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On November 27 2022 23:29 Rookie6 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2022 23:11 WombaT wrote:On November 27 2022 22:04 RKC wrote:
Thanks for the insights, Drone and Wombat.
My own feelings on Neymar and sneaky players like him is mixed. I dislike their theatrics, diving, play-acting. But they often come from the streets and local leagues where defenders can be rather violent and cynical. So their cheating is a way to compensate for the lack of protection that they get from referees. Of course, maybe there's some chicken-and-egg going on - the cheaters tend to get fouled more.
Between diving and violent play, the first is the lesser evil. That's why I felt sad for Neymar when he was kungfu-kicked out of the WC in 2014. I can empathise with football legends who fall to the dark arts like Neymar, Maradona and Zidane. But not so much for mediocre strikers trying to draw fouls and win penalties without much technical ability to dribble and shoot. I don’t really buy that. Neymar’s antics are unnecessary to protect him, win fouls etc. they rile up opponents and make referees less sympathetic given his reputation precedes him. I’m not going to condone violent play, I think it’s a huge blind spot many fans in my nation has, but as a protective mechanism these other ways of cheating don’t work. They may work as a cheating mechanism. Players and referees are human, they shouldn’t transgress but frustrations boil over. Are you more likely to be lazy in pulling out of a hard challenge if it’s against the guy that’s been rolling around and waving imaginary cards for most of the game, or the guy who isn’t? Selling a foul when you’re actually fouled is one thing. Luis Suarez’s infamous handball I had no issues with in terms of Machiavelllian acts. He got sent off, he’d miss the next game and Ghana. Or the other Hand of God, was just a cheeky gamble that paid off. There’s just something that bit more irritating about what a Neymar does, hey that may be cultural. If he didn’t do it it wouldn’t detract from him, and he’s a great player. I’d just love to watch the guy and appreciate his incredible talent, indeed he’s probably a smidge underrated/unloved precisely because of those other things. If Messi can have the career he’s had when he’s 5 foot nothing with largely just getting fouled and getting up, anyone else can. I think south americans do have more of a history trying to "manipulate" the referee for cards and fouls, be with the use of dives or just pressuring him on the field. But I do find it weird when people have more of a problem with a player diving (it's bad, obviously) than with a team taking turns fouling the player to take him out. Neymar was fouled 9 times against Serbia (it was the most any player was fouled in a match in world cup history). But I see more people making fun of him and saying he was diving the whole game than talking about the number of fouls and how Serbia tackled him. Both are bad and should be penalized, but I do find it worse trying to take a player out of the game by injuring him (which could even end his carrer) than by making him get a card. And it's not only europeans that criticize Neymar's diving. I follow a lot of forums and pages from all of the world. And Brazil is (by far) the place with the most people criticizing him. Here, people either love or hate him, basically. I saw A LOT of posts making fun and celebrating that he was injured.
I think you're mistaking cause and effect here. It's no coincidence that the players that complain about getting fouled the most are also the most manipulative and dive happy.
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On November 27 2022 23:29 Rookie6 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2022 23:11 WombaT wrote:On November 27 2022 22:04 RKC wrote:
Thanks for the insights, Drone and Wombat.
My own feelings on Neymar and sneaky players like him is mixed. I dislike their theatrics, diving, play-acting. But they often come from the streets and local leagues where defenders can be rather violent and cynical. So their cheating is a way to compensate for the lack of protection that they get from referees. Of course, maybe there's some chicken-and-egg going on - the cheaters tend to get fouled more.
