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Austin10833 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break? Why wouldn't it deserve the same amount of respect. That stuff is all done through mindgames and reactionary play on how your opponent plays. To me it seems like a cop out. "Okay, I've got one game to take off of Flash. So I'll resort to a tactic which 100% relies on him making a mistake since I have no other way of being able to beat him and maybe I'll get lucky" It's a soft loss and I'm sure Flash knows that the next 90 times he plays Effort he's going to wipe the floor with him. Well since effort won the one game he prepared for, I'm not sure the theoretical next 90 are all that important.On May 29 2010 00:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:21 BroOd wrote:On May 29 2010 00:11 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:04 BroOd wrote:
I disagree profoundly with the assertion that gamers should be consciously trying to manufacture "quality games". As an audience, it's obviously preferable for us to watch pendulous momentum and artful climaxes, but this experience has to come organically from both players operating at a high level. If a game doesn't work on this level, I feel that the general "blame" (and I don't like calling it that) has to be placed on the loser. If flash had managed to deflect effort's play style, it would've been admittedly brilliant play, but he didn't. He succumbed to it, and as such, the onus for not providing high quality resistance and by extension high quality games falls on flash.
The notion of playing games with the expressed purpose of being "epic" is contrary to the driving spirit behind competition. People who compete at such a high level have to do so with singular mind and purpose. It has to be over-riding and all consuming.
If you're in the world series finals for baseball, with the game tied and a man on third, you're going to bunt or sacrifice-fly ball to bring him in and score a run. You're not going to swing away and try to hit a home run, even though it might be more of an "epic" way to win a game, certainly moreso that bunting. You do this because you're playing to win, and playing percentages. I think that's what effort was doing. Despite his play style in the last three games being technically considered more of a "risky" style, I think it provided him with the best chance to win, and a much higher odds of winning than by trying to win three consecutive games with a standard style while being down 0-2. He was playing to win, and he won. He did his job. The fact that the games weren't epic is simply not his fault, and it certainly shouldn't count as a mark against him. But at the same time can you acknowledge the difference between simply cheesing and doing something creative? e.g. Boxer's x3 bunk rush. Massively anticlimatic for the fans. Absolutely outstanding from a strategic point of view. Still an epic series imo. Jaedong 5 pooling fantasy. Massively anticlimatic, but again, outstanding from a strategic point of view. What about July vs Best? Same deal. The difference here is that efforts cheeses were uninspired and honestly, just lucky. At the end of the day, Flash is better than Effort and I stand by that claim. Again, I think if any fault's to be distributed for those games, it has to be on Flash. Was effort lucky to catch the MM moving out with his lings? Yes, he was lucky Flash didn't scout, and lucky Flash had his medics out of place. The "luck" in that situation could've easily been nullified by Flash, but it wasn't. Similarly, was effort lucky flash didn't block well on match point? To a degree, but with proper scouting and reaction, that runby could've been blocked and the dam never would've broken. It would've been great play. The fact that it never happened is Flash's fault, not effort's. Is Flash a better player than Effort? I'd be inclined to say yes. Unfortunately, that's largely irrelevant in almost every type of competition. The better player doesn't always win and, as they say, that's why they play the games. Okay so we agree, Flash is good. So does winning the OSL make effort good? That's the REAL question. Based on how he played in this league, he's still bad in my book.
Yes, he's good because he set out to win a series and he won. Playing up to arbitrary standards isn't a reliable metric to gauge how good a player is. He won a starleague, and won a finals against one of the best players in the world! You might not like him or how he plays, but to say he's bad is, in my opinion, somewhat disingenuous.
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You disregard that Flash played like a complete robotic idiot in that series. Without changing his builds or his mind during the series. And I can say the same about Fantasy, hey maybe it has something to do with the race and the mu itself? Zerg has to take risks and react accordingly. Flash did not play up to par in this series, nowhere near his level at all.
Game 1: Strong mech build, good push timing from Flash, effort tried to break the push too hastily and lost.
