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On November 02 2009 18:32 eMbrace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 18:27 psion0011 wrote:On November 02 2009 18:22 Shauni wrote:On November 02 2009 18:10 psion0011 wrote:On November 02 2009 18:07 Shauni wrote:On November 02 2009 17:49 eMbrace wrote:On November 02 2009 17:47 psion0011 wrote:On November 02 2009 17:36 Shauni wrote:
Wow Mora I'm so relieved I'm not your son. I'm so tired of all the talk about respect, most of you North Americans seem to sing in tune about this for some reason.
All people deserve equal respect until they are proven otherwise. Regardless of social position (parenting, job, lifestyle, sexuality, anything). You do not deserve more respect because you successfully moved out from home earlier than he did. A fire-fighter doesn't deserve extra respect because he is saving lives.
He doesn't respect his dad? Who the hell are you to judge? Respect has nothing to do with slaving for your parent or doing what he wants you to do. It'd be one thing if he didn't do the laundry out of dislike for the dad, but it doesn't sound like that at all. I believe the parent-child bond is (or should be) deep enough not to get swayed by useless arguments about daily chores. "Laundry? FUCK YOU DAD I'M NOT YOUR SLAVE oh yeah where's my dinner? oh btw thanks for letting me live here for free lol" Both of you are twisting this situation into something retarded. Where's the retarded part? It's essentially what this is all about. You guys judge him harshly as a failure not only because of his attitude but also because he's 22 and lives at home. I'm just saying that you should throw out your capitalist views about achieving social status before you judge his character. For the price of someone's rent I can hire a maid to do my laundry AND clean my house. But he's living there for free and you call him a slave, that is what's retarded. Do slaves pay rent? Slaves doesn't have any income and they do certainly not get paid for doing chores unlike a maid. They also receive 'free' housing. Don't step on your own foot. Before you get angry, I'm not saying that he shouldn't do the chores when his dad asks him to, and I only made an extreme parallel to slaving, not saying it has anything to do with his situation. If you get upset over me using the term 'slave', you totally missed my main point. Yes clearly he is being held in that house against his will LOL You're pretty good at this internet thing aren't you i would hope a reasonably human being wouldn't ever feel superior to their child merely because they raised them in their own house. it's like a firefighter rescuing you from a burning building and saying "you owe me, big time." are you going to thank that firefighter to death for saving you? sure. are going to give him some free food if he visits you at your food service job? hell yeah. but is it right for him to demand unreasonably things of you? not really -- he certainly has the power to guilt trip you though.
Except after you turn 18 it's not their responsibility anymore and you're just a big mooch
and since when did laundry turn into some epic unreasonable quest LOL
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On November 02 2009 18:35 psion0011 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 18:32 eMbrace wrote:On November 02 2009 18:27 psion0011 wrote:On November 02 2009 18:22 Shauni wrote:On November 02 2009 18:10 psion0011 wrote:On November 02 2009 18:07 Shauni wrote:On November 02 2009 17:49 eMbrace wrote:On November 02 2009 17:47 psion0011 wrote:On November 02 2009 17:36 Shauni wrote:
Wow Mora I'm so relieved I'm not your son. I'm so tired of all the talk about respect, most of you North Americans seem to sing in tune about this for some reason.
All people deserve equal respect until they are proven otherwise. Regardless of social position (parenting, job, lifestyle, sexuality, anything). You do not deserve more respect because you successfully moved out from home earlier than he did. A fire-fighter doesn't deserve extra respect because he is saving lives.
