• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:34
CEST 02:34
KST 09:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202552RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams7Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 685 users

TLnet Poll - Is Protoss too strong in SC2?

Is Protoss too strong in SC2? :

Yes (1543)53%
No (807)28%
Not sure (553)19%

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
TL.net Bot
Profile Joined June 2004
TL.net131 Posts
May 25 2019 06:17 GMT
#1
Mahanaim
Profile Joined December 2012
Korea (South)1002 Posts
May 25 2019 12:41 GMT
#2
Oh boy
Celebrating Starcraft since... a long time ago.
Jj_82
Profile Joined December 2012
Swaziland419 Posts
May 25 2019 15:09 GMT
#3
Here we go My opinion: Toss isn't too strong, since it's pretty balanced concerning winrates, but there are things in the protoss arsenal, that screw up the fun: warp-in, prism range, Protoss air, especially in multiplayer. Even forcefields feel peculiar, since you have to plan around them in map design. —

This, aaaand generally, I'd love Blizzard to double down on reducing armies melting within seconds!
Once rode a waterslide with PartinG and TaeJa ✌
NinjaNight
Profile Joined January 2018
428 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-25 16:33:56
May 25 2019 16:31 GMT
#4
Maybe only slightly too strong at most. High level winrates consistently show Protoss is only at between 50-54% winrate vs other races. Also based on personal experience playing every race it doesn't stand out as being extra strong compared to the others. It's more unforgiving in many ways.
sugarmuffinpuff
Profile Joined October 2014
Canada38 Posts
May 25 2019 16:46 GMT
#5
I suck at starcraft, but I liked Artosis and NoRegret's recent episodes of "In Depth" where they talked about protoss all-ins, and specifically immortal/warp prism play. They stay fairly objective about it, and aren't overly "balance-whiney". Definitely a good thing to watch if you care about this sort of stuff.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
May 25 2019 19:00 GMT
#6
On May 26 2019 01:46 sugarmuffinpuff wrote:
I suck at starcraft, but I liked Artosis and NoRegret's recent episodes of "In Depth" where they talked about protoss all-ins, and specifically immortal/warp prism play. They stay fairly objective about it, and aren't overly "balance-whiney". Definitely a good thing to watch if you care about this sort of stuff.

More than balance, the main problem with immortal is that it absolutely shaped the PvZ meta.
There are so many small variations the P could do, and the Zerg is mostly just guessing when to stop droning.
Many times the viewers cant catch it either, which variation of the immortal push is being done, and they just see a push that either rolls through the zerg or gets swarmed down.

I think Serral said in an interview, that the meta has really shifted, now in PvZ the P is trying to end it with immortals, and in TvZ the terrans are pushing it to late-late game (6-10 months ago it was the opposite)
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Dedraterllaerau
Profile Joined May 2019
113 Posts
May 25 2019 19:31 GMT
#7
What exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with these kinds of polls?

With TL's news headlines like "Protoss dominate Super Tournament, RO8 bracket set" or "PartinG advances, Protoss lock in half of Code S RO16 spots"

Should not the focus be on all the players that advanced instead of what race they play?

As the biggest portal for foreign SC content you are a big part of shaping our community, and your best idea of contributing to this is putting more gasoline on the fire for all those toxic "PROTOSSED" balance spamming whiners you see everywhere from twitch chat to in-game SC2?

How about giving the Protoss players who have in fact played brilliantly recently some credit, instead of making them feel like they are carried by imbalance.

Start showing some professional behavior instead of taking these passive aggressive pokes at professional players choice of in game race, it is after all how they make a living.







[F_]aths
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany3947 Posts
May 25 2019 23:01 GMT
#8
I remember years and years and years of Terran and Zerg domination, with Protoss only having some moments to shine. Now Protoss seems to win more. A statistical fluke? Or did the players find new options? If a terran or zerg player wins, I think it is because of skill. Same for protoss players.
You don't choose to play zerg. The zerg choose you.
StarcraftSquall
Profile Joined December 2018
United States196 Posts
May 26 2019 07:11 GMT
#9
On May 26 2019 04:31 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
What exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with these kinds of polls?

With TL's news headlines like "Protoss dominate Super Tournament, RO8 bracket set" or "PartinG advances, Protoss lock in half of Code S RO16 spots"

Should not the focus be on all the players that advanced instead of what race they play?

