EPTOn June 04 2017 04:06 Acrofales wrote:
Agreed. He's one of the most civil posters in the thread.
Agreed. He's one of the most civil posters in the thread.
Nothing actionable yes, one of the most civil, no way in hell.
US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 62
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GreenHorizons
United States23010 Posts
Nothing actionable yes, one of the most civil, no way in hell. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/383301-us-politics-mega-thread?page=7757#155136 and on danglars; I call trolling actionable. and what he does I consider to be trolling at times, as one cannot have discussion if people invoke fallacies left and rgiht, get proven wrong, then just come back later makign the same points that were already disproven without ever having addressed the counterargument. (I do call things trolling fairly readily, my preferred standards are quite high) the issue isn't being blatantly wrong; it's issues in argumentation quality. calling him one of the most civil posters in the thread is just absurd of course. | ||
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brian
United States9616 Posts
guess it was just one of those days. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
But I do have to say "dafaq" to your random decision to throw a derail in the thread. That was very clearly out of the norm and I'm not sure where you were going with that. There was definitely a better way to go about that. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17944 Posts
On June 06 2017 01:29 LegalLord wrote: Drone: the short explanation that I hope would suffice is that in the context of the way that post and previous posts were made, my reaction of "don't talk with certainty about things you aren't particularly familiar with" is fully justified. It went to shit quite quickly after that, unfortunately (to the point that I felt it was better to cut it off rather than push a bitch fight), but that response in and of itself was fully warranted. If you want more thorough reasoning then I could give you more later, when I'm not on my phone. But I do have to say "dafaq" to your random decision to throw a derail in the thread. That was very clearly out of the norm and I'm not sure where you were going with that. There was definitely a better way to go about that. Let me see things you claim expert on: 1. US foreign policy 2. general military things and international geopolitics 3. All things British 4. All things Russia, Ukraine and eastern Europe in general. 5. electability 6. Elon Musk's ventures and their viability 7. now general tech industry and silicon valley Given your now repeated statement that people should "not talk with certainty about things they are not particularly familiar with", I expect you to shut up on most, if not all of these topics in the future. Especially given your little spat with warding ended with a dick measuring contest in which he quite obviously had a far larger epeen than you do. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Evidently there's no real serious issue here since it's more of a personal attack than any thoughts on the issue in question. With all the maturity of a "Trump has tiny hands and tiny dick" outburst with your last comment. Real mature. | ||
mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On June 06 2017 02:14 LegalLord wrote: So, besides airing grievances and being a troll, do you have a point to make? Or are you just upset at something and venting? Evidently there's no real serious issue here since it's more of a personal attack than any thoughts on the issue in question. With all the maturity of a "Trump has tiny hands and tiny dick" outburst with your last comment. Real mature. The harsh personal attack of holding a mirror to your face? There's been multiple polls and posts calling you out in relevant threads for non-actionable trolling. Acro-s post does not exactly establish any new accusations nor does he form them in an unusually offensive manner. I personally would reflect instead of throwing a tantrum. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 06 2017 03:09 mustaju wrote: The harsh personal attack of holding a mirror to your face? There's been multiple polls and posts calling you out in relevant threads for non-actionable trolling. Acro-s post does not exactly establish any new accusations nor does he form them in an unusually offensive manner. I personally would reflect instead of throwing a tantrum. I still have a few things to work out with you specifically, and since you frequent this thread it's not a bad place to do it. When I have the time though, I'm at work right now. | ||
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brian
United States9616 Posts
On June 06 2017 01:29 LegalLord wrote: Drone: the short explanation that I hope would suffice is that in the context of the way that post and previous posts were made, my reaction of "don't talk with certainty about things you aren't particularly familiar with" is fully justified. It went to shit quite quickly after that, unfortunately (to the point that I felt it was better to cut it off rather than push a bitch fight), but that response in and of itself was fully warranted. If you want more thorough reasoning then I could give you more later, when I'm not on my phone. But I do have to say "dafaq" to your random decision to throw a derail in the thread. That was very clearly out of the norm and I'm not sure where you were going with that. There was definitely a better way to go about that. the point was you're the one who made it personal and made it go to shit. drone called you out on this. or do you think you too are impervious to being called out? cause you're not.. i mean if you're the one holding some personal shit from a previous discussion that's on you. i mean, it's understandable. but to be the one making it personal and blame the other person who clearly was not making it personal is not understandable. very weird reaction all around though | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28609 Posts
