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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Oh dear, it looks like I am fashionably late for this party. But with the MSL finals upon us this just felt appropriate.
Edit: I probably should have said this earlier, but.... this article is two fold. Firstly is an angry fanboy upset that Flash lost the final doing dumb shit that he hasn't done in years. Secondly, is that Effort is still not "good" in the grand scheme of things despite winning a Starleague. He won this league through luck, not through skill.
Alright, rewind.
I have weird way of respecting Zergs. For me to respect you you need to be creative or innovative in some way. For a long time I despised Jaedong because he was a member of Lecaf because he was a boring player to watch. His entire gameplan was basically to exploit the other races being greedy and win. Sure there are some notable exceptions to this, but as far as I am concerned he contributed nothing to SC for the best part of his early career. More recently, I've come to respect his gameplay (still an anti-fan though). He's creating innovative builds to out greed the other races, showing amazing management in the process, and devising some of the most brilliant builds I've ever seen Zerg players use. Dear I say it, Jaedong now looks stronger than Jaedong at any other point in history (in my eyes).
But you also have the complete opposite, those who have raw aggression and break you down with waves upon waves of attacks. The player I have in mind here is obviously Kwanro. No, he'll never win a Starleague, but his "cheeses" are not just your run of the mill cheese. They don't rely on your opponent to fuck up, they work because he's Kwanro and he's honed his attacking skills to a point where its an art form. You can read up all about why I love Kwanro so much in this thread.
But then there is the dark side of Zerg. The dark, evil, cheesy, skill-less side which rears it's ugly head every so often. This beast can consume some of the greatest Zerg players and leave potentially epic series in ruins. They are a plague on the Starcraft scene.
My first encounter with such a Zerg was actually July. Now July is great and awesome and I love him to bits, but OGN devised such a map pool to fuck protoss over, that Pusan vs July from Shinhan 2005 was the worst semifinal ever played. Worse than July vs Backho - yes, that bad.
You can try to watch the series over on pandora.tv (here) but I doubt it will work and it is certainly not worth your time. I recommend you read this battle report by Mani instead, it makes the games at least 322% better.
July defeated Pusan in under 30 minutes after Pusan had proclaimed a 90% PvZ winrate in practice (I don't doubt this claim, the POS house is where Corsair play in PvZ was developed). The series could have been incredible, but it wasn't because July (and Pusan) had to exploit the maps and cheese their way through the semifinal. It was utterly depressing. The game did not reflect the talent of either player and the series did not do either of them justice. Furthermore, July crumpled against Oov in the final trying to pull similar tactics - perhaps if the map pool was better Pusan would have been in the final instead. (or at least July would have played better).
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Manifesto7/JulyPusanBankSemi/game21.jpg) ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
The ditry-zerg style had left a bitter taste in my mouth, and my resent for this style grew and grew. If there was one Zerg who encapsulated this style it was Silver. The Zerg who hydra rushed every single ZvP and somehow fluked his way into an MSL final. Silver had no real talent, he wasn't going to be around next season. And indeed, he was eliminated rather promptly. But at what cost? He eliminated the following Protoss from the MSL: Pusan, Nal_ra (lucky Boxer retired), Kingdom and Daezang. All of whom were better players than him and could have made that season of the MSL soooo much better.
The temptation to play dirty-zerg as a style is a strong one. In this age where greed defines all three races, a cleverly hidden cheese can easily net you a quick victory. When you're up against players who are better than you and there's money on the line - this becomes a very luring temptation which many Zergs decide to follow. With that said, Zergs who liked to employ this style a lot (such as Yarnc and hero and whatnot) invariably get eliminated by better players later on and really are just a waste of space.
Exhibit B: a complete and utter tosser
Dirty-zerg has one other temptation which lures players in, and it is this kind which pisses me off more than anything else. When a Zerg has his back against the wall with nothing to lose and is CLEARLY outclassed in every way, cheese and hope for the best. This attitude towards the game just ruins what is left of a series and just leaves you feeling like someone took a dump in your stomach.
The prime example of this is Jaedong during Batoo OSL. This is an OSL that Jaedong did not deserve to win. Since this is a fairly recent series, the VODs are in the spoilers below:
+ Show Spoiler [game 1] +
+ Show Spoiler [game 2] +
+ Show Spoiler [game 3] +
+ Show Spoiler [game 4] +
+ Show Spoiler [game 5] +
Once Jaedong went down 0-2, something clicked in his head and he must have thought "oh well, mayaswell 2hatch muta to have some fun and make the most of things" and then won the next three games because of it. Yes I understand 2 hatch muta is a legitimate strategy, but it was the easy way out and games 3-4-5 sucked because of it. Fantasy played a better tournament throughout and had the series in the bag, but Jaedong resorted to dirty-zerg to weasel Fantasy out of an OSL victory.
Jaedong may be the better player any other day of the week, and he is certainly the better player today. But on the night of that final, Fantasy was the superior player and when Jaedong was backed against the wall he resorted to the lowest tricks in the book to win. As a small aside, it frustrates me that Terran and Protoss do not have this opportunity against Zerg - so if a Zerg has a bad day he can still cheese his way to a win, but if a Terran has a bad day he gets 0-3'd.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/Batoo_Final/jaedong.png) Destroying players by any means necessary
And that brings us to Effort vs Flash and why Effort still sucks. Once again we have a valiant Terran player who played a far better tournament than the Zerg, who went on to play better games than the Zerg in the final, only to get lamed out of the final by a skill-less Zerg.
Okay, Flash made mistakes in the final - but because of the style that Effort played in those games (dirty-zerg) those mistakes were game deciding as opposed to game influencing like the usually are. Games 3 and 4 were basically Flash moving out against Effort (who is preparing an all-in attack) and getting caught out of position twice and losing. While game 5 is speedling lameness. You cannot seriously sit down and assess all 5 games and tell me that Flash was the inferior player during the series, not by a long shot.
What pisses me off the most, is that the OSL final lasted for hours but the last three games took a combined total time of about 30mins. Just like Pusan vs July. What an utter slap in the face to all the SC fans out there wanting to see an amazing 3rd, 4th or even a 5th game. Just one of those going into a late game where Effort won would have legitimized his victory by so much (but hey, he wouldn't have won anyway lol). Playing the dirty-zerg style is an insult to anyone who loves this game.
Even further, Effort did not even deserve to be in the final!! Recall the night of horrific regames? Effort looked so so soooo bad during that night. He hasn't even looked much better since to be perfectly honest, he just keeps keep using dirty tactics and getting lucky. Seriously, Effort is the worst kind of Zerg there is and him and all others like him should just retire and play SC2 (it's probably more suited to their talents, or lack of).
Expect Effort to drop out of the next OSL in the Ro16 0-3. He doesn't deserve anything else.
----- ON THE BRIGHTER SIDE OF SC LAND -----
Jaedong has completely evolved into well rounded Zerg. His preparation for BoX series recently has been phenomenal. Just look at the builds he prepared for his last final - he prepared super greedy builds which deep tactical insight. He's not preparing cheap all in builds with no care for the quality of the game he produces, he's doing builds which make for excellent games (assuming his opponent keeps up).
Flash on the other hand is still the best (just) progamer in the universe. So he lost to some cheesy Zerg through some uncharacteristic mistakes, big deal. He's still going to play utterly amazing games and Flash vs Jaedong is going to be the final that we all wanted and dreamed about. Even if the games are 5 cheeses, I have faith that they won't be mindless cheeses and instead deep and tactical.
  
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this is really interesting. I like the kwanro bit, it's actually eye opening.
i've always just looked at what progamers do as the final say, but this puts it in more of a critical view, very cool!
THX GREAT WRITEUP!
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Flash is too stubborn and inflexible, at least during the OSL finals.
Losing to pretty much the same strategy three times in a row is inexcusable.
Plus, at the end of the day, results are what matter the most.
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On May 28 2010 23:40 SoManyDeadLings wrote:
Flash is too stubborn and inflexible, at least during the OSL finals.
Losing to pretty much the same strategy three times in a row is inexcusable.
Plus, at the end of the day, results are what matter the most.
what about at the end of the year?
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Oh, this is so true... thank you for this article Plexa.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 28 2010 23:33 Ace wrote:
why u so mad Plexa?
He hates Z.  He subliminally likes Kwanro because he'll never take away a championship from one of the T/Ps.
As a small aside, it frustrates me that Terran and Protoss do not have this opportunity against Zerg - so if a Zerg has a bad day he can still cheese his way to a win, but if a Terran has a bad day he gets 0-3'd. This is honestly the most absurd thing you've ever written.
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Zerg players will (and should) allways throw in some cheeze in a box, just to make sure the opponents dont get to greedy. If you can throw 3 such in and win all of them, then thats a bonus for the zerg that says more about the skill of the opponent.
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well done 
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5003 Posts
I hope the game ends as Flash Bunker rushes 3x
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 28 2010 23:40 SoManyDeadLings wrote:
Flash is too stubborn and inflexible, at least during the OSL finals.
Losing to pretty much the same strategy three times in a row is inexcusable.
Plus, at the end of the day, results are what matter the most. Being caught the way he did and getting flanked the way he did doesn't mean he inflexible. I would argue he's very very unlucky to have that happen in consecutive games given how every other TvZ he's played in the past year has gone. Overall, Flash was playing an experimental series- more so than he did against Jaedong at least
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On May 28 2010 23:40 SoManyDeadLings wrote:
Losing to pretty much the same strategy three times in a row is inexcusable.
Plus, at the end of the day, results are what matter the most.
