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On June 11 2017 03:13 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2017 03:01 ChristianS wrote:
Fwiw zlefin, I think your posting is underrated. Too many people ITT are either playing creepy manipulative persuasion games or trying to score epic rhetorical takedowns against their debate opponents. For the most part you say what you think and try to be cautious and precise in your opinions, choosing the most accurate wording you can find rather than the most bombastic or persuasive.
I do think you seem to cry wolf too much on trolling and actionable posting though. It seems like you have a very different idea than everyone else of what the moderation guidelines should be, but then assume everyone is on the same page as you when you escalate to this thread, which leads people to largely ignore your complaints. In this case it was plainly over the line, but in general I think you would do well to elaborate more clearly what you think the moderation guidelines should be rather than just bringing individual examples most people think are fine and saying "this should be actionable imo."
But for the most part, don't sweat the haters You are doing both zlefin and the thread a tremendous disservice by posting this.
How do you figure?
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On June 11 2017 03:23 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2017 03:13 xDaunt wrote:On June 11 2017 03:01 ChristianS wrote:
Fwiw zlefin, I think your posting is underrated. Too many people ITT are either playing creepy manipulative persuasion games or trying to score epic rhetorical takedowns against their debate opponents. For the most part you say what you think and try to be cautious and precise in your opinions, choosing the most accurate wording you can find rather than the most bombastic or persuasive.
I do think you seem to cry wolf too much on trolling and actionable posting though. It seems like you have a very different idea than everyone else of what the moderation guidelines should be, but then assume everyone is on the same page as you when you escalate to this thread, which leads people to largely ignore your complaints. In this case it was plainly over the line, but in general I think you would do well to elaborate more clearly what you think the moderation guidelines should be rather than just bringing individual examples most people think are fine and saying "this should be actionable imo."
But for the most part, don't sweat the haters You are doing both zlefin and the thread a tremendous disservice by posting this. How do you figure?
Because zlefin is a uniquely problematic poster (take a good look at Igne's post again), and excusing him or encouraging him to keep up with the status quo is not productive for anyone.
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On June 11 2017 05:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2017 03:23 ChristianS wrote:On June 11 2017 03:13 xDaunt wrote:On June 11 2017 03:01 ChristianS wrote:
Fwiw zlefin, I think your posting is underrated. Too many people ITT are either playing creepy manipulative persuasion games or trying to score epic rhetorical takedowns against their debate opponents. For the most part you say what you think and try to be cautious and precise in your opinions, choosing the most accurate wording you can find rather than the most bombastic or persuasive.
I do think you seem to cry wolf too much on trolling and actionable posting though. It seems like you have a very different idea than everyone else of what the moderation guidelines should be, but then assume everyone is on the same page as you when you escalate to this thread, which leads people to largely ignore your complaints. In this case it was plainly over the line, but in general I think you would do well to elaborate more clearly what you think the moderation guidelines should be rather than just bringing individual examples most people think are fine and saying "this should be actionable imo."
But for the most part, don't sweat the haters You are doing both zlefin and the thread a tremendous disservice by posting this. How do you figure? Because zlefin is a uniquely problematic poster (take a good look at Igne's post again), and excusing him or encouraging him to keep up with the status quo is not productive for anyone.
You mean the post where he says zlefin has a mental illness? That's pretty blatantly unacceptable posting. It's a more verbose version of "lol, you're a retard," except the guy that says "lol, you're a retard" might actually be less bad since he can argue that he doesn't mean the word "retard" to have anything to do with mental illness, and just means it as a synonym for stupid, whereas IgnE was quite explicit that he was referring to mental illness. Using mental illness as a proxy to call your opponent's argument stupid takes the already-bad ad hominem of calling them stupid and combines it with offensiveness toward those with mental illness. TL is right not to tolerate it.
