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France13014 Posts
On December 10 2022 17:44 RKC wrote:
I also don't get this obsession with underdogs who play anti-football and luck their way through the tournament. The only people who root for such underdogs are either (a) someone with strong nationalistic and cultural views (including trivial stuff like disliking players dancing); (b) casual viewers who don't really play, watch and understand football other than watching WC and major tourneys once in a while; (c) gamblers.
I feel sad that Brazil is out. A Brazil-Argentina grudge match is a missed opportunity - an epic match that could be remembered through the ages and win more footballing fans around the world. Look, I admire what Croatia has done and players like Modric and Kovacic. But playing for the draw and penalties is really not the way that football should be played. I also admire Morocco - in fact, I have been rooting and hyping them up since the start of the tourney and early in this thread. But a Croatia - Morocco final? Based on how both teams have been playing in the knockouts so far? Sorry, I'm not even going to bother watching that final - and neither will many of my football buddies (and also casual viewers).
I really wish something can be done to do away penalty kicks. Maybe a 5v5 and 3v3 offence v defence turn-based contest instead. Or player v keeper with player starting at the middle of the field. Or sudden death extra time with number of players being removed after intervals. Anything that replicates real football. But this is wistful thinking of course. Everyone is just too used to penalty kicks.
I like aggro football and the fact that such upsets happen mean to me that something is wrong with the sport itself and rules should be changed so that clearly worse teams don’t win or almost never.
Basically the same reasoning I had when top terrans were decimated by any P/Z in that Katowice where only TY survived one round: show how absurd the game is at the moment to force rule makers to improve it.
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We should just abandon actually playing the games whatsoever, and whichever team has the most expensive players should just win by default.
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No, just abandon the first 90+30 minutes of game time. Who wants to watch 22 players run around and chase a ball anyway?Head straight to penalty kicks. First team to score 50 penalty goals win. What a nail-biting thriller of a game we will have!
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Upsets do happen only rarely, that's why they're called upsets. It's literally what the word means.
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On December 10 2022 21:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Then Portugal wins on penalty shootout and CRonaldo is permanently crowned GOAT because he won a world cup and Messi did not.
Haha, after yesterday, I don't care for him winning anymore. Ref did everything he could to help Messi and he complained about the ref afterwards, what a joke.
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On December 10 2022 22:11 RKC wrote:
No, just abandon the first 90+30 minutes of game time. Who wants to watch 22 players run around and chase a ball anyway?Head straight to penalty kicks. First team to score 50 penalty goals win. What a nail-biting thriller of a game we will have!
Think of it like boxing or MMA.
The old adage is 'don't let it go to the judges if you want to be sure you've won'.
If Brazil were really that good that they deserve to go through they would have beaten Croatia in 120 minutes, but they couldn't do that, because they weren't good enough.
Penalties is a bit random, yeah, but the game has to actually end at some point.
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Apparently Aguerd and Mazraoui left out due to injury. Saiss, Hakimi and Amrabat have also been battling injuries but will be playing. Let's see how their defense holds up. One way or another we're likely to see heroism from the Moroccan side.
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Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football.
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On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football.
I get where you're coming from, but if that was going to work, surely it would have worked by now.
It just doesn't really happen, and these teams have had a very long time to try and figure that out. Its been what 50-60 years since penalties was introduced, and we haven't seen a smaller country win the world cup by drawing every game.
If teams do play anti-football, and I haven't seen that much of it this year, they will eventually be beaten by a team that's smart enough to do exactly that.
Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top.
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On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. I get where you're coming from, but if that was going to work, surely it would have worked by now. It just doesn't really happen, and these teams have had a very long time to try and figure that out. Its been what 50-60 years since penalties was introduced, and we haven't seen a smaller country win the world cup by drawing every game. If teams do play anti-football, and I haven't seen that much of it this year, they will eventually be beaten by a team that's smart enough to do exactly that. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top.
Sure, like I said, just being speculative and paranoid.
What kinda also bugged me from yesterday's game is that the Netherlands and Croatia actually improved after going behind and scored great goals to equalise. And then lapsed back to a defensive shell to hold for the draw. Which shows that many teams actually have the quality to go toe-to-toe with top teams but instead played too cautiously.
I understand that the pressure is great. Many teams - both underdogs and favourites - have been guilty of playing with a mindset of 'being afraid to lose'. Happens in other WC and tourneys as well. But the negative mindset just seems greater this WC. Not sure why?
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On December 10 2022 22:53 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. I get where you're coming from, but if that was going to work, surely it would have worked by now. It just doesn't really happen, and these teams have had a very long time to try and figure that out. Its been what 50-60 years since penalties was introduced, and we haven't seen a smaller country win the world cup by drawing every game. If teams do play anti-football, and I haven't seen that much of it this year, they will eventually be beaten by a team that's smart enough to do exactly that. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top. Sure, like I said, just being speculative and paranoid. What kinda also bugged me from yesterday's game is that the Netherlands and Croatia actually improved after going behind and scored great goals to equalise. And then lapsed back to a defensive shell to hold for the draw. Which shows that many teams actually have the quality to go toe-to-toe with top teams but instead played too cautiously. I understand that the pressure is great. Many teams - both underdogs and favourites - have been guilty of playing with a mindset of 'being afraid to lose'. Happens in other WC and tourneys as well. But the negative mindset just seems greater this WC. Not sure why?