Couldn't have said it better myself. You deserve to lose if you don't adjust to your opponent, even if it is "dirty" play.
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This wouldn't feel so biased towards Zerg if the OP included players from the other races who cheesed their way to victory >.>
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Dirty zerg ? What the hell !
Does this makes Flash Dirty terran whenever he plays JD in bo3 he cheeses twice out of 3 games then?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 28 2010 23:50 colonel_west wrote:
Zerg players will (and should) allways throw in some cheeze in a box, just to make sure the opponents dont get to greedy. If you can throw 3 such in and win all of them, then thats a bonus for the zerg that says more about the skill of the opponent.
Completely disagree. Cheese can be used as a strategic weapon (e.g. Jaedong 5 pool against Fantasy). Cheese can be used to cheat us of a excellent series and make me pissed off (e.g. Jaedong against Fantasy in Batoo).
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Calgary25968 Posts
Why would you write a ridiculous title like that? To upset some people and rope them in?
Edit: Maybe it's a joke or something I didn't read to find out because the title is so absurd.
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Austin10831 Posts
I disagree profoundly with the assertion that gamers should be consciously trying to manufacture "quality games". As an audience, it's obviously preferable for us to watch pendulous momentum and artful climaxes, but this experience has to come organically from both players operating at a high level. If a game doesn't work on this level, I feel that the general "blame" (and I don't like calling it that) has to be placed on the loser. If flash had managed to deflect effort's play style, it would've been admittedly brilliant play, but he didn't. He succumbed to it, and as such, the onus for not providing high quality resistance and by extension high quality games falls on flash.
The notion of playing games with the expressed purpose of being "epic" is contrary to the driving spirit behind competition. People who compete at such a high level have to do so with singular mind and purpose. It has to be over-riding and all consuming.
If you're in the world series finals for baseball, with the game tied and a man on third, you're going to bunt or sacrifice-fly ball to bring him in and score a run. You're not going to swing away and try to hit a home run, even though it might be more of an "epic" way to win a game, certainly moreso that bunting. You do this because you're playing to win, and playing percentages. I think that's what effort was doing. Despite his play style in the last three games being technically considered more of a "risky" style, I think it provided him with the best chance to win, and a much higher odds of winning than by trying to win three consecutive games with a standard style while being down 0-2. He was playing to win, and he won. He did his job. The fact that the games weren't epic is simply not his fault, and it certainly shouldn't count as a mark against him.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 28 2010 23:59 IrT4nkz wrote:
This wouldn't feel so biased towards Zerg if the OP included players from the other races who cheesed their way to victory >.>
There are considerably less players that do that. Indeed, none that have ever won starleague that's for sure lol. It's more difficult to name them because they get eliminated in the prelims. However, Backho managed to cheese his way to the OSL semis (including cheesing jaedong out of the prelims) and he sucks (decent pvp though). Cheesy terrans are Terrans like Sync but who the hell remembers sync lol.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:03 Chill wrote:
Why would you write a ridiculous title like that? To upset some people and rope them in?
Edit: Maybe it's a joke or something I didn't read to find out because the title is so absurd.
Because Effort is bad.
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Calgary25968 Posts
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
>.> Plexa
It was a nice writeup though, even though you seem mad
It's okay you're cute.
I'm with BroOd on this one, the progamers aren't supposed to play to satisfy us. Hell, some people like watching the cheese more. Jaedong 5pooling against Calm in the semis drew a hundred "LOLWTF" statements in about 30 seconds, and sometimes it's nice to have a little change.
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I wonder what would happened if you combined Plexa and Hot_Bid's respective stubborness into one giant ball of unwavering willpower.
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YellOw called. He wants a bunker-denied championship back.
I'm not even sure what you're defining as a "Dirty-Zerg" style. Hydra bust vs. Protoss? That's either a standard timing attack or cheesy as hell, depending whether you're the Z or the P. x-hatch muta? Standard standard standard. Zerg has the potential to just make a crapton of stuff and run you over, at almost any point of the game, and that has to be accounted for.
I don't even like EffOrt, and there's not much question that Flash is the better player overall, but I have no idea what you're complaining about. After losing to the first all-in, Flash should have sat back in game 4 and played safe - there is no better late-game manager in Starcraft right now than Flash - and the title was his. Instead he went for aggression again and got out-aggressed and lost. Flash got out-mind-gamed in the last three games of that series, regardless of who was playing better.
Also: JD vs fantasy the wrong player won? wth? I loved fantasy's creativity, and yes Jaedong was lucky as hell to scout the fac in game three, but Jaedong's deflection of everything was phenomenal.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:04 BroOd wrote:
I disagree profoundly with the assertion that gamers should be consciously trying to manufacture "quality games". As an audience, it's obviously preferable for us to watch pendulous momentum and artful climaxes, but this experience has to come organically from both players operating at a high level. If a game doesn't work on this level, I feel that the general "blame" (and I don't like calling it that) has to be placed on the loser. If flash had managed to deflect effort's play style, it would've been admittedly brilliant play, but he didn't. He succumbed to it, and as such, the onus for not providing high quality resistance and by extension high quality games falls on flash.
The notion of playing games with the expressed purpose of being "epic" is contrary to the driving spirit behind competition. People who compete at such a high level have to do so with singular mind and purpose. It has to be over-riding and all consuming.
If you're in the world series finals for baseball, with the game tied and a man on third, you're going to bunt or sacrifice-fly ball to bring him in and score a run. You're not going to swing away and try to hit a home run, even though it might be more of an "epic" way to win a game, certainly moreso that bunting. You do this because you're playing to win, and playing percentages. I think that's what effort was doing. Despite his play style in the last three games being technically considered more of a "risky" style, I think it provided him with the best chance to win, and a much higher odds of winning than by trying to win three consecutive games with a standard style while being down 0-2. He was playing to win, and he won. He did his job. The fact that the games weren't epic is simply not his fault, and it certainly shouldn't count as a mark against him. But at the same time can you acknowledge the difference between simply cheesing and doing something creative?
e.g. Boxer's x3 bunk rush. Massively anticlimatic for the fans. Absolutely outstanding from a strategic point of view. Still an epic series imo. Jaedong 5 pooling fantasy. Massively anticlimatic, but again, outstanding from a strategic point of view. What about July vs Best? Same deal.
The difference here is that efforts cheeses were uninspired and honestly, just lucky.
At the end of the day, Flash is better than Effort and I stand by that claim.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:10 flamewheel91 wrote:>.> Plexa It was a nice writeup though, even though you seem mad It's okay you're cute. I'm with BroOd on this one, the progamers aren't supposed to play to satisfy us. Hell, some people like watching the cheese more. Jaedong 5pooling against Calm in the semis drew a hundred "LOLWTF" statements in about 30 seconds, and sometimes it's nice to have a little change.
Yes that was a brilliant move. Do that three games in a row and that's fucking retarded and has zero indication of who is the better player or the more deserving player.
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I'm happy to see players do non standard things because they know other ways to win. And I'm sad others don't share this view on strategic gaming. There's very little that pisses me off more than a disdainful attitude towards so called "cheese". Even using the word cheese pisses me off. It's a word created by people incapable dealing with strategic variance. And thus incapable of playing Broodwar.
To call an OSL winner bad is a standard that goes beyond all reason no matter how he achieved it.
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Flash moved out without medics in game 3, let his 1-base drop play get scouted in game 4, and went 14 cc on a 2-player map in game 5.
On May 29 2010 00:11 Plexa wrote:
At the end of the day, Flash is better than Effort and I stand by that claim.
No shit. But Flash played terribly for 3 games in a row, EffOrt took advantage of that, and Flash lost.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:15 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'm happy to see players do non standard things because they know other ways to win. And I'm sad others don't share this view on strategic gaming. There's very little that pisses me off more than a disdainful attitude towards so called "cheese". Even using the word cheese pisses me off. It's a word created by people incapable dealing with strategic variance. And thus incapable of playing Broodwar. Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break?
On May 29 2010 00:17 jalstar wrote:
Flash moved out without medics in game 3, let his 1-base drop play get scouted in game 4, and went 14 cc on a 2-player map in game 5.
Yeah, EffOrt is bad.
Yeah. Ignore the 95% of Flash's other TvZ's where he doesn't make those foolish mistakes. Flash is human he's going to make mistakes at some point. If Flash replayed Effort right now I would still call a 3-0 for Flash - and I would think most of TL would still favor Flash over Effort.
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2hatch is easier to secure a 3rd gas. Terrans are following Flash and pressurize the zerg on his 3rd gas, not doing 2hatch is not gonna help the zerg, or at the least they sacrificed their power for the defiler tech..
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I agree that Effort used a speedling/muta all-in to beat Flash in games 3 and 5.
But I have to think that "Starsense", skill, whatever you want to call it, was involved for Effort in game 4. Consider:
1) He sent his first OL to scout the middle, when there is no starting position in the middle.
2) He scouted with a single zergling 10 minutes into the game, confirming that Flash was going to follow his BBS with a dropship attempt to finish the game.
3) He anticipated and deflected the double dropship by withdrawing his containing hydralisks. Again, he couldn't know exactly what was coming, but had to guess, and guess correctly, at what Flash would do.
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Eh, Effort was (is) the inferior player, in starcraft the inferior player is almost supposed to cheese via either eccon or early mass units. Which he also did. Good for him that it worked out, unlucky/sad for Flash.
That said I am really sad he didnt open vulture the fifth game as well :/
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Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break?
Why wouldn't it deserve the same amount of respect. That stuff is all done through mindgames and reactionary play on how your opponent plays.