In game 2 the push was pretty terrible and there was no micro involved, he ended up losing 1.5 groups for 2 sunks, he let effort get away with 3 base 3hat before pool, sure he won because his gameplay is much superior and he outmultitasked effort in every other way, but give Jaedong an advantage like that and the game would be over.
Game 3: Nothing really wrong with what Flash has done here, his reaction time was a little off, I'm not sure if he had stim or not, but in that situation effort's gambit worked. And even if Flash did not push, the all in has two parts, and the mutas are hell to defend on FS, especially with Effort's strategy, you don't even mention that effortl ured him out by suiciding some lings.
Game 4: Flash friggin did not block his ramp even when he saw lings coming into his base.... That is not a mistake you make in the finals, and it simply cost him any chance of coming back, Fantasy and Canata have come back from situations like these before, but Flash did not block his ramp, lost his rines, which led to the ling scouting his main.
Game 5: Flash shouldve done this homework, Kwanro used the same build before and did it in the same way, it looked like a Yarnc style super fast mutalisks, but it ended up like Kwanro's build vs Light on match point, and I think he should've prepared for it and scouted better imo.
Effort is worse than Flash, we can all agree to that. But Flash did not deserve to win that series, "Robot" Terrans do not deserve to win series as much as "dirty" zergs dont. If you cant defend aggressive builds you shouldnt be doing the build you are doing anyways.
The funny thing is, the same style Zergs are using ZvT, Flash is currently using TvP, being extremely greedy while scouting well and abusing your opponent, and also using super aggressive pushes to break your opponent quickly. Granted, he scouts more than a normal Zerg does in ZvT, but his style is still risky.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:23 SuperArc wrote:
What is three hatch spire five hatch hydras to you if not innovative?
JulyZerg developed that on Andromeda so yea. I'd call that playing the trends  (I'm sure I've written about that too)
This article has two sides to it really. The first side basically is me angry that Flash lost the finals (I get it, it was his fault etc). The second side is basically saying, despite Effort winning the Starleague, he's still not a very good player. He didn't win it because he was better than Flash, he won because he got lucky (at every step in the competition).
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United States22883 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:10 flamewheel91 wrote:>.> Plexa It was a nice writeup though, even though you seem mad  It's okay you're cute. I'm with BroOd on this one, the progamers aren't supposed to play to satisfy us. Hell, some people like watching the cheese more. Jaedong 5pooling against Calm in the semis drew a hundred "LOLWTF" statements in about 30 seconds, and sometimes it's nice to have a little change. Yes that was a brilliant move. Do that three games in a row and that's fucking retarded and has zero indication of who is the better player or the more deserving player.
How can you possibly write this after calling EVER 2004 a brilliant move?
And don't forget the paths each player took to the championship. It's not like Effort didn't pay his dues, either.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:33 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:12 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:10 flamewheel91 wrote:>.> Plexa It was a nice writeup though, even though you seem mad It's okay you're cute. I'm with BroOd on this one, the progamers aren't supposed to play to satisfy us. Hell, some people like watching the cheese more. Jaedong 5pooling against Calm in the semis drew a hundred "LOLWTF" statements in about 30 seconds, and sometimes it's nice to have a little change. Yes that was a brilliant move. Do that three games in a row and that's fucking retarded and has zero indication of who is the better player or the more deserving player. How can you possibly write this after calling EVER 2004 a brilliant move? Massive difference between 5pool and bunker rush imo. Bunk rush spawned an entire generation of TvZ strategy (thanks largely to midas) while 5pool is just lulz and would never seriously be taken as a winning ZvZ strategy for more than a week.
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I might sort of buy the argument if Flash didn't 14 CC in a game 5 on a 2 player map. Who does that? Also, like Terran doesn't cheese? Lol.
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you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
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On May 29 2010 00:09 Chill wrote:
0 stars.
Agreed. I defy anyone but a butt-hurt fanboy to watch Effort's late-game play and tell me he's not an artist.