He doesn't respect his dad? Who the hell are you to judge? Respect has nothing to do with slaving for your parent or doing what he wants you to do. It'd be one thing if he didn't do the laundry out of dislike for the dad, but it doesn't sound like that at all. I believe the parent-child bond is (or should be) deep enough not to get swayed by useless arguments about daily chores. "Laundry? FUCK YOU DAD I'M NOT YOUR SLAVE oh yeah where's my dinner? oh btw thanks for letting me live here for free lol" Both of you are twisting this situation into something retarded. Where's the retarded part? It's essentially what this is all about. You guys judge him harshly as a failure not only because of his attitude but also because he's 22 and lives at home. I'm just saying that you should throw out your capitalist views about achieving social status before you judge his character. For the price of someone's rent I can hire a maid to do my laundry AND clean my house. But he's living there for free and you call him a slave, that is what's retarded. Do slaves pay rent? Slaves doesn't have any income and they do certainly not get paid for doing chores unlike a maid. They also receive 'free' housing. Don't step on your own foot. Before you get angry, I'm not saying that he shouldn't do the chores when his dad asks him to, and I only made an extreme parallel to slaving, not saying it has anything to do with his situation. If you get upset over me using the term 'slave', you totally missed my main point. Yes clearly he is being held in that house against his will LOL You're pretty good at this internet thing aren't you i would hope a reasonably human being wouldn't ever feel superior to their child merely because they raised them in their own house. it's like a firefighter rescuing you from a burning building and saying "you owe me, big time." are you going to thank that firefighter to death for saving you? sure. are going to give him some free food if he visits you at your food service job? hell yeah. but is it right for him to demand unreasonably things of you? not really -- he certainly has the power to guilt trip you though. Except after you turn 18 it's not their responsibility anymore and you're just a big mooch and since when did laundry turn into some epic unreasonable quest LOL
i hope you dont have kids 0_o
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On November 02 2009 17:36 Shauni wrote:
He doesn't respect his dad?Who the hell are you to judge?
uh? I'm someone with a brain?
I would never respond to anyone who asked me to do something with why don't you do it?. That is disrespectful, and i don't treat people that way. Similarly, people who treat me that way are excluded from my life, and promptly so. My dad didn't treat me with respect, which is why i moved out of the house. I don't surround myself with people who are disrespectful.
Respect has nothing to do with slaving for your parent or doing what he wants you to do. ...I believe the parent-child bond is (or should be) deep enough not to get swayed by useless arguments about daily chores.
I 100% agree. I would never ask my child to quit doing his favourite activity to do something as trivial as laundry. I would have a particular affinity for my relationship with my child and would treat such a relationship with care - asking someone to immediately quit doing what they love when there is no benefit to doing so would clearly be counter-productive to such an undertaking. But that's not what we're discussing. You don't have to like or respect your father, but if he pays the bills and expects you to do something, you fucking do it. Me? i want to have a good relationship with my son, and would not behave in a tyrannical manner even though it's my right to do so.
Wow Mora I'm so relieved I'm not your son. I'm so tired of all the talk about respect, most of you North Americans seem to sing in tune about this for some reason.
All people deserve equal respect until they are proven otherwise. Regardless of social position (parenting, job, lifestyle, sexuality, anything). You do not deserve more respect because you successfully moved out from home earlier than he did. A fire-fighter doesn't deserve extra respect because he is saving lives.
You're confusing "behaving with integrity [ie: respect]" with "dad deserves respect because he's your dad".
You should treat a fire-fighter with respect. You should also treat a homeless person with respect. I also think you should treat me with respect - not because i moved out of my home when i was 18, but because that's how i will treat you.
i don't know what people don't get about this. If dad pays the bills, he has you by the balls. If you don't like it, leave. If you don't want to leave, improve it by acting responsibly. Throwing a tantrum and saying "why don't you do it", is understandable from a 13 year old, but by the age of 22, you should know better.
Maybe my perspective on this would be better understood if i gave an example of how i'd handle this situation if i had been in it.
So dad asks me in the middle of a Starcraft game to do a chore. It's super not a good time and leaving right now to do it will ruin the flow of the game, both for me and my opponent. I say, "Hey dad, this is a really important game, and it's super intense right now, could i do it as soon as i'm finished?".
He has one of two responses:
a) "Sure, no problem son".
b) "No. get the fuck off the computer you lazy sack of shit and do what you're told".