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Austin10831 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:11 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:04 BroOd wrote:
I disagree profoundly with the assertion that gamers should be consciously trying to manufacture "quality games". As an audience, it's obviously preferable for us to watch pendulous momentum and artful climaxes, but this experience has to come organically from both players operating at a high level. If a game doesn't work on this level, I feel that the general "blame" (and I don't like calling it that) has to be placed on the loser. If flash had managed to deflect effort's play style, it would've been admittedly brilliant play, but he didn't. He succumbed to it, and as such, the onus for not providing high quality resistance and by extension high quality games falls on flash.
The notion of playing games with the expressed purpose of being "epic" is contrary to the driving spirit behind competition. People who compete at such a high level have to do so with singular mind and purpose. It has to be over-riding and all consuming.
If you're in the world series finals for baseball, with the game tied and a man on third, you're going to bunt or sacrifice-fly ball to bring him in and score a run. You're not going to swing away and try to hit a home run, even though it might be more of an "epic" way to win a game, certainly moreso that bunting. You do this because you're playing to win, and playing percentages. I think that's what effort was doing. Despite his play style in the last three games being technically considered more of a "risky" style, I think it provided him with the best chance to win, and a much higher odds of winning than by trying to win three consecutive games with a standard style while being down 0-2. He was playing to win, and he won. He did his job. The fact that the games weren't epic is simply not his fault, and it certainly shouldn't count as a mark against him. But at the same time can you acknowledge the difference between simply cheesing and doing something creative? e.g. Boxer's x3 bunk rush. Massively anticlimatic for the fans. Absolutely outstanding from a strategic point of view. Still an epic series imo. Jaedong 5 pooling fantasy. Massively anticlimatic, but again, outstanding from a strategic point of view. What about July vs Best? Same deal. The difference here is that efforts cheeses were uninspired and honestly, just lucky. At the end of the day, Flash is better than Effort and I stand by that claim.
Again, I think if any fault's to be distributed for those games, it has to be on Flash. Was effort lucky to catch the MM moving out with his lings? Yes, he was lucky Flash didn't scout, and lucky Flash had his medics out of place. The "luck" in that situation could've easily been nullified by Flash, but it wasn't. Similarly, was effort lucky flash didn't block well on match point? To a degree, but with proper scouting and reaction, that runby could've been blocked and the dam never would've broken. It would've been great play. The fact that it never happened is Flash's fault, not effort's.
Is Flash a better player than Effort? I'd be inclined to say yes. Unfortunately, that's largely irrelevant in almost every type of competition. The better player doesn't always win and, as they say, that's why they play the games.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break? Why wouldn't it deserve the same amount of respect. That stuff is all done through mindgames and reactionary play on how your opponent plays.
To me it seems like a cop out.
"Okay, I've got one game to take off of Flash. So I'll resort to a tactic which 100% relies on him making a mistake since I have no other way of being able to beat him and maybe I'll get lucky"
It's a soft loss and I'm sure Flash knows that the next 90 times he plays Effort he's going to wipe the floor with him.On May 29 2010 00:21 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:11 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:04 BroOd wrote:
I disagree profoundly with the assertion that gamers should be consciously trying to manufacture "quality games". As an audience, it's obviously preferable for us to watch pendulous momentum and artful climaxes, but this experience has to come organically from both players operating at a high level. If a game doesn't work on this level, I feel that the general "blame" (and I don't like calling it that) has to be placed on the loser. If flash had managed to deflect effort's play style, it would've been admittedly brilliant play, but he didn't. He succumbed to it, and as such, the onus for not providing high quality resistance and by extension high quality games falls on flash.
The notion of playing games with the expressed purpose of being "epic" is contrary to the driving spirit behind competition. People who compete at such a high level have to do so with singular mind and purpose. It has to be over-riding and all consuming.
If you're in the world series finals for baseball, with the game tied and a man on third, you're going to bunt or sacrifice-fly ball to bring him in and score a run. You're not going to swing away and try to hit a home run, even though it might be more of an "epic" way to win a game, certainly moreso that bunting. You do this because you're playing to win, and playing percentages. I think that's what effort was doing. Despite his play style in the last three games being technically considered more of a "risky" style, I think it provided him with the best chance to win, and a much higher odds of winning than by trying to win three consecutive games with a standard style while being down 0-2. He was playing to win, and he won. He did his job. The fact that the games weren't epic is simply not his fault, and it certainly shouldn't count as a mark against him. But at the same time can you acknowledge the difference between simply cheesing and doing something creative? e.g. Boxer's x3 bunk rush. Massively anticlimatic for the fans. Absolutely outstanding from a strategic point of view. Still an epic series imo. Jaedong 5 pooling fantasy. Massively anticlimatic, but again, outstanding from a strategic point of view. What about July vs Best? Same deal. The difference here is that efforts cheeses were uninspired and honestly, just lucky. At the end of the day, Flash is better than Effort and I stand by that claim. Again, I think if any fault's to be distributed for those games, it has to be on Flash. Was effort lucky to catch the MM moving out with his lings? Yes, he was lucky Flash didn't scout, and lucky Flash had his medics out of place. The "luck" in that situation could've easily been nullified by Flash, but it wasn't. Similarly, was effort lucky flash didn't block well on match point? To a degree, but with proper scouting and reaction, that runby could've been blocked and the dam never would've broken. It would've been great play. The fact that it never happened is Flash's fault, not effort's. Is Flash a better player than Effort? I'd be inclined to say yes. Unfortunately, that's largely irrelevant in almost every type of competition. The better player doesn't always win and, as they say, that's why they play the games. Okay so we agree, Flash is good. So does winning the OSL make effort good? That's the REAL question.
Based on how he played in this league, he's still bad in my book.
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What is three hatch spire five hatch hydras to you if not innovative?
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So basically, you're complaining that there are greedy zergs, some zergs that cheese and that some of them actually perform some of the time?
If a zerg can get into the MSL finals by playing what you consider to be cheese, then he DESERVES it, "cheesing" is as much a strategy as "greed". And calling these players a waste of space is wrong. And as you said if they are not the greatest players, they will promptly get eliminated, however one does not get to the MSL or OSL finals by cheesing every single game, there has to be some kind of mechanics there, you make it sound as if 6pool = gg, it does not.
I really fail to see the point in this Blog, you just whine throughout the whole thing.
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Is this a pre-emptive PR justification? I don't think there are many people who would complain about Flash being ranked above Effort, but considering Shine was ranked #4 while meeting all your requirements about being a "dirty Zerg" or whatever, leaving Effort out of the top 5 would show a lot of bias.
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Cannot disagree with you more.
If you're in a Starleague final you do whatever is necessary to win. Fuck the viewing pleasure of the audience...who cares when you have fame and fortune at stake? If you make your games enjoyable then more power to you...but that's just a speck of icing on a damn huge cake. After all, it comes down to winning games and that determines these players salaries and affects their future and winnings for the team. Don't think you're entitled to (as a spectator) epic four hour 3-2 slugfests in every Starleague final.
Your argument claiming that Fantasy was a better player during the night of the Batoo OSL and that Jaedong didn't deserve to win pisses me off. Jaedong found a huge weakness in Fantasy's mech build and capitalized it on games 3, 4, and 5. It was clear from watching the series that Jaedong learned from games 1 and 2 and smartly countered in the following games. How is that cheese? If you were Jaedong that night would you have thought "fuck this, I'm down two games, but as long as the spectators have fun, then we're all winners! ^_^." No, Jaedong was there that night to win.
And you seem a little bitter that Flash got roflstomped in the OSL. Too bad it's gonna happen tonight again.
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On May 29 2010 00:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:15 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'm happy to see players do non standard things because they know other ways to win. And I'm sad others don't share this view on strategic gaming. There's very little that pisses me off more than a disdainful attitude towards so called "cheese". Even using the word cheese pisses me off. It's a word created by people incapable dealing with strategic variance. And thus incapable of playing Broodwar. Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break?
Is losing to 2-hatch speedling any less of a loss then losing to ultra-ling? Flash got greedy, Effort made him pay. For him to pass up Flash handing him the game on a silver platter in order to make the game more awesome would be, frankly, retarded.
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I don't get why you would fault Effort for a) deflecting a proxy rax and b) killing a 14 (or 13?) CC with speedlings. The proxy rax was a risk for Flash that didn't pay off. I don't see how you can hate on Effort for that. And in game 5, did you really expect Effort, or any other zerg for that matter, to just sit there and let Flash fast expo? You wanted him to just go "Screw it I'll play with an economic disadvantage" against Flash? I don't think it's reasonable for any zerg to do anything but aggressive play in that situation.
Basically, Flash took two huge risks that didn't pay off, resulting in a crappy series. And now it's Effort's fault?
Only thing I agree with is that Effort is terrible and is C- at best and will go 0-3 in group stages
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Austin10831 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:18 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break? Why wouldn't it deserve the same amount of respect. That stuff is all done through mindgames and reactionary play on how your opponent plays. To me it seems like a cop out. "Okay, I've got one game to take off of Flash. So I'll resort to a tactic which 100% relies on him making a mistake since I have no other way of being able to beat him and maybe I'll get lucky" It's a soft loss and I'm sure Flash knows that the next 90 times he plays Effort he's going to wipe the floor with him. Well since effort won the one game he prepared for, I'm not sure the theoretical next 90 are all that important.On May 29 2010 00:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:21 BroOd wrote:On May 29 2010 00:11 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:04 BroOd wrote:
I disagree profoundly with the assertion that gamers should be consciously trying to manufacture "quality games". As an audience, it's obviously preferable for us to watch pendulous momentum and artful climaxes, but this experience has to come organically from both players operating at a high level. If a game doesn't work on this level, I feel that the general "blame" (and I don't like calling it that) has to be placed on the loser. If flash had managed to deflect effort's play style, it would've been admittedly brilliant play, but he didn't. He succumbed to it, and as such, the onus for not providing high quality resistance and by extension high quality games falls on flash.