That also bothered me about the Netherlands in particular.
I understand more with Croatia because the counter attack for Brazil was something they were trying to avoid, and you can only do that by defending deeper.
For the Netherlands though, its like they hit upon Argentina's massive weakness (defending long balls in the air Dyche style), and then just decided not to use that information at all once they were back in the game.
Its very familiar to us England fans, as its been our problem now for decades. Go in front, drop back and defend, fail to secure the win.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top.
With a pretty big budget advantage.
Edit: not trying to argue that Catenaccio o similar tactics like "parking the bus" have a definitive advantage. Just that ManC is not a prime example on how easy or hard this tactic is broken. WC teams hardly have the same amount of synergy and preparation as league teams to play that way (budget aside).
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On December 10 2022 23:04 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top. With a pretty big budget advantage.
That's irrelevant though.
The discussion is about smaller teams with worse players trying to hold out for a draw/penalties.
Whether you're talking about City's budget advantage or Brazil's player advantage, the effect is the same, a team full of superstars having to break down an organized side trying to hold out.
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On December 10 2022 22:56 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 22:53 RKC wrote:On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. I get where you're coming from, but if that was going to work, surely it would have worked by now. It just doesn't really happen, and these teams have had a very long time to try and figure that out. Its been what 50-60 years since penalties was introduced, and we haven't seen a smaller country win the world cup by drawing every game. If teams do play anti-football, and I haven't seen that much of it this year, they will eventually be beaten by a team that's smart enough to do exactly that. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top. Sure, like I said, just being speculative and paranoid. What kinda also bugged me from yesterday's game is that the Netherlands and Croatia actually improved after going behind and scored great goals to equalise. And then lapsed back to a defensive shell to hold for the draw. Which shows that many teams actually have the quality to go toe-to-toe with top teams but instead played too cautiously. I understand that the pressure is great. Many teams - both underdogs and favourites - have been guilty of playing with a mindset of 'being afraid to lose'. Happens in other WC and tourneys as well. But the negative mindset just seems greater this WC. Not sure why? That also bothered me about the Netherlands in particular. I understand more with Croatia because the counter attack for Brazil was something they were trying to avoid, and you can only do that by defending deeper. For the Netherlands though, its like they hit upon Argentina's massive weakness (defending long balls in the air Dyche style), and then just decided not to use that information at all once they were back in the game. Its very familiar to us England fans, as its been our problem now for decades. Go in front, drop back and defend, fail to secure the win.
I like to give experts and professionals the benefit of doubt that they know what they're doing. My suspicion is that all teams have been holding back in games to save energy and avoid fatigue. Which explains no team getting a 3-0 clean sweep in the group matches. And somehow this fatigue is catching up in the knockout rounds. Players can't keep up with their peak skill and energy throughout 90+30 minutes. Maybe it's the climate, timing, and this whole weird winter WC.
This also explains all the last minute the goals. Team in the lead switches off thinking the game is over to save energy. The other team hits back. BOOM! So the whole momentum swings is not so much due to qualify but game management.
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On December 10 2022 23:04 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top. Edit: not trying to argue that Catenaccio o similar tactics like "parking the bus" have a definitive advantage. Just that ManC is not a prime example on how easy or hard this tactic is broken. WC teams hardly have the same amount of synergy and preparation as league teams to play that way (budget aside).
Yeah fair point.
I dunno though. Its kind of what I love about cup competitions. Its interesting to me to see how the bigger sides approach these tough challenges.
Remember the teams trying to defend also have little preparation, and their job is particularly hard in that it absolutely requires 120 minutes of complete organization and concentration.
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On December 10 2022 23:09 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 22:56 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2022 22:53 RKC wrote:On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. I get where you're coming from, but if that was going to work, surely it would have worked by now. It just doesn't really happen, and these teams have had a very long time to try and figure that out. Its been what 50-60 years since penalties was introduced, and we haven't seen a smaller country win the world cup by drawing every game. If teams do play anti-football, and I haven't seen that much of it this year, they will eventually be beaten by a team that's smart enough to do exactly that. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top. Sure, like I said, just being speculative and paranoid. What kinda also bugged me from yesterday's game is that the Netherlands and Croatia actually improved after going behind and scored great goals to equalise. And then lapsed back to a defensive shell to hold for the draw. Which shows that many teams actually have the quality to go toe-to-toe with top teams but instead played too cautiously. I understand that the pressure is great. Many teams - both underdogs and favourites - have been guilty of playing with a mindset of 'being afraid to lose'. Happens in other WC and tourneys as well. But the negative mindset just seems greater this WC. Not sure why? That also bothered me about the Netherlands in particular. I understand more with Croatia because the counter attack for Brazil was something they were trying to avoid, and you can only do that by defending deeper. For the Netherlands though, its like they hit upon Argentina's massive weakness (defending long balls in the air Dyche style), and then just decided not to use that information at all once they were back in the game. Its very familiar to us England fans, as its been our problem now for decades. Go in front, drop back and defend, fail to secure the win. I like to give experts and professionals the benefit of doubt that they know what they're doing. My suspicion is that all teams have been holding back in games to save energy and avoid fatigue. Which explains no team getting a 3-0 clean sweep in the group matches. And somehow this fatigue is catching up in the knockout rounds. Players can't keep up with their peak skill and energy throughout 90+30 minutes. Maybe it's the climate, timing, and this whole weird winter WC. This also explains all the last minute the goals. Team in the lead switches off thinking the game is over to save energy. The other team hits back. BOOM! So the whole momentum swings is not so much due to qualify but game management.
