
I don't understand how you think that zerg is the only race that can cheese. terran has zerg by the balls in this days tvz. the only reason that flash lost is becuase he is a poor box player. It is a known fact- and like others have said before flash is simply a machine, not a player lol
to some how think that there is a 'bad' style of zerg to be played is ludicrous. The only zerg cheese is early pools (before 9) and some all in hydra break. nothing else comes close to some of the BS the other races can pull against zerg.
Stop whining because your hero lost.
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All I got out of this thread really..."QQ" "My daddy can still beat up your daddy even though he got fired!"
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On May 29 2010 01:14 dangots0ul wrote:
no offense, but you kinda sound like idra here
Except that Idra reacted like this
On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
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On May 29 2010 01:01 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:56 samachking wrote:On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid. I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him. He is still respected enough that Flash is practicing mainly with him for the finals... You do remember that Flash started out like this too? Hell, his finals vs Stork was brilliant but even more gimmicky than Efforts. You can't see into the future, noone can. What? Flash's bacchus win was anything but gimmicky... Again, that stuff was revolutionary and influenced a generation of TvP. Flash when he first started out, in Daum, was gimmicky. He wasn't ready for the big time and it showed. If Flash was still playing like he was back in Daum there would have been no possible way for him to have won Bacchus that's for sure.
Effort don't have to do something revolutionary, he just followed the simple guidelines to win, abuse your opponent's weakness to win. That's how you win in every sport, cover up your weakness, abuse your opponent's weaknesses. Flash has flaws in his game and didn't cover it enough. I would say that Effort prepared better for this finals than Flash did. He watched how Flash plays, knows that his weakness is his greediness.
If Flash opened 14CC, I'd consider that economic cheese, trying to gain a huge econ advantage from the start and you can only get this HUGE econ advantage if your opponent hadn't scouted you early enough to react properly or hadn't he just reacted properly to force/stall your macro.
Also, about the Jaedong vs Fantasy Bacchus OSL Finals. I'd say that finals just cemented my belief on Jaedong as the new hope for Zerg at that time. He comes prepared for the finals but, his opponent able to pull of a new ZvT build and managed to get the first two games. But then, being the great Zerg he was, Jaedong was able to instantly pull a counter. He understood that the standard 3-hatch muta would have really a hard time against Fanta Mech due to its slow start and therefore, he tried to fight with a better build winning against Fantasy's new strategy. I would say that using that build, Fantasy had practiced that build against 3-hatch or 2-hatch but, still Jaedong still proved that he was better than Fantasy.
Jaedong was able to turn the tide of 0-2 to a 3-2 win due to his flexibility and spontaneity while Flash lost 2-3 from a 2-0 lead because he wasn't able to somehow change his playstyle of being greedy. Flash's greediness helps him to be the monster he was but, that's his Achilles' heel too.
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I disagree with pretty much everything in the original post. There is one exception though: I agree that Effort win was a fluke, flash is the better player and should have won easily.
I think the Plexa's mindset is that every aggressive zerg build is a cheese or something close to that. That is silly. 9 pools speedlings or 2 hatch mutas are not cheese. They are aggressive builds but they do not depend on immediate quick, dirty victories. They have transitions into mid and late game, they are not all in. It's Flash's own fault that he could not defend against those strategies, both in his series against Effort as well as his series against Jaedong last season.
Plexa seems to think that everyone should play greedy and calls those innovative strategies. I think that those greedy build are the boring ones to watch. And one quick reminder, there are economical cheeses too. Not every cheese is a quick rush. For example, 12 cc, 12 nexus, three hatches before pool.
Flash was the one to cheese on that series against Effort: both on the set in which he did the scouted BBS and the last set on match point. Not the contrary, Effort didn't do a single cheese or risky build, he was the one that played standard.
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EPT