The notion of playing games with the expressed purpose of being "epic" is contrary to the driving spirit behind competition. People who compete at such a high level have to do so with singular mind and purpose. It has to be over-riding and all consuming.
If you're in the world series finals for baseball, with the game tied and a man on third, you're going to bunt or sacrifice-fly ball to bring him in and score a run. You're not going to swing away and try to hit a home run, even though it might be more of an "epic" way to win a game, certainly moreso that bunting. You do this because you're playing to win, and playing percentages. I think that's what effort was doing. Despite his play style in the last three games being technically considered more of a "risky" style, I think it provided him with the best chance to win, and a much higher odds of winning than by trying to win three consecutive games with a standard style while being down 0-2. He was playing to win, and he won. He did his job. The fact that the games weren't epic is simply not his fault, and it certainly shouldn't count as a mark against him. But at the same time can you acknowledge the difference between simply cheesing and doing something creative? e.g. Boxer's x3 bunk rush. Massively anticlimatic for the fans. Absolutely outstanding from a strategic point of view. Still an epic series imo. Jaedong 5 pooling fantasy. Massively anticlimatic, but again, outstanding from a strategic point of view. What about July vs Best? Same deal. The difference here is that efforts cheeses were uninspired and honestly, just lucky. At the end of the day, Flash is better than Effort and I stand by that claim. Again, I think if any fault's to be distributed for those games, it has to be on Flash. Was effort lucky to catch the MM moving out with his lings? Yes, he was lucky Flash didn't scout, and lucky Flash had his medics out of place. The "luck" in that situation could've easily been nullified by Flash, but it wasn't. Similarly, was effort lucky flash didn't block well on match point? To a degree, but with proper scouting and reaction, that runby could've been blocked and the dam never would've broken. It would've been great play. The fact that it never happened is Flash's fault, not effort's. Is Flash a better player than Effort? I'd be inclined to say yes. Unfortunately, that's largely irrelevant in almost every type of competition. The better player doesn't always win and, as they say, that's why they play the games. Okay so we agree, Flash is good. So does winning the OSL make effort good? That's the REAL question. Based on how he played in this league, he's still bad in my book.
Yes, he's good because he set out to win a series and he won. Playing up to arbitrary standards isn't a reliable metric to gauge how good a player is. He won a starleague, and won a finals against one of the best players in the world! You might not like him or how he plays, but to say he's bad is, in my opinion, somewhat disingenuous.
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You disregard that Flash played like a complete robotic idiot in that series. Without changing his builds or his mind during the series. And I can say the same about Fantasy, hey maybe it has something to do with the race and the mu itself? Zerg has to take risks and react accordingly. Flash did not play up to par in this series, nowhere near his level at all.
Game 1: Strong mech build, good push timing from Flash, effort tried to break the push too hastily and lost.
In game 2 the push was pretty terrible and there was no micro involved, he ended up losing 1.5 groups for 2 sunks, he let effort get away with 3 base 3hat before pool, sure he won because his gameplay is much superior and he outmultitasked effort in every other way, but give Jaedong an advantage like that and the game would be over.
Game 3: Nothing really wrong with what Flash has done here, his reaction time was a little off, I'm not sure if he had stim or not, but in that situation effort's gambit worked. And even if Flash did not push, the all in has two parts, and the mutas are hell to defend on FS, especially with Effort's strategy, you don't even mention that effortl ured him out by suiciding some lings.
Game 4: Flash friggin did not block his ramp even when he saw lings coming into his base.... That is not a mistake you make in the finals, and it simply cost him any chance of coming back, Fantasy and Canata have come back from situations like these before, but Flash did not block his ramp, lost his rines, which led to the ling scouting his main.
Game 5: Flash shouldve done this homework, Kwanro used the same build before and did it in the same way, it looked like a Yarnc style super fast mutalisks, but it ended up like Kwanro's build vs Light on match point, and I think he should've prepared for it and scouted better imo.
Effort is worse than Flash, we can all agree to that. But Flash did not deserve to win that series, "Robot" Terrans do not deserve to win series as much as "dirty" zergs dont. If you cant defend aggressive builds you shouldnt be doing the build you are doing anyways.
The funny thing is, the same style Zergs are using ZvT, Flash is currently using TvP, being extremely greedy while scouting well and abusing your opponent, and also using super aggressive pushes to break your opponent quickly. Granted, he scouts more than a normal Zerg does in ZvT, but his style is still risky.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:23 SuperArc wrote:
What is three hatch spire five hatch hydras to you if not innovative?
JulyZerg developed that on Andromeda so yea. I'd call that playing the trends  (I'm sure I've written about that too)
This article has two sides to it really. The first side basically is me angry that Flash lost the finals (I get it, it was his fault etc). The second side is basically saying, despite Effort winning the Starleague, he's still not a very good player. He didn't win it because he was better than Flash, he won because he got lucky (at every step in the competition).
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United States22883 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:10 flamewheel91 wrote:>.> Plexa It was a nice writeup though, even though you seem mad It's okay you're cute. I'm with BroOd on this one, the progamers aren't supposed to play to satisfy us. Hell, some people like watching the cheese more. Jaedong 5pooling against Calm in the semis drew a hundred "LOLWTF" statements in about 30 seconds, and sometimes it's nice to have a little change. Yes that was a brilliant move. Do that three games in a row and that's fucking retarded and has zero indication of who is the better player or the more deserving player.
How can you possibly write this after calling EVER 2004 a brilliant move?
And don't forget the paths each player took to the championship. It's not like Effort didn't pay his dues, either.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:33 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:12 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:10 flamewheel91 wrote:>.> Plexa It was a nice writeup though, even though you seem mad It's okay you're cute. I'm with BroOd on this one, the progamers aren't supposed to play to satisfy us. Hell, some people like watching the cheese more. Jaedong 5pooling against Calm in the semis drew a hundred "LOLWTF" statements in about 30 seconds, and sometimes it's nice to have a little change. Yes that was a brilliant move. Do that three games in a row and that's fucking retarded and has zero indication of who is the better player or the more deserving player. How can you possibly write this after calling EVER 2004 a brilliant move? Massive difference between 5pool and bunker rush imo. Bunk rush spawned an entire generation of TvZ strategy (thanks largely to midas) while 5pool is just lulz and would never seriously be taken as a winning ZvZ strategy for more than a week.
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I might sort of buy the argument if Flash didn't 14 CC in a game 5 on a 2 player map. Who does that? Also, like Terran doesn't cheese? Lol.
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you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
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On May 29 2010 00:09 Chill wrote:
0 stars.
Agreed. I defy anyone but a butt-hurt fanboy to watch Effort's late-game play and tell me he's not an artist.
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A cheap win is still a win.
Flash has been guilty taking his share of cheap wins. In fact, Flash lost the OSL finals partly due to the fact that he tried to seal the deal by tossing the coin in the air, and expecting to let lady luck be on his side at least once out of three attempts.
1) Game 3: Flash pushes out BEFORE having medics, trying to catch Effort off-guard, after stopping Effort's speedling harass with minimal losses with no bunkers. He deserved to lose.
2) Game 4: BBS? Effort saw the low blow coming and proceeded to build order rape Flash.
3) Game 5: Jesus, if you want the start off with the greediest build around, at least show more composure against cheese. Flash expected Effort to play catch up, and failed spectacularly once Effort stepped outside of his comfort zone.
I have no sympathy for Flash. He was every bit as cheap and dirty as Effort. It doesn't matter if Flash was the superior player that day. He let luck be the deciding factor after taking a comfortable lead, and paid heavily for it.
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On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
+100000000000
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On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
wow I am agreeing 100% with Idra
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i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid.
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So hypocritical it's amazing.
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On May 29 2010 00:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:15 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'm happy to see players do non standard things because they know other ways to win. And I'm sad others don't share this view on strategic gaming. There's very little that pisses me off more than a disdainful attitude towards so called "cheese". Even using the word cheese pisses me off. It's a word created by people incapable dealing with strategic variance. And thus incapable of playing Broodwar. Again, I give credit where it's due. Does preparing a 2hatch speedling bust into 2hatch mutalisk deserve the same amount of respect as a well thought out drop break? In StarCraft, you have this so-called "standard" play but, you would want to go down the path of "standard" when your opponent would also go down that path. If you can punish him for doing a 14CC, punish him. If I made 8 lings out of 12 hatch 11pool against your 1 rax FE, I have to make sure that I'd use those 8 lings to make my opponent sacrifice his economy (building a bunken, blocking with more scv's, etc) If you don't invest enough money for your army or defenses, you'd gain a bit economic advantage which you can use to gain more in the long run. Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:17 jalstar wrote:
Flash moved out without medics in game 3, let his 1-base drop play get scouted in game 4, and went 14 cc on a 2-player map in game 5.
Yeah, EffOrt is bad. Yeah. Ignore the 95% of Flash's other TvZ's where he doesn't make those foolish mistakes. Flash is human he's going to make mistakes at some point. If Flash replayed Effort right now I would still call a 3-0 for Flash - and I would think most of TL would still favor Flash over Effort.