I posted because people looked at IgnE's post and said "lol, but fuck zlefin tho" and decided to share that in this thread. Both sides of the aisle deciding to let him know they just don't like him. If people have a problem with zlefin's posting and they want to complain about it here, fine, but what they're doing instead is just making fun of him and hinting they think he has a mental disability. That's fucked up, and I won't be party to it.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Even the moderation staff have largely told him to stop his pseudo-reporting crusades after noting that his reports were actively harmful to moderation. Those are rightfully seen as a pain in the ass.
What you think of his posting on content is your opinion. I strongly disagree but that is definitely your opinion and I don't care too much to argue against it. But Neil is right to say that you shouldn't implicitly encourage his behavior like that.
I remember one time I called him a hypocrite for posting in a shitty style then coming here and complaining about how the moderation wasn't up to his standards. I stand by that description of him but I also have to note that zlefin definitely took it personally and started picking piss fights with me for a month or two after that.
Something along those lines is what a lot of us would say you're encouraging. Mind you, I didn't always see it this way, but that definitely is the perception that developed over time.
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If you think his posting is bad, mocking him for his posting is just about the worst thing to get him to improve. Yeah, he gets frustrated by the discussion sometimes, or holds grudges, or has trouble respecting others' perspectives. Probably my least favorite tendency of his besides over-reporting trolling and shitposting is to read someone's argument and just express his opinion about it without explaining his reasoning in any way. "Your argument is unsound" without any explanation doesn't further discussion very much.
But you guys aren't criticizing any of that, you're just making fun of the way he talks. It's basically just bullying someone because you don't like them, and now you're mad at me for trying to say anything nice or give constructive criticism.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
If you think that mocking him is unwarranted, so be it. I disagree and think that mockery has its place in proper doses. But if you don't think that something is ok, "keep on truckin, ignore the haters" is an even worse way to get a change. You basically just went and told him to keep on doing what he's doing, and Neil is right that that's not the right approach, and is on the contrary a disservice to the thread.
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On June 11 2017 06:51 ChristianS wrote:
If you think his posting is bad, mocking him for his posting is just about the worst thing to get him to improve. Yeah, he gets frustrated by the discussion sometimes, or holds grudges, or has trouble respecting others' perspectives. Probably my least favorite tendency of his besides over-reporting trolling and shitposting is to read someone's argument and just express his opinion about it without explaining his reasoning in any way. "Your argument is unsound" without any explanation doesn't further discussion very much.
But you guys aren't criticizing any of that, you're just making fun of the way he talks. It's basically just bullying someone because you don't like them, and now you're mad at me for trying to say anything nice or give constructive criticism.
He was even warned for his post --> I felt it was safe to mention my observation.
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If the haters are just making fun of how you talk, then yeah, fuck the haters. If he wants to try to improve his posting style that's great and I support that, but this shit is just to try to make him feel bad about who he is, which is fucked up.
Here's basically how this went to me - if anybody feels their contribution is being misrepresented feel free to argue how my characterization is incorrect.
IgnE: zlefin I think you're mentally handicapped and you post dumb because you're mentally handicapped (gets banned)
Intro: lol gj IgnE
Farva: yeah lol that's totally zlefin
GH: I don't agree with Intro on anything but this
LL: *mimics zlefin* hey I'm zlefin look how dumb I am
Me: zlefin people are being dicks, don't worry about them
Out of that set of responses, I'm the one shitting up the thread?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
I don't think you're shitting up the thread, I am merely saying that you are wrong to characterize things that way.
zlefin also got warned, don't forget that tidbit in the chronology of events.
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Alright, well allow me to amend my statement: when I say "don't sweat the haters" I do not intend that statement to include any mod warnings. Not being privy to the message they sent you I am unable to comment on the helpfulness of their advice, but based on my previous experiences with TL moderation I'd guess their advice is good and you should follow it.
Better?
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Vancouver14381 Posts
It doesn't count though since he claims it's victim blaming.
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On June 11 2017 07:15 ChristianS wrote:
If the haters are just making fun of how you talk, then yeah, fuck the haters. If he wants to try to improve his posting style that's great and I support that, but this shit is just to try to make him feel bad about who he is, which is fucked up.