Between diving and violent play, the first is the lesser evil. That's why I felt sad for Neymar when he was kungfu-kicked out of the WC in 2014. I can empathise with football legends who fall to the dark arts like Neymar, Maradona and Zidane. But not so much for mediocre strikers trying to draw fouls and win penalties without much technical ability to dribble and shoot. I don’t really buy that. Neymar’s antics are unnecessary to protect him, win fouls etc. they rile up opponents and make referees less sympathetic given his reputation precedes him. I’m not going to condone violent play, I think it’s a huge blind spot many fans in my nation has, but as a protective mechanism these other ways of cheating don’t work. They may work as a cheating mechanism. Players and referees are human, they shouldn’t transgress but frustrations boil over. Are you more likely to be lazy in pulling out of a hard challenge if it’s against the guy that’s been rolling around and waving imaginary cards for most of the game, or the guy who isn’t? Selling a foul when you’re actually fouled is one thing. Luis Suarez’s infamous handball I had no issues with in terms of Machiavelllian acts. He got sent off, he’d miss the next game and Ghana. Or the other Hand of God, was just a cheeky gamble that paid off. There’s just something that bit more irritating about what a Neymar does, hey that may be cultural. If he didn’t do it it wouldn’t detract from him, and he’s a great player. I’d just love to watch the guy and appreciate his incredible talent, indeed he’s probably a smidge underrated/unloved precisely because of those other things. If Messi can have the career he’s had when he’s 5 foot nothing with largely just getting fouled and getting up, anyone else can. I think south americans do have more of a history trying to "manipulate" the referee for cards and fouls, be with the use of dives or just pressuring him on the field. But I do find it weird when people have more of a problem with a player diving (it's bad, obviously) than with a team taking turns fouling the player to take him out. Neymar was fouled 9 times against Serbia (it was the most any player was fouled in a match in world cup history). But I see more people making fun of him and saying he was diving the whole game than talking about the number of fouls and how Serbia tackled him. Both are bad and should be penalized, but I do find it worse trying to take a player out of the game by injuring him (which could even end his carrer) than by making him get a card. And it's not only europeans that criticize Neymar's diving. I follow a lot of forums and pages from all of the world. And Brazil is (by far) the place with the most people criticizing him. Here, people either love or hate him, basically. I saw A LOT of posts making fun and celebrating that he was injured.
Yes, this is what I'm getting at. Both serial violent tacklers and diver are the sinners. But oddly only the diver gets most of the vilification.
I can still remember the name of the Colombian who took out Neymar in 2014 - Zuniga. Besides that potentially career-ending Kung-fu kick, I've never ever heard anything notable about him. Players like Zuniga deserves a place in the Hall of Shame.
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Morocco TWO - 0 Belgium...
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On November 27 2022 23:42 Mikau313 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2022 23:29 Rookie6 wrote:On November 27 2022 23:11 WombaT wrote:On November 27 2022 22:04 RKC wrote:
Thanks for the insights, Drone and Wombat.
My own feelings on Neymar and sneaky players like him is mixed. I dislike their theatrics, diving, play-acting. But they often come from the streets and local leagues where defenders can be rather violent and cynical. So their cheating is a way to compensate for the lack of protection that they get from referees. Of course, maybe there's some chicken-and-egg going on - the cheaters tend to get fouled more.
Between diving and violent play, the first is the lesser evil. That's why I felt sad for Neymar when he was kungfu-kicked out of the WC in 2014. I can empathise with football legends who fall to the dark arts like Neymar, Maradona and Zidane. But not so much for mediocre strikers trying to draw fouls and win penalties without much technical ability to dribble and shoot. I don’t really buy that. Neymar’s antics are unnecessary to protect him, win fouls etc. they rile up opponents and make referees less sympathetic given his reputation precedes him. I’m not going to condone violent play, I think it’s a huge blind spot many fans in my nation has, but as a protective mechanism these other ways of cheating don’t work. They may work as a cheating mechanism. Players and referees are human, they shouldn’t transgress but frustrations boil over. Are you more likely to be lazy in pulling out of a hard challenge if it’s against the guy that’s been rolling around and waving imaginary cards for most of the game, or the guy who isn’t? Selling a foul when you’re actually fouled is one thing. Luis Suarez’s infamous handball I had no issues with in terms of Machiavelllian acts. He got sent off, he’d miss the next game and Ghana. Or the other Hand of God, was just a cheeky gamble that paid off. There’s just something that bit more irritating about what a Neymar does, hey that may be cultural. If he didn’t do it it wouldn’t detract from him, and he’s a great player. I’d just love to watch the guy and appreciate his incredible talent, indeed he’s probably a smidge underrated/unloved precisely because of those other things. If Messi can have the career he’s had when he’s 5 foot nothing with largely just getting fouled and getting up, anyone else can. I think south americans do have more of a history trying to "manipulate" the referee for cards and fouls, be with the use of dives or just pressuring him on the field. But I do find it weird when people have more of a problem with a player diving (it's bad, obviously) than with a team taking turns fouling the player to take him out. Neymar was fouled 9 times against Serbia (it was the most any player was fouled in a match in world cup history). But I see more people making fun of him and saying he was diving the whole game than talking about the number of fouls and how Serbia tackled him. Both are bad and should be penalized, but I do find it worse trying to take a player out of the game by injuring him (which could even end his carrer) than by making him get a card. And it's not only europeans that criticize Neymar's diving. I follow a lot of forums and pages from all of the world. And Brazil is (by far) the place with the most people criticizing him. Here, people either love or hate him, basically. I saw A LOT of posts making fun and celebrating that he was injured. I think you're mistaking cause and effect here. It's no coincidence that the players that complain about getting fouled the most are also the most manipulative and dive happy.