You can always wonder about the "what-could-haves" in your mind but, you couldn't just avoid reality when it's already looking directly into your eyes. It's because Flash likes to save more for his macro that he's basically trying to live on a knife's edge (basically like how Savior play). You try to defend with forces as little as possible so, you can gain a huge econ advantage. But, then it's basically, one wrong move, one huge disadvantage.
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IdrA backing up his boy! MAH BOI.
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On May 29 2010 00:02 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 23:50 colonel_west wrote:
Zerg players will (and should) allways throw in some cheeze in a box, just to make sure the opponents dont get to greedy. If you can throw 3 such in and win all of them, then thats a bonus for the zerg that says more about the skill of the opponent. Completely disagree. Cheese can be used as a strategic weapon (e.g. Jaedong 5 pool against Fantasy). Cheese can be used to cheat us of a excellent series and make me pissed off (e.g. Jaedong against Fantasy in Batoo).
wow u serious? fantasy is like THE dirty terran back then, all he did was use builds he didnt make himself, proxy barracks, fast vulture. fantasy had 0 skill and only won due to opponents fucking up and not knowing how to react to his builds.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid.
I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him.
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United States1719 Posts
the first thing that popped into my head when i read this was all the times great players were bunker rushed out of important series
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I'm joining the "you are wrong this time, Plexa" bandwagon. It reminds me of this, another dark chapter in Plexa literature:
Boxer Should Quit Starcraft
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=76552
I think Effort is as worthy a champion as any other. If dirty zerg really is as dirty as you say and Effort only has the dirty zerg leg to stand on, he wouldn't be standing in the picture with the OSL trophy.
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On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid. I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him.
He is still respected enough that Flash is practicing mainly with him for the finals...
You do remember that Flash started out like this too? Hell, his finals vs Stork was brilliant but even more gimmicky than Efforts. You can't see into the future, noone can.
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Pff... even more flaming, now I'm starting to feel bad for thinking like Plexa lol...
Too much hate I guess... | -_-|
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lol, honestly Plexa this is the worst commentary I've read in a long time. Flash made the last 2 games bad, not Effort. You want him to sit back and watch Flash 14CC when he has 2 hatcheries, enough gas for speed, and his pool up already? And you're saying Effort made the 4th game bad by getting cheesed? Really?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:56 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid. I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him. He is still respected enough that Flash is practicing mainly with him for the finals... You do remember that Flash started out like this too? Hell, his finals vs Stork was brilliant but even more gimmicky than Efforts. You can't see into the future, noone can.
What? Flash's bacchus win was anything but gimmicky... Again, that stuff was revolutionary and influenced a generation of TvP.
Flash when he first started out, in Daum, was gimmicky. He wasn't ready for the big time and it showed. If Flash was still playing like he was back in Daum there would have been no possible way for him to have won Bacchus that's for sure.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
This blog seems designed to annoy me.
But I'll take the high road. Haters gonna hate.
+ Show Spoiler +
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United States22883 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid.
CJ fanboy imo
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And I was hoping this was troll post I mean sincerely. Even assuming Effort used so-called "dirty tactic", it is within Flash's fault for not adapting to such common "dirty strategies" three times in a row? And Effort was quite good to pull it off?
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Since your blog is basically a rant, I am not too concerned about your controversial statements and rather found them amusing.
However, the way you make it sound like game 4 of Jaedong vs Fantasy and game 4 of Effort vs Flash were "Dirty Zerg"-play is really not helping your argument. Fantasy built a proxy fac (which Jaedong scouted) and Flash tried to BBS (and got scouted). Of course they adjusted their game-plan accordingly. If they would have played "Dirty Zerg" regardless we cannot know.
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I love EffOrt. Just saying.
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I can just recall the enormous amount of times flash has done bunker rushes on 2nd hatch or pressured 14 nexus. Effort knew he stood a better chance at taking him out early game rather than go against a macro beast. The smarter strategy is to make him pay for his macro ways and early game aggressiveness despite macroing up. I feel the same you do about z "dirty" style, but with terran "macro". I get so sick of watching idra play in sc bw or sc2, because almost every game is a boring snooze fest on his part. Granted I respect great macro and love to watch games where both players are macro beasts such as jaedong and flash, but at the same time I like to watch the contrasting styles as well.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 29 2010 01:09 Malinor wrote:
Since your blog is basically a rant, I am not too concerned about your controversial statements and rather found them amusing.
However, the way you make it sound like game 4 of Jaedong vs Fantasy and game 4 of Effort vs Flash were "Dirty Zerg"-play is really not helping your argument. Fantasy built a proxy fac (which Jaedong scouted) and Flash tried to BBS (and got scouted). Of course they adjusted their game-plan accordingly. If they would have played "Dirty Zerg" regardless we cannot know.
Finally someone who gets it.
The only worthwhile thing to take from this blog is that Flash /Jaedong > Effort skillwise and Plexa watched the finals less than 3 hours ago.
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no offense, but you kinda sound like idra here
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As a small aside, it frustrates me that Terran and Protoss do not have this opportunity against Zerg - so if a Zerg has a bad day he can still cheese his way to a win, but if a Terran has a bad day he gets 0-3'd.
Seriously? What about fucking bunker rushes that doesn't even deny terran a standard continuation? And you think Effort ruind the series after adapting to 14CC and BBS cheese from Flash? This is the worst blog I've ever read. I hope it is some kind of joke.
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While it was an interesting read, I completely disagree with you. The only aim in Starcraft (or any game) is to win. If you find a way to win, you are a better player. You beat the map, the other player, and you succeeded in following the rules of Starcraft. There's not much else to it.
And using "legit strategy" as a term completely undermines any argument you have. Effort beat Flash, he was the better player on the day. Jaedong beat Fantasy because he was the better player, he BEAT him, what else is there to it?
Edit: Also, the naivety of calling cheese/dirty-zerg/whatever you are calling it, in a Starleague final a CHEAP choice, like it's some sort of blind, mindless, hope-for-the-best strategy that anyone could pull off, regardless of skill, is horrifying. I'm almost as mad as you are.
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On May 29 2010 01:03 tree.hugger wrote:This blog seems designed to annoy me. But I'll take the high road. Haters gonna hate. + Show Spoiler +
First of all I just want to say that the game where flash's monitor crashed was not in favour to any player. So bolding that game is just wierd.
Flash lost his valkyrie because his monitor crashed. It didn't crash because he lost his valkyrie.
Effort had no advantage whatsoever before Flash's monitor failed.
"Dirty zerg" is indeed effective. A player like Octzerg could get A on iccup using that style.
It doesn't really have to show that much skill, but I cannot blame effort for scouting Flash's proxy rax or chosing zergling allin vs CC first.
However to imply that Effort is better than Flash by showing these statistics is wrong.
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plexa tell me- what do you call this:
TvZ- terran goes, fake mech, fast vult, fake vult into wraith, 1 port 2 port play... Not to mention my all time fav- proxy rax, quick gas early valut early wraith play. if you don't think that shit is cheese then your so biased, i don't even know why i wasted my time reading this blog.
PvZ- protoss goes 9/9 proxy gate, cannon rush, 1 gate tech
I don't understand how you think that zerg is the only race that can cheese. terran has zerg by the balls in this days tvz. the only reason that flash lost is becuase he is a poor box player. It is a known fact- and like others have said before flash is simply a machine, not a player lol
to some how think that there is a 'bad' style of zerg to be played is ludicrous. The only zerg cheese is early pools (before 9) and some all in hydra break. nothing else comes close to some of the BS the other races can pull against zerg.
Stop whining because your hero lost.
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All I got out of this thread really..."QQ" "My daddy can still beat up your daddy even though he got fired!"
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On May 29 2010 01:14 dangots0ul wrote:
no offense, but you kinda sound like idra here
Except that Idra reacted like this
On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
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On May 29 2010 01:01 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:56 samachking wrote:On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid. I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him. He is still respected enough that Flash is practicing mainly with him for the finals... You do remember that Flash started out like this too? Hell, his finals vs Stork was brilliant but even more gimmicky than Efforts. You can't see into the future, noone can. What? Flash's bacchus win was anything but gimmicky... Again, that stuff was revolutionary and influenced a generation of TvP. Flash when he first started out, in Daum, was gimmicky. He wasn't ready for the big time and it showed. If Flash was still playing like he was back in Daum there would have been no possible way for him to have won Bacchus that's for sure.
Effort don't have to do something revolutionary, he just followed the simple guidelines to win, abuse your opponent's weakness to win. That's how you win in every sport, cover up your weakness, abuse your opponent's weaknesses. Flash has flaws in his game and didn't cover it enough. I would say that Effort prepared better for this finals than Flash did. He watched how Flash plays, knows that his weakness is his greediness.
If Flash opened 14CC, I'd consider that economic cheese, trying to gain a huge econ advantage from the start and you can only get this HUGE econ advantage if your opponent hadn't scouted you early enough to react properly or hadn't he just reacted properly to force/stall your macro.
Also, about the Jaedong vs Fantasy Bacchus OSL Finals. I'd say that finals just cemented my belief on Jaedong as the new hope for Zerg at that time. He comes prepared for the finals but, his opponent able to pull of a new ZvT build and managed to get the first two games. But then, being the great Zerg he was, Jaedong was able to instantly pull a counter. He understood that the standard 3-hatch muta would have really a hard time against Fanta Mech due to its slow start and therefore, he tried to fight with a better build winning against Fantasy's new strategy. I would say that using that build, Fantasy had practiced that build against 3-hatch or 2-hatch but, still Jaedong still proved that he was better than Fantasy.