Here's basically how this went to me - if anybody feels their contribution is being misrepresented feel free to argue how my characterization is incorrect.
IgnE: zlefin I think you're mentally handicapped and you post dumb because you're mentally handicapped (gets banned)
Intro: lol gj IgnE
Farva: yeah lol that's totally zlefin
GH: I don't agree with Intro on anything but this
LL: *mimics zlefin* hey I'm zlefin look how dumb I am
Me: zlefin people are being dicks, don't worry about them
Out of that set of responses, I'm the one shitting up the thread?
Yeah, you are. Either you are completely oblivious to the real issue, or you are willfully ignoring it. There's a reason why that list of people you posted is bipartisan. Don't think too hard on it.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Hey, it's your right to say it one way or the other. No need to hedge your opinions into meaninglessness considering none of us are under oath right now.
But I do disagree with the way you characterized zlefin originally and I think I've explained why. And given that zlefin was also actioned in that sequence I don't think it's unfair to have the slightest tinge of mockery there.
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Not sure why zlefin was warned to be honest. It is a reasonable response given the insults Igne had deliberately placed upon him. "flat affect"? Really? It's not as if Igne met him in person has he, and if anything zlefin is the opposite
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So he thinks he's the victim here and isn't reacting well to moderation. Isn't that largely consistent with my thought that people were basically bullying him? As I've made clear, zlefin totally has stuff about his posting that I think isn't great. Grudge holding, expressing opinions without explaining his reasoning, crying wolf to the mods. But people seem to think that because he talks differently and has a couple bad posting tendencies it's totally cool for them to be assholes to zlefin, culminating in someone literally telling him they think he has a mental disability and his posts should all include a warning that this poster has a mental disability. That would be fucked up even if he did in fact have a mental disability.
People being dicks to him are the ones making it easier for him to feel like the victim and ignore criticisms of his posting. If I instead tell him that I think his posts are valuable and add to the thread but I wish he'd improve in some specific ways, it's supposed to be my fault that he got defensive and didn't improve?
Frankly, I think a lot of people here don't like zlefin, not because of potentially actionable posting behavior, but just because they don't like how he talks in a sort of stilted and academic manner. But I don't want the politics thread to be Political Discussion: Wrestlemania Edition, and zlefin is one of the few posters who doesn't treat it that way. You might dislike him for that, but that's not an excuse to be an asshole.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 11 2017 08:10 ChristianS wrote:
But people seem to think that because he talks differently and has a couple bad posting tendencies it's totally cool for them to be assholes to zlefin, culminating in someone literally telling him they think he has a mental disability and his posts should all include a warning that this poster has a mental disability. That would be fucked up even if he did in fact have a mental disability.
I don't think anyone thinks that. Igne was over the line, as he almost always is when he gets into a piss fight with someone. Don't think it's unjustified to have a quick chuckle at the person who was on the receiving end of that attack though.
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On June 11 2017 08:10 ChristianS wrote:
People being dicks to him are the ones making it easier for him to feel like the victim and ignore criticisms of his posting. If I instead tell him that I think his posts are valuable and add to the thread but I wish he'd improve in some specific ways, it's supposed to be my fault that he got defensive and didn't improve?
Frankly, I think a lot of people here don't like zlefin, not because of potentially actionable posting behavior, but just because they don't like how he talks in a sort of stilted and academic manner. But I don't want the politics thread to be Political Discussion: Wrestlemania Edition, and zlefin is one of the few posters who doesn't treat it that way. You might dislike him for that, but that's not an excuse to be an asshole.
Oh, I can assure you that efforts have been made to help him improve his posting. It just isn't happening.
And I really have no idea how you arrived at the bolded conclusions above. There's literally nothing there that is accurate. I'm particularly amused by your choice of the term "academic." Did you completely miss the discussion that I had with him a couple days ago regarding whether the Supreme Court would be interested in a separation of powers case arising from Trump's firing of Comey? Zlefin's statements there were par for the course for him, and they couldn't have been further from "academic." If you really want to have fun, go look book at some of Igne's interactions with zlefin in the thread. It's pretty clear which of the two posters can be called academic.