If you get fouled A LOT, you also will complain more with the referee. It goes both ways.
And it was not my argument. Neymar wasn't the guy who complained the most. He was the guy who was fouled the most. It's a fact about that match. And there wasn't a time in the match where he simulated an inexistent foul.
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The low lands not performing well at the moment 
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Morocco wins. Belgium in chaos it appears.
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On November 27 2022 23:37 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2022 23:11 WombaT wrote:On November 27 2022 22:04 RKC wrote:
Thanks for the insights, Drone and Wombat.
My own feelings on Neymar and sneaky players like him is mixed. I dislike their theatrics, diving, play-acting. But they often come from the streets and local leagues where defenders can be rather violent and cynical. So their cheating is a way to compensate for the lack of protection that they get from referees. Of course, maybe there's some chicken-and-egg going on - the cheaters tend to get fouled more.
Between diving and violent play, the first is the lesser evil. That's why I felt sad for Neymar when he was kungfu-kicked out of the WC in 2014. I can empathise with football legends who fall to the dark arts like Neymar, Maradona and Zidane. But not so much for mediocre strikers trying to draw fouls and win penalties without much technical ability to dribble and shoot. I don’t really buy that. Neymar’s antics are unnecessary to protect him, win fouls etc. they rile up opponents and make referees less sympathetic given his reputation precedes him. I’m not going to condone violent play, I think it’s a huge blind spot many fans in my nation has, but as a protective mechanism these other ways of cheating don’t work. They may work as a cheating mechanism. Players and referees are human, they shouldn’t transgress but frustrations boil over. Are you more likely to be lazy in pulling out of a hard challenge if it’s against the guy that’s been rolling around and waving imaginary cards for most of the game, or the guy who isn’t? Selling a foul when you’re actually fouled is one thing. Luis Suarez’s infamous handball I had no issues with in terms of Machiavelllian acts. He got sent off, he’d miss the next game and Ghana. Or the other Hand of God, was just a cheeky gamble that paid off. There’s just something that bit more irritating about what a Neymar does, hey that may be cultural. If he didn’t do it it wouldn’t detract from him, and he’s a great player. I’d just love to watch the guy and appreciate his incredible talent, indeed he’s probably a smidge underrated/unloved precisely because of those other things. If Messi can have the career he’s had when he’s 5 foot nothing with largely just getting fouled and getting up, anyone else can. Totally agreed with you. Diving is counter-productive in the long run because the player will be the boy who cried wolf in the eyes of many referees. Which is why I believe the system is self-regulating. The only other solution to cut down play-acting is to impose post-match suspension for offences not caught by the referee (which applies across the board for both play-acting and violent conduct). Please don't me wrong. I'm not a fan of Neymar (or even Ronaldo) at all. Their bad behaviour taints their legacy. Messi is the true legend in my eyes (as I've said many times before in the main football thread). Still, I just feel Neymar gets more flak than he deserves. I can think of a few other British and European footballers who are just as guilty as serial divers. Neymar just seems to get more hate than the rest.
I do not think the system is self regulating all that well. Otherwise diving would not be so widespread. I mean psg ist the best example for this. They would not constantly do it if it didn't pay off.
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The system isnt selfregulating indeed, however my subjective impression is that diving, unsportsmanlike behavior and the like have signifiantly reduced (though obvously not vanished completely) from the moment VAR was introduced.
For this reason alone, I'm a big fan of VAR.
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On November 28 2022 00:30 Mafe wrote:
The system isnt selfregulating indeed, however my subjective impression is that diving, unsportsmanlike behavior and the like have signifiantly reduced (though obvously not vanished completely) from the moment VAR was introduced.
For this reason alone, I'm a big fan of VAR.