Jaedong was able to turn the tide of 0-2 to a 3-2 win due to his flexibility and spontaneity while Flash lost 2-3 from a 2-0 lead because he wasn't able to somehow change his playstyle of being greedy. Flash's greediness helps him to be the monster he was but, that's his Achilles' heel too.
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I disagree with pretty much everything in the original post. There is one exception though: I agree that Effort win was a fluke, flash is the better player and should have won easily.
I think the Plexa's mindset is that every aggressive zerg build is a cheese or something close to that. That is silly. 9 pools speedlings or 2 hatch mutas are not cheese. They are aggressive builds but they do not depend on immediate quick, dirty victories. They have transitions into mid and late game, they are not all in. It's Flash's own fault that he could not defend against those strategies, both in his series against Effort as well as his series against Jaedong last season.
Plexa seems to think that everyone should play greedy and calls those innovative strategies. I think that those greedy build are the boring ones to watch. And one quick reminder, there are economical cheeses too. Not every cheese is a quick rush. For example, 12 cc, 12 nexus, three hatches before pool.
Flash was the one to cheese on that series against Effort: both on the set in which he did the scouted BBS and the last set on match point. Not the contrary, Effort didn't do a single cheese or risky build, he was the one that played standard.
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totally agree on Fantasy vs Jaedong. Why on earth should Jaedong try to win in the most efficient way? JK dur dur dur fucking retard plexa. and effort won by luck against Flash? hmm... no. he picked strategies that punished flash... not "oh man thank god i built those speedlings on accident." "oh sick! my overlord randomly guessed the right way! What luck!" fuck off and accept that flash lost. and effort won. why is it so hard for people to just admit defeat. 9/10 times now days on b.net i get at the end... "Did you hack? You hacked faggot." Nice hacking man" //// NO you fucking lost get over it.
User was temp banned for this post.
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is awesome32269 Posts
flame bait.
"rant rant rant ridiculous claim"
EffOrt got ridiculous winning streaks months ago. He took CJ to playoffs and won on matches with lots of pressure on. And now he won OSL after being 0-2 down. It's not EffOrt's fault that flash couldn't cope with his strategies. EffOrt strategies dealt with Flash's weaknesses the same July did back in the day.
And yes, Flash was the inferior player, because he didn't change his mindset in all the series (maybe only in game 4?). If action got to the finals against any Terran, do you think they would let him reach hive easily? No, they would do all sort of dirty Terran strategies to kill Action before he got to hive. It's not being bad, it's outsmarting your opponents.
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On May 29 2010 01:44 OneFierceZealot wrote:
totally agree on Fantasy vs Jaedong. Why on earth should Jaedong try to win in the most efficient way? JK dur dur dur fucking retard plexa. and effort won by luck against Flash? hmm... no. he picked strategies that punished flash... not "oh man thank god i built those speedlings on accident." "oh sick! my overlord randomly guessed the right way! What luck!" fuck off and accept that flash lost. and effort won. why is it so hard for people to just admit defeat. 9/10 times now days on b.net i get at the end... "Did you hack? You hacked faggot." Nice hacking man" //// NO you fucking lost get over it.
Relax guy, you are frothing at the mouth.
I do agree with the title though. Effort IS still bad.
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On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:43 IdrA wrote:
i mean seriously if anyone hates cheese its me but you see him punish proxy raxes and 12 cc's and disregard the fact that he had an 80%+ win rate through proleague for most of a season, carried cj through 2 rounds of ace matches in the playoffs, the vast majority of that through absolutely unmatched late game management. and then you try to make the same point about jaedong who quite possibly has the best multitasking of all time because he punished fantasy's tech build bullshit?
god damn you're stupid. I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy. But I just don't see Effort continually posting results against Jaedong, Flash and other good gamers with the way he played in this starleague. Flash and Jaedong are still leaps and bounds ahead of him.
those 2 are leaps and bounds ahead of everyone, and effort is arguably the closest. watch every game hes played outside of the winners league time period this season. ya, when people play stupid vs him he can punish it. just like flash bunker rushes every time someone goes 12 nex vs him, or fac cc fac rushes them if he sees them doing something gay. but for you to discount his management game just shows that the only long games youve watched him play are the 2 vs flash from the finals.
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and by 2 hatch being dirty you mean completely standard? if i recall correctly jaedong 2 hatched the games he lost in that series too.
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On May 29 2010 01:31 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 01:14 dangots0ul wrote:
no offense, but you kinda sound like idra here Except that Idra reacted like this Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
your right, i'm a fucken skillless noobie
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Idra covering up for his buddy/teammate effort. woot.
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5 stars..:D
though if you hated Jaedong early on because of his boring play style then I'd take it that you didn't like savior for his 3 hatch turtle style?
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On May 29 2010 01:12 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 01:09 Malinor wrote:
Since your blog is basically a rant, I am not too concerned about your controversial statements and rather found them amusing.
However, the way you make it sound like game 4 of Jaedong vs Fantasy and game 4 of Effort vs Flash were "Dirty Zerg"-play is really not helping your argument. Fantasy built a proxy fac (which Jaedong scouted) and Flash tried to BBS (and got scouted). Of course they adjusted their game-plan accordingly. If they would have played "Dirty Zerg" regardless we cannot know. Finally someone who gets it. The only worthwhile thing to take from this blog is that Flash /Jaedong > Effort skillwise and Plexa watched the finals less than 3 hours ago.
why are you including this? is this being said as some sort of an excuse?
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On May 29 2010 01:44 IntoTheWow wrote:
flame bait.
"rant rant rant ridiculous claim"
EffOrt got ridiculous winning streaks months ago. He took CJ to playoffs and won on matches with lots of pressure on. And now he won OSL after being 0-2 down. It's not EffOrt's fault that flash couldn't cope with his strategies. EffOrt strategies dealt with Flash's weaknesses the same July did back in the day.
And yes, Flash was the inferior player, because he didn't change his mindset in all the series (maybe only in game 4?). If action got to the finals against any Terran, do you think they would let him reach hive easily? No, they would do all sort of dirty Terran strategies to kill Action before he got to hive. It's not being bad, it's outsmarting your opponents.
Even game 4 was pretty predictable and the most obvious time to cheese. Mixing it up would be to cheese in the first set maybe or something crazy like that. Everyone tries BBS at this stage in a BO3/5, was hardly a smart move.
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Your blaming effort for being dirty, when Flash was doing all in builds in both game 4 and 5 that Effort just countered well?
I swear you are getting more and more biased in your older days.
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Plexa, please don't write the next power rank.
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United States5045 Posts
I'll wait until I see what you say in the Power Rank. THEN I'll argue.
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Thought this was a really bad article.. I don't care what game you are playing people saying "resorted to cheese," won because of luck not skill, etc really just need to stfu. If you have a problem w/ 2 hatch muta, etc.. then make a topic on that. But don't blame the player for using what he felt would give him the best chances vs his opponent.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 29 2010 02:04 TommyGG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 01:12 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 01:09 Malinor wrote:
Since your blog is basically a rant, I am not too concerned about your controversial statements and rather found them amusing.
However, the way you make it sound like game 4 of Jaedong vs Fantasy and game 4 of Effort vs Flash were "Dirty Zerg"-play is really not helping your argument. Fantasy built a proxy fac (which Jaedong scouted) and Flash tried to BBS (and got scouted). Of course they adjusted their game-plan accordingly. If they would have played "Dirty Zerg" regardless we cannot know. Finally someone who gets it. The only worthwhile thing to take from this blog is that Flash /Jaedong > Effort skillwise and Plexa watched the finals less than 3 hours ago. why are you including this? is this being said as some sort of an excuse?
Nah, I understand it. It's easy to get caught up in what you're writing so soon after an event, and if Plexa does regret it to some extent, I can totally sympathize with feeling foolish like that.
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Effort is bad? He just adapted to what flash did.
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Player wins a Tournament fan boy of loser wants to remind everyone that the winner is "still" a bad player. as if before he won he was a nobody dispite the fact weeks coming up to the event effort was doing fantastic and reclaiming skill he had his peek ago.
Also if efforts is "still" bad then flash is "still" bad.
Plexa is obviously a racist as well.
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This is a stupid thread. Eff0rt vastly outplayed Flash in the Bo5 setting in the OSL Finals. Flash's mindset broke down after set 3, and Eff0rt's didn't. Eff0rt didn't do a speedling all-in in set 5. He saw Flash did an un-walled 14cc and Eff0rt diverted from his 2hat muta into more lings, taking advantage of a window, a weakness, to secure him an OSL championship.
Effort played wildly better than Flash did in sets 3-5.
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9070 Posts
I dont think EffOrt is a terrible player, only ForGG may say that, but I dont think he is that good either. You just have to compare him with Calm, the other kind of new rising zerg star and a SL champion. Imo Calm is superior in every way and I think he has a lot more room to improve, where's the infamous EffOrt of 2009 got raped with scouts by Bisu on the day that Bisu had a Bo3 against Flash...
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On May 29 2010 00:49 Plexa wrote:
I'll concede the Jaedong point, because that probably is just me being an angry fanboy.
I give you credit for being honest.
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Jaedong during Batoo OSL was as good as a final gets. 2-0 down to the wall to fantasies cheezy semi-mech. How could you claim jaedong took the easy way out? 8 raxing terran, wtf? He adapted to fantasies builds and found their weaknesses during a bo5. That's a champion on my eyes.