We don't need to discuss situation a since it's optimal and all turns out great. So let's discuss my response to situation b:
I ask my opponent if he wouldn't mind my pausing while i take care of something i cannot afford not to take care of. For the sake of arguement, let's assume he's a dick and does not let you pause. I call him a cunt and leave the game. I go and do said chore. I approach my father later, sit him down, and say something along the following: "Hey dad. I understand that it is important to you to have the laundry out of your hair so that you don't need to worry about it - and i apologize for not having done so. But it's really important to me to discuss what happened today. I tried to express to you that i was doing something that is really important to me, and from the way you responded, well, it gave the distinct impression that you just don't care. When you do this, you make me feel insignificant, unimportant, and to be frank, it's treating me in a way that i consider disrespectful. I need to know if that was your intention, cause it was certainly the situation"
again, there's pretty much two responses:
a) "I'm sorry son, i didn't realize how important it was to you, and will be more mindful next time. I appreciate your apology and trust that you will take my concerns more considerably in the future, and i will do the same."
b) "I don't give a fuck what you think. While under my roof you will do what i say and you will do so when i say it".
obviously, we don't need to discuss scenario a.
scenario b has a few responses, most of which will be unsuccessful, and the others are not easy:
a) talk to someone in your family who has a better connection with your father, and ask for advice of how to better handle the situation (most likely will be unsuccessful, in my experience)
b) talk to someone (ie: a shrink) about how to handle the situation. This will most likely be unsuccessful unless your father is willing to improve his side of the relationship (since his side is clearly the problem). This is obviously unlikely because of the situation you are in.
c) remove disrectful person from your life. You must decide if the cost is worth it (ie: your 'free' education, how well you eat, etc.)
I was lucky that i had two parents who differed in the extreme. My mother was pretty much always response a in every single scenario, and my father was pretty much always response b. My ability to articulate my thoughts and feelings to people in my life has always come fairly naturally - a skill passed on from my mother; i feel that i handled most situations with my father (in my late teens, at least) with maturity. He still did not treat me with respect after continual attempts to reason through our relationship problems, and so i had no choice but to move out.
this still does not change the fact that under his roof, i have no other fucking option than to do what he tells me. it also doesn't give me the right to treat him with disrespect. Acting that way would remove my integrity. I was able to act bigger than my father, not by treating him with disrespect or behaving like a child, but being a man and moving out. This is important for everyone you deal with in life. Whether it be siblings, your boss, friends, peers, strangers, anyone. When someone treats you with disrespect, it is not reason enough to throw your integrity out the window and behave like a child. Practicing with someone who won't budge, regardless of how maturely you deal with them, is good practice.
It wasn't until later that he could accept my assertion as a self-supporting man, and were able to not only become civil and respectful, but also become best friends. I now have an extremely strong, mutually respecting relationship with my father, and that would not be possible if i had continued to point my finger at my father and think of him as being wrong. It grants him power over my attitude and my person, and robs me of the ability to act with integrity.
edit - just wanted to point out that if i did live with my father, and it had been agreed upon that i would wash the towels, that they would be done without him ever having to ask me to finish the job. If i did live with my father again, and didn't work, and he paid all the bills; i would probably do the grocery shopping, do almost all of the cooking, do all of the dishwashing, and do all the mutual laundry pieces. After doing these things, i would probably ask him if there is anything i could help him with.
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I understand your view a bit better now Mora. But you don't have to be so condescending just because you grew up with a more strict father than OP's father. Yes, because he pays the bill he CAN be an asshole and he CAN throw you out if he wants to but it is pretty extreme in relation to this case. Most children can have a dialogue with their dad on equal terms without the dad resorting to threats about throwing you out. It seems like he just wanted to provoke his dad a little. In most cases that doesn't result in more than a small fight, which can be healthy at times.
I left my mother and my stepdad's home because of this reason. Whenever he noticed me unhappy about something my stepdad resorted to yelling about me being an ungrateful bastard who should be happy I have a home and food on the table.
Looking through the rear-view, I definitely do not share your opinion about it being OK, neither in your case or mine. You should rather be happy for his sake (rather than condescending) - that he has a father who doesn't threaten throw him out because of shit like this. To me, from your previous posts it sounds like you'd become just like your own father if you ever had children.
