EPTOn November 27 2022 19:40 sharkie wrote:
I hate the Japanese coach so much. How can you pla counter vs costa rica?
I hate the Japanese coach so much. How can you pla counter vs costa rica?
Maybe it has something to do with the afternoon heat
FIFA World Cup 2022 - Knockout Stage - Page 20
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LennX
4564 Posts
Maybe it has something to do with the afternoon heat | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28733 Posts
On November 27 2022 12:30 RKC wrote: I sense a lot of 'hate' against Brazil and Argentina from Europeans (or maybe just Brits - that's where I get most of my social media and football forum content). Like a news piece on Neymar's injury attracts a lot of negative comments celebrating and mocking him as 'karma' for being a showboat diver. And so on.. Maybe it's just a cultural rivalry of sorts. The stereotype of Latin American footballers being cunning cheaters (eg Suarez). In contrast, Brazil and Argentina are widely loved by football fans in Africa and Asia. A lot of my friends see players like Messi and Neymar as heroes. They are aware of the dark side of such teams and players (including the likes of Italy and CR7). But such anti-heroes are still respected for the fun and flavour that they bring to the game. Just an observation of mine. Not sure if it's fair and accurate. And just curious to get some views from Europeans. I remember after the Rivaldo farce, I discussed it with a brazilian friend (who used to post here). He said that in Brazil, nobody thought there was anything wrong with what he did, and he was kinda baffled that Europeans were outraged by it. Essentially, 'everything', including tricking or influencing the referee, was part of the game, so if you won because you managed to trick the referee, that was just as legit as just plain being better than the other team. I very much disagree with that attitude, and I have the impression it's more prevalent in SA / southern europe (spain, italy, portugal) than in northern europe/asia/NA. This also significantly colors who I cheer for - I can't cheer for a team if I have the impression that it's a team with an 'ingrained cheater's culture'. I mean, I do realize that diving happens in Scandinavia and with English teams too - but the frequency does differ. Diving also isn't the worst - the worst, imo, is faking injuries to get the other team carded. Excessive wasting of time and crowding of the referee also annoy me. That said - while I have the impression that Neymar is pretty unsympathetic, I think he's a fantastic football player and I enjoy watching him play, I certainly don't want him to be injured, and the same goes for the whole Brazil team. They're not the team I want to win the most, but so far, they're the team I enjoyed watching the most, because they played exceptionally well. | ||
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LennX
4564 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9763 Posts
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
 Not a pretty game, but well done Costa Rica. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28733 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On November 27 2022 19:56 LennX wrote: Maybe it has something to do with the afternoon heat Heat, humidity, or just that time of the day that footballers can't get into top gear. All of the 1pm local time games have been rather dreadful and wonky. I just give them all a miss and save my bandwidth for the later evening games. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 27 2022 12:30 RKC wrote: I sense a lot of 'hate' against Brazil and Argentina from Europeans (or maybe just Brits - that's where I get most of my social media and football forum content). Like a news piece on Neymar's injury attracts a lot of negative comments celebrating and mocking him as 'karma' for being a showboat diver. And so on. Maybe it's just a cultural rivalry of sorts. The stereotype of Latin American footballers being cunning cheaters (eg Suarez). In contrast, Brazil and Argentina are widely loved by football fans in Africa and Asia. A lot of my friends see players like Messi and Neymar as heroes. They are aware of the dark side of such teams and players (including the likes of Italy and CR7). But such anti-heroes are still respected for the fun and flavour that they bring to the game. Just an observation of mine. Not sure if it's fair and accurate. And just curious to get some views from Europeans. You can speak pretty damn good English, so you can get exposure to what English speakers think. Plus it’s the lingua franca so most international boards tend to be conducted that way. I’d say there are slight cultural differences. The British don’t always live up to what values they think they have, but tend to like humility and dislike sneaky cheating. Not huge fans of those if an arrogant disposition. Less of an issue for open cheating in the form of hard fouling as it’s ‘hard’, but it’s cheating nonetheless, a distinction I’ve always found odd. So a Nerymar, or latterly Ronaldo isn’t going to be super popular through that lens. Messi is quite unassuming and doesn’t roll around much when fouled so he gets less backlash. I’d also say football is a broad church, from those who are very partisan and only really follow their club, to casuals who only follow international tournaments, to football nerds who love following other leagues or reading books on the game’s history. You’ll find a lot of variation in perception based on the kind of football fan one is as well. Interesting question to ponder | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