Then you state that p's can't do this? What about bunker rushing? All the one base chenanigans T can do? Vult drop, marine drop, runby, floating facs... Proxy double gate for P, some fast push no corsair all in?
If a Bo5 doesn't determine the better player than what does? Flash is a notorious Bo5 lozer, he is the one who resembles "No, he'll never win a Starleague", he should have won so much more than he did, but he's a machine, so predictable. That's a weakness.
The underdog position is a real position. Effort was in there, Flash should've known that. Opening 14nex is very risky in that situation.
A bo5 is to long for a Flash.
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On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
I have been giggling non-stop for like, 10 minutes because of this. I heart you.
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1. Your are inconsistent on your views on what constitutes "cheese" and what is "dirty".
2. #1 is really irrelevant. This is starcraft, not "dancing with the stars". As long as you follow the rules, it's on you to respond to anything your opponent does - rather than cry and call it unfair. This simple metric of success is what defines SC as a competitive game and ultimately makes it a "sport".
3. I hope this is a troll.
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I'll agree with IdrA aswell
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On May 29 2010 02:45 disciple wrote:
I dont think EffOrt is a terrible player, only ForGG may say that, but I dont think he is that good either. You just have to compare him with Calm, the other kind of new rising zerg star and a SL champion. Imo Calm is superior in every way and I think he has a lot more room to improve, where's the infamous EffOrt of 2009 got raped with scouts by Bisu on the day that Bisu had a Bo3 against Flash...
Effort 2009 started after WL. And if anyone has still a lot more room to improve its Effort, not Calm who pretty much reached his limit...
Calm has a horrible late game compared to all the other big zergs.
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On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions
Hahaha IdrA laying down the smackdown
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Braavos36372 Posts
Plexa's just mad because he is an Effort hater and Flash/Jaedong fanboy
lol Effort went 14-2 since the OSL tiebreak, with 3-0 Kal and 3-2 Flash, and he's "still bad"
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We all know PvZ is broken. So, I agree with Plexa discounting the 3-0 buttrape of Kal.
But I agree with Idra for the rest.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Haters gonna hate okay?
Fans/haters won't ever admit they're wrong.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 04:07 Roffles wrote:
Haters gonna hate okay?
Fans/haters won't ever admit they're wrong.
Yeah seriously, Plexa is crying because Effort bitchslapped his boy.
Maybe Effort, the OSL winner who deserved it by outplaying Flash while down 0-2, will make it through the Plexa fanboy bias and make power rank next month! Oh boy.
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:04 BroOd wrote:
I disagree profoundly with the assertion that gamers should be consciously trying to manufacture "quality games". As an audience, it's obviously preferable for us to watch pendulous momentum and artful climaxes, but this experience has to come organically from both players operating at a high level. If a game doesn't work on this level, I feel that the general "blame" (and I don't like calling it that) has to be placed on the loser. If flash had managed to deflect effort's play style, it would've been admittedly brilliant play, but he didn't. He succumbed to it, and as such, the onus for not providing high quality resistance and by extension high quality games falls on flash.
The notion of playing games with the expressed purpose of being "epic" is contrary to the driving spirit behind competition. People who compete at such a high level have to do so with singular mind and purpose. It has to be over-riding and all consuming.
If you're in the world series finals for baseball, with the game tied and a man on third, you're going to bunt or sacrifice-fly ball to bring him in and score a run. You're not going to swing away and try to hit a home run, even though it might be more of an "epic" way to win a game, certainly moreso that bunting. You do this because you're playing to win, and playing percentages. I think that's what effort was doing. Despite his play style in the last three games being technically considered more of a "risky" style, I think it provided him with the best chance to win, and a much higher odds of winning than by trying to win three consecutive games with a standard style while being down 0-2. He was playing to win, and he won. He did his job. The fact that the games weren't epic is simply not his fault, and it certainly shouldn't count as a mark against him.
I also agree with the above.
And I really, really disagree with (this has nothing to do with Effort and everything to do with sport):
Plexa's ridiculous thoughts:
hat pisses me off the most, is that the OSL final lasted for hours but the last three games took a combined total time of about 30mins. Just like Pusan vs July. What an utter slap in the face to all the SC fans out there wanting to see an amazing 3rd, 4th or even a 5th game. Just one of those going into a late game where Effort won would have legitimized his victory by so much (but hey, he wouldn't have won anyway lol). Playing the dirty-zerg style is an insult to anyone who loves this game.
The moment you start playing "epic" for fans and stop trying to win is the moment StarCraft becomes like scripted wrestling and less like a sport. The reason we have epic moments in the first place is because players don't try purposely to make epic games.
A "slap in the face to fans" lol would you rather Effort just let Flash 14cc without any sort of punishment? It's mind boggling how much I disagree with this article even outside my obvious Effort bias. Why not have OSL finals played on fastest then, thats essentially what you're saying.
You wrote a huge two part article about iloveoov who earned his late game advantage through excellent minimalistic early game defense. And now you're completely discounting someone's win (Effort's) because his opponent failed to do what oov was so great at. How can you miss such an obvious parallel? Flash is not iloveoov because he lacked the ability to defend early game like oov did.
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9070 Posts
just snipe the power rank yourself to make sure
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Hot_Bid's Power Rank:
1. Effort
2. Effort
3. Jaedong
4. Effort
5. Snow
6. Skyhigh
7. Iris
8. Kal
9. Baby
10. Snow
CBNC:
Movie, Orion, MIsO, Devil, BBYong, Rush, invade, IdrA
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Braavos36372 Posts
On May 29 2010 04:15 jalstar wrote:
Hot_Bid's Power Rank:
1. Effort
2. Effort
3. Jaedong
4. Effort
5. Snow
6. Skyhigh
7. Iris
8. Kal
9. Baby
10. Snow
CBNC:
Movie, Orion, MIsO, Devil, BBYong, Rush, invade, IdrA
I would put Snow above Effort #3.
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5/5 for not being afraid to speak your mind!
Personally I don't think Effort is bad. However, he is still nowhere near the skill level of Flash or Jaedong.
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Stuff like this is why I disagree with power ranks more often then I agree with them. If effort is bad, what does that make flash if he cannot win a series while being up 2-0?
I'm sure there will be some handy excuse to keep flash on the top for june even after he loses to jaedong. "He made it into 2 finals! nobody else did!"
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
While I personally think Effort isn't as good as Flash and that Flash is arguably the best player at the moment, at the end of the day it comes down to delivering results.
Down 0-2, Effort could have easily choked and lost game 3 in disappointing fashion, but he came back to deliver only the second 0-2 to 3-2 in OSL finals history. Sure, they were short games, but a win is a win. And there's no doubt that in games 3 and 5, he played some ridiculous mind games with Flash. Everyone praised July for toying around with Best at EVER, why can't Effort get a little credit for some ridiculously sick ling play? Watching games 3 and 5 made me realize how much of a mindgame Starcraft is.
Sure, you can say he never had to play late game, but why play late game when you can win early game? Bottom line is, Effort exposed Flash, did what other zergs haven't been able to do as of late, and he won because of it.
After watching the tiebreakers, I at first thought Effort shouldn't have advanced, but I realized that mulligans are just a part of the process. Incruit wouldn't have been Incruit had Stork not been given a second shot in the wildcards. If he really didn't belong, he wouldn't have found himself in the Finals.
And when has ZvT been easy? Serious? TvZ has always been the epitome of imbalance, along with ZvP. Terrans can cheese an 8 rax, lift off, and still be in pretty good shape. When has zerg been able to 4 pool, do no damage, yet still be fine?
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Well, I agree that some build orders are less fun to watch, but that doesn't mean that Zergs should just not do them for the spectators. I'll also agree that FlaSh >>> EffOrt in terms of skills. I doubt anyone but the most crazed fanboy would argue that EffOrt is more skilled than FlaSh.
But honestly, you forget that FlaSh is the god of cheese. He has cheesed Jaedong out of an OSL and cheesed other players out of leagues [Bisu I think] ruining other good series. How is this not a "Dirty Terran Style". I noticed you only listed Zergs as the one cheating people of a good series. All races have cheated us of a good series. I see no reason to pick on Zerg.
And more on this "Dirty Zerg Style". 5 pool is also considered pretty cheap but it is entertaining to watch. Would that still be considered skill-less and cheap even though it is entertaining to watch?
And we've seen what happened when a pro-gamer tried to be epic. Hiya vs Free. Wraiths, Nukes, and other jazz in a TvP. The result? He got stomped. Would you rather EffOrt mass queens and Infested Terran and lose a series that he might have won otherwise or just play a style that is less entertaining to watch but give him the maximum chance of winning?
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Peerless troll, I love it.
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I have to agree with Plexa to some extent. To quote myself from the LR thread:
On May 24 2010 13:45 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
After seeing their somewhat decent match in proleague where Effort managed to hold on to his early advantage into a win, after seeing the nail-biting Flash vs. Action game that really came down to the wire... I think we have a certain right to be disappointed by this series. Especially watching live, seeing the amazing introduction transition into the massive delays, and ultimately staying awake all night only to witness anticlimactic games that would remind someone of a series between go.go and Kwanro.
Effort did what he had to to win, and win he did. He had strong mental fortitude after being down two games, and he had good preparation and even a little bit of luck. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that he won the series on the back of great late-game management or anything here. When a game did go that far, he squandered a huge lead and was crushed. And Flash, of course, squandered an even bigger lead by losing the series trying to pull stupid crap.
Stripping away any allegiances and speaking only as a spectator, the games were weak, uninspiring, and definitely unfulfilling. Ugh.