On November 02 2009 18:59 Mora wrote:You're confusing "behaving with integrity [ie: respect]" with "dad deserves respect because he's your dad".
You're well-aware to notice this, yet the difference is not that I'm confusing the concepts, rather that I do not believe the latter exists. Your dad does not deserve any respect 'because he's your dad'. I guess that's where our main viewpoints differ.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
The OP reminds me of when I was younger and used to get into stupid arguments with my parents simply out of spite for them. Stupidity like this would be a weekly or even daily thing for me.
So this post is no big deal to me, really.
Assuming my point of view is correct, the only solution is for the OP to move out. It can take years of separation before the spite disappears. I'm just lucky I got to move out and start living a normal life earlier.
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On November 02 2009 19:35 Shauni wrote:I understand your view a bit better now Mora. But you don't have to be so condescending just because you grew up with a more strict father than OP's father. Yes, because he pays the bill he CAN be an asshole and he CAN throw you out if he wants to but it is pretty extreme in relation to this case. Most children can have a dialogue with their dad on equal terms without the dad resorting to threats about throwing you out. It seems like he just wanted to provoke his dad a little. In most cases that doesn't result in more than a small fight, which can be healthy at times. I left my mother and my stepdad's home because of this reason. Whenever he noticed me unhappy about something my stepdad resorted to yelling about me being an ungrateful bastard who should be happy I have a home and food on the table. Looking through the rear-view, I definitely do not share your opinion about it being OK, neither in your case or mine. You should rather be happy for his sake (rather than condescending) - that he has a father who doesn't threaten throw him out because of shit like this. To me, from your previous posts it sounds like you'd become just like your own father if you ever had children. Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 18:59 Mora wrote:You're confusing "behaving with integrity [ie: respect]" with "dad deserves respect because he's your dad". You're well-aware to notice this, yet the difference is not that I'm confusing the concepts, rather that I do not believe the latter exists. Your dad does not deserve any respect 'because he's your dad'. I guess that's where our main viewpoints differ.
sorry, i wasn't articulate enough. i don't believe the latter exists either (and i meant to say that people are confusing the former with the latter).
The use and definition of the word 'respect' is so very loose. I treat everyone with respect. When i was a late teen, i rarely reduced myself to treating him disrespectfully, as i felt that that was a bigger reflection of myself than it was of the way he was treating me.
It's not possible to end up like my father as i will not command obedience, i will have continuous and on-going dialogue with my kids, and will take their joys/desires as my own, because they enjoy them.
that being said, when they turn 13, they're either going to start taking care of some of the house-labour, or they're going to get a job. I don't feel that giving them a free ride through university is healthy, so they will either have to borrow money from me or a bank. 90% of my friends floundered through college/university not knowing if they even wanted to do their study as a career, they just wasted their parents money. My kid can study whatever he wants, but it will be a little more tangible when he understands that it's on his own dime.
I'm not hard-line on this stance, and could see it changing in the future depending on my future experiences. As of this point in time, it makes the most sense to me. People seem to be a lot more careful and caring with their actions when they are using their own money. Additionally, i don't want my kid to feel obligated to keep on studying a discipline that they don't enjoy just because i paid for it. I don't know if most people would feel better knowing it was on their own dime as opposed to an obligation to their parents, but i know i certainly would.
again, not concrete in such an opinion, and will probably have a discussion with my children about such a thing when the time comes - as i will value their opinion greatly in this matter.
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This thread started to spiral out of control during the end, but it was definetly a good read.
Yes, I still live at home at the age of 22, and I'm still in college, I dont pay rent or anything at home. Yes, we have a room in the house with washer and dryer. Oh and college is free in Sweden. I didn't take a loan from my father, if you dont believe I "owe" him something just by being his son, I am in fact debt-free.
I'm still debating whether I would have told him to do it himself if I wasn't stressed out by the encircling D+ mutalisks. On a good day I would probably only have emptied the washer, but I was already irritated, something that I actually warned him about.