As the biggest portal for foreign SC content you are a big part of shaping our community, and your best idea of contributing to this is putting more gasoline on the fire for all those toxic "PROTOSSED" balance spamming whiners you see everywhere from twitch chat to in-game SC2?

How about giving the Protoss players who have in fact played brilliantly recently some credit, instead of making them feel like they are carried by imbalance.

Start showing some professional behavior instead of taking these passive aggressive pokes at professional players choice of in game race, it is after all how they make a living.









I approve of this message. I also think we need to nerf Terran and Zerg every time someone whines about Protoss imbalance. Then maybe everyone would just SHUT UP AND PLAY. 😏
Samba
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany452 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-26 16:12:55
May 26 2019 16:12 GMT
#10
What kind of a poll is that suppossed to be? Are you really expecting objective answers here?! And everybody can look up winrates at pro-level, everything else is just subjective and basically worthless. If this poll even has a purpose besides creating drama...
Not the standard i´m used from TL
RIP Geoff “iNcontroL" Robinson, September 11, 1985 - July 20, 2019
noise.harvester
Profile Joined September 2017
9 Posts
May 26 2019 16:56 GMT
#11
I feel like the main problem are immortals like many people have said here. I feel like they are too strong but also feel like Protoss is roped into making them every game, so that’s not great for the game either
blind429
Profile Joined September 2010
37 Posts
May 26 2019 17:14 GMT
#12
On May 26 2019 04:31 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
What exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with these kinds of polls?

With TL's news headlines like "Protoss dominate Super Tournament, RO8 bracket set" or "PartinG advances, Protoss lock in half of Code S RO16 spots"

Should not the focus be on all the players that advanced instead of what race they play?

As the biggest portal for foreign SC content you are a big part of shaping our community, and your best idea of contributing to this is putting more gasoline on the fire for all those toxic "PROTOSSED" balance spamming whiners you see everywhere from twitch chat to in-game SC2?

How about giving the Protoss players who have in fact played brilliantly recently some credit, instead of making them feel like they are carried by imbalance.

Start showing some professional behavior instead of taking these passive aggressive pokes at professional players choice of in game race, it is after all how they make a living.








lol
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
May 27 2019 00:53 GMT
#13
lmao. If a regular user opened a thread like this it would get closed, but I guess everything goes for the poll forum.
sertman
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-27 07:30:28
May 27 2019 07:28 GMT
#14
On May 26 2019 04:31 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
What exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with these kinds of polls?

With TL's news headlines like "Protoss dominate Super Tournament, RO8 bracket set" or "PartinG advances, Protoss lock in half of Code S RO16 spots"

Should not the focus be on all the players that advanced instead of what race they play?

As the biggest portal for foreign SC content you are a big part of shaping our community, and your best idea of contributing to this is putting more gasoline on the fire for all those toxic "PROTOSSED" balance spamming whiners you see everywhere from twitch chat to in-game SC2?

How about giving the Protoss players who have in fact played brilliantly recently some credit, instead of making them feel like they are carried by imbalance.

Start showing some professional behavior instead of taking these passive aggressive pokes at professional players choice of in game race, it is after all how they make a living.









You said it yourself - this is how they make a living. If a race is too strong, it takes money out of the pockets of players who are practicing hard with other races.

You can see by the poll results that there is a significant amount of the TL community believes Protoss is too strong. It's not the job of this website to protect the feelings of players who are playing a race that is seeing a different kind of widespread success than we are used to seeing at the professional level. It is the job of a news organization to report the facts. The facts are, Protoss dominated Super Tournament with 7 Protosses in the Ro8. The facts are, in the current season of GSL there were 8 protosses in the Ro16 with at the time of this posting, 3 of the 4 have advanced to the Ro8. And now the facts are that there is a significant perception in every single space for SC2 discussion - whether it's reddit, here, or twitch chat - that Protoss is too strong. Here's a newsflash - you're advocating for unprofessional, biased journalism if you are seriously arguing that TL should ignore the elephant in the room by not addressing the current massive success of Protosses in top Korean tournaments. Yes, Maru won 4 GSLs in a row - but it's not like those four GSLs were open season for Terrans the same way it currently is for Protosses.

