EPTBasically you are hitting and hoping and then letting Morocco have the ball, then you sit back and try to draw them forward and counter instead of playing front of them.
It makes so much more sense. I don't get why no-one is trying to do that.
FIFA World Cup 2022 - Knockout Stage - Page 54
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9845 Posts
Basically you are hitting and hoping and then letting Morocco have the ball, then you sit back and try to draw them forward and counter instead of playing front of them. It makes so much more sense. I don't get why no-one is trying to do that. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8860 Posts
the logic behind why you wouldnt voluntarily allow the opponents to have the ball is the same as the entire philosophy spain bases their football on. you cant score if you dont have the ball. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9845 Posts
On December 07 2022 15:08 evilfatsh1t wrote: just because a team has the ball it doesnt mean that they will push all their lines up the pitch. spain pushes their defensive line up to basically the halfway line whilst in possession. other teams may not wish to do so, and just rely on more direct passing and place more responsibility on forwards to create something. all youre really doing then is allowing a team to have more chances to score goals because naturally they have the ball more, and you dont really get to counter against them because they still have players sitting back. the logic behind why you wouldnt voluntarily allow the opponents to have the ball is the same as the entire philosophy spain bases their football on. you cant score if you dont have the ball. So if they leave players back low when they have the ball and push their forward players on to try and score there will be massive spaces to exploit. It just makes more sense for some teams imo. Not for everyone, obviously Brazil could break them down pretty easily, but I'm thinking for sides like England who struggle a bit when teams are low blocking you have to entice some of their players out so you aren't trying to pass through a block of 10 players. I mean I get it, I get the whole 'Can't score if you don't have the ball' but I'm seeing low blocks become more and more effective against possession play as time goes on, I think decent teams are able to pretty much perfect it. I've seen it in the EPL this season too. Spain's obsession with possession tactics is like an SC2 pro before a tournament declaring what unit comp he's going to use and that he will win by outmacroing everyone. It might work for a couple of games but then people will blind counter it. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8860 Posts
personally i think the solution to low blocks is to allow your players to take attempts on goal from distance. its something the game is really lacking nowadays, especially since turnover of possession is considered a crime if its not lost in the final third. especially if youre vsing guardiola teams for example, you know a low block is going to be a good chance of winning because guardiola teams are discouraged from taking low percentage long distance shots. or the other solution is probably allowing some players do be more 'free' and do some magic, which is also lacking in the game due to the benefits of the efficiency of playing a physical/structured game. something that rkc already pointed out; individual brilliance not being favoured over the reasonably technical workhorse. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18635 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6273 Posts
On December 07 2022 14:43 Jockmcplop wrote: OK so when teams play against a team like Morocco,, who sit in a block and try to counter, why not just hit long balls into their penalty area? Basically you are hitting and hoping and then letting Morocco have the ball, then you sit back and try to draw them forward and counter instead of playing front of them. It makes so much more sense. I don't get why no-one is trying to do that. I don't this should be the standard playing style but it should at least be an option. Like you said one of Spain's issues is that they're very predictable. They always have the same playstyle but there's no plan B. It's why I like that LvG took Luuk de Jong with him. It gives us the possibility to just cross everything into the 16 for him to head it in if something else doesn't work. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28796 Posts
I think football has evolved since, and that the equation might not yield the same result with increasingly technically gifted players, but it gave us nearly a decade of results our players had absolutely no business getting. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8860 Posts
On December 07 2022 15:39 RvB wrote: I don't this should be the standard playing style but it should at least be an option. Like you said one of Spain's issues is that they're very predictable. They always have the same playstyle but there's no plan B. It's why I like that LvG took Luuk de Jong with him. It gives us the possibility to just cross everything into the 16 for him to head it in if something else doesn't work. ironically lvg at utd was a huge culprit of playing no risk possession based football that was either tikitaka your way into the box or lump in crosses after 80 minutes of plan a failing. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18287 Posts