So yes, Plexa, I agree that the games weren't that much to look at. I agree that one decent late-game win over Flash would have not only been better to watch, but would have "legitimized" the victory so that it wouldn't feel quite as hollow. I agree that Effort's play wasn't as convincing as I'd hoped it would be, and I agree that Effort is probably not the better player, but did what he had to to win. I blame both Effort and Flash for making it a mostly subpar series, but I can't blame Effort for winning.
Most people here seem to agree as well, despite their aversion to your anti-Zerg rant.
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i didnt think people thought effort was bad. hes amazing and its too bad that he had to play during the same era as jaedong, who makes every other zerg barely noticeable in his massive shadow.
i dont understand why you hate zerg so much. i like to root for the underdog. there is a pretty much concensus among the pros that terran has a slight advantage in TvZ. Imo bunker rushes and strong sunken busts are far more effective than anything in the zerg early game arsenal.
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United States11390 Posts
On May 28 2010 23:25 Plexa wrote:
Dear I say it, Jaedong now looks stronger than Jaedong at any other point in history (in my eyes).
Jaedong is stronger than Jaedong??
Lies. Dong isn't that good imo.
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On May 29 2010 06:20 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 23:25 Plexa wrote:
Dear I say it, Jaedong now looks stronger than Jaedong at any other point in history (in my eyes).
Jaedong is stronger than Jaedong?? Lies. Dong isn't that good imo.
JvJ, the most incredible matchup in ESPORTS history.
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Such a troll. More "deserves" bullshit argument. Winning is the point of the game, not to impress Plexa. And still el oh el at your bitterness of Jaedong vs fantasy. I remember your "here to stay" article and you were still harping how fantasy was the better player.
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told you guys his power rankings are super biased against effort
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terrible
If I could give this blog negative stars, I would.
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EffOrt is like the king of macro zergs.. He pretty much NEVER cheeses, which is why his aggressive strategic style probably threw flash off and got him the title.
It was so ironic to see EffOrt use kwanro's build in game 5 because it's the complete opposite of his regular style.
FlaSh knew that Shine and Kwanro are hyperaggressive players, so he was easily able to deal with them by playing a safe defensive style, but a passive macro player like EffOrt exploited a less prepared flash by using aggressive strategies.
And yeah EffOrt isn't bad - he's totally awesome. Not as awesome as Jaedong, but not many are.
1 star blog
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On May 29 2010 02:04 TommyGG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 01:12 Plexa wrote:On May 29 2010 01:09 Malinor wrote:
Since your blog is basically a rant, I am not too concerned about your controversial statements and rather found them amusing.
However, the way you make it sound like game 4 of Jaedong vs Fantasy and game 4 of Effort vs Flash were "Dirty Zerg"-play is really not helping your argument. Fantasy built a proxy fac (which Jaedong scouted) and Flash tried to BBS (and got scouted). Of course they adjusted their game-plan accordingly. If they would have played "Dirty Zerg" regardless we cannot know. Finally someone who gets it. The only worthwhile thing to take from this blog is that Flash /Jaedong > Effort skillwise and Plexa watched the finals less than 3 hours ago. why are you including this? is this being said as some sort of an excuse?
the topic has slowly been turning to excuses as soon as people starting blinding him with reason, that's what most people do when they realize they cant come back from half of what people are saying they go er guys i was just joking! or some other thing to account for their wrongful views, even though it has nothing to do with it
On May 29 2010 00:41 asdfTT123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 00:37 IdrA wrote:
you are literally the most clueless person ive ever seen write about sc players
stop having opinions +100000000000
1000% agree
as far as ive ever seen the only reason plexa gets to publish articles is because he's able to write super long posts with lots of big words and pictures, this is a very good example of quantity =/= quality. Of course everyone is going to have some bias but COME ON this shit has always been way out of control and makes for a worthless article that has little point to read except to fuel my fire for plexa dislike, which isnt the way it should be
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can some one else than this fool write the next PR, PLEASE
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The most surprising thing about the OSL finals to me is that Flash, for the second finals in a row, opened the games with worse builds than his zerg opponent (especially if you include the opener in the canceled game 1 vs Effort). That JD read Flash so perfectly last MSL finals surprised me; for Effort to do it this OSL finals was shocking.
If Flash once again is the worse player in the first three minutes of the games tonight, he's going to lose to JD again, and he'll have lost all three of his last finals in the same exact way as far as I can see.
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I don't quite understand how you could belittle Effort for playing "dirty" when the occasion with 'cheese' was in game 4 and it was performed by Flash.
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Was going to write up a long reply to this, but Roffles pretty much covered all the points I wanted to. You know, I think very few people would say that Effort is the better player overall, however, to call him bad just because he exploited Flash's weakness is a bit too much. Especially considering his recent streak; yes the tiebreaker wasn't pretty, but he's appeared to come out of whatever funk he was in since then.
Effort saw opportunities, and you can't blame him for taking them. You say this is a dirty style, and you defend Boxer bunker rushing Yellow three times in a row because it was innovative. So does that mean all the times Flash successfully bunker rushes or uses BBS is dirty, because it's no longer a really innovative strategy? (Though I will concede that he generally doesn't win with it three times in a row in what's supposed to be an epic series.)
And Effort really didn't all-in cheese any of the games. Don't recall game 3 too well, but I know he sacrificed some lings while holding a decent amount back, and Flash moved out without enough information. You can call this luck if you're really that petty, and it might have been to an extent, but it looked like he intentionally held those lings back. Game 4 was Flash stubbornly trying to catch Effort off guard after his cheese attempt was spotted. Effort defended beautifully, though Flash was already pretty far behind. In game 5 Flash went for an early base without the means to properly defend it; Effort exploited this.
Once again, I don't think many would argue that Flash is generally the better player, but to call Effort bad is just blatant fanboyish rage. I really hope your dislike for Effort and love for Flash don't cause the next power rank to be too heavily biased (especially should Flash lose to Jaedong tonight.) I'm not expecting Effort to make top 3 (though I would argue 3), but to not make top 5 would be a crime.
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You seem like you're suggesting that players opt for a much more riskier strategy during the game when scouting your opponent doing something that's leaving a huge hole in his defense to exploit with a common strategy. Innovation is cool when it's used to mind fuck your opponents (and I've seen few games with this pulled off and they're amazing), but when the title is on the line and outsmarting the opponent with a common strategy that's easier than a risky one is something I would choose (especially for those best of 5 sets that are in a single day).
I recall an earlier episode of Day[9] stating that idealy the ultimate goal with risky strategies is to execute them well and be able to transition to a mid-late game that is generally the same as if they opened up with a safe build. I would opt for a safer build if there wasn't certainty to an outcome of a planned attack. Yeah safe builds are not an exciting performance, but at least the chances of losing earlier are reduced quite a bit.
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On May 29 2010 10:42 koreasilver wrote:
I don't quite understand how you could belittle Effort for playing "dirty" when the occasion with 'cheese' was in game 4 and it was performed by Flash.
apparently 8rax isn't cheesy, but opening anything other than 3hatch is
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wtf is "dirty zerg" supposed to mean? if fantasy can't defend against a 2 hatch muta that's his fault. jaedong was exposing a weakness, not playing dirty.
also effort is still like the 2nd or 3rd best zerg, so i dunno what ur talking about. ur just bitter cuz flash choked
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Kwanro.
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I mean, Kwanro's old 2hatch build is kinda pretty much what Effort did in game 3.
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Stopped reading it after something about 2hatch muta being cheese. It was pretty interesting before, though.
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Ahahahaha... this might be the first time I've ever agreed with you on an issue like this Plexa. For quite some time I thought this day would never come! I honestly don't know what to say... this feeling of wanting to just post in support rather than write out a long post disagreeing is so strange.
I guess I have to mention that I disagree on the Jaedong vs Fantasy part, at least. In no way is Jaedong ever outclassed by Fantasy. Game 5's vulture kill into valk sniping pretty much proved Jaedong had figured Fantasy's gimmicky play out.
Also, I can't believe you guys are even arguing this, but forward-base 2hatch muta is most definitely all-in. 2 hatch muta itself is borderline at best (look at games like Jaedong vs Ruby on Blue Storm where Jaedong eventually ggs out despite doing massive damage to Ruby for like 10 minutes), but adding your 2nd gas at a base that not only isn't your natural, but is toward the other player's base... come on people.
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I agree that Effort has been experiencing results better than his recent level of play, but also agree that Flash deserved to lose that finals based off his game 3, 4 and 5 play.
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On May 29 2010 01:03 tree.hugger wrote:This blog seems designed to annoy me. But I'll take the high road. Haters gonna hate. + Show Spoiler +
And lol @ "I'll take the high road" but bolding Effort's name as the winner of the original game 1 in the OSL. Yeah buddy, you aren't biased or twisting statistics at all.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
wtf kinda drugs u sprinkling on your waffles plexa?
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so wait.. you wont give Effort 3rd this PR? i think thats biased
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United States13896 Posts
This is the only Plexa blog I have ever given a 1/5.
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Braavos36372 Posts
Effort's bad, but every other Zerg (including JD) is worse.
LOLOL
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Braavos36372 Posts
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 28 2018 17:28 Hot_Bid wrote:
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lol
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Baa?21242 Posts
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Calgary25968 Posts
Someone call Michael Jordan about this Plexa kid.
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TLADT24920 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/JvFMSL_Finals/EffOrtKissing1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://media.photobucket.com/image/yarnc/KnightOfNi17/yarnc.jpg)