You seem more upset that TL's news and polls fuel toxic behavior than it is being factually accurate. I think you should just suck it up and realize that all those people screaming P R O T O S S E D in the current meta have a point, even if they haven't had a good point in other metas. The only way this can get worse is if Blizzard does nothing - not if TL and other places enforce what is by now a delusional balance ideal where nobody can acknowledge or talk about certain races having far more success than others in the top leagues in the world.
Dedraterllaerau
Profile Joined May 2019
113 Posts
May 27 2019 12:41 GMT
#15
On May 27 2019 16:28 sertman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2019 04:31 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
What exactly do you think you are going to accomplish with these kinds of polls?

With TL's news headlines like "Protoss dominate Super Tournament, RO8 bracket set" or "PartinG advances, Protoss lock in half of Code S RO16 spots"

Should not the focus be on all the players that advanced instead of what race they play?

As the biggest portal for foreign SC content you are a big part of shaping our community, and your best idea of contributing to this is putting more gasoline on the fire for all those toxic "PROTOSSED" balance spamming whiners you see everywhere from twitch chat to in-game SC2?

How about giving the Protoss players who have in fact played brilliantly recently some credit, instead of making them feel like they are carried by imbalance.

Start showing some professional behavior instead of taking these passive aggressive pokes at professional players choice of in game race, it is after all how they make a living.









You said it yourself - this is how they make a living. If a race is too strong, it takes money out of the pockets of players who are practicing hard with other races.

You can see by the poll results that there is a significant amount of the TL community believes Protoss is too strong. It's not the job of this website to protect the feelings of players who are playing a race that is seeing a different kind of widespread success than we are used to seeing at the professional level. It is the job of a news organization to report the facts. The facts are, Protoss dominated Super Tournament with 7 Protosses in the Ro8. The facts are, in the current season of GSL there were 8 protosses in the Ro16 with at the time of this posting, 3 of the 4 have advanced to the Ro8. And now the facts are that there is a significant perception in every single space for SC2 discussion - whether it's reddit, here, or twitch chat - that Protoss is too strong. Here's a newsflash - you're advocating for unprofessional, biased journalism if you are seriously arguing that TL should ignore the elephant in the room by not addressing the current massive success of Protosses in top Korean tournaments. Yes, Maru won 4 GSLs in a row - but it's not like those four GSLs were open season for Terrans the same way it currently is for Protosses.

You seem more upset that TL's news and polls fuel toxic behavior than it is being factually accurate. I think you should just suck it up and realize that all those people screaming P R O T O S S E D in the current meta have a point, even if they haven't had a good point in other metas. The only way this can get worse is if Blizzard does nothing - not if TL and other places enforce what is by now a delusional balance ideal where nobody can acknowledge or talk about certain races having far more success than others in the top leagues in the world.




The fact that you think this poll is relevant and that the people spamming PROTOSSED has any clue about the current state of the game pretty much sums up what limited understanding you have of the game.

I'll do you a favor and help you learn how to asses possible balance issues, and also make you understand the difference between "fun gameplay" and "balance".

1. Koreans have always had a lot of talented Protoss players for many years, and you consistently see the same names. Just like Europe has had many talented Zerg players over the years. This is one thing you have to take into consideration.

2. The amount of full-time PRO players is not that high for SC2 so you have a small sample size.

3. SC2 is sadly an extremely volatile game so at a high level with players executing simple builds very efficiently, "build order wins" sometimes see the lesser player beat the better player especially in shorter series ( just look at Neeb vs Volt WCS good example). This also adds to the randomness of how a tournament could shape up.

4. There has been only one, now most likely 2 heavily protoss represented tournaments in Korea. You add to this how the META has been shifting and these things need to stabilize before you start even considering balance changes.
Again small sample size, not enough time for players to adapt.

5. Winrates, not alarming whatsoever as of yet.

6. Is X race doing the same build over and over across the board with near 100% win rate (LOTV release Adepts good example) Or an unstoppable unit composition? Currently not the case.


Now add all these factors into your calculation and ask yourself is it too soon?


You tell me it's their job to report FACTS. Sure they reported facts. But it's also about what news writers put emphasis on, the way they write it and timing. And if it's called for.

You have to understand the scary part here is if Blizzard starts listening to 1000s of unknowledgeable viewers/players whining screams of imbalance and just does anything to make the community happy, you won't get a near balanced game ever.