On June 06 2017 01:29 LegalLord wrote: Drone: the short explanation that I hope would suffice is that in the context of the way that post and previous posts were made, my reaction of "don't talk with certainty about things you aren't particularly familiar with" is fully justified. It went to shit quite quickly after that, unfortunately (to the point that I felt it was better to cut it off rather than push a bitch fight), but that response in and of itself was fully warranted. If you want more thorough reasoning then I could give you more later, when I'm not on my phone. But I do have to say "dafaq" to your random decision to throw a derail in the thread. That was very clearly out of the norm and I'm not sure where you were going with that. There was definitely a better way to go about that. I'm sure there were better ways to handle it. My derail was a spur of the moment decision because I thought you were being ridiculous. The way I saw it was that warding was not being a dick at all, however you kinda were, and then I saw you call him out on being a dick, and I thought it made no sense. I didn't move it here afterwards and I didn't reply any more because I didn't think it was actually that big of a deal, and it wasn't really meant as such. Wasn't really a post I gave much contemplation before posting, but frankly, my alternative would be actually issuing a warning, and as a participant, I like that type of moderation less than this type of moderation. I also thought that voicing my support for warding was warranted because I consider him a stellar poster and I want to encourage him to post more. I don't actually agree with him on politics all that much (he's certainly on the 'right' side of the european political spectrum and I'm pretty far left on the same spectrum), but his posting habits are about as good as they get. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28609 Posts
Legallord writes: I find it odd that you would single out Silicon Valley as the US's most important source of international economic power considering that Silicon Valley itself is mostly played out. Certainly, big companies came out of that region and produce high-value consumer goods, but the region itself has mostly run its course, now producing shitty companies seeking millions rather than useful ideas. More important is the general sector of high technology, including software, aircraft, rockets, and military hardware, in which the US still has a pretty solid advantage over most of the world. Those are high-revenue industries that sell valuable products, and in general that's what the US is good at. Its navy is easily the best in the world and there are only a few nations that have comparably good rocket/military technology. It's true that there used to be more "made in the USA" of worth though. warding writes: The amount of VC capital invested in the bay area is comparable to the total in europe. Meanwhile, FB, Alphabet and Apple are among the top10 most valuable companies in the world and are pouring billions into R&D in transformative technologies. To call Silicon Valley played out is ridiculous, no other region in the world has the amount of talent and capital available with a forward looking culture. legallord writes: Yup, all those other people everywhere else in the world, they just don't look far enough ahead. Silicon Valley, the one and only forward-thinking culture in the entire world. I like how the assertiveness with which you insist it is true to people who are more familiar than you about the subject matter in question. warding writes: I didn't say it was the only or the most forward looking, I said there was no other combining those three to the same extent which is undeniably true. Your second paragraph is a silly appeal to authority. You have no idea how familiar I am to the subject matter. Argue my actual points. legallord writes: Alrighty then, have you actually been to Silicon Valley? Have you worked there for any significant period of time? Or are you just repeating what you hear? legallord writes in a reply to bio But don't say I'm "throwing shade" when others come in and take a "hurr durr people who dont agree with me is dum" approach to discussing something in a country they don't live in. warding writes: Jesus LL I knew you were a cynic but didn't know you were such an ahole. How about arguing the actual points I made? Yes I've been to SV, I work in tech, own a startup and have worked on the investment side. I haven't worked in SV. Are we going to compare weener sizes next? By your own standards, will you now stop posting on the EU politics thread? Thanks in advance. legallord writes: never mind, it's not worth it, I'm done with you warding writes: Google owns search, dominates mobile and video but to legal lord this is petty, they have utterly failed to deviate from a model that rakes in uncontested billions upon billions. And what about Facebook, nobody uses Facebook anymore! How they still earn billions from Facebook ads is weird, given the first sentence. So what are millennials around the world using now? Instagram and WhatsApp? Who owns those? Oh. It's late, we can talk about Amazon another day. I'll just point out that they're from Seattle. Edit: yeah this could have been a half decent discussion about the relative importance of SV in the US-world but pretty much any discussion breaks down once you make it personal. legallord writes: Yeah, when you butt in and start being a dick before starting any discussion, don't be surprised when I'm not interested in taking you seriously. As it stands, it's clear you have no intention of doing otherwise, so I'm done here. His first reply to you argues against your points. He calls your position ridiculous, but come on, you're a big guy, certainly you can handle that. Your first reply to him misconstrues and ridicules his position (he did indeed not say that it was the only forward looking culture in the world), and then you follow up with 'I like how the assertiveness with which you insist it is true to people who are more familiar than you about the subject matter in question.', which makes it personal. His second reply to you clarifies the point about it not being the only forward looking culture in the world, followed by an entirely on-point argument that you should argue his points. Your second reply to him is completely fine, the part of the reply to bio that is geared towards warding is however you being somewhat of a dick. If you don't see how, then allow me to give a friendly suggestion that whenever you want to present someone's opinion and you do it through typing 'hurr durr fallowad by mispalled wordz', that's you being a dick. It is far from the first time. And at that point, warding replies aggressively, sure. So far, I'm actually fine with what transpired. But I then see you type 'Yeah, when you butt in and start being a dick before starting any discussion, don't be surprised when I'm not interested in taking you seriously.', that rubs me entirely the wrong way, because how I saw it, it was literally the opposite thing happening. He tried to start a discussion, and you started being a dick. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