It could explain some things. I think iirc there's less time between games in this WC compared to others, so that is definitely a thing to think about.
If anything it emphasises how much better the WC is in the Summer.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On December 10 2022 23:08 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 23:04 IntoTheWow wrote:On December 10 2022 22:44 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 10 2022 22:40 RKC wrote:
Oh aside from sentimentality of missing out a Brazil-Argentina classico, I'm not actually that bothered about Brazil losing. I always felt their squad was somewhat overrated and lacked balance (not solid enough defence and midfield). I wasn't rooting or even expecting them to win the WC anyways.
I'm more bothered about the possibility of a team advancing to the finals or even winning the whole cup by drawing all knockout games in regular time and winning on penalties. Italy winning on penalties in the final and semies in the last Euro left a bad taste for me. Don't want a repeat of that. Sounds speculative, but I can imagine that some teams will actually master a playstyle that will effectively neutralise all other attacking play by the opponents. Effectively forcing every knockout round to a penalty coinfilp. Obviously, only a team with less quality in skill and technique would this. It's just a frightening prospect if teams actually trained their players and prep towards this stalemate-until-penalties strat. Kills the joy out of the game of football. Man City, for example, have to play against this type of football for about 25-30 games per season and still come out on top. With a pretty big budget advantage. That's irrelevant though. The discussion is about smaller teams with worse players trying to hold out for a draw/penalties. Whether you're talking about City's budget advantage or Brazil's player advantage, the effect is the same, a team full of superstars having to break down an organized side trying to hold out.
Expanded my answer above to emphasize my point.
My guess (I could be wrong) is that people want to see the best team win. Football is hardly fair and best is subjective, but there are clear cases of teams not wanting to play the ball at all during the 90/120. I can see where RKC comes from.
Theres entertainment in watching Croatias workrate during 120 minutes and I can hardly say Brazil deserved the win when they defended bad while being ahead (but overall I think they played more to win, which for example wouldnt be the case with Spain).
On a side note, Im scared of Croatia of course, but I was already swallowing a loss in my mind against Brazil.
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On December 10 2022 19:42 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2022 18:11 RvB wrote:On December 10 2022 08:30 warding wrote:On December 10 2022 07:39 Acrofales wrote:On December 10 2022 07:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Well... The Netherlands and Argentina are now mortal enemies. I don't really see why. It was a heated match, but this was really child's play compared to that one fateful match between Netherlands and Portugal in 2006. Or Netherlands vs Germany in 1990. That's what it takes to become mortal enemies (although in the case of Germany, we already were mortal enemies, that match just cemented the rivalry continue for another generation), not a match without even a single red.. The dutch started it with Boulahrouz intentionally injuring Ronaldo with van Basten laughing in the bench. I've hated the dutch teams since then. Lots of great matches this world cup. Time to prepare the game luck rituals for tomorrow. Van Basten is pretty famous for wanting to play attractive football and giving his players instructions to make the game fun to watch for everyone. He wasn't laughing because Ronaldo got injured. The worst thing about these types of games is the victim complex of fans. Dirty games like this happen when it's a tough match, emotions are high and the referee loses control. It takes two to tango. According to an interview with the fourth referee who allegedly was next to him, he laughed at the injury. https://www.soyfutbol.com/tendencias/Chiquimarco-revela-que-mandaron-lesionar-a-Cristiano-Ronaldo-en-un-Mundial-20220926-0044.html Van Bommel and Boulahrouz were clearly trying to stir shit up, it wasn't just tension from the match, it came in the first few minutes. Imagine Croatia playing Argentina in the semis and doing 2-3 cynical fouls on Messi in the first few minutes and getting him off the pitch injured.
That is kind of thin don't you think? According to someone who was allegedly next to someone who speaks a totally different language. Neither is that any indication that Ronaldo was injured on purpose. It's beside the point anyway. That game was incredibly dirty from both sides and justifying that behaviour because Boulahrouz made one ridiculous foul is a childs argument. That Boulahrouz made a foul on Ronaldo does not mean you can start sliding with studs up, hitting ankles and headbutting.
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On December 10 2022 21:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Then Portugal wins on penalty shootout and CRonaldo is permanently crowned GOAT because he won a world cup and Messi did not.
Exactly.
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GOAT on bench to save his GOAT-ness energy for the finals. GOAT has no time to play around with kids in playground games.
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EPT