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A cheap win is still a win.
Flash has been guilty taking his share of cheap wins. In fact, Flash lost the OSL finals partly due to the fact that he tried to seal the deal by tossing the coin in the air, and expecting to let lady luck be on his side at least once out of three attempts.
1) Game 3: Flash pushes out BEFORE having medics, trying to catch Effort off-guard, after stopping Effort's speedling harass with minimal losses with no bunkers. He deserved to lose.
2) Game 4: BBS? Effort saw the low blow coming and proceeded to build order rape Flash.
3) Game 5: Jesus, if you want the start off with the greediest build around, at least show more composure against cheese. Flash expected Effort to play catch up, and failed spectacularly once Effort stepped outside of his comfort zone.
I have no sympathy for Flash. He was every bit as cheap and dirty as Effort. It doesn't matter if Flash was the superior player that day. He let luck be the deciding factor after taking a comfortable lead, and paid heavily for it.
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On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
+100000000000
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On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
wow I am agreeing 100% with Idra
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i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid.
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So hypocritical it's amazing.
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On May 29 2010 00:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:15 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'm happy to see players do non standard things because they know other ways to win. And I'm sad others don't share this view on strategic gaming. There's very little that pisses me off more than a disdainful attitude towards so called "cheese". Even using the word cheese pisses me off. It's a word created by people incapable dealing with strategic variance. And thus incapable of playing Broodwar. Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break? In StarCraft, you have this so-called "standard" play but, you would want to go down the path of "standard" when your opponent would also go down that path. If you can punish him for doing a 14CC, punish him. If I made 8 lings out of 12 hatch 11pool against your 1 rax FE, I have to make sure that I'd use those 8 lings to make my opponent sacrifice his economy (building a bunken, blocking with more scv's, etc) If you don't invest enough money for your army or defenses, you'd gain a bit economic advantage which you can use to gain more in the long run. Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:17 jalstar wrote:
Flash moved out without medics in game 3, let his 1-base drop play get scouted in game 4, and went 14 cc on a 2-player map in game 5.
Yeah, EffOrt is bad. Yeah. Ignore the 95% of Flash's other TvZ's where he doesn't make those foolish mistakes. Flash is human he's going to make mistakes at some point. If Flash replayed Effort right now I would still call a 3-0 for Flash - and I would think most of TL would still favor Flash over Effort.
You can always wonder about the "what-could-haves" in your mind but, you couldn't just avoid reality when it's already looking directly into your eyes. It's because Flash likes to save more for his macro that he's basically trying to live on a knife's edge (basically like how Savior play). You try to defend with forces as little as possible so, you can gain a huge econ advantage. But, then it's basically, one wrong move, one huge disadvantage.
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IdrA backing up his boy! MAH BOI.
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On May 29 2010 00:02 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 23:50 colonel_west wrote:
Zerg players will (and should) allways throw in some cheeze in a box, just to make sure the opponents dont get to greedy. If you can throw 3 such in and win all of them, then thats a bonus for the zerg that says more about the skill of the opponent. Completely disagree. Cheese can be used as a strategic weapon (e.g. Jaedong 5 pool against Fantasy). Cheese can be used to cheat us of a excellent series and make me pissed off (e.g. Jaedong against Fantasy in Batoo).
wow u serious? fantasy is like THE dirty terran back then, all he did was use builds he didnt make himself, proxy barracks, fast vulture. fantasy had 0 skill and only won due to opponents fucking up and not knowing how to react to his builds.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid.
I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him.
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United States1719 Posts
the first thing that popped into my head when i read this was all the times great players were bunker rushed out of important series
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I'm joining the "you are wrong this time, Plexa" bandwagon. It reminds me of this, another dark chapter in Plexa literature:
Boxer Should Quit Starcraft
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=76552
I think Effort is as worthy a champion as any other. If dirty zerg really is as dirty as you say and Effort only has the dirty zerg leg to stand on, he wouldn't be standing in the picture with the OSL trophy.
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EPT