My own feelings on Neymar and sneaky players like him is mixed. I dislike their theatrics, diving, play-acting. But they often come from the streets and local leagues where defenders can be rather violent and cynical. So their cheating is a way to compensate for the lack of protection that they get from referees. Of course, maybe there's some chicken-and-egg going on - the cheaters tend to get fouled more. Between diving and violent play, the first is the lesser evil. That's why I felt sad for Neymar when he was kungfu-kicked out of the WC in 2014. I can empathise with football legends who fall to the dark arts like Neymar, Maradona and Zidane. But not so much for mediocre strikers trying to draw fouls and win penalties without much technical ability to dribble and shoot. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18561 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8785 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 27 2022 22:04 RKC wrote: Thanks for the insights, Drone and Wombat. My own feelings on Neymar and sneaky players like him is mixed. I dislike their theatrics, diving, play-acting. But they often come from the streets and local leagues where defenders can be rather violent and cynical. So their cheating is a way to compensate for the lack of protection that they get from referees. Of course, maybe there's some chicken-and-egg going on - the cheaters tend to get fouled more. Between diving and violent play, the first is the lesser evil. That's why I felt sad for Neymar when he was kungfu-kicked out of the WC in 2014. I can empathise with football legends who fall to the dark arts like Neymar, Maradona and Zidane. But not so much for mediocre strikers trying to draw fouls and win penalties without much technical ability to dribble and shoot. I don’t really buy that. Neymar’s antics are unnecessary to protect him, win fouls etc. they rile up opponents and make referees less sympathetic given his reputation precedes him. I’m not going to condone violent play, I think it’s a huge blind spot many fans in my nation has, but as a protective mechanism these other ways of cheating don’t work. They may work as a cheating mechanism. Players and referees are human, they shouldn’t transgress but frustrations boil over. Are you more likely to be lazy in pulling out of a hard challenge if it’s against the guy that’s been rolling around and waving imaginary cards for most of the game, or the guy who isn’t? Selling a foul when you’re actually fouled is one thing. Luis Suarez’s infamous handball I had no issues with in terms of Machiavelllian acts. He got sent off, he’d miss the next game and Ghana. Or the other Hand of God, was just a cheeky gamble that paid off. There’s just something that bit more irritating about what a Neymar does, hey that may be cultural. If he didn’t do it it wouldn’t detract from him, and he’s a great player. I’d just love to watch the guy and appreciate his incredible talent, indeed he’s probably a smidge underrated/unloved precisely because of those other things. If Messi can have the career he’s had when he’s 5 foot nothing with largely just getting fouled and getting up, anyone else can. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 27 2022 22:51 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Wow Morocco just got screwed over, perfect goal from a set piece only to be ruled offside. I dunno felt correct to me. Courtois can’t see the ball all that well and he’s clearly set to deal with one of those Moroccan players who were offside getting a head on it. Think it’s fair to say they were interfering with play even if they ultimately didn’t touch the ball. | ||
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Mikau313
Netherlands230 Posts
It feels a bit silly, but this is 100% offside according to the rules. | ||
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Rookie6
Brazil583 Posts
On November 27 2022 23:11 WombaT wrote: I don’t really buy that. Neymar’s antics are unnecessary to protect him, win fouls etc. they rile up opponents and make referees less sympathetic given his reputation precedes him. I’m not going to condone violent play, I think it’s a huge blind spot many fans in my nation has, but as a protective mechanism these other ways of cheating don’t work. They may work as a cheating mechanism. Players and referees are human, they shouldn’t transgress but frustrations boil over. Are you more likely to be lazy in pulling out of a hard challenge if it’s against the guy that’s been rolling around and waving imaginary cards for most of the game, or the guy who isn’t? Selling a foul when you’re actually fouled is one thing. Luis Suarez’s infamous handball I had no issues with in terms of Machiavelllian acts. He got sent off, he’d miss the next game and Ghana. Or the other Hand of God, was just a cheeky gamble that paid off. There’s just something that bit more irritating about what a Neymar does, hey that may be cultural. If he didn’t do it it wouldn’t detract from him, and he’s a great player. I’d just love to watch the guy and appreciate his incredible talent, indeed