Now from my perspective, TL is adding to this process which is not helpful at all for the game or the community in the long run. So like I said it is really unprofessional behavior of TL.




sertman
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-05-27 15:16:53
May 27 2019 15:08 GMT
#16
On May 27 2019 21:41 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
The fact that you think this poll is relevant and that the people spamming PROTOSSED has any clue about the current state of the game pretty much sums up what limited understanding you have of the game.

I'll do you a favor and help you learn how to asses possible balance issues, and also make you understand the difference between "fun gameplay" and "balance".

1. Koreans have always had a lot of talented Protoss players for many years, and you consistently see the same names. Just like Europe has had many talented Zerg players over the years. This is one thing you have to take into consideration.

2. The amount of full-time PRO players is not that high for SC2 so you have a small sample size.

3. SC2 is sadly an extremely volatile game so at a high level with players executing simple builds very efficiently, "build order wins" sometimes see the lesser player beat the better player especially in shorter series ( just look at Neeb vs Volt WCS good example). This also adds to the randomness of how a tournament could shape up.

4. There has been only one, now most likely 2 heavily protoss represented tournaments in Korea. You add to this how the META has been shifting and these things need to stabilize before you start even considering balance changes.
Again small sample size, not enough time for players to adapt.

5. Winrates, not alarming whatsoever as of yet.

6. Is X race doing the same build over and over across the board with near 100% win rate (LOTV release Adepts good example) Or an unstoppable unit composition? Currently not the case.


Now add all these factors into your calculation and ask yourself is it too soon?


You tell me it's their job to report FACTS. Sure they reported facts. But it's also about what news writers put emphasis on, the way they write it and timing. And if it's called for.

You have to understand the scary part here is if Blizzard starts listening to 1000s of unknowledgeable viewers/players whining screams of imbalance and just does anything to make the community happy, you won't get a near balanced game ever.


Now from my perspective, TL is adding to this process which is not helpful at all for the game or the community in the long run. So like I said it is really unprofessional behavior of TL.


You are incredibly patronizing when it's not warranted, and it makes me think that you're just projecting a lot of your emotions onto this conversation. Yes, this poll gives the P R O T O S S E D crowd in Twitch Chat some validity. You're going to have to get a grip and get over it.

1.) Since when dude? You said yourself that in 4.) that there have only been 2 recent tournaments (read: the last two) where we've seen this extremity of Protoss success, and it's not like a bunch of T/Z have left and a bunch of P returned. It's actually that basically every Protoss in Korea is succeeding right now - MC was literally the only notable Protoss to not qualify for GSL this season.

2.) The sample size thing is a cop-out. People were saying that during BL/Infestor too.

3.) The Super Tournament was a Bo5 for all rounds.

4.) Already addressed

5.) Winrates outside of top Koreans are generally meaningless, especially considering that one of the things that makes PvZ especially difficult right now are warp prism immortal micro, which only the top players can do with the kind of extreme efficiency that GSL Protosses are achieving. No matter how you cut it, watching two immortals in a prism hold off 20+ roaches *looks* ridiculous, unfair, and overpowered.

6.) Except the reason that people are really frustrated with Protoss, especially pro Zergs, is that they have a huge variety of really strong builds that make appropriately reacting to them basically impossible. Many Protoss losses come from egregious mistakes on their end like losing a warp prism during a 2 base push or something.

I'm not arguing here in the essentialness of Protoss being too strong right now. What I'm saying is that watching Protoss right now *looks* and *feels* overpowered. Look at Parting's recent GSL games. Game 3 against Gumiho, Gumi makes the rather small mistake of mismanaging his orbital energy - it straight up loses him the game. Is there a similar mistake that Protoss can make that insta-loses them the game vs Terran? Is there a chrono that they can miss or something? That feels bad to watch - Gumi played really well up until that point, but he makes one mistake and the game ends, when Protoss does not have that same margin of error. Game 2 against soO - soO makes the rather small mistake of not having a drone in the way to block a single pylon in his natural against a gateway first opening. From that one tiny micro mistake, he insta loses - Parting gets down 4 pylons (which soO had no way of stopping the final three), a cannon + robo and an immortal down with a shield battery. One unit absolutely destroyed anything that soO could make from that point. That just feels bad to watch. It doesn't feel like Protoss is in a situation right now where one mistake and they outright lose the game the way that Terrans and Zergs are at present in that matchup.