The problem with warding, in general, that makes me really strongly disagree with your interpretation of him, is that he tends to have a sort of style in which in response to a longer, more thought out point, he has a way of replying with a "nah, that's wrong, here's how it is, end of story" post, often insisting it is so when people point out evidence to the contrary. Sort of like what's above. It didn't particularly address anything I talked about, it was mostly just a statement of his opinion with a bothersome dismissive tone. I wouldn't say that anything there was particularly unworthy of some light mockery. I get mocked much worse than what I wrote there ten times a day and I wouldn't say I get offended. It is, after all, perfectly valid to call someone out on their BS if it is justified, and nothing there was particularly aggressive. I suppose there was a nicer way to word the response to bio there, I'll give you that. That still wasn't anything particularly bad. And when he said "you don't know anything about me," it's not in the slightest aggressive to ask, "alright, tell me about yourself then." Every post after that, as you acknowledge, is quite aggressive. More aggressive than anything that was actually provoking him there. In the heat of the moment, shit happens, but that was clearly a sign that there was no more productive discussion to be had. So it was time to cut it short. Your main contention seems to be on my statement that warding started it. Would it work better for you if I wrote it as follows? Yeah, when you butt in with a low-content post and turn it into a bitch fight at the slightest provocation, don't be surprised when I'm not interested in taking you seriously. As it stands, it's clear you have no intention of doing otherwise, so I'm done here. I guess that's more strictly true, but then I wonder why you make a big deal out of a choice of wording. Even though you chose not to focus on it, I think you can at least acknowledge that the direction warding took it after being asked how close he was to SV was a step too far. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 06 2017 03:09 mustaju wrote: The harsh personal attack of holding a mirror to your face? There's been multiple polls and posts calling you out in relevant threads for non-actionable trolling. Acro-s post does not exactly establish any new accusations nor does he form them in an unusually offensive manner. I personally would reflect instead of throwing a tantrum. Now for this one. I wouldn't say we have been particularly friendly towards each other in recent posting. I will take claim to my fair share of aggressive and/or mocking posts, not necessarily without reason, but nevertheless not particularly conducive to good discussion. In truth it's not surprising given how different our political opinions are. I remember you well from the BW era and how often we disagreed then, but it goes without saying that political disagreements are going to be worse. One trait that I can say hasn't really changed, though: you have a tendency to let your passion get the better of you sometimes. In the course of the discussion, where and when that happens should be kind of clear. But it's also true in terms of taking disagreement personally, which I've always seen you do. It doesn't take much insight to figure out that someone who posts a controversial, unpopular opinion will be unpopular almost by default in the current political climate of Trump n' Friends, and that a personal attack such as the one above really isn't very constructive. And I'm sure you can realize that, even if you do get caught up in the moment. So, bottom line is this: I don't expect to agree with you much: you're (IIRC) a rather politically active Estonian, I'm a Russian of a fairly mainstream variety (just in case you didn't already know - apparently a few people were unaware). The standards for that kind of discussion are about blood feud = average, don't want to kill each other = very good. But that doesn't mean that discussion has to be impossible. I'll cut the mockery to a minimum (let's face it, it won't go away completely because that's just my style), and I'd like you to cut down on the "lives in an alternate reality" and "everything this guy does is evil" posts. It's not like we'll agree much, but I honestly think both of us could have done better on this front. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On June 06 2017 10:27 LegalLord wrote: Now for this one. I wouldn't say we have been particularly friendly towards each other in recent posting. I will take claim to my fair share of aggressive and/or mocking posts, not necessarily without reason, but nevertheless not particularly conducive to good discussion. In truth it's not surprising given how different our political opinions are. I remember you well from the BW era and how often we disagreed then, but it goes without saying that political disagreements are going to be worse. One trait that I can say hasn't really changed, though: you have a tendency to let your passion get the better of you sometimes. In the course of the discussion, where and when that happens should be kind of clear. But it's also true in terms of taking disagreement personally, which I've always seen you do. It doesn't take much insight to figure out that someone who posts a controversial, unpopular opinion will be unpopular almost by default in the current political climate of Trump n' Friends, and that a personal attack such as the one above really isn't very constructive. And I'm sure you can realize that, even if you do get caught up in the moment. So, bottom line is this: I don't expect to agree with you much: you're (IIRC) a rather politically active Estonian, I'm a Russian of a fairly mainstream variety (just in case you didn't already know - apparently a few people were unaware). The standards for that kind of discussion are about blood feud = average, don't want to kill each other = very good. But that doesn't mean that discussion has to be impossible. I'll cut the mockery to a minimum (let's face it, it won't go away completely because that's just my style), and I'd like you to cut down on the "lives in an alternate reality" and "everything this guy does is evil" posts. It's not like we'll agree much, but I honestly think both of us could have done better on this front. I'm actually confused at where you draw the line between personal criticism and personal attack. I do appreciate the conciliatory tone, however. Specifically for the *disagreeing about the fundamental nature of reality part, I don't see how you disagree with that part or consider it an insult. If one cannot establish basic facts in a conversation because of "bias" or a different ethical system (I still consider the principle of "might makes right" in politics abhorrent pretty much universally), one cannot really bridge that gap with a well laid-out argument. I do think politics discussion should be cautious with these evaluations, but they do have their place, as does the word "evil". To end on a positive note, there have been periods where your argumentation really adds to the discussion in an educational manner, and if the snark is kept in check, you should find engagement rather handily. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
That's that for now. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13818 Posts
The you should get a refund from your law school but I don't think you could win an argument line was expecially petty and harsh. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28609 Posts
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