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"Academic" hardly means he's always right or always smart. But he usually says stuff in a very qualified manner, as though he is trying very hard to be impartial and fair-minded. Of course just like when academics do it he probably still winds up being somewhat partisan and a bit blind to the other point of view of the other side, which makes the impartial-sounding tone of voice tend to piss off the people who disagree with him all the more. That said I'd probably consider him one of the less partisan posters - even when he agrees with someone overall he'll go out of his way to disagree with some small detail he thinks they got wrong, where a lot of people will sort of say "eh, he's on my side so it's cool."
Look, we clearly have very different ideas of what is and isn't an appropriate way to treat other people in the thread, but I don't do much backseat modding and I'd rather not start. Neither of us is currently being considered for mod action and you seem to think this conversation is actively harming the thread, so how about we just drop it?
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On June 11 2017 07:15 ChristianS wrote:
If the haters are just making fun of how you talk, then yeah, fuck the haters. If he wants to try to improve his posting style that's great and I support that, but this shit is just to try to make him feel bad about who he is, which is fucked up.
Here's basically how this went to me - if anybody feels their contribution is being misrepresented feel free to argue how my characterization is incorrect.
IgnE: zlefin I think you're mentally handicapped and you post dumb because you're mentally handicapped (gets banned)
Intro: lol gj IgnE
Farva: yeah lol that's totally zlefin
GH: I don't agree with Intro on anything but this
LL: *mimics zlefin* hey I'm zlefin look how dumb I am
Me: zlefin people are being dicks, don't worry about them
Out of that set of responses, I'm the one shitting up the thread?
I think you fundamentally missed IgnE's point. But I guess that's Poe's law in action. While IgnE clearly crossed the line, he wasn't seriously calling zlefin a retarded, he was making a rhetorical point about zlefin calling Trump a retard. Furthermore, he was throwing zlefins retorts about unsound reasoning straight back in his face. You can accuse IgnE of being an asshole, but not of not being rather clever about it.
And Intro, Farva, GH and LL got that point and apparently thought it was quite witty (I did), despite breaking forum rules.
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On June 11 2017 17:17 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2017 07:15 ChristianS wrote:
If the haters are just making fun of how you talk, then yeah, fuck the haters. If he wants to try to improve his posting style that's great and I support that, but this shit is just to try to make him feel bad about who he is, which is fucked up.
Here's basically how this went to me - if anybody feels their contribution is being misrepresented feel free to argue how my characterization is incorrect.
IgnE: zlefin I think you're mentally handicapped and you post dumb because you're mentally handicapped (gets banned)
Intro: lol gj IgnE
Farva: yeah lol that's totally zlefin
GH: I don't agree with Intro on anything but this
LL: *mimics zlefin* hey I'm zlefin look how dumb I am
Me: zlefin people are being dicks, don't worry about them
Out of that set of responses, I'm the one shitting up the thread? I think you fundamentally missed IgnE's point. But I guess that's Poe's law in action. While IgnE clearly crossed the line, he wasn't seriously calling zlefin a retarded, he was making a rhetorical point about zlefin calling Trump a retard. Furthermore, he was throwing zlefins retorts about unsound reasoning straight back in his face. You can accuse IgnE of being an asshole, but not of not being rather clever about it. And Intro, Farva, GH and LL got that point and apparently thought it was quite witty (I did), despite breaking forum rules.
why you gotta strawman? i didn't call trump a retard. if you're going to make a point; strawmanning the point the other guy made isn't helpful.
aside from that; i'm mostly ignoring the discussion, cuz as usual, it mostly consists of haters hating; rather than making actually sound points. also, poor behavior by a mod, for mocking someone in the appeals process.
note: I probably won't respond to your response, as i'm not looking into this thread much.
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EPT