Yes it really diminished a lot
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is awesome32278 Posts
On November 27 2022 20:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2022 12:30 RKC wrote:
I sense a lot of 'hate' against Brazil and Argentina from Europeans (or maybe just Brits - that's where I get most of my social media and football forum content). Like a news piece on Neymar's injury attracts a lot of negative comments celebrating and mocking him as 'karma' for being a showboat diver. And so on..
Maybe it's just a cultural rivalry of sorts. The stereotype of Latin American footballers being cunning cheaters (eg Suarez).
In contrast, Brazil and Argentina are widely loved by football fans in Africa and Asia. A lot of my friends see players like Messi and Neymar as heroes. They are aware of the dark side of such teams and players (including the likes of Italy and CR7). But such anti-heroes are still respected for the fun and flavour that they bring to the game.
Just an observation of mine. Not sure if it's fair and accurate. And just curious to get some views from Europeans. I remember after the Rivaldo farce, I discussed it with a brazilian friend (who used to post here). He said that in Brazil, nobody thought there was anything wrong with what he did, and he was kinda baffled that Europeans were outraged by it. Essentially, 'everything', including tricking or influencing the referee, was part of the game, so if you won because you managed to trick the referee, that was just as legit as just plain being better than the other team. I very much disagree with that attitude, and I have the impression it's more prevalent in SA / southern europe (spain, italy, portugal) than in northern europe/asia/NA. This also significantly colors who I cheer for - I can't cheer for a team if I have the impression that it's a team with an 'ingrained cheater's culture'. I mean, I do realize that diving happens in Scandinavia and with English teams too - but the frequency does differ. Diving also isn't the worst - the worst, imo, is faking injuries to get the other team carded. Excessive wasting of time and crowding of the referee also annoy me. That said - while I have the impression that Neymar is pretty unsympathetic, I think he's a fantastic football player and I enjoy watching him play, I certainly don't want him to be injured, and the same goes for the whole Brazil team. They're not the team I want to win the most, but so far, they're the team I enjoyed watching the most, because they played exceptionally well.
What you mention about your brazilian friend, as well as different flair or style of play comes from how the game was introduced and developed in different parts of the world when it wasn't as well connected.
If you like reading about football strategy but also learning a fair bit of trivia, i recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Inverting-Pyramid-History-Soccer-Tactics/dp/1568587384
On November 27 2022 21:21 WombaT wrote:
So a Nerymar, or latterly Ronaldo isn’t going to be super popular through that lens. Messi is quite unassuming and doesn’t roll around much when fouled so he gets less backlash.
I’d also say football is a broad church, from those who are very partisan and only really follow their club, to casuals who only follow international tournaments, to football nerds who love following other leagues or reading books on the game’s history.
You’ll find a lot of variation in perception based on the kind of football fan one is as well. Interesting question to ponder
I have been following the WC mostly on reddit where there are a lot of english people. While I agree with your comment, what baffles me is that they expect players to act like you mentioned, but at the same time they seem to be against referees carding more often or whistling against people grabbing each other in the box. Like some sneaky tactics are OK, but not a lot of it.
You can't have proper football if the rules don't accommodate for it.
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On November 28 2022 00:30 Mafe wrote:
The system isnt selfregulating indeed, however my subjective impression is that diving, unsportsmanlike behavior and the like have signifiantly reduced (though obvously not vanished completely) from the moment VAR was introduced.
For this reason alone, I'm a big fan of VAR.
I am a big fan of VAR in general. It just has to be used as intended.
Maybe the most egregious types of unsportsmanlike behavior have been reduced but not all. VAR does not stop you from exaggerating contacts, crowding the ref, demanding cards etc. - not even obvious dives tbh. Since those are rarely a case where the VAR acts (unless it is about a penalty).
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Damn Miller snapped at his Canadian teammates lol
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time for the game that we've been waiting for since April. The most looked-forward game perhaps of the group stage.
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On November 28 2022 03:48 don_kyuhote wrote:
time for the game that we've been waiting for since April. The most looked-forward game perhaps of the group stage.
Could potentially be the best game of the tournament
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On November 28 2022 04:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Offside lol
And quite obviously so. He started his run way to early...
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Norway28789 Posts
Intense first half - both teams making mistakes but a fair amount presumably due to good pressuring from the opposition. Basically feels like a very high quality game even though there are plenty turnovers.
People that are offside on free kicks tilt me to no end.
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Norway28789 Posts
Lol and there you had germans offside on another free kick..
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EPT