So no, it's not too soon. The community, as you can see by this poll, feels very strongly that something needs to change. If you want to talk about hurting the scene, think about how many people stop watching because they don't feel like they're watching a fair fight. Do you think I watched the Super Tournament past the round of 8? Do you think I'm really tuning into watching 8 Protosses in the GSL? I watched Group B and witnessed three of the most brutal Protossings I've seen recently in professional play - games that just straight up felt unfair to watch. I left feeling pretty upset for soO and Gumiho and I highly doubt I'll tune into future GSL games if that's going to be how I feel after watching them.

It's journalistic malpractice to not put an emphasis on the recent total domination of Protoss in Korea. You are projecting toxicity onto TL when that's all coming from inside your own head. If you truly believe that all races are totally balanced and fair to play, "Protoss dominate GSL Super Tournament" shouldn't bother you. But because you associate any mention of racial success as toxic, you perceive it as toxic. There needs to be a place for there to be mature discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of each race in the meta. Shutting down discussion completely only pushes that discussion to places such as Reddit, which is just a circlejerk/counter-circlejerk mess of a place to discuss this, and Twitch Chat, which is not remotely constructive.

You say that Blizzard shouldn't be listening to 1000s of bad players - except practically every single professional Terran and Zerg right now has said they feel Protoss is strong. soO was so tilted from his match against Parting he was talking about it after he beat Gumiho. Elazer straight up said that PvZ is imbalanced in an interview. "But they're just biased", you'll say. So are you dude. The reality of the Protoss Defense Squad is that you've constructed this talking point based bubble where every non-Protoss pro is biased, every fan is just upset about the games that THEY are losing, and the sample size is always too small and nothing should ever change. That's how we got BL/Infestor for way too long, and that's how people lose money even though they're working hard just because they couldn't play a perfect game against a race that doesn't need to.

So no, I think that your advocation of sugarcoating and censorship does a lot more harm than good. It's not TL's responsibility how Twitch Chat responds to their articles as long as they are not straight up lying, just like it's not a sportswriter's responsibility how fans react to articles that are critical of a player or a coach. The reality is that it's Blizzard's responsibility to not just make a game that's balanced and fair, but to make a game that FEELS balanced and fair. Right now, we can disagree all day on whether they're doing the first thing, but it's clear they are failing at the second thing.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25215 Posts
May 27 2019 16:50 GMT
#17
On May 28 2019 00:08 sertman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2019 21:41 Dedraterllaerau wrote:
The fact that you think this poll is relevant and that the people spamming PROTOSSED has any clue about the current state of the game pretty much sums up what limited understanding you have of the game.

I'll do you a favor and help you learn how to asses possible balance issues, and also make you understand the difference between "fun gameplay" and "balance".

1. Koreans have always had a lot of talented Protoss players for many years, and you consistently see the same names. Just like Europe has had many talented Zerg players over the years. This is one thing you have to take into consideration.

2. The amount of full-time PRO players is not that high for SC2 so you have a small sample size.

3. SC2 is sadly an extremely volatile game so at a high level with players executing simple builds very efficiently, "build order wins" sometimes see the lesser player beat the better player especially in shorter series ( just look at Neeb vs Volt WCS good example). This also adds to the randomness of how a tournament could shape up.

4. There has been only one, now most likely 2 heavily protoss represented tournaments in Korea. You add to this how the META has been shifting and these things need to stabilize before you start even considering balance changes.
Again small sample size, not enough time for players to adapt.

5. Winrates, not alarming whatsoever as of yet.

6. Is X race doing the same build over and over across the board with near 100% win rate (LOTV release Adepts good example) Or an unstoppable unit composition? Currently not the case.


Now add all these factors into your calculation and ask yourself is it too soon?


You tell me it's their job to report FACTS. Sure they reported facts. But it's also about what news writers put emphasis on, the way they write it and timing. And if it's called for.

You have to understand the scary part here is if Blizzard starts listening to 1000s of unknowledgeable viewers/players whining screams of imbalance and just does anything to make the community happy, you won't get a near balanced game ever.


Now from my perspective, TL is adding to this process which is not helpful at all for the game or the community in the long run. So like I said it is really unprofessional behavior of TL.