he’s probably a smidge underrated/unloved precisely because of those other things. If Messi can have the career he’s had when he’s 5 foot nothing with largely just getting fouled and getting up, anyone else can. I think south americans do have more of a history trying to "manipulate" the referee for cards and fouls, be with the use of dives or just pressuring him on the field. But I do find it weird when people have more of a problem with a player diving (it's bad, obviously) than with a team taking turns fouling the player to take him out. Neymar was fouled 9 times against Serbia (it was the most any player was fouled in a match in world cup history). But I see more people making fun of him and saying he was diving the whole game than talking about the number of fouls and how Serbia tackled him. Both are bad and should be penalized, but I do find it worse trying to take a player out of the game by injuring him (which could even end his carrer) than by making him get a card. And it's not only europeans that criticize Neymar's diving. I follow a lot of forums and pages from all of the world. And Brazil is (by far) the place with the most people criticizing him. Here, people either love or hate him, basically. I saw A LOT of posts making fun and celebrating that he was injured. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9763 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On November 27 2022 23:11 WombaT wrote: I don’t really buy that. Neymar’s antics are unnecessary to protect him, win fouls etc. they rile up opponents and make referees less sympathetic given his reputation precedes him. I’m not going to condone violent play, I think it’s a huge blind spot many fans in my nation has, but as a protective mechanism these other ways of cheating don’t work. They may work as a cheating mechanism. Players and referees are human, they shouldn’t transgress but frustrations boil over. Are you more likely to be lazy in pulling out of a hard challenge if it’s against the guy that’s been rolling around and waving imaginary cards for most of the game, or the guy who isn’t? Selling a foul when you’re actually fouled is one thing. Luis Suarez’s infamous handball I had no issues with in terms of Machiavelllian acts. He got sent off, he’d miss the next game and Ghana. Or the other Hand of God, was just a cheeky gamble that paid off. There’s just something that bit more irritating about what a Neymar does, hey that may be cultural. If he didn’t do it it wouldn’t detract from him, and he’s a great player. I’d just love to watch the guy and appreciate his incredible talent, indeed he’s probably a smidge underrated/unloved precisely because of those other things. If Messi can have the career he’s had when he’s 5 foot nothing with largely just getting fouled and getting up, anyone else can. Totally agreed with you. Diving is counter-productive in the long run because the player will be the boy who cried wolf in the eyes of many referees. Which is why I believe the system is self-regulating. The only other solution to cut down play-acting is to impose post-match suspension for offences not caught by the referee (which applies across the board for both play-acting and violent conduct). Please don't me wrong. I'm not a fan of Neymar (or even Ronaldo) at all. Their bad behaviour taints their legacy. Messi is the true legend in my eyes (as I've said many times before in the main football thread). Still, I just feel Neymar gets more flak than he deserves. I can think of a few other British and European footballers who are just as guilty as serial divers. Neymar just seems to get more hate than the rest. | ||
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mAKiTO
Colombia4171 Posts
On November 27 2022 20:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: I remember after the Rivaldo farce, I discussed it with a brazilian friend (who used to post here). He said that in Brazil, nobody thought there was anything wrong with what he did, and he was kinda baffled that Europeans were outraged by it. Essentially, 'everything', including tricking or influencing the referee, was part of the game, so if you won because you managed to trick the referee, that was just as legit as just plain being better than the other team. I very much disagree with that attitude, and I have the impression it's more prevalent in SA / southern europe (spain, italy, portugal) than in northern europe/asia/NA. This also significantly colors who I cheer for - I can't cheer for a team if I have the impression that it's a team with an 'ingrained cheater's culture'. I mean, I do realize that diving happens in Scandinavia and with English teams too - but the frequency does differ. Diving also isn't the worst - the worst, imo, is faking injuries to get the other team carded. Excessive wasting of time and crowding of the referee also annoy me. That said - while I have the impression that Neymar is pretty unsympathetic, I think he's a fantastic football player and I enjoy watching him play, I certainly don't want him to be injured, and the same goes for the whole Brazil team. They're not the team I want to win the most, but so far, they're the team I enjoyed watching the most, because they played exceptionally well. We also had a big disccussion about it here when the suarez hand ball vs ghana | ||
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