On December 07 2022 15:39 RvB wrote: I don't this should be the standard playing style but it should at least be an option. Like you said one of Spain's issues is that they're very predictable. They always have the same playstyle but there's no plan B. It's why I like that LvG took Luuk de Jong with him. It gives us the possibility to just cross everything into the 16 for him to head it in if something else doesn't work. Indeed! Because to copy a rather unfortunate quote by Koeman, Luuk de Jong is better than Neymar at that [and ONLY that]. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7195 Posts
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/9/9d/Nl_hd.png) vs ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/f/f1/Ar_hd.png) - Friday, Dec 09 7:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) 1:2Equal game. Messi makes the difference ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/a/a9/Br_hd.png) vs ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/c/c6/Hr_hd.png) - Friday, Dec 09 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) 2:0On paper this is pretty clear. ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/4/40/Fr_hd.png) vs ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/e/e5/Gb-eng_hd.png) - Saturday, Dec 10 7:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) 2:1Could go either way. Both good offense, France slightly better defense IMO. ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/8/81/Ma_hd.png) vs ![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/b/bf/Pt_hd.png) - Saturday, Dec 10 3:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) 0:2I think the Miracle of Morocco ends vs the Prowess of Portugal | ||
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sharkie
Austria18635 Posts
2. Yeah I just cant see Croatia handle this stacked Brazilian team 3. France's offense will play rollercoaster with Maguire. 4. Arrogance of Portugal could be strong enough for Morocco to pull off an offset here. But maybe penalties too | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Ironically, the last legendary Spanish forwards were Raul and Morientes. And they played in an era where Spain was alll about direct attacking football. Yet, the generation failed to achieve any significant result. As a fan of Spain since the 90s, I initially didn't like the possession-based play in the mid-2000s. I felt it was boring and betrayed the Spanish way of the 90s. As a Real Madrid fan back then as well, I sensed a shift of style from Madrid to Barca. But gradually, I began to appreciate the tiki-taka philosophy. Which style works better for Spain? Results-wise, the tiki-taka way wins hands down. Has football evolved to the point where the Madrid style is back in fashion? Maybe. But right now, I just don't see enough quality in the Spanish squad. Maybe the next generation like Ansu Fati can be the next 'Mbappe' for Spain. Until they have the right players, I just don't see how Spain can simply shift their playstyle overnight. P.S. Also, the point of tiki-taka is to fix a permanent problem in all Spanish squads then and now - defence. The idea is to reduce the chances of conceding goals, which comes at the expense of creating goals. In the 90s, Spain will win or lose in some 5-4 or 3-2 roller coaster thriller. Those times are now gone. Whether for better or for worse, it's just a question of taste. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8860 Posts
ned vs arg - heart says messi. head no idea. 50/50 for me bra vs cro - brazil fra vs eng - france. i think england will sit too deep partly because of mbappe and partly because their cbs are slow as fk anyway. as a result i think england will struggle to score. if rashford plays i think their best chances will be hoping rashford turns into the english mbappe and do the exact same thing, run in behind using his speed. mor vs por - portugal. i think portugal are actually very solid and a bit underrated. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
Argentina vs. Netherlands Croatia vs. Brazil England vs. France Portugal vs. Morocco Argentina vs. Brazil England vs. Morocco Argentina vs. England No particular reason, but I do think this would be the most entertaining outcome. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18635 Posts
On December 07 2022 20:36 RKC wrote: Spain's problem for the last 15 years or so has always been lacking forwards. Yet, they still won a WC and 2 Euros. David Villa was great but nowhere near the world's Top 5 or even Top 10 top strikers. Ironically, the last legendary Spanish forwards were Raul and Morientes. And they played in an era where Spain was alll about direct attacking football. Yet, the generation failed to achieve any significant result. As a fan of Spain since the 90s, I initially didn't like the possession-based play in the mid-2000s. I felt it was boring and betrayed the Spanish way of the 90s. As a Real Madrid fan back then as well, I sensed a shift of style from Madrid to Barca. But gradually, I began to appreciate the tiki-taka philosophy. Which style works better for Spain? Results-wise, the tiki-taka way wins hands down. Has football evolved to the point where the Madrid style is back in fashion? Maybe. But right now, I just don't see enough quality in the Spanish squad. Maybe the next generation like Ansu Fati can be the next 'Mbappe' for Spain. Until they have the right players, I just don't see how Spain can simply shift their playstyle overnight. P.S. Also, the point of tiki-taka is to fix a permanent problem in all Spanish squads then and now - defence. The idea is to reduce the chances of conceding goals, which comes at the expense of creating goals. In the 90s, Spain will win or lose in some 5-4 or 3-2 roller coaster thriller. Those times are now gone. Whether for better or for worse, it's just a question of taste. Thank you. This is said not often enough | ||