You are incredibly patronizing when it's not warranted, and it makes me think that you're just projecting a lot of your emotions onto this conversation. Yes, this poll gives the P R O T O S S E D crowd in Twitch Chat some validity. You're going to have to get a grip and get over it.

1.) Since when dude? You said yourself that in 4.) that there have only been 2 recent tournaments (read: the last two) where we've seen this extremity of Protoss success, and it's not like a bunch of T/Z have left and a bunch of P returned. It's actually that basically every Protoss in Korea is succeeding right now - MC was literally the only notable Protoss to not qualify for GSL this season.

2.) The sample size thing is a cop-out. People were saying that during BL/Infestor too.

3.) The Super Tournament was a Bo5 for all rounds.

4.) Already addressed

5.) Winrates outside of top Koreans are generally meaningless, especially considering that one of the things that makes PvZ especially difficult right now are warp prism immortal micro, which only the top players can do with the kind of extreme efficiency that GSL Protosses are achieving. No matter how you cut it, watching two immortals in a prism hold off 20+ roaches *looks* ridiculous, unfair, and overpowered.

6.) Except the reason that people are really frustrated with Protoss, especially pro Zergs, is that they have a huge variety of really strong builds that make appropriately reacting to them basically impossible. Many Protoss losses come from egregious mistakes on their end like losing a warp prism during a 2 base push or something.

I'm not arguing here in the essentialness of Protoss being too strong right now. What I'm saying is that watching Protoss right now *looks* and *feels* overpowered. Look at Parting's recent GSL games. Game 3 against Gumiho, Gumi makes the rather small mistake of mismanaging his orbital energy - it straight up loses him the game. Is there a similar mistake that Protoss can make that insta-loses them the game vs Terran? Is there a chrono that they can miss or something? That feels bad to watch - Gumi played really well up until that point, but he makes one mistake and the game ends, when Protoss does not have that same margin of error. Game 2 against soO - soO makes the rather small mistake of not having a drone in the way to block a single pylon in his natural against a gateway first opening. From that one tiny micro mistake, he insta loses - Parting gets down 4 pylons (which soO had no way of stopping the final three), a cannon + robo and an immortal down with a shield battery. One unit absolutely destroyed anything that soO could make from that point. That just feels bad to watch. It doesn't feel like Protoss is in a situation right now where one mistake and they outright lose the game the way that Terrans and Zergs are at present in that matchup.

So no, it's not too soon. The community, as you can see by this poll, feels very strongly that something needs to change. If you want to talk about hurting the scene, think about how many people stop watching because they don't feel like they're watching a fair fight. Do you think I watched the Super Tournament past the round of 8? Do you think I'm really tuning into watching 8 Protosses in the GSL? I watched Group B and witnessed three of the most brutal Protossings I've seen recently in professional play - games that just straight up felt unfair to watch. I left feeling pretty upset for soO and Gumiho and I highly doubt I'll tune into future GSL games if that's going to be how I feel after watching them.

It's journalistic malpractice to not put an emphasis on the recent total domination of Protoss in Korea. You are projecting toxicity onto TL when that's all coming from inside your own head. If you truly believe that all races are totally balanced and fair to play, "Protoss dominate GSL Super Tournament" shouldn't bother you. But because you associate any mention of racial success as toxic, you perceive it as toxic. There needs to be a place for there to be mature discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of each race in the meta. Shutting down discussion completely only pushes that discussion to places such as Reddit, which is just a circlejerk/counter-circlejerk mess of a place to discuss this, and Twitch Chat, which is not remotely constructive.

You say that Blizzard shouldn't be listening to 1000s of bad players - except practically every single professional Terran and Zerg right now has said they feel Protoss is strong. soO was so tilted from his match against Parting he was talking about it after he beat Gumiho. Elazer straight up said that PvZ is imbalanced in an interview. "But they're just biased", you'll say. So are you dude. The reality of the Protoss Defense Squad is that you've constructed this talking point based bubble where every non-Protoss pro is biased, every fan is just upset about the games that THEY are losing, and the sample size is always too small and nothing should ever change. That's how we got BL/Infestor for way too long, and that's how people lose money even though they're working hard just because they couldn't play a perfect game against a race that doesn't need to.