The discussion began with him entering my room, asking me if I had a minute, because he really needed to talk to me about something important. I tell him I'm very busy, but if it's important go ahead, but I also tell him, before he starts talking that I am very frustrated and irritated at the moment, he asks me why and I tell him it's because the game isnt going so well.
You can bet your ass that I became more irritated when I heard that this really important subject that needed immediate attention was LAUNDRY, this is when I told him to do it himself.
I cant count the times I have emptied laundry from the washer that I didnt put in, put it in the dryer etc... And the fact that he even resorts to the incredibly childish defense of "I didnt put it in" made me even angrier.
However, I'm probably going to go into the laundry room right now, and wash his shirts, while I think he was a fucking idiot at the time, and I'm still kinda pissed, I know I could have handled it better. There is no reason to keep fighting about this, because we will probably handle it like we handle all other arguments, we both get pissed, yell at each other, and forget about it the next day. (Sometimes I do shit despite telling him to get lost for asking me, and sometimes he apologizes the next day, so its not all bad). And him finding clean shirts when he comes home today would probably make things better.
I'm only a bit worried it will make him think he was right, which means that some day the coming month, I will forget shit in the washer again, and once again he will tell me to empty it. Now I think there has been alot of comparisons to other situations here. But I still mirror what eMbrace wrote, it's laundry, why he couldnt just put it in the dryer himself really grinds my gears. It's like he chose to take an argument about it instead of just fucking doing it. Had it been that I crashed his car, spilt cola on the kitchen floor or even left my jacket on the floor, I would have understand it.
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Osaka27154 Posts
I think you still fail to realize that your biggest crime might have been trying to talk while still playing a game. Nothing shows poorer manners than talking while playing a game. You are showing that the other person isn't worthy of your full attention.
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Just quit the game, saves you a lot of frustration.
When someone asks me something and I happen to be playing iccup or whatever I just type gg and altf4 right away.
Dads do not like it when their son tells them to go do something themselves, that's their job.
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Welcome to real life, where you actually have to complete jobs, just not leave your shit laying around for others to do.
Yeah, this is what I try telling the old fucks at the factory I work, they just leave shit around for me to fix later all the time...bastards :--(
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On November 02 2009 13:31 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +If my dad told me to turn off the computer for no reason what so ever in the middle of a A+ ICCUP game or a tournie final you bet your ass i'd do it. i'd try explaining to him why its important but if he wanted me to do something else i'd get off my ass and do it.
I'm sorry but doing things for no reason/no explanation is not something I'd do just because I respect and love someone. I don't think this makes me a horrible person.
No, it doesn't make you a horrible person. It just makes you a selfish one.
Prioritizing the needs of people we 'respect and love' above our own is something that is expected of people who consider themselves adults. It's why your parents buy you new school clothes each year while wearing the same pair of worn out shoes for a decade. It's why you come running when your wife calls you even though it's just to open a stupid jar. It's why you drop everything when your friend calls you for a pint because you know he needs to get something off his chest.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you people? When did everyone get so completely self-absorbed?
Selfishness is the defining trait of this generation.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Oh fuck you.
All someone has to do is tell me WHY or tell me it's important. The important part of the example was this:
If my dad told me to turn off the computer for no reason what so ever
I would never refuse a request to help someone out if I can, not even by people I barely know, and certainly not my parents, but a random "turn off your computer" would be met with a "why?", not unquestioning obedience.
Sorry if I overreacted but I dislike being called selfish, as it's about the last thing I am. I have other flaws for sure, but definitely not that -_-
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An unselfish person would implicitly grasp the 'why' without having to be beaten over the head with it when it is his dad making the request.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Are you trolling me?
I don't know what kind of cave-man relationship you have with your parents to consider such a mono-syllabic command to be perfectly normal, but since mine would pretty much never make such a request without prefacing it with "it's important or "turn off your computer because X", so it's not actually an issue.
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Oh no. If trolling were the goal I wouldn't have picked the most level-headed guy in the thread to respond to. In reality it was one of those scroll down while getting more and more frustrated with the responses before spamming out a reply to whoever you land on situations.