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justanothertownie
16325 Posts
On December 07 2022 21:17 Stratos_speAr wrote: My predictions from here: Argentina vs. Netherlands Croatia vs. Brazil England vs. France Portugal vs. Morocco Argentina vs. Brazil England vs. Morocco Argentina vs. England No particular reason, but I do think this would be the most entertaining outcome. I doubt it will happen but I approve of this for entertainment reasons. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6273 Posts
Because it's false. Tiki taka is based on Cruijffs football philosophy and his ideas on the importance of ball posession. Maybe it's a misunderstanding based on the following quote: If you play on possession, you don’t have to defend, because there’s only one ball. But the idea behind the quote is that you need the ball to score so ball posession has a dual purpose: both to not concede and score goals. He simply thought that the best way to defend and attack is one and the same. There is no trade-off between conceding and making goals. It also does not match the facts. Tiki taka is the way Guardiola played with Barcelona based on the players he had and his ideas on football. They scored a ridiculous amount of goals with it without conceding much. Again there's no trade off between defense and offense here. The Spain team took it over because it was very successful at the time and it was based on Spanish players like Xavi and Iniesta. Both of the Spain and Barca team at the time had world class players at the defence. There was no need to cover up any supposed defensive weakness. | ||
Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
And Spain hasn't changed tactics really, and they shouldn't, because this is the way they play and how they have been succesful. I don't think a change in tactics will make them perform better, they just need better players. Gavi and Pedri are extremely young. Cruyff has always said that the hardest thing to do, is play simple. No tricks, no long balls, but passes with good pace on the better foot of the player you pass the ball to. Daley Blind is a very good example of a player who plays like this. He gets a lot of flack for not having running pace and not defending well, but he makes up for it with both his intelligence (he reads the game well so he intercepts a lot because of it) but he won't beat a pacey attacker. What his biggest strength is, is that his passing is actually one of the best in the world, because he has mastered how to play simple. I was skeptical as well, but I saw him get subbed in when I visited Ajax playing Vitesse (was an awful match by Ajax, they ended 2-2) a couple weeks ago, but you could see the difference in his passing compared to his teammates. Everything was so fast and smooth, compared to the slowpace passes his teammates were throwing around. The real strength in tiki taka is just that, being able to execute it with such speed and accuracy that defenders can't keep up. Spain doesn't have enough of those players currently (and no-one who can beat players one on one). This looks way different than Spain now. That Barça would still beat every team. They were that good. | ||
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DropBear
Australia4400 Posts
Netherlands vs Argentina Morocco vs Portugal England vs France Brazil vs Netherlands Portugal vs France Brazil vs France Netherlands win 3rd place match | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26766 Posts
On December 08 2022 04:05 Twisted wrote: The difference in Spain now and Barça/Spain back then was that there's a vast difference in skill of the players who performed it. Nowadays they pass a lot, which hasn't change much, but the accuracy and speed with which they passed, combined with the technical dribbling prowess of Iniesta (and Messi at Barça) made it so much stronger. In addition to good passers, you also need dribblers who can beat defenders one on one. Of course, Messi is the best dribbler (and I dare say passer) of all time, so naturally the tactic worked wonders. And Spain hasn't changed tactics really, and they shouldn't, because this is the way they play and how they have been succesful. I don't think a change in tactics will make them perform better, they just need better players. Gavi and Pedri are extremely young. Cruyff has always said that the hardest thing to do, is play simple. No tricks, no long balls, but passes with good pace on the better foot of the player you pass the ball to. Daley Blind is a very good example of a player who plays like this. He gets a lot of flack for not having running pace and not defending well, but he makes up for it with both his intelligence (he reads the game well so he intercepts a lot because of it) but he won't beat a pacey attacker. What his biggest strength is, is that his passing is actually one of the best in the world, because he has mastered how to play simple. I was skeptical as well, but I saw him get subbed in when I visited Ajax playing Vitesse (was an awful match by Ajax, they ended 2-2) a couple weeks ago, but you could see the difference in his passing compared to his teammates. Everything was so fast and smooth, compared to the slowpace passes his teammates were throwing around. The real strength in tiki taka is just that, being able to execute it with such speed and accuracy that defenders can't keep up. Spain doesn't have enough of those players currently (and no-one who can beat players one on one). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMkJht0GxOs This looks way different than Spain now. That Barça would still beat every team. They were that good. Spot on. | ||
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