So no, I think that your advocation of sugarcoating and censorship does a lot more harm than good. It's not TL's responsibility how Twitch Chat responds to their articles as long as they are not straight up lying, just like it's not a sportswriter's responsibility how fans react to articles that are critical of a player or a coach. The reality is that it's Blizzard's responsibility to not just make a game that's balanced and fair, but to make a game that FEELS balanced and fair. Right now, we can disagree all day on whether they're doing the first thing, but it's clear they are failing at the second thing.

And it’s up to TL to be responsible in counterbalancing what ‘feels’ wrong to certain people with what actually is wrong and isn’t.

Which generally it does with its writers and guides and various bits of content.

I don’t really like the current state of PvZ at all myself, because it feels like it’s just players executing a pre-planned allin and winning or losing based upon their opponent scouting it and reading it well or badly.

Problems are clear to see on both sides, I think Zergs are currently struggling because of the difficulty in ascertaining which allin is coming and preparing accordingly, the build skeletons are very similar and flexible.

On the other hand Protoss are just ahead of the meta curve in PvZ. After their lategame comps were nerfed, they had to come up with solutions, which we’re seeing at the minute with all these timings. Now it’s Zerg’s turn to see if they can come up with stuff, which doesn’t mean they necessarily can reliably, but it’s at that point on the wheel. soO was going hyper aggressive in his games on Saturday, so perhaps some holes might be found.

It’s easier to plan a timing when you’ve almost entirely discounted the possibility that it’s going to be your opponent doing anything aggressive first, so you can cut every corner to hit a tighter timing.

I’m not sure really, Protoss gets a disproportionate amount of whine and always has, are they too strong right now? Maybe, but what is the benchmark for that?

If so how are they too strong and is it something that needs player solutions or balance solutions?

A large chunk of the playerbase and viewership are insanely biased people whose opinions really aren’t worth taking into account because of that. You’ll end up with a completely broken and terrible game.

My Protoss bias is coming back just as a response to some of the recent whining, I do try to keep it in check though and I have some issues with Protoss currently (and forever as I feel basically all their issues come from warp gate). I don’t think their stuff is too outright strong, they are way too flexible in shifting gears.

As a Terran you can scout diligently as hell, see tech, and you still can’t really rule out really aggressive blink play, vs really greedy blink into colossus with a few stalkers out on the map. Also the many pushes Zerg have to figure out that use the same buildings and tech.

I’m not too sure how to alleviate this particular issue. The Warp Prism is what enables this, so I’d like to see it nerfed in some way in terms of its warpin capacity. Make them take longer to warp, warpin cooldown on your gates is longer if you’ve warped to a prism, or units warped to a prism cost more. Perhaps have parity warpins with pylons as a relatively cheap upgrade?

You could still do certain pushes, you just might have to set them up more obviously, especially if you use an old-fashioned reinforcement pylon which would give your opponents more chance to scout it.

On the negative side, Zergs are too good at spreading creep, so you basically need a prism to push quickly, so nerfing might just make Protoss outright suck versus Zerg. A gate cooldown increase might be OK though, your initial punch is still going to hit really hard, but your reinforcements will come slower which might give Zergs more of a chance.

I’d like to see pickup range nerfed anyway, I think it’s too long and makes counterplay too difficult, and it wouldn’t penalise really skilful players anyway.


'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8989 Posts
May 27 2019 18:47 GMT
#18
This is gonna end well
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Varanice
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1517 Posts
May 27 2019 22:11 GMT
#19
On May 27 2019 09:53 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
lmao. If a regular user opened a thread like this it would get closed, but I guess everything goes for the poll forum.

agreed, i was really surprised to see this.
www.twitch.tv/varanice
Psychonian
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2322 Posts
May 28 2019 05:29 GMT
#20
this thread.... wasn't a very good idea
Trans Rights
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 26m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 234
StarCraft: Brood War
sSak 57
Sexy 49
NaDa 42
ivOry 13
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1287
League of Legends
Dendi915
JimRising 300
syndereN152
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe308
Other Games
summit1g12117
tarik_tv7347
Day[9].tv751
shahzam616
ViBE235
C9.Mang0206
ToD173
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 98
• davetesta53
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 29
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• Day9tv751
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
10h 26m
Serral vs Cure
Solar vs Classic
OSC
13h 26m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 9h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 13h
CSO Cup
1d 15h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 17h
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.