Anyways, when I say that our generation is defined by selfishness, I don't want to sound like I'm excluding myself. You bet I'm selfish. We all are.
But what can you expect? We represent a generation that has experienced no real hardship and has lived largely through a period of relative global prosperity all while being told how important we are, how special we are, and having others make all the nessecary sacrifices for us. The end result is that we are robbed of the necessary perspective that would help us see why whatever our dad is asking us to do - whether we understand it or not - is by default more important than a stupid computer game.
Our generational narcissism has been written about at length - and not just by cranky old men.
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Sweden33719 Posts
But he very specifically said "for no reason".... That is, the only reason he wanted the computer turned off is to satisfy his whimsy.
If it was "can you help me with this?" I would pause and say "brb 1 minute, have to help someone". In fact, I even have an example of a PGTour game where that happened (my mom asked me to help move some furniture) and I came back to an unpaused game and - iirc - won anyway :D
Also, while I know we are the "me me me" generation, I don't think it's healthy to take the opposite extreme to such an extent that you can't have things that are important to you.
If you are in the final of a tournament (as in the original example), why shouldn't this be important to you? Would your dad automatically drop everything he was doing if he was in a phonecall or a chess tournament, without an explanation or at least a mention of it being important?
I really do not think he should, and I hope he wouldn't.
Furthermore, I would agree that I haven't really had to go through any hardships, but I'd like to think that my parents have bestowed some pretty solid values upon me. They've always been really unselfish and as a result it's something I've come to value a lot. I'm not that big on talking about personal stuff (well, at least not when it involves others than me) so I'm not gonna go into details.
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So I washed his shirts, I even vacuumed the house, and I left the shirts out (after drying them) so he would notice. After coming home he walks into my room carrying the shirts and asks me: "you didn't iron them?" then leaves.
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On November 03 2009 03:26 Catch]22 wrote:
So I washed his shirts, I even vacuumed the house, and I left the shirts out (after drying them) so he would notice. After coming home he walks into my room carrying the shirts and asks me: "you didn't iron them?" then leaves.
Since I cant see the expression on his face, I know if that was my dad that is his own weird way of saying thanks. Id say if you have it that bad then just move out, no more problems. And, the relationship with your parents will improve. When I lived at home my Dad and I would butt heads on a once a week basis. I worked for him, and naturally id have to hear his griping all day long. But after I moved out, got a different job my relationship with him got better. Now I work for him again, and hearing his griping is actually not as annoying as it was at 14-18.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On November 03 2009 03:26 Catch]22 wrote:
So I washed his shirts, I even vacuumed the house, and I left the shirts out (after drying them) so he would notice. After coming home he walks into my room carrying the shirts and asks me: "you didn't iron them?" then leaves.
Hahahaha
I think this settles the topic (assuming he wasnt joking).
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On November 02 2009 17:47 psion0011 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2009 17:36 Shauni wrote:
Wow Mora I'm so relieved I'm not your son. I'm so tired of all the talk about respect, most of you North Americans seem to sing in tune about this for some reason.
All people deserve equal respect until they are proven otherwise. Regardless of social position (parenting, job, lifestyle, sexuality, anything). You do not deserve more respect because you successfully moved out from home earlier than he did. A fire-fighter doesn't deserve extra respect because he is saving lives.
He doesn't respect his dad? Who the hell are you to judge? Respect has nothing to do with slaving for your parent or doing what he wants you to do. It'd be one thing if he didn't do the laundry out of dislike for the dad, but it doesn't sound like that at all. I believe the parent-child bond is (or should be) deep enough not to get swayed by useless arguments about daily chores. "Laundry? FUCK YOU DAD I'M NOT YOUR SLAVE oh yeah where's my dinner? oh btw thanks for letting me live here for free lol"
Letting you? A parent makes an unspoken pact to shelter and provide for offspring for nothing in return when they have kids. Oh congrats dad, you're doing what you agreed to do when you conceived me.
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